Whose shades are they?

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

OK, maybe I am dense. The shades in the Forests of Hell are definitely ex-humans, aren't they? And shades dissolve slowly, so there is no such thing as a primordial shade. When the Forescouts arrived the forests were full of shades. There is no mention of aboriginies or ruins in the novella. That raises a question. Whose shades are they?

[Honorless Lord Ruler]

Now that is an excellent question!

Speculations ahoy! I think @Lunamortheorized that the Forests of Hell was where people from the Homeland were conducting some secret research on Cognitive Shadows (...or was that about what the Evil was? Sorry, I forgot)

I think that kinda makes sense, the things that drives the Shades into hunting mode can be argued to be a bit random. Maybe they were experimenting on commanding Cognitive Shadows

Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

Kinda like Awakeners researching Lifeless Commands

 

[Karger Unmade]

My theories are more boring.  The shades do seem attracted to humans(even more ones who don't follow the rules).  It is possible that the "full of shades" belief is actually a misconception and that the shades were always enraged against the early human explorers who first met them.  Also fading does not necessarily imply they dissolve.  The fused go through long periods of "hibernation."  Perhaps shades did the same when no settlers were around.  Their behavior may be much like spren in that they "fade" when no one attracts them.  We have yet to see Threnody's CR.

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

Still what generated the first shades? If you say they were always there, why only on that continent? And if so, why are they human and human only?

[Quantus Most Ancient]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Still what generated the first shades? If you say they were always there, why only on that continent? And if so, why are they human and human only?

The Human bit I would default to assuming that it requires a sapient creature to possess the required minimum Investiture. That would imply that a Singer Shade would be possible, for example, should one make it to the planet.  

 

"What Generated the First Shades" will probably depend on several other lingering questions like "What is the Evil" or "What are the Deepest Ones".  Im assuming it's fallout of the battle with Ambition, but other than that it could be almost anything.  I personally think they are spren/seons/skaze that were created when Ambition was destroyed but not shoved in the Cognitive Realm the way D&D were later on.  

.

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

The Human bit I would default to assuming that it requires a sapient creature to possess the required minimum Investiture. That would imply that a Singer Shade would be possible, for example, should one make it to the planet.  

Well, why are they not Sho Del, Dragon or Sleepless? If that is because these species never traveled to Threnody we need to imply that the shades were created locally. The why was te continent uninhabited?

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

"What Generated the First Shades" will probably depend on several other lingering questions like "What is the Evil" or "What are the Deepest Ones".  Im assuming it's fallout of the battle with Ambition, but other than that it could be almost anything.  I personally think they are spren/seons/skaze that were created when Ambition was destroyed but not shoved in the Cognitive Realm the way D&D were later on. 

Then why do they still exist in mostly a recognizable form? It needs extreme numbers of them to explain the Forests of Hell.

15 hours ago, Karger said:

My theories are more boring.  The shades do seem attracted to humans(even more ones who don't follow the rules).  It is possible that the "full of shades" belief is actually a misconception and that the shades were always enraged against the early human explorers who first met them.

I am afraid this theory needs to be rejected. It fails to explain why the Forests of Hell are empty of animals.

[Karger Unmade]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid this theory needs to be rejected. It fails to explain why the Forests of Hell are empty of animals.

I assume because the animals could not follow the simple rules?

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

Just now, Karger said:

I assume because the animals could not follow the simple rules?

Exactly. I fact we are told exactly that. But we are talking about a while continent here and if you look at how many small predators there are in a forest, you cannot get that eefect with thousands of shadows. You need really large numbers.

[Frustration Sliver]

26 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. I fact we are told exactly that. But we are talking about a while continent here and if you look at how many small predators there are in a forest, you cannot get that eefect with thousands of shadows. You need really large numbers.

Thousands of shadows over the course of decades or even centuries.

[Karger Unmade]

29 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. I fact we are told exactly that. But we are talking about a while continent here and if you look at how many small predators there are in a forest, you cannot get that eefect with thousands of shadows. You need really large numbers.

To add to Frustration.  It is not a particularly large continent either.  Also a few humans can overhunt almost any animal to extinction within a really short amount of time.

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Thousands of shadows over the course of decades or even centuries.

But the other side breeds. Yes, humans can with weapons hunt large animals, who breed slowly, into extinction. But something of rabbit size?

[Frustration Sliver]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But the other side breeds. Yes, humans can with weapons hunt large animals, who breed slowly, into extinction. But something of rabbit size?

All it takes is killing one more of them than are born every night.

It doesn't need to be instant, or alll of them, just enough that humans don't notice any more predators.

[BrightLord William Darkeyes]

On 26/09/2021 at 10:02 PM, Oltux72 said:

OK, maybe I am dense. The shades in the Forests of Hell are definitely ex-humans, aren't they? And shades dissolve slowly, so there is no such thing as a primordial shade. When the Forescouts arrived the forests were full of shades. There is no mention of aboriginies or ruins in the novella. That raises a question. Whose shades are they?

I think the clash between odoim and ambition could have caused the population to die. Maybe the population was all invested like breath but they relied on it to live? 

[That1Cellist Cryptic]

5 hours ago, BrightLord William said:

I think the clash between odoim and ambition could have caused the population to die. Maybe the population was all invested like breath but they relied on it to live? 

I mean, that would make sense. Threndonites who were not around for the splintering do not turn into shades, I think. This means the splintering is the cause. Nazh also talks about proper rights and rituals to become a shade. If people automatically become shades when they die, then that must mean all of the people must become invested upon death, or they were already invested and something strange happens when they die. We can assume that the splintering caused a large amount of investiture to get thrown around, because the evil exits, the shades exist, and the deepest ones exist. Could some of the shades be animals? If humans turn into shades upon death, then why not animals? It would also explain why some shades seem more aware than others. Maybe the deepest ones are humans who went through the proper rituals, and kept all of their sentience, knowledge, and humanity.

[Oltux72 Rambleman]

On 25.8.2022 at 11:20 AM, BrightLord William said:

I think the clash between odoim and ambition could have caused the population to die. Maybe the population was all invested like breath but they relied on it to live? 

The timing makes no sense. That clash was thousands of years ago by this time. In that case almost all Shades would have to be thousands of years old, because the Forest of Hell was settled only recently. But old Shades are an exception.

[Elder Arteth]

My question:  are the shades manifestations on Ambition’s investiture?  Or Odium’s?  
 

We know that Odium was “Weakened by his battles in the past,” (Rhythm of War, pg 1190).  On the other hand, in Arcanum Unbounded, they refer to big chunks of Ambition being ripped up.  

Violent ghosts who frenzy on bloodshed sound much more hateful than ambitious to me.  Maybe Odium expended investiture to hurt Ambition there, but only just enough to invest the Forests of Hell, while Ambition’s mortal wound created the Evil that overtook the mainland.

Or maybe it’s all Ambition but it’s lost its intent.

 

as for the original shades, what if originally it was just hyper-violent investiture gaining rudimentary intelligence, but it started taking the form of the people it killed, making cognitive shadows.

Edited February 6 by Elder

[Treamayne Seer]

5 hours ago, Elder said:

My question:  are the shades manifestations on Ambition’s investiture?  Or Odium’s?  

My theory, such as it is, is that The Evil is a Splinter of the combined chunks of Ambition and Odium:

Coppermind:

Spoiler

A Splinter is the term for a specific type of fragment of Investiture that is ultimately derived from Adonalsium. These Splinters can be composed of a single Shard's power or the Investiture of multiple Shards.

I also think the nature of the clash created the first Shades from people who died in the cataclysm and that the nature of the shades means that people killed by Shades can become a Shade (though that is unlikely to be the only means of creating a Shade - due to Nazh's comment in Secret History).

Spoiler

“One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!” the man exclaimed. He had a faintly strange accent, one Kelsier couldn’t place. “It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions. This . . . this is . . .” He threw his hands into the air. “This is a bother.”

So, I guess after all that, I would say that, I think a Shade is a cognitive shadow of a person that has been tainted by the combination of Ambition's and Odium's remnant Splinter(s).

[Elder Arteth]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

My theory, such as it is, is that The Evil is a Splinter of the combined chunks of Ambition and Odium:

Coppermind:

  Hide contents

A Splinter is the term for a specific type of fragment of Investiture that is ultimately derived from Adonalsium. These Splinters can be composed of a single Shard's power or the Investiture of multiple Shards.

I also think the nature of the clash created the first Shades from people who died in the cataclysm and that the nature of the shades means that people killed by Shades can become a Shade (though that is unlikely to be the only means of creating a Shade - due to Nazh's comment in Secret History).

  Hide contents

“One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!” the man exclaimed. He had a faintly strange accent, one Kelsier couldn’t place. “It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions. This . . . this is . . .” He threw his hands into the air. “This is a bother.”

So, I guess after all that, I would say that, I think a Shade is a cognitive shadow of a person that has been tainted by the combination of Ambition's and Odium's remnant Splinter(s).

Maybe originally Threnodites became cognitive shadows deliberately, with all the ritual and tradition, etc. Their dead revered.   then things went to (the forests of) hell.

The story also mentions the “deepest ones.”  Those might have something to do with it too.  Probably not theFused.

Edited February 7 by Elder