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Tin coumpounding


FictionSpren

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Here's a thought, Tin compounders, could they simultaneously burn tin while storing, say hearing, to minimise the effects of loud noises? Could they become a tin savant with little or no negative effects? 

Could they become a savant without the constant burning by burning their metalminds? 

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

They probably could. I don't know why the heck anyone in their right mind would ever want to be a tin savant, but yeah.

I have no idea what your talking about. Spook is awesome. Besides, he could dodge a sword by feeling the air, almost like a seer. I find tin compounding would be super useful. Hearing the cocking of a gun, the rippling cloth of a Windrunner lashing, even hearing someones breathing. Super senses are overpowered.

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4 hours ago, FictionSpren said:

Could they become a tin savant with little or no negative effects?

My gut reaction is 'probably not'  on general principle since Brandon generally wants there to be consequences to becoming a savant and being able to bypass the negative effects that way would seem to be cheating. However, I think I can articulate a reason why in this case it wouldn't necessarily work regardless, at least not in the way I think you mean it to:

Since Spook's senses were dulled when he wasn't burning tin, my suspicion is that would be the baseline for feruchemical storage purposes rather than the enhanced senses you experience while burning the metal. Hence even if you store to whatever the lower limit of F-Tin is, the stored senses would be really weak and it wouldn't counteract the downsides of your savant-enhanced senses all that well.

Let's say for purposes of easy math that a tin savant who's not burning has senses a half as good as normal, while burning your senses are twice as good as normal and you can store half of what you have to give sense-wise. IE if you're storing to the max you see half as well as you would normally. Since a savant's baseline is already low, they'd be storing what amounts to one-quarter the sensory strength of whatever a typical person experiences in their daily life (50% of the 50% baseline, or 25%) and using that to counteract the doubled sensory strength they experience while burning. That would mean that they'd reduce their sensory strength by one-eight if they tried storing to the max while also burning tin. That would reduce the downsides of their enhanced senses by fraction, maybe enough to be helpful but certainly not enough to completely sidestep the downsides associated with being a tin savant.

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Could they become a savant without the constant burning by burning their metalminds? 

Brandon suggests that compounding can get you to savanthood for the feruchemical power, bypassing the mechanical differences that normally make it really hard to hit that point. If you could figure out how to use feruchemy to enhance allomancy in a similar way (or use some other Invested Art in a hack to get more power out of allomancy than you should be able to for a given amount of metal) you could probably push yourself to savanthood in the allomantic power without having to burn nearly as much, but that's not how compounding as we understand it now works.

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One of the points of savantism is that it's supposed to have consequences. It wouldn't fit to make all the consequences of allomantic savantism something you can avoid by just not burning the metal any more. We see what another type of savant looks like in Stormlight Archive and they definitely have consequences even when they aren't actively using the power that expanded their soul.

Also, Spook himself thinks that his senses become dull when he's not burning tin and that his entire body lacks sensation to the point that he runs through fire without feeling pain. That's not baseline sensation, that's definitely weaker than what someone would normally experience.

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On 9/15/2021 at 5:12 PM, Weltall said:

One of the points of savantism is that it's supposed to have consequences. It wouldn't fit to make all the consequences of allomantic savantism something you can avoid by just not burning the metal any more. We see what another type of savant looks like in Stormlight Archive and they definitely have consequences even when they aren't actively using the power that expanded their soul.

Also, Spook himself thinks that his senses become dull when he's not burning tin and that his entire body lacks sensation to the point that he runs through fire without feeling pain. That's not baseline sensation, that's definitely weaker than what someone would normally experience.

Note that the consequences of some forms of Allomantic Savantism are so mild as to be unnoticeable.

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On 9.09.2021 at 9:05 AM, Weltall said:

My gut reaction is 'probably not'  on general principle since Brandon generally wants there to be consequences to becoming a savant and being able to bypass the negative effects that way would seem to be cheating. However, I think I can articulate a reason why in this case it wouldn't necessarily work regardless, at least not in the way I think you mean it to:

But this is basicly cheating! You use one magic system to overcome limitations of other.

I dont see why this cant work. Tin compounding is even stronger than other compoundings, because works easy in both ways. You can store spared (during burning Tin) senses in metalminds, so you would have senses less than normaly enhanced or even totaly normal with some senses (remember, F-Tin is selective, unlike A-Tin), and you can also later burn those metalminds. Probably bad idea would be burn them in normal rate, unless you will have 9 more to store, but to enhance senses to Savant level you need just around 1/5th of normal speed of burning.

So I would say Tin Compounder can less likely become Savant, because he need to burn Tin much less intensive.

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  • 2 months later...
On 17/09/2021 at 10:25 PM, Ookla of Anarchy and Chaos said:

Tin compounders could probably be savants without having to be fully feeling the effects all the time. So they could act like a normal person in normal circumstances and still be able to pull a Spook.

I politely object to the ability to "pull a Spook" and argue about the point of being able to run through fire.

I always believed that Spook's predicament was extraordinary, that is even a tin savant would have to be burning tin a ridiculous amount. Like- If you could "act like a normal person in some circumstances" then, while burning Tin you couldn't be at Spook's level. He was literally burning tin 24/7 all the time. The tin burner (Who could act normal) wouldn't have the capacity to get to such heightened senses while presenting as a normal person. Spook couldn't act like a normal person ever. He had to blindfold himself to see properly. 

On 16/09/2021 at 5:12 AM, Weltall said:

Also, Spook himself thinks that his senses become dull when he's not burning tin and that his entire body lacks sensation to the point that he runs through fire without feeling pain. That's not baseline sensation, that's definitely weaker than what someone would normally experience.

Personally, I still think that Spook was feeling the same as a normal person. Considering he was burning tin 24/7, I think his perception of a "baseline sensation" would be much much lower than what he's used to. He'd be living with such heightened senses that he'd almost adapt to living like that. So much so that in comparison to daily life for him whilst burning, running through fire at the sense of a normal person is a breeze.

I don't know if that makes any sense but yeah.

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3 hours ago, FictionSpren said:

I always believed that Spook's predicament was extraordinary, that is even a tin savant would have to be burning tin a ridiculous amount. Like- If you could "act like a normal person in some circumstances" then, while burning Tin you couldn't be at Spook's level. He was literally burning tin 24/7 all the time. The tin burner (Who could act normal) wouldn't have the capacity to get to such heightened senses while presenting as a normal person. Spook couldn't act like a normal person ever. He had to blindfold himself to see properly. 

Explanations:

Savantify yourself. Then, if you want to seem normal some time like if you need to pretend to not be a Metalborn or you could die, burn Tin and store a bunch of the attributes from what you're burning, so you can seem like a mostly normal person to other normal persons but still have a stretched spirit web so you can pull a Spook and see the stars and hear everything and fight by knowing where the air is moving (that was super COOL) and also walk through fire.

Also if you store the attributes so you can seem normal sometimes, you can both walk through fire and see. :)

But mostly be Savantish. Because then you can pull a Spook.

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I don't see why being an allomantic tin savant is a necessary part of this discussion.  Allomantic senses can be stored in the tin minds and then compounded and pulled out at a rate that makes flaring tin a joke.  Save tin for when you need the benefits from that (seeing through the mists) and then compound everything else.  

The real power of being a tin compounder is the fact that you can skip savantism and get all the benefits of feeling the air move like daredevil on steroids.  You get to save on all of the negative traits of being so light sensitive that you have to keep yourself blindfolded and layers of earplugs. 

I had an idea for a tin compounding food critic.  Not only do you write reviews of the foods but your sense of taste would be so refined and acute that you could be the greatest thief of secret recipes ever.  Create the black market for award winning BBQ sauce secrets and make all the $$$.   

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21 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I had an idea for a tin compounding food critic.  Not only do you write reviews of the foods but your sense of taste would be so refined and acute that you could be the greatest thief of secret recipes ever.  Create the black market for award winning BBQ sauce secrets and make all the $$$.   

...that could hypothetically work. You could similarly have an art critic who could see the slightest flaws in a forgery. Or a music critic etc. 

21 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The real power of being a tin compounder is the fact that you can skip savantism and get all the benefits of feeling the air move like daredevil on steroids.  You get to save on all of the negative traits of being so light sensitive that you have to keep yourself blindfolded and layers of earplugs. 

with the savantism skipping though, I would argue that they'd have a fit from overstimulated senses. Like when Vin Duraluminium burned Tin she would have had similar effects to savantism, but no use for them because their overwhelming. Spook would have built up a resilience to this level of allomancy that he could be productive. If a compounded were to draw out senses at the same rate would they not have a similar breakdown to Vin? Or only be able to use one sense (For instance feeling the air move) at a time. 

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2 hours ago, FictionSpren said:

...that could hypothetically work. You could similarly have an art critic who could see the slightest flaws in a forgery. Or a music critic etc. 

with the savantism skipping though, I would argue that they'd have a fit from overstimulated senses. Like when Vin Duraluminium burned Tin she would have had similar effects to savantism, but no use for them because their overwhelming. Spook would have built up a resilience to this level of allomancy that he could be productive. If a compounded were to draw out senses at the same rate would they not have a similar breakdown to Vin? Or only be able to use one sense (For instance feeling the air move) at a time. 

As far as tin feruchemy goes I am pretty sure that each tin mind is specific for each sense.  So your ring that gives increases sight doesn't give increases smell or taste or hearing.  A hand full of rings would be needed to have access to all of your senses.  It has been thought that allomantic senses could hypothetically be stored as well.  (Imagine being able to compound atiums future sight)   

I think the reason I see tin compounding as a work around is just because you could completely isolate the sense you want to enhance.  That said being a feruchemical savant has its negative effects as well.  Even if you got used to feeling the vibrations in the air and didn't have to compensate with head wraps to dull your other senses I still think having that sensitive of skin and feeling would cause you potentially more issues later down the road.  Say an attack does finally land... its going to be excruciating.  Granted you can start storing feeling and probably move past that but if you have made this new normal of having that sense heightened all the time I can see it suddenly being gone as a massive liability.

There would definitely be some learning curve to get used to having those senses heightened so much.  A ferring without access to compounding would spend so long feeling nothing and have a burst of feeling everything that would likely be more of a shock to their system.  But a compounder has unlimited access to titrate up and down all the sensitivity they want long term.  That will give them more than enough time and ability to get used to having enhanced senses one sense at a time without the others suffering for it.  

Not saying A pewter wouldn't be a welcome help for those flashbang moments but compounding will at least allow you to choose specific senses to enhance at once and not blow up your eardrum to be able to see further down the street.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/9/2021 at 8:22 AM, Ookla the unintelligible said:

They probably could. I don't know why the heck anyone in their right mind would ever want to be a tin savant, but yeah.

U kidding me. Dude could like echolocate... know where ppl are and thier exact limb configurations and all just by sensing air pressure waves. See by nothing but diffused starlight. 

If those abilities could be divorced from the side-effects. Hell yeah I'm taking it. 

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1 minute ago, Friendshipspren said:

U kidding me. Dude could like echolocate... know where ppl are and thier exact limb configurations and all just by sensing air pressure waves. See by nothing but diffused starlight. 

If those abilities could be divorced from the side-effects. Hell yeah I'm taking it. 

Yeah, but how do you avoid the side effects?

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29 minutes ago, Friendshipspren said:

U kidding me. Dude could like echolocate... know where ppl are and thier exact limb configurations and all just by sensing air pressure waves. See by nothing but diffused starlight. 

If those abilities could be divorced from the side-effects. Hell yeah I'm taking it. 

It's the side effects part

I prefer to not have my eyes melted by electromagnetic radiation.

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5 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Yeah, but how do you avoid the side effects?

Wouldn't you be able to simply compound just the sense of feeling and hearing so that you didn't have to be constantly flaring A tin.  The whole point of compounding is tin is that you get savantism levels of a specific sense via compounding and then you can just increase your other senses allomantically as normal.  Really a tin savant gets to have every sense compounded and stored at such a high rate that they can selectively turn on and off at whatever level they want... whatever sense they want.  

You get all the benefits and very very little of the draw backs.  Each metalmind is specific to a specific sense.  Just ramp up the sense of touch to the point where you feel the air moving around you.   

That all said I think a portion of why Spook did well with that was because he was forced to set aside his reliance on eyesight.  I bet storing sight most of the time to near blindness would actually allow your body to better comprehend and use the other senses anyway.   So much of our processing power is wasted on sight that if you had other ways to know what was happening in the world it might be worth just learning to use them.  

Having daredevil hearing and spidey sense in one move with tin compounding.  

 

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1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Wouldn't you be able to simply compound just the sense of feeling and hearing so that you didn't have to be constantly flaring A tin.  The whole point of compounding is tin is that you get savantism levels of a specific sense via compounding and then you can just increase your other senses allomantically as normal.  Really a tin savant gets to have every sense compounded and stored at such a high rate that they can selectively turn on and off at whatever level they want... whatever sense they want.  

You get all the benefits and very very little of the draw backs.  Each metalmind is specific to a specific sense.  Just ramp up the sense of touch to the point where you feel the air moving around you.   

That all said I think a portion of why Spook did well with that was because he was forced to set aside his reliance on eyesight.  I bet storing sight most of the time to near blindness would actually allow your body to better comprehend and use the other senses anyway.   So much of our processing power is wasted on sight that if you had other ways to know what was happening in the world it might be worth just learning to use them.  

Having daredevil hearing and spidey sense in one move with tin compounding.  

If you can compound tin, you can get the senses of a savant without being a savant. Is that what you're saying?

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45 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

If you can compound tin, you can get the senses of a savant without being a savant. Is that what you're saying?

Pretty much.  

Edit: 

I assume that the more difficult one would be sight.  We know typically the enhancement from sight through allomancy is different than through feruchemy.  But feruchemy can store allomantic senses so you should be able to compound the sight enhancements from A tin as well.  

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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23 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Yeah, but how do you avoid the side effects?

 

22 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

It's the side effects part

I prefer to not have my eyes melted by electromagnetic radiation.

Well if you have F-tin then you can store the excess amounts of sight , sound etc. Or you can flare for a bit , store the effects instead of experiencing them then tap them in the required rate when needed. 

18 hours ago, Ookla of Anarchy and Chaos said:

that actually happens in the brain not the ears iirc

I think he was able to sense tiny changes in air pressure and distinguish positions of ppl by that , not by hearing reflected sound waves but either way he was able to sense ppl without seeing them  so i guess tin did improve that part of his brain . 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 15/12/2021 at 8:27 AM, Ookla of Anarchy and Chaos said:

In the dark, if I try, I can tell if there's a wall close to my face. It somehow sounds different from open air. That's a sense. You could store and intensify that.

You mean proprioception? I’m pretty sure it’s cannon this can be stored with F-tin along with other more vague senses.
Also that’s a completely over the top power, my theory to why atium is so dangerous is because it increases your ability to use the new information and proprioception as a biproduct.

it gave vin the power to grab a crossbow bolt which moved through her, that’s gotta be better special awareness and perception. 
 Honestly if I were a tin compounder or even feruchemist this is the sense I’d be compounding.

 

(note because I’m a smartass, spider mans spider sense is basically proprioception overdose I’m pretty sure) 

Edited by FictionSpren
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23 hours ago, FictionSpren said:

You mean proprioception? I’m pretty sure it’s cannon this can be stored with F-tin along with other more vague senses.
Also that’s a completely over the top power, my theory to why atium is so dangerous is because it increases your ability to use the new information and proprioception as a biproduct.

it gave vin the power to grab a crossbow bolt which moved through her, that’s gotta be better special awareness and perception. 
 Honestly if I were a tin compounder or even feruchemist this is the sense I’d be compounding.

 

(note because I’m a smartass, spider mans spider sense is basically proprioception overdose I’m pretty sure) 

I won't lie this is the first time I have heard the term but I am super intrigued.  I always thought atium simply enhanced the mental speed to be able to make up for seeing the future.   This idea you have put forth makes me question that a bit.  

In my mind with senses granted by other metals being able to be stored in tin minds I figured that the future sight of atium could be compounded but not the enhanced ability to comprehend and use it.  If atium does indeed just increase proprioception to allow you to process that then it could stand that a tin compounder with just a second of atium burn could then compound the full power of a seer nearly infinitely.  Some have floated the idea that all God metals are able to be burned by all humans.  (So this idea only stems from those sort of stray thoughts as well).   

It also makes me curious if this is part of the "sense of balance" that is enhanced by pewter.  Seems like it is in an athletic ballpark.  

I always figured to copy the effects of a seer you would need to be able to have zinc boosted brain power plus the future sight.   Perhaps tin can replicate it with just compounding.  

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