Odium, the Fused, and yet another attempt at mapping the Unmade to the Radiant Orders

[KaladinWorldsinger]

11 hours ago, Zoey said:

Ba is related to Bah, meaning child

How do we know this?

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

How do we know this?

Rysn Bah Vistim, is how Rysn describes herself in one of her interlude chapters and talks about how she is leagally Vistim's daughter.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Rysn Bah Vistim, is how Rysn describes herself in one of her interlude chapters and talks about how she is leagally Vistim's daughter.

Shieet

Time to start another reread

Edit: Also that sounds a lot like the shin naming system, do thaylens do that too?

Edited January 10, 2022 by KaladinWorldsinger

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2022-01-10 at 2:57 AM, Zoey said:

Well, we know Sibling is basically the child of the light of Honor and Cultivation, and also, as seen in another thread

I'll quibble child of the Lights of Honor and Cultivation. Child of Honor and Cultivation, yes. Child of the Lights, unknown.

On 2022-01-10 at 2:57 AM, Zoey said:

Ba is related to Bah, meaning child

AFAIK, we don't actually know that 1), bah means child, 2), the Ba in BAM is related to the Thaylen bah.

We have the data point of Rysn bah-Vstim, but nothing else.

We also know the Alethi for "child of," the particle -()en, presumably. Seen in "child of peace," Oro(d)en. Based on the fact that Adolin and Kaladin are Adoda and Kalak, respectively, plus "born unto," given as -in, but both add a different sound between the base word and the ending. Therefore Ado(l)in and Kala(d)in, and I'm assuming that this is generally true for ending particles.

Alethi and Thaylen end up with very different words if both of these mean "child of."

Now, Alethi and Thaylen aren't closely related, and I will concede that the proto-Vorin word could be something like *ba(h)n, given that Alethi is built to be Semitic, which means that the rest of the Vorin languages also should be. Basing it on the Hebrew "Ben-" (בן) and Arabic "ibn" (ابن). 

If this is close to accurate, Alethi and Thaylen diverge before the Alethi vowel shift (Central Vorin vowel shift? Somebody ask Brandon if Veden also has the a->e shift.)

In any case, we don't have enough information to make the declarative statement that this is 100% true.

On 2022-01-10 at 2:57 AM, Zoey said:

Ado is close to Adoda, meaning light

Yes. Just as in Adolin and Zeradoreh (Stormlight).

Presumably also something like "Javadovah" for Lifelight.

On 2022-01-10 at 2:57 AM, Zoey said:

Mishram is close to Mishim, the Moon of Cultivation, and also seems to have the -ram, of Maram, meaning Honor. 

Yes.

Though that makes me wonder, if Mishim is providing the meaning of Cultivation, why doesn't Nomon line up with "maram" in any way? 

On 2022-01-10 at 2:57 AM, Zoey said:

She does seem closely connected with the Singers, who we know were previously on the side of Honor and Cultivation.

I disagree, I don't think we have enough data to say for sure.

On 2022-01-10 at 2:57 AM, Zoey said:

So likely, Ba-Ado-Mishram was created before the Sibling

This I agree with, she might even be a spren like the Stormfather, one that wasn't really created.

On 2022-01-10 at 2:57 AM, Zoey said:

Well, if we do take Mythica seriously

Quote

 I find Ba-Ado-Mishram to be the most interesting of the Unmade. She is said to have been keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces, their commander during some of the Desolations. I do not know how this relates to the ancient god of the enemy, named Odium

This is exactly what I'm getting at, we don't know that Mythica is basing this on anything more than the False Desolation.

On 2022-01-10 at 2:57 AM, Zoey said:

She was definitely amongst the higher ranking of the Unmade, it appears.

Yes, that is reasonable. I just don't think Mythica can be counted as an entirely reliable source.

Makes me wonder about how much of a hierarchy there is among the Unmade. They generally seem to not act within the command structure of Odium's forces.

On 2022-01-10 at 2:57 AM, Zoey said:

Well, she did seem to. She had a great effect on the Sibling, and also

Quote

"As one who has suffered for so many centuries … as one whom it broke … please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren.

For I believe that in confining her, we have caused a greater wound to Roshar than any ever realized."

Rhythm of War, Chapter 97, Epigraph

Definitely had a large effect on Spren.

Yes, but I think that this is entirely a result of the backlash of the sealing, not an active part of her power set.

And I think that her sealing's effect on the Sibling isn't separate from its effect on other spren.

 

¤_¤

[Benkinsky]

Just jumping in here real quick cause I remembered this thread exists and how much fun it was and still is. @Inquisitor #5@Zoey and everyone else, you're doing a good job, it's very fun to read. I'm still hyped for the Knights Enlightened, let's see if I return to the discussion properly with a reread or when W&W is less on my mind

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 1/22/2022 at 5:12 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

We have the data point of Rysn bah-Vstim, but nothing else.

Something worth noting on this, the reason why I specifically took it to be "child of" is the following quote:

Quote

She set up the tripod. It had been five months since Vstim became her babsk and she his apprentice. He’d been good to her. Not all babsk were; by tradition, he was more than just her master. He was her father, legally, until he pronounced her ready to become a merchant on her own.

So he's legally considered her father, and her name now has "bah-Vstim" appended to the end, so to me there's a strong implication there (and "babsk" may itself come from a similar root word). But yes, it is indeed unconfirmed.

On 1/22/2022 at 5:12 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

If this is close to accurate, Alethi and Thaylen diverge before the Alethi vowel shift (Central Vorin vowel shift? Somebody ask Brandon if Veden also has the a->e shift.)

Veden seems to include the shift (Shallan refers to Kalak as "Kelek"), as does Natan (Puuli also thinks about "Kelek"), but Herdazian appears not to (the Mink swears by "Kalak"), so the shift appears to be a common but not universal trait. (Someone named Eth also swears by "Kalak", but as far as I can tell we don't know his nationality.) Thaylen is a more distant relative to Alethi than Herdazian, so I'd say most likely the shift happened after the two languages diverged.

On 1/22/2022 at 5:12 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

that the proto-Vorin word could be something like *ba(h)n, given that Alethi is built to be Semitic, which means that the rest of the Vorin languages also should be. Basing it on the Hebrew "Ben-" (בן) and Arabic "ibn" (ابن).

That seems reasonable to me, since those are two of the languages he's specifically cited as sources, yeah.

On 1/22/2022 at 5:12 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Though that makes me wonder, if Mishim is providing the meaning of Cultivation, why doesn't Nomon line up with "maram" in any way? 

I've wondered about this as well, my current guess is that it has to do with religion. If originally the moons were possibly named after the Shards, then as Vorinism shifted towards monotheism and began to drop the name "Honor", they may have started to use another name (perhaps "Nomon" relates to "Almighty" or to one of his ten names [would be nice if we knew more than one to try and guess...]? if so, it wouldn't even necessarily have to be an intentional change as much as just the association remaining through the evolutions for a while, and so people organically applying his new names to "his" moon).

On 1/22/2022 at 5:12 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Makes me wonder about how much of a hierarchy there is among the Unmade. They generally seem to not act within the command structure of Odium's forces.

If I had to guess, there's probably not a true chain of command, but the more intelligent ones may occasionally be able to get the others to do what they want by arguing with, bluffing, and/or tricking them, at least when Odium isn't directly supervising.

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2022-01-30 at 5:34 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Something worth noting on this, the reason why I specifically took it to be "child of" is the following quote:

Quote

She set up the tripod. It had been five months since Vstim became her babsk and she his apprentice. He’d been good to her. Not all babsk were; by tradition, he was more than just her master. He was her father, legally, until he pronounced her ready to become a merchant on her own.

Yeah, I'm perfectly willing to accept that it signifies a parent-child relationship. Or master-apprentice. Or probably both intertwined.

On 2022-01-30 at 5:34 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

So he's legally considered her father, and her name now has "bah-Vstim" appended to the end, so to me there's a strong implication there

This is fair.

On 2022-01-30 at 5:34 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

and "babsk" may itself come from a similar root word

I shouldn't be suprised at the person who dissected Ba-Ado-Mishram also hitting on this. 

Yes, I definitely think that babsk shares a root. Heh, I keep having to adjust my pronounciation of Stormlight words based on realisations like this. In this case bah-bsk, rather than bab-sk.

I'd assume, based on this and rebsk, that the "bsk" morpheme means something along the lines of possesor, owner, master.

Sidenote, I love how this thread has gone from the nature of the Unmade, Fused and Voidbinding, and theorising on the motivation and capabilities of Rayse/Odium, to discussing Vorin linguistics. I may have a huge inability to drop interesting lines of thought.

On 2022-01-30 at 5:34 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Veden seems to include the shift (Shallan refers to Kalak as "Kelek"), as does Natan (Puuli also thinks about "Kelek"), but Herdazian appears not to (the Mink swears by "Kalak"), so the shift appears to be a common but not universal trait.

Thank you! This is so helpful.

I think something like Central Vorin vowel shift is accurate then, including West Vorin and East Vorin, but not North or South Vorin.

On 2022-01-30 at 5:34 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I've wondered about this as well, my current guess is that it has to do with religion. If originally the moons were possibly named after the Shards, then as Vorinism shifted towards monotheism and began to drop the name "Honor", they may have started to use another name (perhaps "Nomon" relates to "Almighty" or to one of his ten names

Hmm, possible.

I feel like there has to have been some drift in "Mishim" as well, be it spelling or sound, because otherwise giving it as "Mishim" and not "Cultivation" feels like an unfair withholding of information.

I also find the "rebranding" of a moon strange. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind, but that it feels like something that would "fossilize" linguistically. Like how several days of the week in English still refer to Germanic gods.

Though I suppose it might have been a similar thing to how the reading of "YHWH" (יהוה) was lost. IIRC, only the Kohen Gadol (Jewish high priest) was allowed to speak it, but only under very specific circumstances. When texts were read aloud, "YHWH" was substituted with "adonai" (אֲדוֹנָי), meaning lord.

One snag in this is of course that people seem to have no problem saying either "honor" or "Honor." A possible explanation might be how the language and religion has drifted. Nobody seems to automatically equate "Honor" and "Almighty," so any taboo around speaking the word "merem" might have been abandoned as the religion evolved, but not before people had started substituting the name of the moon.

On 2022-01-30 at 5:34 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

would be nice if we knew more than one to try and guess...

Wouldn't it just?

On 2022-01-30 at 5:34 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

If I had to guess, there's probably not a true chain of command, but the more intelligent ones may occasionally be able to get the others to do what they want by arguing with, bluffing, and/or tricking them, at least when Odium isn't directly supervising.

Yeah, that sounds reasonable to me.

I can believe Odium ordering one to be subordinate to another for specific operations, like Thaylen City or Urithiru, but not that there's a rigid chain of command.

I'd also guess that they are generally outside the chain of command of Odium's forces. Mishram might be a competent enough strategist/tactician to be given a local command, but I don't think she'd be appointed supreme commander. 

I'd say they probably fall somewhere between commando units and superweapons. (Ashertmarn was enough to severely undermine a major city, for example.)

 

¤_¤

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 2/8/2022 at 0:31 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yes, I definitely think that babsk shares a root. Heh, I keep having to adjust my pronounciation of Stormlight words based on realisations like this. In this case bah-bsk, rather than bab-sk.

Yeahh I just have given up on pronunciation

On 2/8/2022 at 0:31 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd assume, based on this and rebsk, that the "bsk" morpheme means something along the lines of possesor, owner, master.

Ah, nice catch! That seems likely.

On 2/8/2022 at 0:31 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I feel like there has to have been some drift in "Mishim" as well, be it spelling or sound, because otherwise giving it as "Mishim" and not "Cultivation" feels like an unfair withholding of information.

Yeah that's fair. Then again, Cultivation seems to be a well-known figure going off Shallan's "Mother Cultivation can be hateful" bit and Navani and Lift both using "Father of Storms and Mother of the World" in idioms, and we still heard her name only three times prior to Oathbringer and have very little understanding of her mythological role... So Brandon's totally willing to hide info on cultural associations with things even though it's common knowledge all our characters know because it would spoil reveals, lmao.

On 2/8/2022 at 0:31 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also find the "rebranding" of a moon strange. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind, but that it feels like something that would "fossilize" linguistically. Like how several days of the week in English still refer to Germanic gods.

Though I suppose it might have been a similar thing to how the reading of "YHWH" (יהוה) was lost. IIRC, only the Kohen Gadol (Jewish high priest) was allowed to speak it, but only under very specific circumstances. When texts were read aloud, "YHWH" was substituted with "adonai" (אֲדוֹנָי), meaning lord.

One snag in this is of course that people seem to have no problem saying either "honor" or "Honor." A possible explanation might be how the language and religion has drifted. Nobody seems to automatically equate "Honor" and "Almighty," so any taboo around speaking the word "merem" might have been abandoned as the religion evolved, but not before people had started substituting the name of the moon.

Definitely a valid point, and this is definitely the weakest link in the theory. I was thinking of it less as a taboo and more just them going "Honor's Moon" to "Almighty (or other name)'s Moon" because they actively associate(d) it with the god at the time, but that's also a possibility.

On 2/8/2022 at 0:31 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Mishram might be a competent enough strategist/tactician to be given a local command, but I don't think she'd be appointed supreme commander. 

Agreed, especially since Odium would know full well that some of the Unmade are crafty and desire power. Now, if an Unmade were to appear to someone and give them an order, they'd probably obey no matter what lol. But I'd guess they ordinarily weren't officially in direct command of too much, if for no other reason than Rayse being wary of trusting them.