Great War in the Cosmere? What does El mean? [Discuss]

[Legui01010]

Hello everyone, I'm kinda new at this (just joined the 17th Shard, so please a have a bit of patience if you can).

So I've been over my head, rereading the last chapters of Rhythm of War, alongside the Musings of El, and I don't know what to expect. It has been made obvious that Hoid fooled Taravangian (Odium) into making him believe that he erased Hoid's short term memories, and that Hoid doesn't suspect that Rayse is dead. I've read in another post a theory of Hoid playing a Reverse Uno card on Taravangian, making him try for a tie in the contest of Champions. This is very interesting to me, but also there are a lot of things that don't quite fit for me; we know Taravangian wants "to save them all" (which I assume he refers to all the people of Roshar, both humans and singers), could he be referring to Cultivation, knowing that she has her own agenda? Or is he referring to Hoid's plan (this sounds less appealing to me, since he just erased his memories stored in his breaths and then left him like that)? Could El be referring to this when he spoke about a Great War?

If you got to this part, I thank you all for reading, thanks again for welcoming me to the community!

Edited September 7, 2021 by Legui01010

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Legui01010 said:

It has been made obvious that Hoid fooled Taravangian (Odium) into making him believe that he erased Hoid's short term memories, and that Hoid doesn't suspect that Rayse is dead.

I don't believe it was obvious.

1 hour ago, Legui01010 said:

we know Taravangian wants "to save them all" (which I assume he refers to all the people of Roshar, both humans and singers), could he be referring to Cultivation, knowing that she has her own agenda? Or is he referring to Hoid's plan (this sounds less appealing to me, since he just erased his memories stored in his breaths and then left him like that)? Could El be referring to this when he spoke about a Great War?

He means to save everyone, reguardless of planet, Roshar, Scadrial, Taldain, Nalthis etc.

[Weltall]

Welcome to the Shard!

Yeah, when we see Taravangian's thoughts at the end he's very clearly talking about other planets which he thinks need 'saving'. This also comes up when Rayse was negotiating with Dalinar and he makes it very clear that his ambitions extend far beyond Roshar and he really wants to leave so he can get going with those plans, or at least  be able to move forward with those plans even if he's still stuck in the system. Taravangian seems to have picked those plans up after taking over the position as Odium, even if he won't be doing it for the same reasons.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Weltall

[Legui01010]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I don't believe it was obvious.

He means to save everyone, reguardless of planet, Roshar, Scadrial, Taldain, Nalthis etc.

Sorry for the "obvious" part, my bad. 

 

46 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Welcome to the Shard!

Yeah, when we see Taravangian's thoughts at the end he's very clearly talking about other planets which he thinks need 'saving'. This also comes up when Rayse was negotiating with Dalinar and he makes it very clear that his ambitions extend far beyond Roshar and he really wants to leave so he can get going with those plans, or at least  be able to move forward with those plans even if he's still stuck in the system. Taravangian seems to have picked those plans up after taking over the position as Odium, even if he won't be doing it for the same reasons.

I can understand Taravangian's desire to save everyone, but just save them from Cultivation? She who needs his help to achieve her goals? 

Also, after the Trial of Adolin, Maya admitted that the old Radiants and their Spren broke their oaths in order to stop something worse that was to come, does this have any relation to how Taravagian intends to save Roshar, alongside the other worlds?

[Weltall]

We really don't know why T-Odium is doing what he is right now so it's hard to say what he's planning to 'save' everybody from. The brief glimpse we get inside his thoughts suggests that he believes he's saving the Cosmere from chaos and rule by 'broken gods' so it seems he thinks that he can do better than the other Shards have been. However, it's entirely possible there's more to the story than that.

One parallel that's interesting on a quick skim but I haven't had time to really dive into the theology to confirm it: Apparently the Mormon conception of Lucifer is somewhat similar to this, where he came up with a plan that would have resulted in the salvation of all humans but without moral agency (and in return he'd get all the glory as well). When God rejected it, Lucifer rebelled. That sounds on first glance very similar to Odium in general being very selfish, Taravangian's desire to save everyone and Rayse!Odium trying to get people to surrender their moral agency to him, like we saw when he tried tempting Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Weltall

[mathiau]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

He means to save everyone, reguardless of planet, Roshar, Scadrial, Taldain, Nalthis etc.

Every humans at least, it's not sure he cares about the Singers or Fain in any ways.

[Legui01010]

17 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Every humans at least, it's not sure he cares about the Singers or Fain in any ways.

T-Odium has placed El in a position of power, at the very least we know that he favors him. For me it would seem weird that he declared to save everyone if it didn't include the Singers. 

 

[mathiau]

3 hours ago, Legui01010 said:

T-Odium has placed El in a position of power, at the very least we know that he favors him.

R-Odium has placed many Fused in positions of power where they would go and try to annihilate humanity yet his plan was to have the humans become strong which implies he intended to dump them at some point. Honestly sacrificing entire races to save parts of humanity does seem very Taravangian like. If he can save people from other races he'd probably do it if they can be useful to humanity (Truesprens of Roshars should be safe for example) but it'd probably only be a secondary objective compared to save humans.

Quote

For me it would seem weird that he declared to save everyone if it didn't include the Singers.

Quote

Q: For what essential must we strive? A: The essential of preservation, to shelter a seed of humanity through the coming storm. Q: What cost must we bear? A: The cost is irrelevant. Mankind must survive. Our burden is that of the species, and all other considerations are but dust by comparison.

Catechism of the Back of the Flowered Painting: Paragraph 1

Quote

"You must become king. Of Everything"

Tenets of Instruction, Back of the Footboard: Paragraph 1

These are two extracts of the Diagram, the thing Taravangian has been striving to archive for years, and still is. I don't see him committing random genocides for no reasons but the Fains better have stopped their war with humans on Yolen by the time he gets there.

[Weltall]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't see him committing random genocides for no reasons but the Fains better have stopped their war with humans on Yolen by the time he gets there.

Given how few people apparently still live on Yolen, I think the whole trune/fain thing became moot a long time ago.

[ConfusedCow]

Pretty sure the end is undisputed god like power and the means are killing anyone who disagrees.  Somehow that's always where the end justifies the means gets you.  After which, I'm sure Mr. T will host an elegant cosmere wide garden party.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, ConfusedCow said:

After which, I'm sure Mr. T will host an elegant cosmere wide garden party.

And the catering consists entirely of zucchini and fish sticks?

[Aspiring Writer]

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't believe it was obvious.

... Wait, that's canon? Hoid was just pretending? Where was this?

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

R-Odium has placed many Fused in positions of power where they would go and try to annihilate humanity yet his plan was to have the humans become strong which implies he intended to dump them at some point.

He had to. You really cannot build a huge army out of Singers. They cannot change forms outside Roshar, meaning they cannot reproduce. If you want an army large enough to conquer the Cosmere, it will have to be human for ecological reasons alone. Hence that tells you very little.

[Legui01010]

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

... Wait, that's canon? Hoid was just pretending? Where was this?

"Odium’s presence had remained behind. Was … something wrong?

Don’t trouble yourself, he thought. This is working.

After all, Wit’s first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined."

This are the last paragraphs of RoW, even knowing that he couldn't find a true pitch, he still reassures himself that everything has gone accordingly. Notice that he said Odium, not Rayse. Furthermore, Hoid has lived even longer than the other Shards, and he knew Odium was capable of damaging him in this manner (erasing his short term memories contained in his Breaths), he would never expose himself to such damage unless he planned for it. 

I believe Hoid wants T-Odium to seek for a tie, it was implied on the book a few times (though I had to reread to be sure), the reason behind that however is beyond me.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Legui01010 said:

After all, Wit’s first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined.

The key word here is really 'imagined'. Hoid has no particular reason to suspect that the Shard of Odium will change hands so it's not something he would have specifically planned for. We know from both his own admission and WoB that Hoid's use of Fortune is not very clear; it tells him where he needs to be but not why he needs to be there. There's absolutely no indication that it could tell him 'Oh by the way, Taravangian is now Odium, you might wanna adjust your plans accordingly'. This is also a situation where we shouldn't assume that Renarin's own futuresight might have helped because the scrambling effect works both ways and we know that Taravangian was spending a lot of time looking into the possibilities of the future after his Ascension (and he knows about Renarin and just how dangerous that effect can be).

In Hoid's first run through the conversation he's clearly surprised when he puts the pieces together and realizes that 'Odium' and 'Rayse' are no longer synonymous. He imagines the conversation going a certain way and the first time through it does not. The second time, T-Odium is much more careful and doesn't say the thing that made Hoid suspicious, hence the conversation that time went as Hoid expected it to have gone the first time.

Now, I do think that Hoid planned for some possible contingencies and the fact that he had exactly enough Breath that any meddling dropped him below the Second Heightening is highly suggestive, but that does not make 'Hoid obviously tricked T-Odium' canon. It just means that at the very least Hoid has a way to figure out that something happened, even if he can't know exactly what it was.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Weltall

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Legui01010 said:

After all, Wit’s first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined."

I mean, he says that the first time too. 

Quote

He started whistling as Odium’s presence remained behind. That had gone exactly as he’d imagined. Except that last part. He slowed, turning the words over in his mind.

Was Rayse growing more thoughtful? Wit didn’t need to worry, did he? After all this, Odium would be safely imprisoned, no matter what happened. There was no way out.…

Unless …

 

[Legui01010]

15 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Now, I do think that Hoid planned for some possible contingencies and the fact that he had exactly enough Breath that any meddling dropped him below the Second Heightening is highly suggestive, but that does not make 'Hoid obviously tricked T-Odium' canon. It just means that at the very least Hoid has a way to figure out that something happened, even if he can't know exactly what it was.

What are you thoughts on the contract though? You think that T-Odium will go for the tie? After all there's just the condition of what happens if Dalinar or Odium wins the Contest.

[Inquisitor #5]

2 hours ago, Legui01010 said:

What are you thoughts on the contract though? You think that T-Odium will go for the tie? After all there's just the condition of what happens if Dalinar or Odium wins the Contest.

It's heavily implied, almost too heavily I'd say.

I'm honestly worried Brandon won't be able to surprise us at the contest, simply because every outcome is expected.

We also don't know what the results would be, does that mean the contract is Null and Void? No clause was fullfilled, so it's possible it'd remain on the table.

Why should it stop being in play unless fulfilled or superseded? An amusing occurence that could leave both sides in breach of the agreement, as they are no longer able to send champions the specified time.

There's also the question of how one forces a draw in a contest to the death.

Unless both champions die in the exact same instant of course, but that seems hard to pull off.

And if it's all in good faith, as Rayse implies, then things like Dalinar's forces attacking Odium's champion shouldn't count against him as long as they were ordered not to, and any deliberate machinations to make the other side attack your champion should come back to you, so it'd be hard to engineer a genuine breach of contract.

 

¤_¤

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Legui01010 said:

"Odium’s presence had remained behind. Was … something wrong?

Don’t trouble yourself, he thought. This is working.

After all, Wit’s first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined."

This are the last paragraphs of RoW, even knowing that he couldn't find a true pitch, he still reassures himself that everything has gone accordingly. Notice that he said Odium, not Rayse. Furthermore, Hoid has lived even longer than the other Shards, and he knew Odium was capable of damaging him in this manner (erasing his short term memories contained in his Breaths), he would never expose himself to such damage unless he planned for it. 

I believe Hoid wants T-Odium to seek for a tie, it was implied on the book a few times (though I had to reread to be sure), the reason behind that however is beyond me.

here's the thing though, the same emphisis is put on exactly the first time the conversation ends.

[mathiau]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

He had to. You really cannot build a huge army out of Singers. They cannot change forms outside Roshar, meaning they cannot reproduce. If you want an army large enough to conquer the Cosmere, it will have to be human for ecological reasons alone. Hence that tells you very little.

My point exactly. If Rayse can fake being the god of a specy mostly useless to him then so can Taravangian.

(Dullform and Slaveform can reproduce)

[Legui01010]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

here's the thing though, the same emphisis is put on exactly the first time the conversation ends.

Yep, though I strongly believe that Hoid wouldn't leave himself so defenseless against this, without having contingencies, like Weltall said above. I guess the only way for us to know what Hoid is up to is by waiting for Stormlight 5 to come out, or Dragonsteel.

I want to add that I'm also surprised by El's reaction at the restoration of the Sibling, basically celebrating the failure of Raboniel in trying to corrupt it and Navani bonding it.

[Legui01010]

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

My point exactly. If Rayse can fake being the god of a specy mostly useless to him then so can Taravangian.

This brings up another doubt of mine, maybe you could answer it. At the very beginning, Honor and Cultivation were the Gods of the Singers. What made the Singers change their devotion to Odium?

Something that's been bothering me since Oathbringer is the part where Dalinar summons Honor's Perpendicularity, Odium was shocked and said "WE KILLED YOU", obviously referring to Honor. But since Brandon has a thing for wording things, this happen to occur to me: who does Rayse mean by we? Does he refer to the Fused or the Unmade? Or does he refer to someone of equal power helping him? My first assumption was Cultivation, for she has plans of her own since a long time, any thoughts on this?

[NattyBo]

Regarding the end of ROW and whether Hoid was conned or did the conning, I’m in the latter camp. I only skimmed the thread but I’d also like to mention the theory floating around that the coin Hoid uses in the scene immediately prior to confronting Odium is an unkeyed metalmind which had backups of his memories, meaning he anticipated Odium attacking his breaths.

[mathiau]

6 minutes ago, Legui01010 said:

This brings up another doubt of mine, maybe you could answer it. At the very beginning, Honor and Cultivation were the Gods of the Singers. What made the Singers change their devotion to Odium?

We don't know much about that time so when can fully know but it probably have something to do with the war Jezrien and Nale where fighting on opposing sides

Quote

Something that's been bothering me since Oathbringer is the part where Dalinar summons Honor's Perpendicularity, Odium was shocked and said "WE KILLED YOU", obviously referring to Honor. But since Brandon has a thing for wording things, this happen to occur to me: who does Rayse mean by we? Does he refer to the Fused or the Unmade? Or does he refer to someone of equal power helping him? My first assumption was Cultivation, for she has plans of her own since a long time, any thoughts on this?

If "you" is indeed Honour then it's probably just a majestic plural (it can be Kora since she still loves Tan). But when Venli asks Dalinar who he is le doesn't say

"Honour" but "Unity" so I don't actually know.

(also, please avoid double posting)

[Legui01010]

11 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

Regarding the end of ROW and whether Hoid was conned or did the conning, I’m in the latter camp. I only skimmed the thread but I’d also like to mention the theory floating around that the coin Hoid uses in the scene immediately prior to confronting Odium is an unkeyed metalmind which had backups of his memories, meaning he anticipated Odium attacking his breaths.

Kinda like the coin that Wax found after his wedding with Steris, the one that held the memories of Kelsier. Very interesting point, thanks.

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

If "you" is indeed Honour then it's probably just a majestic plural (it can be Kora since she still loves Tan). But when Venli asks Dalinar who he is le doesn't say

"Honour" but "Unity" so I don't actually know.

Unity could be a Splinter of Honor, maybe held by the Stormfather after the Splintering of Honor? Also, another reason for me to believe that Cultivation had some implication in the death of Tanavast, is the fact that not all Vessels are aligned with the Intent of the Shard they posses, resulting in the mental and emotional change of the Vessel, the best example of this is Ati when he held Ruin, he was supposed to be one of the kindest persons there was, until he Ascended.

9 minutes ago, mathiau said:

(also, please avoid double posting)

Sorry for that, I'll avoid it next time.