Kalak_

Very far fetched trell theory

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STORMLIGHT ARCHIVE SPOILERS

 

 

so we know that era two is a few years ahead of the current stormlight archive timeline, so I’m thinking, dalinar loses the contest of champions and odium turns him into this spacefaring warlord who will conquer stuff for odium,so what if odium has sent dalinar to scadrial to conquer it , kill harmony etc and also we see that red mist sazed shows wax, and I’m thinking it looks eerily similar to the red mist seen in the thrill in oathbringer (I think it’s oathbringer at least) which is odiums investiture so what if dalinar is trell?(this is extremely far fetched Ik)

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Moved this topic to the Cosmere board, since it's discussing multiple series.


As for the topic itself... I dunno if I think Dalinar is Trell, specifically, because Harmony seems to think other Shards are moving in on Scadrial prior to the events of RoW, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's still relevant (perhaps Odium joined forces with whoever Trell is and sent aid?). Would be kinda fun and crazy to see.

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The first thing that springs to my mind that makes this unlikely is that Trell has a god metal and its description doesn't seem to match with the descriptions of the honorblades, shardblades, or Raysium knives. Your theory could still potentially be correct if Trellium is a god metal alloyed with something else or Trellinar is manifesting some sort of corrupted god metal, but there's still a layer of unlikelihood there.

I don't reject this theory on principle (especially since I've also wondered if Brandon is setting up Dalinar to lose the contest), but I don't think Trell is Dalinar.

Also worth noting on the 'red mist' point that redness can be a sign of corrupted investiture and not unique to Odium (though I imagine it might be a hint at the origin and nature of the Unmade). You see the same kind of thing with soulforging on Sel.

Edited by Cocoa
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Obligatory "the red mist isn't Trell, it's a 'crude representation' (Quote Harmony) that Harmony makes to show Wax."

plus this

6 hours ago, Cocoa said:

redness can be a sign of corrupted investiture

which is the case for the Unmade too, I think.

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The letters exchanged between Hoid and Harmony appear to be written contemporaneously with the events of the books (or near enough to them) and we know that some Shard is already trying to influence Scadrial during the period of RoW. We can reasonably assume the RoW letter was written before Todium because in that same exchange Harmony cautions Hoid about the risk of what would happen if Odium had a better-aligned Vessel, and Brandon has said that the other Shards are going to know about the change pretty quickly. Odium isn't free to meddle on Scadrial during the period of RoW because getting the freedom to do that is one of the things that he wants to get out of his bargain with Dalinar.

Also, we have this WoB that says the entity calling itself Trell and the Shard associated with the 'Trellium' spike are one and the same.

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10 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

which is the case for the Unmade too, I think.

I think Nergaoul's actually the only Unmade with an association with red so far (besides the red eyes from Yelig-nar, but I imagine that's more due to the possession, Yelig-nar itself doesn't actually look red when Venli sees it iirc), so that might just be a case of "sometimes red is just red".

But yeah, it doesn't have to be the Thrill, especially since it's just a crude representation, though it's maybe possible.

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This is not likely the case. There is a lot leaning towards it being Autonomy. But I will list the reasons it likely isn't Odium or Dalinar first. 

 

1: Trell was already encroaching on Scadrial during the events of SA

2: Harmony knows about Odium, but does not recognize what Shard Trell is/is associated with

3: We have seen Trellium and Raysium, and they are not described the same way, "Raysium is a bright golden metal, so light it is almost white", whilst  "Trellium is a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust."

 

Now for why it is likely Autonomy:

Quote

Trell is associated with one of the nine Shards that were known when trellium first appeared.[9][12] The color red has often been associated with Trell; for example, the red haze Harmony showed Waxillium Ladrian around Scadrial and the red eyes of the Set's Faceless Immortals,[6][19] but this does not narrow down the list of Shards Trell could be, since red is associated with corrupted Investiture generally, not a specific Shard.[13][27][28] Trell cannot be Preservation or Ruin, as Harmony did not know the metal;[1] it is also not Ambition, Invention, Mercy, Valor, or Whimsy, as they were unknown at the time trellium first appeared;[9] and it has been confirmed to not be Endowment.[29] It is almost certainly not Devotion, Dominion, or Honor as they are all Splintered,[30] which leaves Autonomy, Cultivation, and Odium as the remaining possibilities. Cultivation has exhibited few signs of interest in affairs beyond Roshar and it seems unlikely that she was responsible for the metal. Harmony distinctly mentions Odium in his second letter to Hoid but shares that he is worried that a Shard or Shards he cannot identify are encroaching on Scadrial,[31] suggesting that Trell is not Odium.

By process of elimination, this suggests that Trell is related to Autonomy. Direct evidence for this theory also exists. Notably, Khriss states that Autonomy often intervenes on other worlds[32] and Autonomy is known to have avatars on First of the Sun and Obrodai;[33][34] Trell may be an avatar of Autonomy manifesting on Scadrial. There is also a Daysider man named Trell on Taldain,[35] which strengthens the tie to Autonomy. The fact that Taldain is a tidally locked planet[32] and that the original Scadrian religion involving Trell, Trelagism, focused on the difference between day and night[3] may suggest the original religion had roots in Taldain; Autonomy is known to be worshiped in several religions,[36] so it seems plausible she is involved in Trelagism in some way. The metal trellium allowed Paalm to operate free from Harmony's influence,[37] a property that seems to align well with Autonomy's intent.

From Coppermind, and I personally agree with this theory. 

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8 hours ago, Zoey said:

This is not likely the case. There is a lot leaning towards it being Autonomy. But I will list the reasons it likely isn't Odium or Dalinar first. 

I will now counter them

8 hours ago, Zoey said:

1: Trell was already encroaching on Scadrial during the events of SA

Rayse had a plan for dealing with Harmony

8 hours ago, Zoey said:

2: Harmony knows about Odium, but does not recognize what Shard Trell is/is associated with

Knowing of Odium doesn't mean he can recognise Odium, especially with other forces activly trying to block his sight

8 hours ago, Zoey said:

3: We have seen Trellium and Raysium, and they are not described the same way, "Raysium is a bright golden metal, so light it is almost white", whilst  "Trellium is a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust."

Raysium, not Taravangium, and not any corrupted metals

 

While possible to be Autonomy, it is not certain

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9 hours ago, Frustration said:

I will now counter them

Rayse had a plan for dealing with Harmony

Knowing of Odium doesn't mean he can recognize Odium, especially with other forces activley trying to block his sight

Raysium, not Taravangium, and not any corrupted metals

 

While possible to be Autonomy, it is not certain

I find it doubtful he would be able to reach outside of the Rosharan system to that degree. 

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30 minutes ago, Zoey said:

I find it doubtful he would be able to reach outside of the Rosharan system to that degree. 

Using a splinter, or avatar to do stuff elsewhere is not even a stretch, we know they can be used that way.

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On 9/27/2021 at 10:22 PM, Zoey said:

This is not likely the case. There is a lot leaning towards it being Autonomy. But I will list the reasons it likely isn't Odium or Dalinar first. 

 

1: Trell was already encroaching on Scadrial during the events of SA

2: Harmony knows about Odium, but does not recognize what Shard Trell is/is associated with

3: We have seen Trellium and Raysium, and they are not described the same way, "Raysium is a bright golden metal, so light it is almost white", whilst  "Trellium is a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust."

 

Now for why it is likely Autonomy:

From Coppermind, and I personally agree with this theory. 

I have to disagree here. The fact this theory only lists 14 Shards leaves enough room for doubt, in my mind, that the entity Trell could be either of the remaining unknown Shards.

Autonomy seems far too content to remain in their own areas of the Cosmere with their Splinters. There must be additional negative, (only negative due to their isolation from Adonalsium as a whole) aspects available. While Odium immediately set about the destruction of other Shards I'll put my money on a more patience, cunning Shard. (Capital C Cunning?)

 

Regardless, Trell isn't Dalinar is my feelings on the original post.

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2 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

I have to disagree here. The fact this theory only lists 14 Shards leaves enough room for doubt, in my mind, that the entity Trell could be either of the remaining unknown Shards.

Brandon confirmend that Trell is one of the Shards we knew before RoW

Edited by Frustration
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19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Brandon confirmend that Trell is one of the Shards we knew before RoW

I've got this 

Truthwatcher_17.5

Is Trell a Shard of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that one too, I'm afraid.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

If there is a better WOB you can point to, I'd appreciate it.

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25 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

If there is a better WOB you can point to, I'd appreciate it.

Sure

Chaos

I'm sorry Brandon, you might RAFO me.

*written* For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no… You drove all this way, that's what makes me. Eric comes and he's like--

Chaos

You RAFO'd me at Words of Radiance--

Brandon Sanderson

I know.

Chaos

--I asked you a question that was too much.

Brandon Sanderson

…you push, yeah… There you are you got your answer. You got me.

*writes* Yes.

Footnote: at that time we knew 9 Shards: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment, and Autonomy
Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)
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25 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

If there is a better WOB you can point to, I'd appreciate it.

It is not a single WoB but a combination of two. First there is this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6261)

Quote

Chaos

I'm sorry Brandon, you might RAFO me.

*written* For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no… You drove all this way, that's what makes me. Eric comes and he's like--

Chaos

You RAFO'd me at Words of Radiance--

Brandon Sanderson

I know.

Chaos

--I asked you a question that was too much.

Brandon Sanderson

…you push, yeah… There you are you got your answer. You got me.

*writes* Yes.

Footnote: at that time we knew 9 Shards: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment, and Autonomy
Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

From which we know that metal from SoS is associated to one of nine shards we knew at the time. Technically this could still mean that Trell only stole a metal of some shard and used it for its own purpose. However we also have this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174/#e8554)

Quote

 

Questioner

Is the metal that Bleeder was associated with and had, is the Shard associated with that metal the same entity that's calling itself Trell?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

From which we know that metal from SoS confirms that the Shard associated with the metal is the same as (or is closely associated with) the entity Trell.

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In which case I'm very interested to see how this plays out and if we get more clarity on the true identity of Trell in The Lost Metal.

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13 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

In which case I'm very interested to see how this plays out and if we get more clarity on the true identity of Trell in The Lost Metal.

Brandon has said that we will get a lot more on Trell in Lost Metal.

Also said Whimsy is gonna get a name drop, so get a bit more on Whimsy too I hope. 

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On 9/27/2021 at 4:22 PM, Zoey said:

2: Harmony knows about Odium, but does not recognize what Shard Trell is/is associated with

Autonomy is also the only one of the Shards we know so far that Harmony does not seem to know or be likely to know.

  • Ruin and Preservation: obviously knows of these
  • Odium: obviously knows
  • Devotion and Dominion: mentioned them
  • Ambition: mentioned it
  • Endowment: mentioned it
  • Invention, Whimsy, Mercy, and Valor: we only know about these because he mentioned them
  • Honor and Cultivation: he doesn't seem to have mentioned them, but surely if Hoid's reaching out to him to ask for help on Roshar, he'd have mentioned the other Roshards, right....? right....? okay who knows, Hoid's an ass

So that leaves three Shards: Unknown Shard #1, Unknown Shard #2, and Autonomy. And only one of these is one of the nine we knew.

On 9/28/2021 at 0:36 AM, Frustration said:

Raysium, not Taravangium

We have a WoB that it's not likely to change:

Quote

Questioner

When a Shard changes hands, does the god-metal change names and/or properties?

Brandon Sanderson

It can. It doesn't as a rule.

Questioner

So it'll still be raysium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Well, the name, you would change the name, probably. But it shouldn't necessarily do anything different. The name that it's given is cultural. So you could continue to call it that. People might call it that. I think people in-world would call it something else. But depends on the person.

(Also, it would be pretty odd on a meta level imo to introduce the anti-Lights that are mostly only useful alongside raysium... and then remove raysium from the picture and make them mostly useless.)

On 9/28/2021 at 0:36 AM, Frustration said:

not any corrupted metals

The Shard associated with the metal is Trell, though:

Quote

Questioner

Is the metal that Bleeder was associated with and had, is the Shard associated with that metal the same entity that's calling itself Trell?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

On 9/28/2021 at 10:39 AM, Frustration said:

Using a splinter, or avatar to do stuff elsewhere is not even a stretch, we know they can be used that way.

Theoretically, but he's kind of been trapped on Braize for eight thousand years, how would he have made one on Scadrial in this time (or made a large enough one elsewhere and disconnected it from the planet)?

 

(Personally, my opinion on Trell is that it started as Autonomy, but after the end of Stormlight 5 has become a joint venture, because of how often freedom and passion are intertwined for followers of Trell.)

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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18 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We have a WoB that it's not likely to change:

(Also, it would be pretty odd on a meta level imo to introduce the anti-Lights that are mostly only useful alongside raysium... and then remove raysium from the picture and make them mostly useless.)

Lerasium and Atium are still around despite Harmonium existing.

19 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The Shard associated with the metal is Trell, though:

And the fused with Odium, even though they used corrupted surgebinding

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13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Lerasium and Atium are still around despite Harmonium existing.

Prior WoBs on the subject also indicate that new metal would act the same, at least for a while:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If Kelsier created a metal while holding Preservation that it would have acted the same as lerasium, though over time the properties of it might shift.

 

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And the fused with Odium, even though they used corrupted surgebinding

I think this is something of a false analogy, for a couple reasons.

One, as far as we know, the Fused are made of Odium's power. A godmetal from a different Shard would not be. And if you did somehow take the godmetal from another Shard and swap out its Investiture, I doubt it would act the same anymore, like how Enlightening a spren causes some pretty drastic changes to how it functions.

Two, I disagree with the premise that the powers are of the Shards in the same way as Investiture, and that the Fused using Surgebinding is "corrupted Surgebinding". It's a different method of access, but I wouldn't describe that as the same thing as corrupted Investiture, any more than fabrials are corrupted Allomancy.

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