Best case scenario for Odium

[Shinwarrior]

What are your guy's opinions about the best solution to deal with Odium? Frost mentions that "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." and the intent of the shard will eventually overpower the vessel (as seen with Ruin). I think it's still too early to tell if Ruin has been dealt with properly, but imo that was best case scenario for what could happen to Ruin. Similarly, Odium is a destroyer, and we've seen that even if the vessel is destroyed the power will remain. (I believe there is a law of conservation of energy with investiture). Without a vessel, I still think the power of Odium would be dangerous. Which has me thinking.. what would be the best case scenario to deal with him? I have thought of a couple scenario's but I'm not sure what's the best .

1) Unite it with another Shard (Similar to what happened with Harmony and Ruin and Preservation). Pro- It gives a little bit of context to the divine hatred and passion that is the shard. Con- We know that the combination of Odium and Honor is War and I imagine the combo of Cultivation and Odium to be something like Cancer or Infestation which wouldn't be good. 

2) Bind Odium somewhere. This seems to be Hoid's plan. It doesn't seem the most moral, but it does serve as the best utilitarian approach. I imagine something like a prison fashioned after the manor that preservation made for Ruin. (Which might have been what Honor was trying for). Pro- Decreases the influence of the shard, and doesn't allow him to continue to destroy others. Con- Prisons can be broken and it feels like the oath pact tried to do this and wasn't permanent. 

3) Splinter the Shard. Similarly to what Odium himself did to Honor, Devotion, and Dominion. Pro - this would prevent further planning and manipulation from the shard/vessel Con- The power still exists. I imagine that the inhabitants of Roshar (or anywhere that has his influence) would have to deal with his splinters. I see this as the thrill and other splinters still being a problem if it was released from it's gemstone and other variations of splinters forming. 

4)Unite it with all the Shards. Looking back at the quote from frost if you gave the virtues of god back to bridle the passion would that make it better. Pro- divine hatred and passion have context. Con- This sounds almost impossible.  It's my opinion that the shattering of  Adonalsium wasn't a great uprising, but rather a planned event for a specific reason. It would be very, very hard to convince all the shards to recombine all their power. 

 

Is there any other good plausible solutions that could happen that would effectively deal with Odium? 

[Legui01010]

18 minutes ago, Shinwarrior said:

What are your guy's opinions about the best solution to deal with Odium? Frost mentions that "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." and the intent of the shard will eventually overpower the vessel (as seen with Ruin). I think it's still too early to tell if Ruin has been dealt with properly, but imo that was best case scenario for what could happen to Ruin. Similarly, Odium is a destroyer, and we've seen that even if the vessel is destroyed the power will remain. (I believe there is a law of conservation of energy with investiture). Without a vessel, I still think the power of Odium would be dangerous. Which has me thinking.. what would be the best case scenario to deal with him? I have thought of a couple scenario's but I'm not sure what's the best .

1) Unite it with another Shard (Similar to what happened with Harmony and Ruin and Preservation). Pro- It gives a little bit of context to the divine hatred and passion that is the shard. Con- We know that the combination of Odium and Honor is War and I imagine the combo of Cultivation and Odium to be something like Cancer or Infestation which wouldn't be good. 

2) Bind Odium somewhere. This seems to be Hoid's plan. It doesn't seem the most moral, but it does serve as the best utilitarian approach. I imagine something like a prison fashioned after the manor that preservation made for Ruin. (Which might have been what Honor was trying for). Pro- Decreases the influence of the shard, and doesn't allow him to continue to destroy others. Con- Prisons can be broken and it feels like the oath pact tried to do this and wasn't permanent. 

3) Splinter the Shard. Similarly to what Odium himself did to Honor, Devotion, and Dominion. Pro - this would prevent further planning and manipulation from the shard/vessel Con- The power still exists. I imagine that the inhabitants of Roshar (or anywhere that has his influence) would have to deal with his splinters. I see this as the thrill and other splinters still being a problem if it was released from it's gemstone and other variations of splinters forming. 

4)Unite it with all the Shards. Looking back at the quote from frost if you gave the virtues of god back to bridle the passion would that make it better. Pro- divine hatred and passion have context. Con- This sounds almost impossible.  It's my opinion that the shattering of  Adonalsium wasn't a great uprising, but rather a planned event for a specific reason. It would be very, very hard to convince all the shards to recombine all their power. 

 

Is there any other good plausible solutions that could happen that would effectively deal with Odium? 

The 4th outcome sounds outright impossible, considering that the inhabitants of Sel should reforge the Splinters of Devotion and Dominion (which I don't believe it's possible, since the AonDor is the combined Investure of both Shards by my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong). Regardless I don't think there's a way to contain Odium; perhaps (and this seems so unlikely) if someone was to take the power and then let go of it in a place where it cannot be found, kinda like Kelsier did with Preservation when he gave the power go to Vin. This can go very wrong for 2 reasons:

1. The one who takes the power might be enticed with it and doesn't want to let go.

2. Is there a possible way to hide Odium? We know of a Shard who is hiding from him (or perhaps the coming conflict in the Cosmere), maybe he/she found a way to make his presence null or unnoticeable to the other Shards.

Other than that, I can't think of any other way to deal with Odium, no Shard could fight him (except maybe Valor, of which we know nothing, or Sazed, if Odium comes to the Scadrian system and goes in an outright war against Scadrial, in which case Sazed would be forced to maintain the balance). 

[Quantus]

We're talking post RoW, yes?

5th Option:

Spoiler

It will prove to be solved already by the Spiritweb meddling of Cultivation on the current Host, which will give him a mechanism for insulating himself from his own Passions, and thus prevent the sort of slow warping that we apparently saw in Ati.

 

[Shinwarrior]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

We're talking post RoW, yes?

5th Option:

  Hide contents

It will prove to be solved already by the Spiritweb meddling of Cultivation on the current Host, which will give him a mechanism for insulating himself from his own Passions, and thus prevent the sort of slow warping that we apparently saw in Ati.

 

Yes we are. I see what you mean about the meddling on his Spirit web providing a type of insulation, but it seemed to me that in that meddling she created someone more aligned with the shard's intent. While he may be protected from the passions, I don't think the warping will need to do as much to align. 

[Quantus]

 

1 minute ago, Shinwarrior said:

Yes we are. I see what you mean about the meddling on his Spirit web providing a type of insulation, but it seemed to me that in that meddling she created someone more aligned with the shard's intent. While he may be protected from the passions, I don't think the warping will need to do as much to align. 

It's all theory and Im not even sure I buy it myself, but I think only one half of the person is actually aligned with the Shard (intentionally crafted so) while the other side is its opposite (to some degree or another).  And if we assume that taking up a shard just Inflates the Spiritweb (consistent with Slivers) instead if significantly altering it, then that dichotomy might still be in place, with one half that resonates with the Shard and another Half that very specifically does not.  

[Zoey]

Odium is more like Passion in general, as shown by Ashertmarn and Neargoul, mixed with Rayse's own words, and Dalinar upon experiencing the true essence of Odium. So maybe we can fix it by killing Taravangian and having a more sane and moral individual take it up, which would effect the exact manifestation of the Intent, as it did with Ruin becoming entropy and decay instead of pure destruction due to Ati being a better person.  

[Legui01010]

1 hour ago, Zoey said:

Odium is more like Passion in general, as shown by Ashertmarn and Neargoul, mixed with Rayse's own words, and Dalinar upon experiencing the true essence of Odium. So maybe we can fix it by killing Taravangian and having a more sane and moral individual take it up, which would effect the exact manifestation of the Intent, as it did with Ruin becoming entropy and decay instead of pure destruction due to Ati being a better person.  

If Cultivation's gift to Taravangian is still active, giving Taravangian Passions (which align him with Odium much better than it did with Rayse) and superior intelligence, who and how could kill Taravangian?

[Zoey]

Well, he appears to still be bound by the Contract of the Contest of Champions. So, just Dalinar needs to defeat the Champion Taravangian chooses. Iirc. 

[apepi]

I feel like this question doesn't really grasp Odium really, or any of the shards.

Odium, like all shards are more like forces of nature. How do you deal with the rain? Do you blow up the rain? Make the humidity go all the way down?

No, you simply deal with it.

Like how would you 'deal' with Honor? Odium is in the hearts of men just as Honor is, I find questions like these somewhat silly.

[crème de la crèmling]

For me, the themes in the series generally revolve around facing up to and reconciling/making peace with the difficult/negative feelings that come with life. Taking a step back to look at the Oathpact, Odium, etc. from that huge overarching theme, I can see why "hatred" would be considered a fundamental aspect of creation; difficult and negative feelings are a part of existence. Trying to seal them away doesn't work (Shallan), letting them rule you doesn't work (Kaladin), giving into them doesn't work (Dalinar), and presumably trying to destroy them won't work either (this is where I feel Szeth may be headed.) Other people have written pretty extensively about the relationship between Dalinar and Odium; with all the stuff about choosing to rise up again a better man, etc. is there no possible outcome where Dalinar actually gets through to Odium and persuades him to, uh, stop waging an endless, pointless war against the cosmere? (I mean it hasn't happened yet, but ...)

[trytoguess]

They're 3 options I could think of that could take care of Odium in theory. Only issue is all options are far beyond the current capabilities of the Cosmere. Perhaps the sci-fi setting can do these:

1. Kill Taravangian somehow. Condense his power into a metal and shoot the mass into a random direction in space.
2. Kill Taravangian again. Convert half of Odium's investiture into it's antithesis. Remix the two halves together and watch the explosion from several light years away.
3. Or instead of destroying the Odium investiture/anti-investiture combo, get a "balanced" person to absorb both powers. The result should be a god-like entity like Sazed who would mostly be frozen in indecision.

Edited September 21, 2021 by trytoguess

[Shinwarrior]

2 hours ago, crème de la crèmling said:

For me, the themes in the series generally revolve around facing up to and reconciling/making peace with the difficult/negative feelings that come with life. Taking a step back to look at the Oathpact, Odium, etc. from that huge overarching theme, I can see why "hatred" would be considered a fundamental aspect of creation; difficult and negative feelings are a part of existence. Trying to seal them away doesn't work (Shallan), letting them rule you doesn't work (Kaladin), giving into them doesn't work (Dalinar), and presumably trying to destroy them won't work either (this is where I feel Szeth may be headed.) 

I like the thoughts and agree. It’s part of the powers of creation. I get a little bit of a wheel of time feel about how the dark one was dealt with, but I don’t see things going that way at the end. 

2 hours ago, apepi said:

I feel like this question doesn't really grasp Odium really, or any of the shards.

Odium, like all shards are more like forces of nature. How do you deal with the rain? Do you blow up the rain? Make the humidity go all the way down?

No, you simply deal with it.

Like how would you 'deal' with Honor? Odium is in the hearts of men just as Honor is, I find questions like these somewhat silly.

Sorry that this appeared silly to you. Obviously it’s purely speculation. My perspective is If I had an anger problem I would look to find a plan that would help me deal with it. Same as if I was a yes man or afraid of change so much that it became a problem. I view Odium as a problem and am obviously not sure what I would consider is the best solution to that problem. 

[RedBlue]

I don’t think this is a silly question. Odium has been set up as the main antagonist of book five, and possibly beyond that. The conflict needs to be resolved somehow.

I don’t think it’s likely that Odium will be dealt with by combining it with another Shard, because we’ve already seen that happen with a Shard antagonist and having it happen again might feel repetitive.

I also don’t think binding Odium with more contracts or trapping him in some other place is likely, at least as a long term solution, because I’m not sure there’s any version of that plan that doesn’t come off as stalling. It would end up feeling like it’s just a matter of time before Odium becomes a problem again. 

Odium being Splintered is a strong possibility, in my opinion. There would be consequences, since that would create lots of little Odium splinters which could be a problem in and of themselves, but the original conflict would be resolved and dealing with splinters sounds much more manageable than dealing with the Shard.

Reforming a new Adonalsium out of all the Shards might be an option much later in the cosmere, but not during Stormlight. It involves too much cosmere stuff that’s beyond the scope of the story being told right now.

Another option I think could happen is to replace Odium’s Vessel again, but this time with someone who will redirect the Shard so that it’s harmless to people. They wouldn’t be able to fundamentally change the nature of the Shard, but it might be possible to point it in directions that aren’t as destructive.

[Mason Wheeler]

13 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Reforming a new Adonalsium out of all the Shards might be an option much later in the cosmere, but not during Stormlight. It involves too much cosmere stuff that’s beyond the scope of the story being told right now.

This really feels like it's Hoid's ultimate goal, or somehow related to Hoid's goal.  Remember his talk with Dalinar, where he name-dropped Adonalsium and just moments later talked about taking a person apart and then putting him back together slightly differently?

[Legui01010]

On 9/21/2021 at 8:52 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

This really feels like it's Hoid's ultimate goal, or somehow related to Hoid's goal.  Remember his talk with Dalinar, where he name-dropped Adonalsium and just moments later talked about taking a person apart and then putting him back together slightly differently?

I have to reread that, do you remember the chapter?

[Letryx13]

I started reading stormlight first, and then switched over to Mistborn before I started Oathbringer.  My original thought was that Odium would be balanced by some other god or force, but been there, done that.

I think the solution to defeating Odium lies in the chapter where he (Rayse) and Dalinar were setting the terms for the contest in RoW.  In that chapter, two things were mentioned that stuck out to me.

1. Odium pitched the idea that if he lost the contest, he would retreat to Braize and not contact or influence anyone, although this wasn't part of the terms they agreed to. 

2. If Odium breaks his word, doesn't fulfill his end of the deal, he is under Dalinar's power.

If you combine those, then in theory, it becomes possible for Dalinar to order Odium to go to Braize, and never communicate or influence anyone ever again, trapping the shard of hatred permanently.  And the way I see that happening is if they manage to A. win the contest and B. prevent Odium from being able to give Dalinar what he promised. So if they could recover Alethkar (or even better Herdaz, since Odium called it insignificant) Odium couldn't return them, thereby breaking his word, putting himself under Daliar's power. 

The only problem I see with this, is that Odium (Taravangian) might construe this idea as being in bad faith of the deal between him and Dalinar. So maybe it needs to be some neutral party to get in Odium's way.

[Mason Wheeler]

37 minutes ago, Legui01010 said:

I have to reread that, do you remember the chapter?

WoK chapter 54.

[Legui01010]

On 9/22/2021 at 11:04 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

WoK chapter 54.

Thanks, I jus reread it. If Hoid truly intends to put Adonalsium back together, does he plan to do so with the power of each world (i.e. the type of refined Investure provided by each of the Shards) or is he getting all the powers to go in an all out war with the Shards? Also does he plan to become Adonalsium himself or does he want to create a new one? From all we've read of him, he could very well give the power to create a new one, what do you guys think?

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Legui01010 said:

Thanks, I jus reread it. If Hoid truly intends to put Adonalsium back together, does he plan to do so with the power of each world (i.e. the type of refined Investure provided by each of the Shards) or is he getting all the powers to go in an all out war with the Shards? Also does he plan to become Adonalsium himself or does he want to create a new one? From all we've read of him, he could very well give the power to create a new one, what do you guys think?

I kept thinking that his plan was to become a new Adonalsium. I don't think he wants to go to war over it, but I think he believes something can be achieved only with the combined powers off all the shards in one person. Maybe he doesn't even intend to become a full Adonalsium, but a smaller scale one with more freedom.  My brother and I think he might end up being the final enemy in the cosmere.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Letryx13

[Mason Wheeler]

Just now, Letryx13 said:

My brother and I think he might end up being the final enemy in the cosmere.

Oh, now there's an interesting idea!  What's your line of reasoning for that?

[Letryx13]

18 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Oh, now there's an interesting idea!  What's your line of reasoning for that?

Well, he's been sneaking around various world's, gathering power, and doesn't seem interested in explaining himself to anyone.  He seems to be hiding his true nature behind a mask of mockery and joking, but you can catch a hint of seriousness every now and then.  He's managed to avoid the notice of Harmony, despite the fact that he's asked Harmony's help in appealing to the other Shards.  Most of the help he's provided has been in stopping Odium, who basically intends to conquer the cosmere, which means he'd be in Hoid's way.  Most of the other shards also appear to be distrustful of him.

All of that together just smells like he's biding his time, waiting for the right moment to make his move. It's mostly just a feeling on my part, but it seems like it would fit so well. Having the final big bad be present in almost every book along the way with nobody noticing it until the very end.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Letryx13

[Mason Wheeler]

11 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Well, he's been sneaking around various world's, gathering power, and doesn't seem interested in explaining himself to anyone.

True, but then again most of the people capable of actually understanding are the Vessels.

Quote

He seems to be hiding his true nature behind a mask of mockery and joking, but you can catch a hint of seriousness every now and then.  He's managed to avoid the notice of Harmony, despite the fact that he's asked Harmony's help in appealing to the other Shards.

Well yeah!  When there's a new Shard in town, (theoretically) twice as powerful as any of the others, what reasonable person wouldn't want to watch very carefully from afar and avoid drawing their notice until they had ascertained whether or not this one had malevolent intentions?

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Most of the help he's provided has been in stopping Odium, who basically intends to conquer the cosmere, which means he'd be in Hoid's way.

He would only be in Hoid's way if that is Hoid's intention.  You can't use your premise as evidence to support your premise.

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Most of the other shards also appear to be distrustful of him.

Yeah, he's what you call a "class traitor."  Look at what Endowment had to say to him: you had your chance to be one of us, you turned it down, so stay out of our affairs.

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All of that together just smells like he's biding his time, waiting for the right moment to make his move. It's mostly just a feeling on my part, but it seems like it would fit so well. Having the final big bad be present in almost every book along the way with nobody noticing it until the very end.

Maybe.  From a literary perspective that makes sense, but it doesn't appear particularly well supported by the facts of this specific case.  Particularly when you consider that his history with a Dawnshard forces him into a life of extreme pacifism.  That doesn't seem particularly compatible with an aspiring galactic conqueror.

[Letryx13]

10 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

True, but then again most of the people capable of actually understanding are the Vessels.

I bet Jasnah could understand.  He even explains a little to Shallan, which I've never understood. And sneaking around gathering power quietly just feels like a villain thing to do.

12 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Well yeah!  When there's a new Shard in town, (theoretically) twice as powerful as any of the others, what reasonable person wouldn't want to watch very carefully from afar and avoid drawing their notice until they had ascertained whether or not this one had malevolent intentions?

 

 

And yet he's still asking for Harmony's help. It feels kind of weird (to me at least) to ask for help from someone that you're not trusting.   I agree completely that he'd want to assess what kind of person Harmony is before communicating with him, but trust goes two ways.

15 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

He would only be in Hoid's way if that is Hoid's intention.  You can't use your premise as evidence to support your premise.

Again, I agree, it is kind of circular.  It seems like everyone thinks the reason why Hoid wants to get rid of Odium is because he's evil, or because of Hoid's past grudge against him. But this possible reason for his motivation is kind of intriguing to me.

Overall, this is mostly just a gut feeling on my part. When my brother first mentioned this theory to me, I had the same reaction you did.  But over time, it started to feel more likely. It all just seems to fit so well. And I (like Dhalinar) trust my hunches.

[Legui01010]

48 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

It seems like everyone thinks the reason why Hoid wants to get rid of Odium is because he's evil, or because of Hoid's past grudge against him. But this possible reason for his motivation is kind of intriguing to me.

 

This doesn't really stand anymore, since the end of RoW, Hoid knows (or is somewhat suspicious) that Rayse is no longer Odium. It seems to me that Hoid wants something of Odium (if he's intending to gain Voidbinding), and that's why he confronted him at the end of RoW, possibly manipulating or deceiving Taravangian for some reason.

 

1 hour ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Particularly when you consider that his history with a Dawnshard forces him into a life of extreme pacifism.  That doesn't seem particularly compatible with an aspiring galactic conqueror.

Not every affliction is permanent, this was proven in Elantris, when Raoden fixed the Chasm line. Perhaps Hoid thinks or knows there's a way to heal the damage done by wielding the Dawnshard, possibly removing his "pacifism". I don't think he wants to be a conqueror, he has shown sorrow in his conversation with Dalinar, regarding that he would let the world be destroyed if it meant him gaining what he needs, even if it brought a great deal of grief to him. But I do believe he will become the main antagonist of the SA, even if his actions seem "just" to him.

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Legui01010 said:

This doesn't really stand anymore, since the end of RoW, Hoid knows (or is somewhat suspicious) that Rayse is no longer Odium. It seems to me that Hoid wants something of Odium (if he's intending to gain Voidbinding), and that's why he confronted him at the end of RoW, possibly manipulating or deceiving Taravangian for some reason..

Well, that's assuming Hoid knows Rayse is dead.  I'm not convinced he does. I thought that was the point of RoW's epilogue.  Hoid always seemed untouchable and one step ahead of everyone else, but Taravangian managed to get the better of him.  Which if true, is kind of terrifying.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Letryx13