Frustration Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) So I've been thinking about the Alignment of Dawnshards to shards for a long time but I've never made a post about it, mainly because I've never been able to pin down one I've liked. However I recently decided to sit down and work through it. So one thing that bothered me about sorting Shards solely into groups of four is that Ruin and Odium both speak of Passion with great importance. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8330 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10447 But Ruin belongs quite clearly in the Change dawnshard, something Odium does not. So I propose that there is a second set of four ideas, I'm not sure whether to call them intents or flavors or whatever, but these when cross referenced with the Dawnshard Commands will give us a Table of the Shards like so, With Dawnshard Commands along the top, and the attributes along the side With the recent reveal of Virtuosity I think I can now fill out the table Change Unite Give Choose Natural Cultivation Honor Endowment Autonomy/Ambition? Passion Ruin Odium Mercy Valor Control Preservation Dominion Invention Ambition/Autonomy? Beauty Whimsy Devotion Virtuosity Appraisal? I feel this does a much better job of explaining the Shards and their Alignment with Dawnshards. Thoughts? Edited March 28, 2022 by Frustration 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solant Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 I like it as an idea, but several don't sit well with me. I feel like cultivation is controlled growth, so could fit easily in either row. Odium doesn't feel like something that unites, and I've always wondered if that shard was interpreted that way due to Rayse being hateful anyways. And whimsy feels hard to categorize by definition. Im sure there is a definitive chart or something close to it, and I've wondered about it too. I just wonder if we have enough information without more dawnshards. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted September 17, 2021 Report Share Posted September 17, 2021 7 hours ago, Frustration said: So I've been thinking about the Alignment of Dawnshards to shards for a long time but I've never made a post about it, mainly because I've never been able to pin down one I've liked. However I recently decided to sit down and work through it. So one thing that bothered me about sorting Shards solely into groups of four is that Ruin and Odium both speak of Passion with great importance. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8330 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10447 Wouldn't a double-Dawnshard theory with Feel or Passion as one of the Dawnshards solve this issue without having to create a new concept? Quote Question? A lot Why did you put the God of stasis in the Change part? As @Solant said Cultivation is controlled growth and therefore fits Natural far less than Ruin (entropy) Why did you put the Goddess of love (Devotion) out of the Passion line? Isn't the Give Dawnshard a bit redundant with Endowment the Goddess of gifts? Why is Invention in Give? Here's my attempt at a double Dawnshards theory based on Change/Bind/Continue/Feel that take into account the Passion WoBs, placement of course not finals (especially Endowment) Spoiler Change Bind Continue Feel Change Whimsy Dominion Autonomy Ambition Bind Cultivation Honour Preservation Odium Continue Invention In Hiding Endowment Valour Feel Ruin Devotion Mercy Unknown Hey @LewsTherinTelescope and @Kingsdaughter613, there's a new Shard-Dawnshard theory in town 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted September 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2021 (edited) On 9/17/2021 at 0:31 AM, Solant said: Odium doesn't feel like something that unites, and I've always wondered if that shard was interpreted that way due to Rayse being hateful anyways. Here's my best recreation of a quote from Elantris, someone with the book can be more accurate. "...hatred can unify men far more quickly and far more powerfully than devotion ever could." On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said: Wouldn't a double-Dawnshard theory with Feel or Passion as one of the Dawnshards solve this issue without having to create a new concept? Well it wouldn't be a new concept so much as identifying an existing one. And Passion is a noun not a verb, and neither of them talk about feeling. On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said: Why did you put the God of stasis in the Change part? In order to preserve something you have to change it's condition. And how does stasis and destruction make Harmony? On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said: As @Solant said Cultivation is controlled growth and therefore fits Natural far less than Ruin (entropy) Ruin isn't just entropy though, it's about the feeling of destroying, that's why both he and the Inquisitors feel intense emotional reactions. On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said: Why did you put the Goddess of love (Devotion) out of the Passion line? So if we asked a bunch of Stick fans why they like Stick, and a bunch of Moash haters why they hate Moash, who do you think will have the more passionate response? It's not about being emotional, it's about the Conviction. On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said: Isn't the Give Dawnshard a bit redundant with Endowment the Goddess of gifts? Why is Invention in Give? What can you describe Mercy as other than a gift? And Inventions are gifts to everyone. On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said: Here's my attempt at a double Dawnshards theory based on Change/Bind/Continue/Feel that take into account the Passion WoBs, placement of course not finals (especially Endowment) Reveal hidden contents Change Bind Continue Feel Change Whimsy Dominion Autonomy Ambition Bind Cultivation Honour Preservation Odium Continue Invention In Hiding Endowment Valour Feel Ruin Devotion Mercy Unknown I would love to compare theories, but this isn't the thread for that. Edited January 7, 2022 by Frustration 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 I have uptadted my post after the reveal of Virtuosity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 I don't think Preservation fits with change. the actual intent of Preservation seems to be stasis, not Preservation. In SH when Fuzz was at his weakest, he liked TLR because he didn't change, even though TLR was killing people. He could have tried to change things in order to Preserve the Skaa better, but he didn't want to. Ruin was destruction, but that was largely due to Ati's interpretation of the Shard's intent. once Sazed got the shard, he interpreted it more towards simple entropy. I think Invention is likely a better fit for the 'change' Dawnshard, and Preservation would be a better fit for the 'give' Dawnshard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: I don't think Preservation fits with change. the actual intent of Preservation seems to be stasis, not Preservation. In SH when Fuzz was at his weakest, he liked TLR because he didn't change, even though TLR was killing people. He could have tried to change things in order to Preserve the Skaa better, but he didn't want to. Ruin was destruction, but that was largely due to Ati's interpretation of the Shard's intent. once Sazed got the shard, he interpreted it more towards simple entropy. I think Invention is likely a better fit for the 'change' Dawnshard, and Preservation would be a better fit for the 'give' Dawnshard. How does Invention fit more than Virtuosity? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: How does Invention fit more than Virtuosity? What do you mean? I'm not talking about Virtuosity at all here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Nameless said: What do you mean? I'm not talking about Virtuosity at all here. How does Invention: the creation of machines/devices, fit Change better than Virtuosity: the creation of art? What is the big difference between the two that makes one change and the other not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: How does Invention: the creation of machines/devices, fit Change better than Virtuosity: the creation of art? What is the big difference between the two that makes one change and the other not? What makes Preservation: making sure stuff doesn't change, fit better than Invention: making new things? Also, how does Cultivation: making stuff grow in a controlled way, fit better into natural than Whimsy: doing whatever you want. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: What makes Preservation: making sure stuff doesn't change, fit better than Invention: making new things? Simple, you used Change in you description of Preservation. The two concepts are intresically tied together. You can't have change if there isn't something for it to change from. 1 minute ago, Nameless said: Also, how does Cultivation: making stuff grow in a controlled way, fit better into natural than Whimsy: doing whatever you want. Because Odium and the fused call both Honor and Cultivation as gods of nature. Additionally Cultivation and Honor make Science which is about as natural as you get. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 4 minutes ago, Frustration said: Simple, you used Change in you description of Preservation. The two concepts are intresically tied together. You can't have change if there isn't something for it to change from. Preservation could not make make a planet on his own. He needed Ruin for that. 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: Because Odium and the fused call both Honor and Cultivation as gods of nature. Additionally Cultivation and Honor make Science which is about as natural as you get. They are called gods of nature because they're both invested in Roshar so that their tones have become part of the planet. Science is not natural, it is about discovering the nature of the world in a controlled way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 I'm still not convinced that Dawnshards, which act whereas Shards are, align to Shards in neat groups like this at all. I think they explore an entirely different aspect of divinity that can or cannot in any individual case link up with a specific Intent but less prescriptively than this, and that the "verbs" they represent are things that should be inapplicable to God and that's how the combined use of them broke Adonalsium. Remember, they precede the Shards and their Intents as separate entities, probably. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 15 minutes ago, Nameless said: Preservation could not make make a planet on his own. He needed Ruin for that. Ruin couldn't make a planet on his own. He needed Preservation for that. 15 minutes ago, Nameless said: They are called gods of nature because they're both invested in Roshar so that their tones have become part of the planet. Science is not natural, it is about discovering the nature of the world in a controlled way. Going to have to disagree on that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 If Intents are linked to Commands inherently though, then I'd strongly suggest one Command will be Survive. It's been hinted at in text (Kel's use of it in a semi-divine manner at various points, and now that has cross-Cosmeric importance) and in WoB (a Shard specifically noted to having an Intent linked to Survival) and it fits the scope of the Command known so far. I wonder if Dawnshards can invert their Commands somehow, and if inverted Unity is what allows for Splintering? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 30 minutes ago, Frustration said: Ruin couldn't make a planet on his own. He needed Preservation for that. Yeah. Because his intent is entropy. I don't see how this is relevant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 10 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yeah. Because his intent is entropy. I don't see how this is relevant. You brought it up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: You brought it up. Ruin could change things. However, he also had the whole "kill everything" vibe going on, so he needed Preservation to to stop that. Think of Preservation + Ruin as Preservation + (Kill everything + change things). Preservation and kill everything cancel out, leaving change things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Nameless said: Ruin could change things. However, he also had the whole "kill everything" vibe going on, so he needed Preservation to to stop that. Think of Preservation + Ruin as Preservation + (Kill everything + change things). Preservation and kill everything cancel out, leaving change things. I don't think that works anyway as Ruin is still a net negative force. Maybe this will make more sense as why I think Preservation should be change. Whimsy - All Change Cultivation - Positive Change Ruin - Negative Change Preservation - No Change 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 3 minutes ago, Frustration said: I don't think that works anyway as Ruin is still a net negative force. Maybe this will make more sense as why I think Preservation should be change. Whimsy - All Change Cultivation - Positive Change Ruin - Negative Change Preservation - No Change Whimsy is random change. Cultivation is controlled change. Ruin is breaking stuff down. Therefore, there should be a shard about building things up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: Whimsy is random change. Cultivation is controlled change. Ruin is breaking stuff down. Therefore, there should be a shard about building things up. Virtuosity makes things, Dominion and Ambition try to make things bigger. There are a lot of shards that fit that description. Additionally Virtuosity and Invention are too similar to not be in the same Dawnshard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: Virtuosity makes things, Dominion and Ambition try to make things bigger. There are a lot of shards that fit that description. Additionally Virtuosity and Invention are too similar to not be in the same Dawnshard. So Invention is 'positive' change. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Nameless said: So Invention is 'positive' change. Which Cultivation already covers. And which other shard are you cutting out to make room for Virtuosity? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted March 18, 2022 Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: Which Cultivation already covers. And which other shard are you cutting out to make room for Virtuosity? Cultivation does not cover positive change. Cultivation is controlled change. You can cultivate stuff for evil. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: Cultivation does not cover positive change. Cultivation is controlled change. You can cultivate stuff for evil. Ruin isn't evil but it is a negative, and you can Invent things for evil. Quote "I control all things that can be grown, nurtured." ~ A rough paraphrase of Cultivation. Cultivation makes more of what is, a net positive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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