Frustration

The Table Model of Dawnshards

73 posts in this topic

So I've been thinking about the Alignment of Dawnshards to shards for a long time but I've never made a post about it, mainly because I've never been able to pin down one I've liked. However I recently decided to sit down and work through it.

So one thing that bothered me about sorting Shards solely into groups of four is that Ruin and Odium both speak of Passion with great importance. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8330 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10447

But Ruin belongs quite clearly in the Change dawnshard, something Odium does not.

So I propose that there is a second set of four ideas, I'm not sure whether to call them intents or flavors or whatever, but these when cross referenced with the Dawnshard Commands will give us a Table of the Shards like so, With Dawnshard Commands along the top, and the attributes along the side

 

With the recent reveal of Virtuosity I think I can now fill out the table

          

 

     Change

 

     Unite

 

     Give  

 

     Choose

Natural

 

     Cultivation

 

     Honor

 

     Endowment

 

     Autonomy/Ambition?

Passion

 

     Ruin

 

     Odium

 

     Mercy

 

     Valor

Control

 

     Preservation

 

     Dominion

 

     Invention

 

     Ambition/Autonomy?

Beauty

 

     Whimsy

 

     Devotion

 

     Virtuosity

 

     Appraisal?


I feel this does a much better job of explaining the Shards and their Alignment with Dawnshards.

Thoughts?

 
Edited by Frustration
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I like it as an idea, but several don't sit well with me.  I feel like cultivation is controlled growth, so could fit easily in either row. Odium doesn't feel like something that unites, and I've always wondered if that shard was interpreted that way due to Rayse being hateful anyways. And whimsy feels hard to categorize by definition. 

Im sure there is a definitive chart or something close to it, and I've wondered about it too. I just wonder if we have enough information without more dawnshards.

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7 hours ago, Frustration said:

So I've been thinking about the Alignment of Dawnshards to shards for a long time but I've never made a post about it, mainly because I've never been able to pin down one I've liked. However I recently decided to sit down and work through it.

So one thing that bothered me about sorting Shards solely into groups of four is that Ruin and Odium both speak of Passion with great importance. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8330 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10447

Wouldn't a double-Dawnshard theory with Feel or Passion as one of the Dawnshards solve this issue without having to create a new concept?

Quote

Question?

A lot

  1. Why did you put the God of stasis in the Change part?
  2. As @Solant said Cultivation is controlled growth and therefore fits Natural far less than Ruin (entropy)
  3. Why did you put the Goddess of love (Devotion) out of the Passion line?
  4. Isn't the Give Dawnshard a bit redundant with Endowment the Goddess of gifts?
  5. Why is Invention in Give?

 

Here's my attempt at a double Dawnshards theory based on Change/Bind/Continue/Feel that take into account the Passion WoBs, placement of course not finals (especially Endowment)

Spoiler

 

Change

Bind

Continue

Feel

Change

Whimsy

Dominion

Autonomy

Ambition

Bind

Cultivation

Honour

Preservation

Odium

Continue

Invention

 In Hiding

Endowment

Valour

Feel

Ruin

Devotion

Mercy

Unknown

Hey @LewsTherinTelescope and @Kingsdaughter613, there's a new Shard-Dawnshard theory in town

 

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On 9/17/2021 at 0:31 AM, Solant said:

Odium doesn't feel like something that unites, and I've always wondered if that shard was interpreted that way due to Rayse being hateful anyways.

Here's my best recreation of a quote from Elantris, someone with the book can be more accurate.

"...hatred can unify men far more quickly and far more powerfully than devotion ever could."

On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said:

Wouldn't a double-Dawnshard theory with Feel or Passion as one of the Dawnshards solve this issue without having to create a new concept?

Well it wouldn't be a new concept so much as identifying an existing one. And Passion is a noun not a verb, and neither of them talk about feeling.

On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said:
  1. Why did you put the God of stasis in the Change part?

In order to preserve something you have to change it's condition.

And how does stasis and destruction make Harmony?

On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said:
  1. As @Solant said Cultivation is controlled growth and therefore fits Natural far less than Ruin (entropy)

Ruin isn't just entropy though, it's about the feeling of destroying, that's why both he and the Inquisitors feel intense emotional reactions.

On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said:
  1. Why did you put the Goddess of love (Devotion) out of the Passion line?

So if we asked a bunch of Stick fans why they like Stick, and a bunch of Moash haters why they hate Moash, who do you think will have the more passionate response? It's not about being emotional, it's about the Conviction.

On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said:
  1. Isn't the Give Dawnshard a bit redundant with Endowment the Goddess of gifts?
  2. Why is Invention in Give?

What can you describe Mercy as other than a gift?

And Inventions are gifts to everyone.

On 9/17/2021 at 7:26 AM, mathiau said:

Here's my attempt at a double Dawnshards theory based on Change/Bind/Continue/Feel that take into account the Passion WoBs, placement of course not finals (especially Endowment)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Change

 

Bind

 

Continue

 

Feel

 

Change

 

Whimsy

 

Dominion

 

Autonomy

 

Ambition

 

Bind

 

Cultivation

 

Honour

 

Preservation

 

Odium

 

Continue

 

Invention

 

 

 In Hiding

Endowment

 

Valour

 

Feel

 

Ruin

 

Devotion

 

Mercy

 

 

Unknown

 

I would love to compare theories, but this isn't the thread for that.

Edited by Frustration
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I have uptadted my post after the reveal of Virtuosity.

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I don't think Preservation fits with change. the actual intent of Preservation seems to be stasis, not Preservation. In SH when Fuzz was at his weakest, he liked TLR because he didn't change, even though TLR was killing people. He could have tried to change things in order to Preserve the Skaa better, but he didn't want to. Ruin was destruction, but that was largely due to Ati's interpretation of the Shard's intent. once Sazed got the shard, he interpreted it more towards simple entropy.

I think Invention is likely a better fit for the 'change' Dawnshard, and Preservation would be a better fit for the 'give' Dawnshard.

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Just now, Nameless said:

I don't think Preservation fits with change. the actual intent of Preservation seems to be stasis, not Preservation. In SH when Fuzz was at his weakest, he liked TLR because he didn't change, even though TLR was killing people. He could have tried to change things in order to Preserve the Skaa better, but he didn't want to. Ruin was destruction, but that was largely due to Ati's interpretation of the Shard's intent. once Sazed got the shard, he interpreted it more towards simple entropy.

I think Invention is likely a better fit for the 'change' Dawnshard, and Preservation would be a better fit for the 'give' Dawnshard.

How does Invention fit more than Virtuosity?

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Just now, Frustration said:

How does Invention fit more than Virtuosity?

What do you mean? I'm not talking about Virtuosity at all here.

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1 minute ago, Nameless said:

What do you mean? I'm not talking about Virtuosity at all here.

How does Invention: the creation of machines/devices, fit Change better than Virtuosity: the creation of art? What is the big difference between the two that makes one change and the other not?

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Just now, Frustration said:

How does Invention: the creation of machines/devices, fit Change better than Virtuosity: the creation of art? What is the big difference between the two that makes one change and the other not?

What makes Preservation: making sure stuff doesn't change, fit better than Invention: making new things?

Also, how does Cultivation: making stuff grow in a controlled way, fit better into natural than Whimsy: doing whatever you want.

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Just now, Nameless said:

What makes Preservation: making sure stuff doesn't change, fit better than Invention: making new things?

Simple, you used Change in you description of Preservation. The two concepts are intresically tied together. You can't have change if there isn't something for it to change from.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Also, how does Cultivation: making stuff grow in a controlled way, fit better into natural than Whimsy: doing whatever you want.

Because Odium and the fused call both Honor and Cultivation as gods of nature. Additionally Cultivation and Honor make Science which is about as natural as you get.

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4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Simple, you used Change in you description of Preservation. The two concepts are intresically tied together. You can't have change if there isn't something for it to change from.

Preservation could not make make a planet on his own. He needed Ruin for that.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because Odium and the fused call both Honor and Cultivation as gods of nature. Additionally Cultivation and Honor make Science which is about as natural as you get.

They are called gods of nature because they're both invested in Roshar so that their tones have become part of the planet. Science is not natural, it is about discovering the nature of the world in a controlled way.

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I'm still not convinced that Dawnshards, which act whereas Shards are, align to Shards in neat groups like this at all.

 

I think they explore an entirely different aspect of divinity that can or cannot in any individual case link up with a specific Intent but less prescriptively than this, and that the "verbs" they represent are things that should be inapplicable to God and that's how the combined use of them broke Adonalsium. Remember, they precede the Shards and their Intents as separate entities, probably.

 

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15 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Preservation could not make make a planet on his own. He needed Ruin for that.

Ruin couldn't make a planet on his own. He needed Preservation for that.

15 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They are called gods of nature because they're both invested in Roshar so that their tones have become part of the planet. Science is not natural, it is about discovering the nature of the world in a controlled way.

Going to have to disagree on that.

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If Intents are linked to Commands inherently though, then I'd strongly suggest one Command will be Survive. 

 

It's been hinted at in text (Kel's use of it in a semi-divine manner at various points, and now that has cross-Cosmeric importance) and in WoB (a Shard specifically noted to having an Intent linked to Survival) and it fits the scope of the Command known so far.

 

I wonder if Dawnshards can invert their Commands somehow, and if inverted Unity is what allows for Splintering? 

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30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ruin couldn't make a planet on his own. He needed Preservation for that.

Yeah. Because his intent is entropy. I don't see how this is relevant.

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10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah. Because his intent is entropy. I don't see how this is relevant.

You brought it up.

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You brought it up.

Ruin could change things. However, he also had the whole "kill everything" vibe going on, so he needed Preservation to to stop that. Think of Preservation + Ruin as Preservation + (Kill everything + change things). Preservation and kill everything cancel out, leaving change things.

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2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Ruin could change things. However, he also had the whole "kill everything" vibe going on, so he needed Preservation to to stop that. Think of Preservation + Ruin as Preservation + (Kill everything + change things). Preservation and kill everything cancel out, leaving change things.

I don't think that works anyway as Ruin is still a net negative force.

 

Maybe this will make more sense as why I think Preservation should be change.

Whimsy - All Change

Cultivation - Positive Change

Ruin - Negative Change

Preservation - No Change

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't think that works anyway as Ruin is still a net negative force.

 

Maybe this will make more sense as why I think Preservation should be change.

Whimsy - All Change

Cultivation - Positive Change

Ruin - Negative Change

Preservation - No Change

Whimsy is random change. Cultivation is controlled change. Ruin is breaking stuff down. Therefore, there should be a shard about building things up.

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Just now, Nameless said:

Whimsy is random change. Cultivation is controlled change. Ruin is breaking stuff down. Therefore, there should be a shard about building things up.

Virtuosity makes things, Dominion and Ambition try to make things bigger.

There are a lot of shards that fit that description.

Additionally Virtuosity and Invention are too similar to not be in the same Dawnshard.

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Virtuosity makes things, Dominion and Ambition try to make things bigger.

There are a lot of shards that fit that description.

Additionally Virtuosity and Invention are too similar to not be in the same Dawnshard.

So Invention is 'positive' change.

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1 minute ago, Nameless said:

So Invention is 'positive' change.

Which Cultivation already covers.

And which other shard are you cutting out to make room for Virtuosity?

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Just now, Frustration said:

Which Cultivation already covers.

And which other shard are you cutting out to make room for Virtuosity?

Cultivation does not cover positive change. Cultivation is controlled change. You can cultivate stuff for evil.

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Just now, Nameless said:

Cultivation does not cover positive change. Cultivation is controlled change. You can cultivate stuff for evil.

Ruin isn't evil but it is a negative, and you can Invent things for evil.

Quote

"I control all things that can be grown, nurtured." ~ A rough paraphrase of Cultivation.

Cultivation makes more of what is, a net positive.

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