The Lord Ruler's Allomantic Strength

[Thor]

Eh, didn't really see a topic devoted to this and it has been sitting in my brain for a year or so, might as well go big or go home on the first post (and I have apparently made another post before, oh well)...big wall of text incoming...

I was thinking about the Lord Ruler's relative Allomantic strength (in comparison to the other Mistborn in the series) and he seems to be ridiculously stronger than any of them, even Elend (after eating the Lerasium nugget obviously.) He can soothe upwards of a hundred thousand people, casually slaps Kelsier into unconsciousness, can "deal" with every Skaa in Luthadel, controls every Koloss in the FE, can soothe/riot through Copperclouds, can "smother" Vin through her Coppercloud, and he can push on the metals inside of a person's body.

Comparisons:

Soothing 100k (without Duralumin: TLR is soothing during the entire execution scene in the first book): Breeze, who says he is one of the most powerful Allomancers in the FE (to be taken with a grain of salt; it is Breeze after all,) can only soothe 300 people at once. Unfortunately we cannot compare this to Elend; he never soothes or riots any large group of people with a quantifiable amount. He does soothe ~20k Koloss but this is with Duralumin and taking control of Koloss is different than merely soothing/rioting humans (we also never observe TLR soothing/rioting to take control of Koloss.)

Slapping Kelsier: While this may be attributed to Feruchemical Pewter, TLR does not bulk up while slapping Kelsier (as opposed to Sazed during the fight for Luthadel, who becomes so muscular he is nearly as large as a Koloss), and he is described during the fight with Vin and Marsh as being "well-muscled" but not freakishly muscled, as one would expect with ridiculous amounts of Strength being tapped from a metalmind (I take this as meaning that TLR looks very fit, like a professional athlete in a strength-based sport, American Football, Rugby, etc., but not on the order of an Arnold Schwarzenegger bodybuilder) It is also interesting to note that Kelsier is, presumably, also burning pewter during this time.

"Dealing" with the Skaa population of Luthadel: When told that the entire city of Luthadel (population est. 1 million or so), he tells Tevidian that after the current situation, he will "deal with it." Vin also feels that TLR could slaughter the entire population, because he would never tire. TLR also states that he has dealt with uprisings before and defeated armies on his own (these statements should be taken with skepticism, as TLR is known for tooting his horn.) This can also be attributed to the combination of his Feruchemical and Allomantic abilities (ridiculous healing factor, superstrength from multiple sources, tirelessness, precognition, superspeed are only part of the abilities that could be brought to bear by TLR in an extended fight.)

Controls Every Koloss in the FE: As there are no (reported) Koloss attacks on civilizations (that weren't ordered by TLR himself) we can assume that the entire Koloss population in the FE is controlled by TLR. The total number of Koloss in the FE is unknown before TLRs death, however, it is probably safe to assume it is at least 100k, if not more (Elend has an army of ~40k Koloss during HoA, with many other bands marching around controlled by Inquisitors and Ruin; the final battle suggests that there are close to a million Koloss attacking the Pits of Hathsin and other, smaller but of a similar size, groups attacking Fadrex and other outlying cities.) Elend feels that he cannot reliably control the 40k Koloss in the army (may be attributed to Elend's unfamiliarity with Koloss and Allomancy in general, so this point is one of the weaker ones.)

Can Soothe/Riot Through Copperclouds and "Smother" Through Copperclouds: During the execution scenes and any time the Crew is near Kredik Shaw, Vin notices that she can easily feel TLRs Soothing through her Coppercloud. (without Duralumin), and even with Kelsier and her Rioting the other members of the crew, they can still feel his soothing. When she attacks TLR in his throne room in Kredik Shaw, he needs only flare his brass to punch through her Coppercloud. and create a feeling of despair/nothingness similar to the effect a Duralumined Soothing has on Straff Venture (with no Coppercloud.)

Can Push on Metals Inside of a Person's Body: During the fight with Marsh and Vin, TLR slams Vin into the wall of the throne room by pushing on the Allomantic beads inside of her, and possibly the naturally occurring metals in her body (depending on how you interpret Vin's thoughts). Even with Duralumin, Vin cannot pull on metals inside of another person (I believe she tries it on an Inquisitor in HoA) and she needs the literal power of Preservation (the mists) to pull out the bracers of TLR and spikes out of Marsh/other Inquisitors.

From looking at the above examples, even if one throws out a few examples (some do not have very good supporting points), TLR seems to be ridiculously strong at Allomancy. As such, we need to figure out how he does this (because we are inquisitive types.) A few situations, in order of their possibility (IMHO) are listed below:

TLR is using Hemalurgy to increase his Allomantic strength: Incredibly unlikely, if not impossible, as Vin/Marsh/Sazed did not find any Hemalurgic spikes in TLR after he died (it would almost certainly been mentioned if they had found any spikes.) While the Atium bracers he used were Hemalurgical in design, we do not know what power/ability Atium spikes steal, so we cannot, with a respectable amount of skepticism, assume that the bracers increased his Allomantic power.

TLR is NOT stronger than any other Lerasium Mistborn: Almost certainly untrue, as Elend Venture doesn't show the ridiculous power that TLR has, mainly Soothing/Rioting numbers. Unfortunately, we do not see enough of TLR or Elend's true strength to make a proper comparison, but the sheer amount of people that TLR can Soothe/Riot suggests otherwise.

TLR is fueling his Allomantic powers with Feruchemy (the opposite of the Atium Immortality Trick): Unlikely, as the big thing with the AIT is that the burning of a Feruchemical battery creates the expected Allomantic response (DISCLAIMER: We never "see" the effects of burning a Feruchemical battery during the novels, but I believe this to be the case, as the sense of "a power that is just out of reach" is the same for both a Feruchemist attempting to use another Feruchemist's battery and an Allomancer burning a Feruchemical battery), but an exponential return on the Feruchemical Attribute that was stored in the battery. However, we do not have a complete knowledge of the relationship between Feruchemy and Allomancy so this could be the case.

TLR gained his super Allomantic strength by possessing (and using) the Power of The Well of Ascension: Likely. The "and using" part of the description is especially important, otherwise Vin would have experienced an extreme power boost after holding, and then releasing, the Power at the WoA. This is a very possible explanation for his power level, since the use of the Power would certainly increase one's connection to Preservation (which is, I believe, to be explicitly stated as the measure of one's Allomantic strength, which is how a Lerasium nugget grants a person the powers of a Mistborn.) However, the Power, and expanded conscious, which comes from holding the Power decreases over time, perhaps to the point where it disappears completely (this is the only flaw, that I can see, in this idea; it can be "overcome" by stating that the connection to Preservation remains, just the Power of Creation disperses over time.)

TLR ingested multiple beads of Lerasium at once, theoretically multiplying his Allomantic strength: Likely. The current "exact" count of Lerasium beads is 11 (or 12) (1 for Elend, 9/10 for the "original ten Allomancers," and 1 for TLR. The 9/10 is dependent on whether or not one counts TLR as one of the "original ten Allomancers": If he is, then there are 10 beads for the "ten," 1 for TLR and 9 for the others. If he isn't a member, then there are 10 beads for the "ten" and one more for TLR.) This number can be increased to 12(13) if it is assumed that Hoid took a bead during the events of WoA (the thread for this idea is on here somewhere...) This leaves, if we assume a total of 16 beads (makes sense, no?), anywhere between 5 and 3 unaccounted beads. If TLR ate these extras, it could be an explanation for his increased Allomantic strength. (This is the single idea that I like the most)

Any of the above together: I find this most likely with the previous two ideas: multiple Lerasium beads and any leftover connection from the WoA would fit together nicely. The other ideas aren't supported well enough to be taken alone, let alone together.

Any other ideas, comments, etc?

And this is only the beginning, if I can get myself to post (at all)...

Edited October 14, 2011 by Thor

[Cuaiir]

Also a possibility is that he was a Savant of the various metals. He is known to burn most of these metals near-constantly, and like what happened to Spook, his abilities with them likely increased many-fold over the millennium he was actively practicing Allomancy. In HoA, the epigraphs say that many Soothers and Rioters unknowingly become savants of their metal, and increase their abilities by doing so.

The combination of AIT and constant flaring of those metals probably increased his abilities to a point beyond even what Spook could do with his tin when he was a savant.

[Thor]

Also a possibility is that he was a Savant of the various metals. He is known to burn most of these metals near-constantly, and like what happened to Spook, his abilities with them likely increased many-fold over the millennium he was actively practicing Allomancy. In HoA, the epigraphs say that many Soothers and Rioters unknowingly become savants of their metal, and increase their abilities by doing so.

The combination of AIT and constant flaring of those metals probably increased his abilities to a point beyond even what Spook could do with his tin when he was a savant.

Very, very possible. Probably the most likely out of the ideas (either more likely or tied with the extra beads of Lerasium/WoA theories.) Though he doesn't seem to sport the adverse effects that are normally (as far as we know...we have really only seen one Savant) associated with Savants...I suppose this could be due to being a Savant of every single (common) metal: Spook was less light/noise/touch sensitive after he was spiked with pewter...sigh, I even had this idea (or at least part of it) in my head, but threw it out because of the adverse consequences that Savants experience...

It is also possible that TLR didn't/doesn't need to flare his metals at all (or very rarely; he appears to flare his metals only a handful of time in TFE) making it unlikely for him to be a Savant (since, if I recall correctly, becoming a savant requires constant overflaring.) However, we know almost nothing about his life, especially the few hundred years post-ascension, and he might have been constantly flaring his metals during the years where he conquered most of the world, as no one could have know about an Allomancer becoming a Savant.

[Zas678]

For Hemalurgy, don't forget that Vin was a Hemalurgist and her only spike was through her ear. There's more than one bind point for Spikes to give powers. It seems likely to me that TLR had some small spikes to augment his abilities. Don't forget that Ruin was talking to him a ton throughout his life, which seems to imply Hemalurgy.

It also could be that some of it is show. I wouldn't be surprised if TLR had Soothers hidden in the crowd to help strengthen his own Soothing.

[CrazyRioter]

the atium bracers were also spikes. Brandon said so.

and I believe it was implied that TLR got his allomantic strength from the WoA somehow. And yeah, he may well have been a savant in a number of metals.

[Thor]

For Hemalurgy' date=' don't forget that Vin was a Hemalurgist and her only spike was through her ear. There's more than one bind point for Spikes to give powers. It seems likely to me that TLR had some small spikes to augment his abilities. Don't forget that Ruin was talking to him a ton throughout his life, which seems to imply Hemalurgy.

It also could be that some of it is show. I wouldn't be surprised if TLR had Soothers hidden in the crowd to help strengthen his own Soothing.[/quote']

While there are other locations for bind points, any other spikes that were found on TLR would have been spoken about by the main characters, especially Marsh, as he would be the most familiar with them (of course, Ruin could be influencing him, but I don't think Ruin had a hold on Marsh for the first few months after TLR death, since he stuck around and helped Elend secure control of the Steel Ministry.) The fact that TLR didn't have any observable spikes (obviously the main characters did not see the bracers as being spikes, as they were used to the Inquisitor ones) was very surprising to Marsh and any evidence that there were spikes would have changed Sazed's evaluation of the situation during the post-fight recap.

Ruin was able to talk to Vin while she was holding the Power in the WoA, after she removed the Hemalurgic earring, which combined with the WoA granting TLR increased Allomantic strength, might allow TLR to continue to hear Ruin after the Power had been depleted. And the Atium bracers, as have been mentioned, would have allowed Ruin to talk to TLR either way.

The showboating, while quite possible, still doesn't explain the ability to pierce Copperclouds during the execution scenes, especially at the distances involved (flared Tin being required to see and recognize Tevidian), barring Duralumin or Nicrosil burning Mistings/Mistborn, which TLR had effectively caused to disappear, if they were even known to any others in the first place. Additionally, Duralumin/Nicrosil only works for very short bursts, while the Soothing is in effect through the entire execution (I believe it is on the order of several hours...not having the books with me is very hard for theory-crafting.) :/

the atium bracers were also spikes. Brandon said so.

and I believe it was implied that TLR got his allomantic strength from the WoA somehow. And yeah, he may well have been a savant in a number of metals.

I can't believe I forgot to check that... While the atium bracers were spikes, we do not know what an atium spike steals, and therefore cannot make any reasonable conjectures on what they do...I will fix the OP about that...

Edit: (fixed OP on Atium bracers)

Edited October 14, 2011 by Thor

[Zas678]

In-world they think they are only used to steal Allomantic Temporal Abilities. (See the Back of HoA). But Brandon has said that if you know how, Atium could steal any of the metals.

I may or may not find quotes for these in the morning. They'll be in here somewhere.'

EDIT-

Quote 1-

Remember that the tables--and the ars Arcanum--are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

Here's one from the annotations.

What the Inquisitor does here at theend is very important. If you've read book two recently, you may recognize thisas what Sazed did when he tapped speed at the end of that book.

The Inquisitors are gaining Feruchemicalpowers, which makes them very, very dangerous. Mixing Feruchemy and Allomancyis what made the Lord Ruler so formidable. Fortunately, it took him a long timeto figure out how to mix the powers correctly, and the Inquisitors haven't hadthe time to practice, regardless of the force controlling them.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Need to get to bed, so I won't go into detail here, but there's one thing I wanted to mention. Brandon said - and, Zas, catch me if I'm wrong on this - that TLR used Hemalurgy for the more extreme shows of power. So I'd consider the theory you label least likely to actually be most likely. Sure, the WoA could have something to do with it (I think that's how he has Allomancy at all), but Hemalurgy is probably how he did most of the big, showy things.

[happyman]

I imagine that practice is a large part of TLR's power. Elend may have been strong, but he was also inexperienced. Also, Elend didn't have the advantage of having held the power at the Well of Ascension. Even if it took a while for TLR to figure out how to combine his abilities, his memories of that time probably gave him a leg up.

[Thor]

Need to get to bed, so I won't go into detail here, but there's one thing I wanted to mention. Brandon said - and, Zas, catch me if I'm wrong on this - that TLR used Hemalurgy for the more extreme shows of power. So I'd consider the theory you label least likely to actually be most likely. Sure, the WoA could have something to do with it (I think that's how he has Allomancy at all), but Hemalurgy is probably how he did most of the big, showy things.

I believe that he did indeed say that...but if TLRs most extreme abilities came from Hemalurgy, what could they be? Immortality is just a combination of Allomancy and Feruchemy (and is one of the "signature" abilities of TLR, quite possibly the most impressive one...though a person might need enhanced Atium ability to get enough Age from the Feruchemical battery for immortality), and as Brandon says in that quote: "What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers." Extra emphasis on "any." This seems to suggest that an Atium spike could only steal one power at a time (open to interpretation; the spike could steal every power from a Mistborn, then the only power that would manifest would depend on the binding location...we just don't know enough about Hemalurgy to say that Atium can only steal, and grant, one power at a time.) Another problem with the Hemalurgy idea: in that annotation that zas quoted, we get a different version on Hemalurgy's influence on TLR: "Mixing Feruchemy and Allomancy [is] what made the Lord Ruler so formidable." So are these two quotes in opposition? or is Brandon suggesting that Hemalurgy is what allowed the Lord Ruler to combine Feruchemy and Allomancy?

That, of course, begs the question: what supernatural abilities ARE due to Hemalurgy?

Allomantic Strength: More possible than I originally thought, but see above.

Immortality: Unsure if this is possible by a combination Mistborn(or Seer)/Feruchemist(or Atium Feruchemist) or if it requires a Hemalurgic spike to get the necessary power...

Compass Points to Luthadel: In the annotations, Brandon states that this is due to the WoA, not TLR. (This isn't very amazing but Brandon did include it as a "Power" attributed to TLR by the Ministry.)

Feruchemy: Was a Feruchemist prior to his ascension; may have been enhanced by Hemalurgy?

Koloss Control: Any powerful Mistborn/Misting (or group of weaker MB/MT) can do this... (Another "Power" ascribed to TLR by the Ministry.)

Any other "unique" powers/abilities?

Another idea just came to mind: suppose a Feruchemist could not become an Allomancer by eating a Lerasium bead and the WoA does not grant Allomantic powers... That would support the idea that Hemalurgy is what allowed TLR to combine Feruchemy and Allomancy... This also gives the unfortunate implication that TLR had someone eat a Lerasium bead, then killed him with the Atium bracers to steal the unfortunate persons newfound Allomantic powers...if this is what happened, I smell something that rhymes with bruin...

[Chaos]

Um, guys, why are we assuming the Well of Ascension increases Allomantic power? The only quote I can find related to this is "It [the Well] was always meant, I believe, to be something of an attuning force." But when looked at in context, it doesn't seem like Sazed is referring to Allomancy at all:

Nobody else could draw upon the mists. I have determined this. Why were they open to Vin and not others? I suspect that she couldn't have taken them all in until after she'd touched the power at the Well of Ascension. It was always meant, I believe, to be something of an attuning force. Something that, once touched, would adjust a person's body to be able to accept the mists.

(That's from the HoA epilogue epigraph.)

I mean, feel free to correct me if there is a quote that directly suggests a link to the Well. But, as intuitive as it seems that "Oh, of course, the Well is of Preservation, so it increases your Allomancy" there really isn't much indication that is the case. Vin noted she was considerably weaker than Elend, on a purely power level.

Yes, holding the power made Vin a Sliver, but don't you think Vin would have noticed if she suddenly became more powerful Allomantically? Any effect the Well has on Allomantic power is minimal. If the Well had any considerable effect on Allomancy, we should see it in Vin moreso than the Lord Ruler, since Vin's pure power is much less than the Lord Ruler's. Assuming that holding the Well has any effect, and that it increases your Allomantic power by a constant, the ratio of Well Effect/Vin's power would be greater than the Well Effect/the Lord Ruler's power. We don't see it in Vin, so it's probably negligible in the Lord Ruler.

The "and using" part of the description is especially important, otherwise Vin would have experienced an extreme power boost after holding, and then releasing, the Power at the WoA.

You make a valid point there, but in cosmere terminology, they are both considered Slivers. Perhaps the Lord Ruler was a "stronger" Sliver, but I don't think it has much effect compared to being a lerasium-Mistborn.

Well of Ascension aside, the Lord Ruler is obviously a brass savant due to all his Soothing. It didn't take Spook long to become a tin savant, so if the Lord Ruler had been constantly Soothing for a decade, he's already more of a savant than Spook ever was. He's been doing that for centuries.

I wonder if you continue to flare your metals, you actually get stronger as a savant over time. If so, the Lord Ruler is easily the most powerful Soother the world has ever seen, or ever will.

Being a savant in a mental metal probably has more subtle side effects as a physical metal. I wouldn't be surprised if the Lord Ruler was a savant in bronze and copper, too.

Now to comb through this thread more thoroughly.

Soothing 100k (without Duralumin: TLR is soothing during the entire execution scene in the first book): Breeze, who says he is one of the most powerful Allomancers in the FE (to be taken with a grain of salt; it is Breeze after all,) can only soothe 300 people at once. Unfortunately we cannot compare this to Elend; he never soothes or riots any large group of people with a quantifiable amount. He does soothe ~20k Koloss but this is with Duralumin and taking control of Koloss is different than merely soothing/rioting humans (we also never observe TLR soothing/rioting to take control of Koloss.)

I'm fairly sure his lerasium-Mistborn status, as well as brass savant, easily describes the Lord Ruler's strength in this area. He might have a Hemalurgic spike to enhance it further, perhaps a spike he got in the early days of the Final Empire, when Allomancers were stronger.

Slapping Kelsier: While this may be attributed to Feruchemical Pewter, TLR does not bulk up while slapping Kelsier (as opposed to Sazed during the fight for Luthadel, who becomes so muscular he is nearly as large as a Koloss), and he is described during the fight with Vin and Marsh as being "well-muscled" but not freakishly muscled, as one would expect with ridiculous amounts of Strength being tapped from a metalmind (I take this as meaning that TLR looks very fit, like a professional athlete in a strength-based sport, American Football, Rugby, etc., but not on the order of an Arnold Schwarzenegger bodybuilder) It is also interesting to note that Kelsier is, presumably, also burning pewter during this time.

Maybe the Lord Ruler's Feruchemy-Allomancy trick with pewter moved too fast. Or something.

In any case, Vin was kind of more focused on the fact that Kelsier just died. She wouldn't have had time to notice the Lord Ruler getting a bit buffer, I'd imagine.

"Dealing" with the Skaa population of Luthadel: When told that the entire city of Luthadel (population est. 1 million or so), he tells Tevidian that after the current situation, he will "deal with it." Vin also feels that TLR could slaughter the entire population, because he would never tire. TLR also states that he has dealt with uprisings before and defeated armies on his own (these statements should be taken with skepticism, as TLR is known for tooting his horn.) This can also be attributed to the combination of his Feruchemical and Allomantic abilities (ridiculous healing factor, superstrength from multiple sources, tirelessness, precognition, superspeed are only part of the abilities that could be brought to bear by TLR in an extended fight.)

There's also the matter that the Lord Ruler almost assuredly can control the Inquisitors like the koloss. I was persuaded of that fact over in this topic. So, honestly, I think it's perfectly within his abilities to slaughter a lot of people quickly. Can you imagine the massacre there would be if the Lord Ruler needed to directly coordinate the Inquisitors like that? I don't imagine Tevidian would have had the privilege in his lifetime such a slaughter.

Controls Every Koloss in the FE: As there are no (reported) Koloss attacks on civilizations (that weren't ordered by TLR himself) we can assume that the entire Koloss population in the FE is controlled by TLR. The total number of Koloss in the FE is unknown before TLRs death, however, it is probably safe to assume it is at least 100k, if not more (Elend has an army of ~40k Koloss during HoA, with many other bands marching around controlled by Inquisitors and Ruin; the final battle suggests that there are close to a million Koloss attacking the Pits of Hathsin and other, smaller but of a similar size, groups attacking Fadrex and other outlying cities.) Elend feels that he cannot reliably control the 40k Koloss in the army (may be attributed to Elend's unfamiliarity with Koloss and Allomancy in general, so this point is one of the weaker ones.)

100,000 seems fairly reasonable. Those million koloss were mostly created due to Ruin controlling them, after all. Those poor people in the outer dominances...

Can Soothe/Riot Through Copperclouds and "Smother" Through Copperclouds: During the execution scenes and any time the Crew is near Kredik Shaw, Vin notices that she can easily feel TLRs Soothing through her Coppercloud. (without Duralumin), and even with Kelsier and her Rioting the other members of the crew, they can still feel his soothing. When she attacks TLR in his throne room in Kredik Shaw, he needs only flare his brass to punch through her Coppercloud. and create a feeling of despair/nothingness similar to the effect a Duralumined Soothing has on Straff Venture (with no Coppercloud.)

Well, we've already discussed the Lord Ruler's extreme Soothing. But another thing: in the early days of the Final Empire, you didn't need duralumin to control a kandra. I don't care how strong Vin is; she isn't even close to being that powerful. If Mistborn began to fracture into Mistings about 300 years into the Final Empire (which I seem to recall vaguely), that still means the Lord Ruler has 300 years more unadulterated Allomantic potential than that.

Copperclouds are all a matter of strength. If you lay out multiple copperclouds, it is harder to pierce them. The effects kind of stack. So it all comes down to how strong of an Allomancer you are compared with your opponent, and the Lord Ruler has plenty more power than anything our heroes could muster.

Think about Marsh, who was a good Seeker, and made better by Hemalurgy. Let's say that Marsh got 1.95 times stronger in bronze with that Hemalurgic spike, so very minimal decay. Now Marsh has significantly more Seeking ability than anything Eleventh Century Allomancers can do with their copper. But, could Marsh break a Fifth Century Allomancer's coppercloud? I highly doubt it. That Fifth Century Allomancer has a much less diluted Allomantic ability. If you time-warped any of those older Allomancers to the last days of the Final Empire, I would wager it wouldn't be too challenging for them to break modern-day copperclouds.

Thing is, no one in the Final Empire would ever have noticed that power discrepancy, for in any given time period, your Allomancers would be roughly the same strength. You'd never notice breaking copperclouds or someone Soothing through your copperclouds, because the power levels are pretty evenly distributed. Sure, there would always be "purer" Allomancers, but I doubt you'd get a relative difference in Allomantic ability that's makes you twice as powerful as an enemy. Not unless you have Hemalurgy.

But in the current days, there is such a massive power imbalance with the Lord Ruler compared to Eleventh Century Allomancers. Even if he had never Soothed in his life, and wasn't a brass savant, it'd probably be such easy work from him to Soothe through copperclouds.

In the early days of the Final Empire, though, the Lord Ruler would have needed to augment his Allomancy through Hemalurgy to seem more godlike. Interesting. I never thought of that before.

Can Push on Metals Inside of a Person's Body: During the fight with Marsh and Vin, TLR slams Vin into the wall of the throne room by pushing on the Allomantic beads inside of her, and possibly the naturally occurring metals in her body (depending on how you interpret Vin's thoughts). Even with Duralumin, Vin cannot pull on metals inside of another person (I believe she tries it on an Inquisitor in HoA) and she needs the literal power of Preservation (the mists) to pull out the bracers of TLR and spikes out of Marsh/other Inquisitors.

Of course, regardless from my wacky relative-Allomancy discussion, lerasium-Mistborn are pretty dang powerful

Really, any of the proposed solutions you had, Thor, don't really match up, because in context, I think it's really clear that the Lord Ruler was one of those nine Allomancers:

The beads of metal found at the Well—beads that made men into Mistborn—were the reason why Allomancers used to be more powerful. Those first Mistborn were as Elend Venture became—possessing a primal power, which was then passed down through the lines of the nobility, weakening a bit with each generation.

The Lord Ruler was one of these ancient Allomancers, his power pure and unadulterated by time and breeding. That is part of why he was so mighty compared to other Mistborn—though, admittedly, his ability to mix Feruchemy and Allomancy was what produced many of his most spectacular abilities. Still, it is interesting to me that one of his "divine" powers—his essential Allomantic strength—was something every one of the original nine Allomancers possessed.

So, his essential Allomantic strength is the same as all the original Allomancers possessed. That pretty much covers it. He's most certainly a brass savant, perhaps in other metals, too, and Brandon said that he has Hemalurgy somewhere:

Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead.

1) In an annotation from book 1, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all 3 magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? ( a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy).

1) He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier.

And now I see the quote where the atium bracers are his spikes:

4) Did the Lord Ruler have any Hemalurgic spikes in him? It would seem he'd need to for Ruin to influence him, but it wasn't mentioned. Or did his bracers work as spikes?

4) His arm bracers, which pierced his skin, were his spikes.

Now, as for what power the atium spikes granted, that's another story. We know that atium can steal any power, but it was the Ministry which conducted Hemalurgic experiments where they determined that it steals Allomantic Temporal powers (which Zas quoted above). I wonder if the Lord Ruler knew the truth about that or not.

[CrazyRioter]

I'm going to suggest that he did know, and one of those bracers was enhancing his use of gold Feruchemy, we've been told he used Hemalurgy to pull off his most spectacular tricks and his rapid healing from serious injuries was certainly impressive.

the other would be enhancing his age trick.

[Chaos]

I'm going to suggest that he did know, and one of those bracers was enhancing his use of gold Feruchemy, we've been told he used Hemalurgy to pull off his most spectacular tricks and his rapid healing from serious injuries was certainly impressive.

the other would be enhancing his age trick.

I don't think he would need Hemalurgy to strengthen his Feruchemical gold or youth. I'd think Allomancy-Feruchemy is more than sufficient to describe both of those effects, right?

[CrazyRioter]

I'm just going with what Brandon said and trying to think what his most impressive abilities were and that's what I came up with. And I note that we've not seen anybody else use Allomancy and Feruchemy together in the way TLR did (the Inquisitors in HoA could have done it but didn't have the experience and anyway they were getting most of the powers from spikes, and the allomantic spikes were from reduced-power Allomancers}, so we really have no way to gauge what could be accomplished with a pure allomancy/feruchemy combo without spikes so we don't know which of TLR's abilities were extraordinary even from a Lerasium-Mistborn/Feruchemist abusing the combinations.

[Thor]

Spoilered response to Chaos for length...it's freakin' huge!!

Um, guys, why are we assuming the Well of Ascension increases Allomantic power? The only quote I can find related to this is "It [the Well] was always meant, I believe, to be something of an attuning force." But when looked at in context, it doesn't seem like Sazed is referring to Allomancy at all:

I mean, feel free to correct me if there is a quote that directly suggests a link to the Well. But, as intuitive as it seems that "Oh, of course, the Well is of Preservation, so it increases your Allomancy" there really isn't much indication that is the case. Vin noted she was considerably weaker than Elend, on a purely power level.

Yes, holding the power made Vin a Sliver, but don't you think Vin would have noticed if she suddenly became more powerful Allomantically? Any effect the Well has on Allomantic power is minimal. If the Well had any considerable effect on Allomancy, we should see it in Vin moreso than the Lord Ruler, since Vin's pure power is much less than the Lord Ruler's. Assuming that holding the Well has any effect, and that it increases your Allomantic power by a constant, the ratio of Well Effect/Vin's power would be greater than the Well Effect/the Lord Ruler's power. We don't see it in Vin, so it's probably negligible in the Lord Ruler.

You make a valid point there, but in cosmere terminology, they are both considered Slivers. Perhaps the Lord Ruler was a "stronger" Sliver, but I don't think it has much effect compared to being a lerasium-Mistborn.

The main reason why I added the WoA increasing Allomantic powers was for completeness sake; it is just an idea that has, at least superficial, merits. (You've deconstructed those fairly well.) While Vin was holding the power, she technically WAS more powerful Allomantically, but it didn't last after she gave up the power. TLR may have kept some ability (though I'm not a big fan of this idea). As for both being Slivers, Vin didn't actually do anything with the power, merely the fact that she held it makes her a Sliver (I would think that there is a "power scale," for lack of a better term, when dealing with Slivers; Returned and Seons are confirmed Slivers, but they don't have the potential to shift a planet's orbit, AFAWK. Whether or not this is relevant to the discussion at hand is debatable.) Also, at the time that TLR touched the power, he didn't have any Allomancy, so the hypothetical increase would be much greater (proportionally) than Vin, who had some Allomancy to begin with and then gave the power up. Good points all around.

Well of Ascension aside, the Lord Ruler is obviously a brass savant due to all his Soothing. It didn't take Spook long to become a tin savant, so if the Lord Ruler had been constantly Soothing for a decade, he's already more of a savant than Spook ever was. He's been doing that for centuries.

I wonder if you continue to flare your metals, you actually get stronger as a savant over time. If so, the Lord Ruler is easily the most powerful Soother the world has ever seen, or ever will.

Being a savant in a mental metal probably has more subtle side effects as a physical metal. I wouldn't be surprised if the Lord Ruler was a savant in bronze and copper, too.

I'm pretty sure the Savant side was already talked about. But if being a Savant over time continues to increase your strength, shouldn't it be possible for a very old Seeker, who should have been a Savant for a very long time, to be able to pierce a young Smoker's Coppercloud? I think it is probably safe to assume that TLR is of Savant level powers in every common metal, possibly Atium as well.

I'm fairly sure his lerasium-Mistborn status, as well as brass savant, easily describes the Lord Ruler's strength in this area. He might have a Hemalurgic spike to enhance it further, perhaps a spike he got in the early days of the Final Empire, when Allomancers were stronger.

Probably true...

Maybe the Lord Ruler's Feruchemy-Allomancy trick with pewter moved too fast. Or something.

In any case, Vin was kind of more focused on the fact that Kelsier just died. She wouldn't have had time to notice the Lord Ruler getting a bit buffer, I'd imagine.

Again, very possible, though if we take the fact that TLR is also a Pewter Savant, this makes more sense.

There's also the matter that the Lord Ruler almost assuredly can control the Inquisitors like the koloss. I was persuaded of that fact over in this topic. So, honestly, I think it's perfectly within his abilities to slaughter a lot of people quickly. Can you imagine the massacre there would be if the Lord Ruler needed to directly coordinate the Inquisitors like that? I don't imagine Tevidian would have had the privilege in his lifetime such a slaughter.

I think the fact that he can completely control Inquisitors is debatable (influence is almost certain, Inquisitors aren't running around killing random people), otherwise he would have taken control of Marsh during the final fight of TFE. Though I don't think that the Inquisitors by themselves would be able to kill everyone, they could run out of metals and be overwhelmed by the masses (up for debate on this point.)

100,000 seems fairly reasonable. Those million koloss were mostly created due to Ruin controlling them, after all. Those poor people in the outer dominances...

Yeah...that wouldn't be much fun...

Well, we've already discussed the Lord Ruler's extreme Soothing. But another thing: in the early days of the Final Empire, you didn't need duralumin to control a kandra. I don't care how strong Vin is; she isn't even close to being that powerful. If Mistborn began to fracture into Mistings about 300 years into the Final Empire (which I seem to recall vaguely), that still means the Lord Ruler has 300 years more unadulterated Allomantic potential than that.

Copperclouds are all a matter of strength. If you lay out multiple copperclouds, it is harder to pierce them. The effects kind of stack. So it all comes down to how strong of an Allomancer you are compared with your opponent, and the Lord Ruler has plenty more power than anything our heroes could muster.

Think about Marsh, who was a good Seeker, and made better by Hemalurgy. Let's say that Marsh got 1.95 times stronger in bronze with that Hemalurgic spike, so very minimal decay. Now Marsh has significantly more Seeking ability than anything Eleventh Century Allomancers can do with their copper. But, could Marsh break a Fifth Century Allomancer's coppercloud? I highly doubt it. That Fifth Century Allomancer has a much less diluted Allomantic ability. If you time-warped any of those older Allomancers to the last days of the Final Empire, I would wager it wouldn't be too challenging for them to break modern-day copperclouds.

Thing is, no one in the Final Empire would ever have noticed that power discrepancy, for in any given time period, your Allomancers would be roughly the same strength. You'd never notice breaking copperclouds or someone Soothing through your copperclouds, because the power levels are pretty evenly distributed. Sure, there would always be "purer" Allomancers, but I doubt you'd get a relative difference in Allomantic ability that's makes you twice as powerful as an enemy. Not unless you have Hemalurgy.

But in the current days, there is such a massive power imbalance with the Lord Ruler compared to Eleventh Century Allomancers. Even if he had never Soothed in his life, and wasn't a brass savant, it'd probably be such easy work from him to Soothe through copperclouds.

In the early days of the Final Empire, though, the Lord Ruler would have needed to augment his Allomancy through Hemalurgy to seem more godlike. Interesting. I never thought of that before.

Well said. Your final comment could be overridden by some of the other ideas that I posted; if we take the idea that TLR was only a Super Savant with Hemalurgy that started out as base Lerasium Mistborn then it is necessary. (Another fun fact from your last comment: every generation TLR would seem even more divine than the last, especially if a Savant's power increases over time. While the average Allomantic strength of the populace decreases, TLR either stays constant or increases with the Savant power creep idea, making his relative power increase ridiculously fast.)

We never get to see if Elend could pierce Copperclouds sans Duralumin or if Vin could pierce Elend's Copperclouds...that would make this discussion a lot easier.

Of course, regardless from my wacky relative-Allomancy discussion, lerasium-Mistborn are pretty dang powerful

True, but we never see if Elend could push/pull on metals inside of someone.

Really, any of the proposed solutions you had, Thor, don't really match up, because in context, I think it's really clear that the Lord Ruler was one of those nine Allomancers:

Touche. Though the fact that he was one of the original Allomancers is not what makes him so obscenely powerful (instead of a mere powerful, like Elend): it is the fact that he has lived for 1000 years (if we take the Savant idea into consideration), is a Savant in all metals (which could theoretically be done again), and may or may not have Hemalurgic spikes that increase his power.

The beads of metal found at the Well—beads that made men into Mistborn—were the reason why Allomancers used to be more powerful. Those first Mistborn were as Elend Venture became—possessing a primal power, which was then passed down through the lines of the nobility, weakening a bit with each generation.

The Lord Ruler was one of these ancient Allomancers, his power pure and unadulterated by time and breeding. That is part of why he was so mighty compared to other Mistborn—though, admittedly, his ability to mix Feruchemy and Allomancy was what produced many of his most spectacular abilities. Still, it is interesting to me that one of his "divine" powers—his essential Allomantic strength—was something every one of the original nine Allomancers possessed.[/Quote]

So, his essential Allomantic strength is the same as all the original Allomancers possessed. That pretty much covers it. He's most certainly a brass savant, perhaps in other metals, too, and Brandon said that he has Hemalurgy somewhere:

But Elend's essential Allomantic strength is, presumably, the same, but he doesn't demonstrate the same amount of power that TLR did. (This is hard to tell though. :/ We don't see Elend do much large scale Allomancy, so it is quite possible that he is indeed as strong.)

Now, as for what power the atium spikes granted, that's another story. We know that atium can steal any power, but it was the Ministry which conducted Hemalurgic experiments where they determined that it steals Allomantic Temporal powers (which Zas quoted above). I wonder if the Lord Ruler knew the truth about that or not.

They may have not found the bind points that allowed for other powers to be manifested, or just stopped trying after discovering that Atium stole Allomantic Temporal powers, as the breakthrough that allowed Inquisitors to always burn Atium would be big enough.

I don't think he would need Hemalurgy to strengthen his Feruchemical gold or youth. I'd think Allomancy-Feruchemy is more than sufficient to describe both of those effects' date=' right?[/quote']

Sadly, we have nothing to compare it to...

CrazyRioter: It is indeed a very difficult question (regarding TLRs "special abilities.") Getting a boost to his Feruchemical health would be rather interesting...it might even allow him to survive some of the things that were/are considered to be fabrications by TLR: beheadings (Breeze mentions this one I believe; I think he is joking at the time, but with SuperPewter and a ridiculous healing factor from gold, this might be survivable...), flaying, and coming out a burning building as little more than a skeleton (Pewter to sustain him until he can get out of the building and then tap massive amounts of Gold, perhaps augmented by burning a Gold metalmind?)

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

On your last point, a lot of the tales of his ridiculous healing are exaggerated, especially his injuries. He was never fully decapitated, and never reduced to a skeleton, or he would be dead, none of the Metallic Arts could save him from those.

There's some things I wish I could say, but can't. Darn spoilers.

[Chaos]

Sorry, Thor, for my long posts on the subject. This is essentially the best Mistborn topic you could have made to get me to blab forever

The main reason why I added the WoA increasing Allomantic powers was for completeness sake; it is just an idea that has, at least superficial, merits. (You've deconstructed those fairly well.) While Vin was holding the power, she technically WAS more powerful Allomantically, but it didn't last after she gave up the power. TLR may have kept some ability (though I'm not a big fan of this idea). As for both being Slivers, Vin didn't actually do anything with the power, merely the fact that she held it makes her a Sliver (I would think that there is a "power scale," for lack of a better term, when dealing with Slivers; Returned and Seons are confirmed Slivers, but they don't have the potential to shift a planet's orbit, AFAWK. Whether or not this is relevant to the discussion at hand is debatable.) Also, at the time that TLR touched the power, he didn't have any Allomancy, so the hypothetical increase would be much greater (proportionally) than Vin, who had some Allomancy to begin with and then gave the power up. Good points all around.

Actually, Returned are Splinters--or rather, their divine Breath is. Seons are thought to be Splinters, and Brandon has said we are on the right track, but hasn't outright confirmed this. The only confirmed Splinters are the divine Breath.

It's a fairly key distinction. A Sliver is a human intelligence who has held the power, and released it. A Splinter, on the other hand, is more like a substantial fragment of a Shard's power. A Splinter has never been human. They are sort of qualitative opposites.

So, what's happening with the Lord Ruler and Vin is they took up a Shard's power, and that power allowed them the ability to do Shardy things for a bit. In the process of touching the power, a residue was left in them, and that makes them a Sliver.

A person who holds a Splinter (say, a Returned) hasn't touched the purified essence of a Shard to do what the Lord Ruler did. They hold a lesser fragment, and that limits their power in some way.

We don't know much about the effects of being a Sliver, unfortunately.

I'd also argue that when Vin held the power, she wasn't actually better at Allomancy. It's just holding the power felt like Allomancy.

I'm pretty sure the Savant side was already talked about. But if being a Savant over time continues to increase your strength, shouldn't it be possible for a very old Seeker, who should have been a Savant for a very long time, to be able to pierce a young Smoker's Coppercloud? I think it is probably safe to assume that TLR is of Savant level powers in every common metal, possibly Atium as well.

Good point, about the savant-ness increasing power. I'd imagine there would be diminishing returns (if not an explicit upper bound, much like how there is an upper bound for flaring metals). We'll definitely have to discuss the mechanics of being a savant more.

I think the fact that he can completely control Inquisitors is debatable (influence is almost certain, Inquisitors aren't running around killing random people), otherwise he would have taken control of Marsh during the final fight of TFE. Though I don't think that the Inquisitors by themselves would be able to kill everyone, they could run out of metals and be overwhelmed by the masses (up for debate on this point.)

That's a very good point. In fact, as we're discussing all the Lord Ruler's powers, it seems that the Lord Ruler should have killed Vin much more easily

I was persuaded that the Lord Ruler can control Inquisitors, though. Vin tried to control Marsh, and she almost succeeded, if there wasn't that pesky dark god preventing it from happening. The Lord Ruler controls a ton of koloss, and they just have four spikes. Sazed says that Inquisitors would be much, much more susceptible to Ruin's control, and I think the same applies for taking control via Soothing. (Indeed, the Soothing technique and Ruin controlling them are mechanically the same: both are controlling them because the Hemalurgic spikes caused a flaw in them. Though Ruin obviously can do this trick in a far vaster capacity, of course.) More spikes, easier to control.

So from that standpoint, the Lord Ruler should be able to do that. Then there's this, from chapter 49's HoA epigraph:

One might ask why Ruin couldn't have used Inquisitors to release him from his prison. The answer to this is simple enough, if one understands the workings of power.

Before the Lord Ruler's death, he maintained too tight a grip on them to let Ruin control them directly. Even after the Lord Ruler's death, however, such a servant of Ruin could never have rescued him.

Emphasis mine.

Doubtless Ruin could have tried to kill the Lord Ruler at some point with an Inquisitor. Ruin, while impotent due to his prison, would have had the easiest time controlling Inquisitors. But, with the Lord Ruler's extreme Soothing abilities, I'd imagine that Ruin would have had a hard time overcoming the Lord Ruler's control. (Though if Ruin was freed, this logic doesn't apply.) And even if Ruin did get an Inquisitor, the Lord Ruler could have pulled out its lynchpin spike.

Now, as for why the Lord Ruler didn't bother to use Marsh... Let me read this again.

Okay, it's pretty clear that the Lord Ruler didn't think Vin was a threat at all. After a thousand years of people trying to kill him, he's probably densensitized from it.

It is suspicious that he didn't take control of Marsh. However, by the time he knocks out Marsh, he could have been holding Marsh in place. Marsh can heal pretty quickly, after all. Though I do concur. The Lord Ruler should have used the Inquisitors. (And he should have killed Vin immediately as Vin called him Rashek. It would've been easy.)

I don't have a good explanation for why he didn't, except that it would be rare for the Lord Ruler to actually need that kind of direct control. It's a pretty crappy explanation, but it's the best I have. Maybe he required that level of control if, in the early days, some uppity noble Mistborn tried to overthrow him. Even with the Lord Ruler's Feruchemy, their Allomancy would be fairly matched. So break out the Inquisitors and show the dude who is boss. (Control Inquisitors, like a boss!)

Well said. Your final comment could be overridden by some of the other ideas that I posted; if we take the idea that TLR was only a Super Savant with Hemalurgy that started out as base Lerasium Mistborn then it is necessary. (Another fun fact from your last comment: every generation TLR would seem even more divine than the last, especially if a Savant's power increases over time. While the average Allomantic strength of the populace decreases, TLR either stays constant or increases with the Savant power creep idea, making his relative power increase ridiculously fast.)

We never get to see if Elend could pierce Copperclouds sans Duralumin or if Vin could pierce Elend's Copperclouds...that would make this discussion a lot easier.

Indeed, I thought of that too. The Lord Ruler would certainly have had an easier time keeping things stable in this era.

And I know, right? Elend should have really tested that stuff... but unfortunately, he was fairly busy, too.

True, but we never see if Elend could push/pull on metals inside of someone.

Unfortunately. Though, then again, he doesn't even fight an enemy Mistborn. Some Inquisitors, near the beginning, but they would all have koloss. His attention could have been spent elsewhere.

Touche. Though the fact that he was one of the original Allomancers is not what makes him so obscenely powerful (instead of a mere powerful, like Elend): it is the fact that he has lived for 1000 years (if we take the Savant idea into consideration), is a Savant in all metals (which could theoretically be done again), and may or may not have Hemalurgic spikes that increase his power.

I concur.

And for Silus:

There's some things I wish I could say, but can't. Darn spoilers.

It's been really hard replying to this thread without using that ...one word.

[darniil]

Nobody else could draw upon the mists. I have determined this. Why were they open to Vin and not others? I suspect that she couldn't have taken them all in until after she'd touched the power at the Well of Ascension. It was always meant, I believe, to be something of an attuning force. Something that, once touched, would adjust a person's body to be able to accept the mists.

But Vin didn't touch the Well until the second book. Wasn't she able to draw upon the mists when she fought the Lord Ruler? (I'm still in my re-read of TFE, and I haven't gotten to that point yet, so I can't remember correctly.)

It's been really hard replying to this thread without using that ...one word.

Oh, do please tell us what that word is once the book is out.

[Chaos]

But Vin didn't touch the Well until the second book. Wasn't she able to draw upon the mists when she fought the Lord Ruler? (I'm still in my re-read of TFE, and I haven't gotten to that point yet, so I can't remember correctly.)

Oh, do please tell us what that word is once the book is out.

Yes. Sazed's next sentence mentions that, actually. He doesn't know everything.

And of course

[Thor]

On your last point, a lot of the tales of his ridiculous healing are exaggerated, especially his injuries. He was never fully decapitated, and never reduced to a skeleton, or he would be dead, none of the Metallic Arts could save him from those.

We assume they are exaggerated because of the Ministry (and TLR himself). But when you take into account the burning of a Gold Metalmind for exponential increases in healing, combined with Savant level Pewter, some of those seem more possible. I agree wholeheartedly on the decapitation though (like anyone could restrain him anyway.) I think the phrase used for the burning story was (paraphrasing...) "almost a skeleton." If he still had his brain mostly intact, the Savant-level abilities of Pewter might have been sufficient to keep him alive. Spook could run through a burning building, get horrific third-degree burns and still survive, without Pewter. (Normally the pain would have caused someone to pass out and die, but, for TLR, Pewter reduces pain...idk) Flaying sounds survivable too, though this brings up the question: "How did you manage to restrain a Savant Lerasium Mistborn, with Feruchemy?"

Sorry, Thor, for my long posts on the subject. This is essentially the best Mistborn topic you could have made to get me to blab forever

'Tis fine. I'm just glad I was able to get any responses to this. I knew I was a Soother! Psh, make Marsh blabber, I can get TLR of the Forums himself to blabber! Muwhahahaha!!

Actually, Returned are Splinters--or rather, their divine Breath is. Seons are thought to be Splinters, and Brandon has said we are on the right track, but hasn't outright confirmed this. The only confirmed Splinters are the divine Breath.

It's a fairly key distinction. A Sliver is a human intelligence who has held the power, and released it. A Splinter, on the other hand, is more like a substantial fragment of a Shard's power. A Splinter has never been human. They are sort of qualitative opposites.

So, what's happening with the Lord Ruler and Vin is they took up a Shard's power, and that power allowed them the ability to do Shardy things for a bit. In the process of touching the power, a residue was left in them, and that makes them a Sliver.

A person who holds a Splinter (say, a Returned) hasn't touched the purified essence of a Shard to do what the Lord Ruler did. They hold a lesser fragment, and that limits their power in some way.

We don't know much about the effects of being a Sliver, unfortunately.

I'd also argue that when Vin held the power, she wasn't actually better at Allomancy. It's just holding the power felt like Allomancy.

...Wow, I can't believe I forgot the difference there. *headdesk*

Good point, about the savant-ness increasing power. I'd imagine there would be diminishing returns (if not an explicit upper bound, much like how there is an upper bound for flaring metals). We'll definitely have to discuss the mechanics of being a savant more.

[math]

I think a really good way to describe this would be, depending on an upper bound or not, a math function that has an infinite limit but increases very slowly the farther it goes (a square root function is a pretty good example: fast gains at the beginning but tapering off to barely any gain the higher one goes) or a function that has a finite limit that is approached very slowly (equation would be something like y=[-1/(x+1)]+1 which has a limit of 1, but only reaches it at infinity.)

[/math]

That's a very good point. In fact, as we're discussing all the Lord Ruler's powers, it seems that the Lord Ruler should have killed Vin much more easily

I was persuaded that the Lord Ruler can control Inquisitors, though. Vin tried to control Marsh, and she almost succeeded, if there wasn't that pesky dark god preventing it from happening. The Lord Ruler controls a ton of koloss, and they just have four spikes. Sazed says that Inquisitors would be much, much more susceptible to Ruin's control, and I think the same applies for taking control via Soothing. (Indeed, the Soothing technique and Ruin controlling them are mechanically the same: both are controlling them because the Hemalurgic spikes caused a flaw in them. Though Ruin obviously can do this trick in a far vaster capacity, of course.) More spikes, easier to control.

So from that standpoint, the Lord Ruler should be able to do that. Then there's this, from chapter 49's HoA epigraph:

*snip*

Emphasis mine.

Doubtless Ruin could have tried to kill the Lord Ruler at some point with an Inquisitor. Ruin, while impotent due to his prison, would have had the easiest time controlling Inquisitors. But, with the Lord Ruler's extreme Soothing abilities, I'd imagine that Ruin would have had a hard time overcoming the Lord Ruler's control. (Though if Ruin was freed, this logic doesn't apply.) And even if Ruin did get an Inquisitor, the Lord Ruler could have pulled out its lynchpin spike.

Now, as for why the Lord Ruler didn't bother to use Marsh... Let me read this again.

Okay, it's pretty clear that the Lord Ruler didn't think Vin was a threat at all. After a thousand years of people trying to kill him, he's probably densensitized from it.

It is suspicious that he didn't take control of Marsh. However, by the time he knocks out Marsh, he could have been holding Marsh in place. Marsh can heal pretty quickly, after all. Though I do concur. The Lord Ruler should have used the Inquisitors. (And he should have killed Vin immediately as Vin called him Rashek. It would've been easy.)

I don't have a good explanation for why he didn't, except that it would be rare for the Lord Ruler to actually need that kind of direct control. It's a pretty crappy explanation, but it's the best I have. Maybe he required that level of control if, in the early days, some uppity noble Mistborn tried to overthrow him. Even with the Lord Ruler's Feruchemy, their Allomancy would be fairly matched. So break out the Inquisitors and show the dude who is boss. (Control Inquisitors, like a boss!)

EDIT: The only reason why Vin got even close to controlling Ruin-Marsh was with the pure power of Preservation: the Mists; a Duralumined-Soothing came close, but wasn't enough. That was the reason, I felt, why Ruin felt afraid; he could sense that Vin had used part of Preservation to try and take control of Marsh. The fact that she wasn't able to control Marsh with the Duralumined Soothing could be attributed to the fact that Ruin was occupying Marsh at the time, however. End EDIT

TLR should have definately finished off Vin much faster, but, as you said, he didn't see her as a threat. I think being called Rashek for the first time in ~900 years probably stunned/surprised him pretty badly. Same reason he didn't just Pull his bracers back after Vin ripped them out and shot them off of the spire...which is probably the biggest plot hole in TFE. (Unless the bracers are what gave him Allomancy...)

Good point about Marsh. Though TLR is ridiculously strong; he may have injured Marsh more than his reduced power Feruchemy could heal in a short time. In that quote it states that TLR kept too tight of a grip, which does not imply complete control (debatable, again.) I'm not sure if Ruin could have taken control of an Inquisitor while he was trapped; his cage would have probably blocked him from taking over an Inquisitor (though he could probably speak to them and influence their ideas) and TLR kept a pretty tight rein on the Inquisitors emotions, as has been mentioned (if not complete control. Just throwing in my doubts on TLRs complete control over Inquisitors.)

It's been really hard replying to this thread without using that ...one word.

Curse you (non) spoilers!!!! (Hurrah, Chaos will tell all!!)

Also, I laughed a lot to "Control Inquisitors, like a boss!" Hhahaha (Someone should totally make a "Most Interesting Man in the World" poster about controlling Hemalurgic creations: I don't usually take control of Ruin's minions, but when I do, I control Inquisitors.)

Ah, thank you for that. Edit: I searched the Annotations and couldn't find it, though I vaguely remember something similar to that statement...can someone find it? Maybe it is from the HoA thread...

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V

Edited October 19, 2011 by Thor

[CrazyRioter]

Brandon explicitly said that the stories about the beheading and being burned down to a skeleton were exaggerated. It's in the annotations, somewhere.

[ulyssessword]

An alternate explanation to him being a Lerasium Mistborn + Savant, or that Using the WoA automatically gives amazing power is that the Lord Ruler used the power in the Well to change himself to have stronger abilities than even the original Allomancers. He could easily have foreseen the need to fight to unite the world and be strong enough to survive 1000 years, and changed himself to be able to achieve his goals.

[happyman]

Good point about Marsh. Though TLR is ridiculously strong; he may have injured Marsh more than his reduced power Feruchemy could heal in a short time. In that quote it states that TLR kept too tight of a grip, which does not imply complete control (debatable, again.) I'm not sure if Ruin could have taken control of an Inquisitor while he was trapped; his cage would have probably blocked him from taking over an Inquisitor (though he could probably speak to them and influence their ideas) and TLR kept a pretty tight rein on the Inquisitors emotions, as has been mentioned (if not complete control. Just throwing in my doubts on TLRs complete control over Inquisitors.)

Given that Marsh managed to, briefly, resist Ruin's influence directly (when Ruin was trying to get him to read Spook's letter), I would say that the Lord Ruler's control of Inquisitors was strong, but also subtle. If even Ruin had to push and pull on Marsh' emotions to get him to obey, I assume TLR had to resort to essentially the same thing, but probably over a longer period of time. This means things like immediate rebellion and hidden agents would be a real, but temporary threat to him.

[Thor]

An alternate explanation to him being a Lerasium Mistborn + Savant, or that Using the WoA automatically gives amazing power is that the Lord Ruler used the power in the Well to change himself to have stronger abilities than even the original Allomancers. He could easily have foreseen the need to fight to unite the world and be strong enough to survive 1000 years, and changed himself to be able to achieve his goals.

Another very good idea. Anyone with more knowledge than I want to take a crack at this idea?

Given that Marsh managed to, briefly, resist Ruin's influence directly (when Ruin was trying to get him to read Spook's letter), I would say that the Lord Ruler's control of Inquisitors was strong, but also subtle. If even Ruin had to push and pull on Marsh' emotions to get him to obey, I assume TLR had to resort to essentially the same thing, but probably over a longer period of time. This means things like immediate rebellion and hidden agents would be a real, but temporary threat to him.

Very good point. Makes sense. Though there is something that has always bugged me about Marsh: why does Ruin give Marsh the largest number of spikes? (Assuming that makes him the most powerful Inquisitor, which is probably true.) I suppose more spikes makes it easier for Ruin to control him; Marsh seems to be one of the few (or only member of the) Inquisitors that is even mildly successful at resisting Ruin. However, that doesn't sound like something Ruin would do...he feels pretty confident that no one can break his grip, so that reason falls short.

The best answer I've been able to come up with is that Marsh was the strongest Misting (out of the Inquisitors that Ruin had; Marsh killed so many of them at the end of TFE) and there were no Mistborn Inquisitors left (getting a boost to every metal on a weak Mistborn should be stronger than a boost to every metal on a strong Misting, given what we know about Hemalurgy,) making it more likely that, as Marsh is the strongest of the Inquisitors, there aren't any Mistborn Inquisitors during the events of WoA and HoA. Also, Marsh can burn Atium, and he could be one of the few Inquisitors who can burn Atium, since he was created during TLR reign when Atium (and therefore Atium spikes) was more accessible. Being able to burn Atium would give Marsh a large boost in status over other Inquisitors, perhaps enough to warrant him gaining all of the spikes. This hypothesis, of course, only applies if Ruin follows a certain ideology: you add every increase you can to the strongest base person in a fight. This makes sense in a world with people who come close to being deific avatars fighting over the fate of the world: Vin (later Elend) and Marsh. Unfortunately this idea also seems to fall short: if the Inquisitors were used as a commando/assassin/battlefield elite force (under Ruin; they obviously served a different role under TLR), Bronze is practically worthless, since Ruin comes close to being Omniscient with regard to Allomancers (he senses a Coppercloud burning metal and sends Marsh to steal his powers during one of the Marsh chapters in HoA), making the ability to find Mistings/Mistborn under Copperclouds redundant or unnecessary. If the Inquisitors were to be used in these roles, it would make the most sense (using that ideology above), for a Mistborn-Inquisitor to be the recipient of the most spikes and, in the event that a MB could not be found/corrupted, a more combat oriented Misting would be a superior choice than Marsh, a Seeker: Pewter, Steel, Iron or even Tin would be quite powerful with the extra boosts from Allomancy and Feruchemy...

-(This deals with Chaos' theory on Allomantic strength dilution, especially with regards to Copperclouds and Seekers) Just thought of a possible reason why a Lerasium MB (specifically Elend) isn't as strong as TLR, or even an Inquisitor/Vin doubling up on Bronze: after Vin is captured, Elend leaves Fadrex and fights a group of Koloss. If he could pierce Copperclouds, he should have been able to identify that an Inquisitor (or regular MB) WAS there but left during the battle (in the annotations, Brandon says that Marsh was there directly controlling the Koloss, not Ruin.) However, Elend doesn't see/sense an Inquisitor and assumes that the Koloss were just rampaging around (I believe he later attributes this to Ruin.) As Marsh does not have a super Coppercloud (due to him not being a Smoker before his transformation, and assuming he doesn't have multiple Bronze stealing spikes (which we don't know if they stack, AFAIK),) he should be much weaker than Elend in this regard (Elend's Bronze vs Marsh's Copper), which, if Chaos' theory is correct, should allow Elend to pierce his Copperclouds. Feel free to poke holes in this...I can see a few but I don't feel like pointing them out right now.

[Zas678]

I think part of it is a Reward to Marsh for his part in Ruining the Final Empire. Think about it- with Marsh's help, the Empire of Ruin's enemy finally fell.

As to why give powers to a Seeker? Perhaps the Atium spike, which you mentioned. I also am not sure that there were any Mistborn Inquisitors. *shudders* That would be insane to have double powers though.

But there are very few Mistborn, and they are so valuable that the Nobility isn't likely to let them into the hands of the Ministry.

But truth be told, I'm not sure. Perhaps convenience. Marsh just ended up being in the right places at the right times.