Odium, the Fused, and yet another attempt at mapping the Unmade to the Radiant Orders

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Thougj I do have one question, what's the singer gemheart made of? It must be a polestone, judging by its properties. It must also allow a lot of kinds of spren inside it.

Afaik, it doesn't line up with any of the polestones. Milky white, hard to distinguish from the bone marrow.

[Halyo_Alex]

8 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Afaik, it doesn't line up with any of the polestones. Milky white, hard to distinguish from the bone marrow.

Sounds like plain old Quartz to me, or at least the white variety in minecraft...

[CameronUluvara]

Raboniel explained why the Fused don’t use Adhesion-they don’t believe it’s a real surge. She said that the surges must be natural forces of Cultivation, made law by Honor, and therefore a surge purely of Honor (which is Adhesion) can’t exist. She and Navani had a whole conversation about this in RoW that explains all this stuff. Adhesion isn’t a natural force like Gravitation or Friction, and it doesn’t have spren; only those of Honor have access to it. That’s why Odium can’t replicate it, except maybe if he had succeeded in corrupting the Sibling.

And, of course, the number of Odium is 9. It wouldn’t be right to have 10 kinds of Fused.

And why would Odium grant Yelig-nar’s powers to his followers, but not the other Unmade? Everybody calls him the most dangerous, if he can be controlled surely the others can. It’s a really weird conspiracy that he would intentionally hold back a something that could create a Bondsmith type thing working for him.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, CameronUluvara said:

Raboniel explained why the Fused don’t use Adhesion-they don’t believe it’s a real surge. She said that the surges must be natural forces of Cultivation, made law by Honor, and therefore a surge purely of Honor (which is Adhesion) can’t exist. She and Navani had a whole conversation about this in RoW that explains all this stuff. Adhesion isn’t a natural force like Gravitation or Friction, and it doesn’t have spren; only those of Honor have access to it. That’s why Odium can’t replicate it, except maybe if he had succeeded in corrupting the Sibling.

Bindspren are a thing.

And we have evidence to suggest Cultivation has a truest surge, but the Fused have progression.

[Inquisitor #5]

2 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

Raboniel explained why the Fused don’t use Adhesion-they don’t believe it’s a real surge.

Do the Fused not have Adhesion because they don't accept it, or do they not accept it because they don't have it?

2 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

She said that the surges must be natural forces of Cultivation, made law by Honor, and therefore a surge purely of Honor (which is Adhesion) can’t exist.

She also said that Surges exist because things must fall to the ground.

I'm not sure the lady older than the idea of science, who may well have gone a bit off over the millennia and who may be spouting Odium propaganda is an entirely trustworthy source.

Odium has a vested interest in convincing his servants that Adhesion isn't really a Surge, it both legitimises the Fused and delegitimises the Radiants and guards against any Fused asking why none of them have it when the Radiants do.

2 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

Adhesion isn’t a natural force like Gravitation or Friction

Adhesion is the Surge of pressure and vacuum, both of which are very real things.

2 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

That’s why Odium can’t replicate it, except maybe if he had succeeded in corrupting the Sibling.

I mean, by my theory he doesn't even need to replicate it.

And even if that is true, why isn't there a tenth brand of Fused using a power of pure Odium then?

2 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

And, of course, the number of Odium is 9.

The number of Braize.

2 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

And why would Odium grant Yelig-nar’s powers to his followers, but not the other Unmade?

Yelig-nar seemingly can only empower one person at a time and judging by Amaram they operate at nowhere near Bondsmith levels of power.

There's also quite the difference between one spren-humanoid pair, where half is likely to die from the bond before they can really start exploring what they can do, and potentially hundreds of Fused who can master their Surge over thousands of years.

On top of that there's the suggestion that what Yelig-nar does only mimics the majority of Surges, which might make Adhesion a non-issue.

Lastly, each Unmade seems to be its own thing, why not ask why they can't all enlighten spren? They are unique and distinct, possibly crafted to each be a specific tool.

2 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

Everybody calls him the most dangerous, if he can be controlled surely the others can.

They do? He's not the one who could apparently cause whole settlements to flee without even showing up in person or the one who prosecuted a war.

Yelig-nar seems akin to a great swordsman, a terror to face in combat to be sure, but lacking in reach.

Here's a question, during the unification of Alethkar, who was more dangerous, Dalinar or Gavilar?

The easy answer is Dalinar "let's get you Plate so your impossible feats in combat won't make the rest of us look bad" Kholin, but Gavilar is the one who could tell him where to fight.

The swordsman will not win you a war, but a spymaster might.

The swordsman is far less dangerous than severak people he could humiliate in single combat, a general commanding loyal troops, a king declaring war or a master poisoner making sure that a power shift occurs smoothly are all people with far more devastating potential.

Keeping a single being who doesn't seem able to use his powers without a host in line is also far easier than multiple people with free access to their power.

3 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

It’s a really weird conspiracy that he would intentionally hold back a something that could create a Bondsmith type thing working for him.

I mean, a large part of my original post in this topic lays out exactly why I think Rayse would not want a Bondsmith-alike.

 

¤_¤

[Benkinsky]

so I had a thought, not sure if this was brought up here yet, but maybe we can use this thread/the pairing of Unmade to Radiant Orders in a different way.

The Unmade don't align to the Orders 1 to 1. But we know a few other things:

Voidbinding is said to be, in some form, of the Unmade. There's ten Orders with ten surges, minus one because Adhesion is of Honor.

Maybe the Unmade can give us fodder to speculate on other Enlightened Orders though!

We have Enlightened Truthwatchers with what I'll call Enlightened Lightweaving, which gives Renarin Future Sight. Which is Moelach's thing. Maybe we shouldn't be assigning Unmade to Orders and their surges, but just to one surge. (going off of Truthwatchers, this would be the secondary surge of some order, if we want to look for orders)

 

Could go two ways, of course.  Mapping the Unmade not to the known Surges but to "Voids", maybe some of you guys are interested in thinking this one through.

Alternatively, basing it on the surges. Let's take Enlightened Transportation, which might be similar to what we've seen the Defeated One do. If Enlightened Lightweaving becomes Futuresight because that's one of nine "Void-surges", then one of the other 8 Unmade could give us a hint of how that looks. I assume that might be Re-Shephir, and an Enlightened Elsecaller might be able to create Midnight Essence, only not for them to control for a distance but to "bodyhop" into, or control pretty directly.

What do you guys think? Is there some speculation to be had here?

 

[Inquisitor #5]

8 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

The Unmade don't align to the Orders 1 to 1.

Indeed.

I've been privately considering the idea that the reason they don't map perfectly to the Radiants is because they map to the Surges instead, though I don't have a solid case for that one yet.

It would also possibly make things even harder to pin down, if they map to a Surge do they gain access to both adjacent Surges in some capacity?

12 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

Voidbinding is said to be, in some form, of the Unmade

Yes, Brandon has said that Voidbinding usually oricinates with the Unmade.

14 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

There's ten Orders with ten surges, minus one because Adhesion is of Honor.

This gives me a perfect opportunity to adress something I missed in my last post, the idea that Adhesion is purely of Honor and therefore Odium can't grant it.

Why can Odium grant powers that are of Honor and Cultivation, but not ones that are of Honor alone?

I think something about that narrative doesn't add up, especially given that the standard method of accessing Surgebinding (Radiant bond) just treats it as another Surge.

Adding to that, Brandon has confirmed that the Surge pairs are natural, things kinda break if you take Adhesion out in that case.

If Odium can grant Surgebinding to the Fused, it stands to reason that he could grant the complete set.

And if I can be allowed a tangent, yet another reason why Rayse might not want servants with unrestricted access to Adhesion (i.e. Bondsmith-alikes) is because Bondsmiths seem to be able to act as a representative of a Shard.

In Oathbringer, when Dalinar tries to push for a contest of champions, Rayse tells him that as Bondsmith, that is an offer he can make. He doesn't say anything about being the Stormfather's Bondsmith or anything, just Bondsmith.

Unless Rayse is just skipping that part or withholding information, it seems that any (or at least multiple) Radiant Bondsmith can stand in for Honor.

In any case, even if only the Stormfather's Bondsmith can make deals for Honor, it doesn't matter. Does Rayse seem like he would want anyone to be able to possibly speak for him?

Some (pseudo-)mortal making a deal on behalf of Odium because Rayse happened to be preoccupied doesn't sound like something he'd want to chance the tiniest risk of.

Tangent over.

37 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

Maybe the Unmade can give us fodder to speculate on other Enlightened Orders though!

This does seem to be the case, If I'm anywhere close to right in the OP, Moelach lines up with Progression/Truthwatcher, who are known to see the future when Enlightened.

41 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

We have Enlightened Truthwatchers with what I'll call Enlightened Lightweaving, which gives Renarin Future Sight.

I'm not so sure about this, I used to think it was an expression of Illumination, but I don't think that's entirely the case anymore.

At the start of RoW we see Renarin and his Funky Ball of Light, which seems to be his manifestation of Illumination.

Now, it can definitely do some odd things, showing (illuminating one might say) how things could have been different if people had made different choices. (And also messing with Moash's Edgelord powers, apparently.)

This is very different from how Illumination manifests in ordinary Radiants and is the part that seems pretty unanimously agreed by the fandom is Voidbinding.

We also see that Adolin gets a flash of his perfect self when Renarin uses Progression on him. This, coupled with some speculation earlier in the thread, seems to make a pretty compelling case for Renarin's Progression also being Voidish.

Both his Surges definitely seem skewed or twisted towards the Spiritual, what with the temporal manifestation of Illumination and the perfect self vision of Progression.

Neither one fully accounts for the stained glass vision however and I'm inclined to believe either his Resonance or hybrid power is responsible. I'd say hybrid power seems somewhat more likely, as it seems to directly manifest bits of both powers, without wholly being either, just like a reverse lashing.

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

Maybe we shouldn't be assigning Unmade to Orders and their surges, but just to one surge.

Heh, and that's what I get for not reading the post I'm responding to properly.

As I've already said above, I'd also hit on that idea.

There's also the thought that the Unmade don't line up with a Surge, but a hybrid power, like what I find Renarin's future sight likely to be.

I feel that can't be quite right however, as that's just a backwards way of linking them to a specific order again.

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

going off of Truthwatchers, this would be the secondary surge of some order, if we want to look for orders

I'll have to respectfully disagree, out of preference for my own conclusions.

I think I got the idea right to start with and this is incompatible with my system, so I can't hold both to be true at once.

I don't mean to sound all full of myself, or to imply that this is factually incorrect or not worth pursuing, so I hope that's not how I come across.

It's also based on assumptions that I disagree with, as detailed above.

I also feel that a system that can map Mishram to Adhesion, which focus on the second Surge of each order prohibits as there's no Bondsmith, handily explains Mishram's new abilities during the False Desolation in a simple, satisfying manner.

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

Mapping the Unmade not to the known Surges but to "Voids"

Going by the assumptions already made, (Renarin's Voidbinding, Moelach maps to Truthwatcher) it would definitely seem that the Unmade fall along Voidish lines.

The Unmade seem to be Voidbinding, which, judging by Renarin and the influence of several Unmade, generally seems to skew the same base Surges towards Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations or possibly just manifesting most strongly along lines that Surgebinding generally doesn't. In the gaps, or voids, of Surgebinding, if you will.

As Surgebinding generally seems to favour Physical manifestations of power, Voidbinding might show a general trend towards the non-Physical.

Moelach's future sight, Ashertmarn and Nergaoul's respective influences, possibly Sja-anat's transformation of spren (compare to standard Soulcasting, interacting with the Cognitive to change the Physical, versus affecting change in the Cognitive [and possibly Spiritual.])

Now, Re-Shephir and Yelig-nar show obvious signs of Physical manifestations, but then again, just like Surgebinding can have non-Physical manifestations, Voidbinding should have Physical manifestations.

Or I'm completely off base and the supposed trend is just the result of a biased sample.

I do think that, as suggested earlier in the thread, we can make guesses about the "Knights Enlightened" and the Unmade based on eachother.

Enightened Elsecallers should have abilities that fall along the same lines as Sja-anat, for instance, but I couldn't begin to tell you what that would actually mean.

Same for Enlightweavers and Re-Shephir, with my only speculation being that they could possibly manifest sci-fi style hard light.

I definitely hope we'll get at least one Enlightened Radiant per order (possibly barring Bondsmith), so we can see what they all do.

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

Let's take Enlightened Transportation, which might be similar to what we've seen the Defeated One do.

Seeing as we have confirmation that the Fused Surgebind, not Voidbind, I don't find this particularly likely.

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

If Enlightened Lightweaving becomes Futuresight because that's one of nine "Void-surges", then one of the other 8 Unmade could give us a hint of how that looks.

Again, I disagree with the premise, Renarin's lightweaving seems to be the ball of hindsight.

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

I assume that might be Re-Shephir, and an Enlightened Elsecaller might be able to create Midnight Essence

I really feel like Re-Shephir can't be made to align with any order other than Lightweaver, she's described both as a really twisted creationspren and as having been trapped by someone who really understood her, a Lightweaver.

I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't be the rough Lightweaver counterpart based on that.

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

only not for them to control for a distance but to "bodyhop" into, or control pretty directly.

That's an interesting idea, no idea how it'd work or anything, but definitely not something I'd have thought of.

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

What do you guys think? Is there some speculation to be had here?

Oh, I definitely think that this general direction is correct, too much seems to line up too well.

I might disagree with the exact details, but that's what spurs a lot of discussion, it wouldn't be a ton of fun if we all just blandly agreed on everything.

 

¤_¤

[Benkinsky]

12 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Heh, and that's what I get for not reading the post I'm responding to properly.

As I've already said above, I'd also hit on that idea.

hehe

 

13 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

This is very different from how Illumination manifests in ordinary Radiants and is the part that seems pretty unanimously agreed by the fandom is Voidbinding.

We also see that Adolin gets a flash of his perfect self when Renarin uses Progression on him. This, coupled with some speculation earlier in the thread, seems to make a pretty compelling case for Renarin's Progression also being Voidish.

Both his Surges definitely seem skewed or twisted towards the Spiritual, what with the temporal manifestation of Illumination and the perfect self vision of Progression.

Neither one fully accounts for the stained glass vision however and I'm inclined to believe either his Resonance or hybrid power is responsible. I'd say hybrid power seems somewhat more likely, as it seems to directly manifest bits of both powers, without wholly being either, just like a reverse lashing.

oooh that's super interesting. I'd kind of forgotten about the Illumination he does "to" Moash. But yeah, Windrunners have more lashings than surges, so I could see the Glass Window Thing as resonance/hybrid manifestation! that's interesting! We were introduced to Lashings before we learnt what Surgebinding was too, so that could be what happens here too.

 

15 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

As Surgebinding generally seems to favour Physical manifestations of power, Voidbinding might show a general trend towards the non-Physical.

Moelach's future sight, Ashertmarn and Nergaoul's respective influences, possibly Sja-anat's transformation of spren (compare to standard Soulcasting, interacting with the Cognitive to change the Physical, versus affecting change in the Cognitive [and possibly Spiritual.])

I love this line of thinking, it sounds very plausible to me! With Honor's and Cultivation's surges as "natural" (read: natural physical) forces, Odium's (Passion!) surges could be the "natural mental" driving forces, aka Passions. That actually makes a lot of sense. And Sja-anat as transforming the cognitive also tracks!

 

16 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Same for Enlightweavers and Re-Shephir, with my only speculation being that they could possibly manifest sci-fi style hard light

Green Lantern Style?

 

17 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

That's an interesting idea, no idea how it'd work or anything, but definitely not something I'd have thought of.

I'm imagining the "empty" body of the Voidbinder sitting/slumping somewhere while they direct the Mindnight Body, kind of like an Avatar in Avatar (the blue long people one). Or, for the Naruto Watchers, like Shikamaru's Shadow Control. Whether that's transportation or HardLightweaving, you'd have a construct that you control. The big question is whether damage to your Midnight Body would hurt you, but I'd assume not.

 

19 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh, I definitely think that this general direction is correct, too much seems to line up too well.

I might disagree with the exact details, but that's what spurs a lot of discussion, it wouldn't be a ton of fun if we all just blandly agreed on everything.

same here! I'm enjoying this thread a lot!

I'll toss another one into the ring:

 

Ashertmarn - Abrasion. If the Surge is the physical manifestation (stuff can slide aka is not inhibited), I can imagine the cognitive manifestation of that being similar to soothing/rioting, which Ashertmarn is very similar to. Not only are Cultivationspren the spren closest to Cultivation, and The Heart of the Revel feels like a big opposite of that, regressing to animalistic/hedonistic impulses, but that also tracks for the surge. Ashertmarn makes it so you give in to those impulses, your inhibition is gone, you "slide" into it. I hope I'm getting across what I mean. Definitely feels Cognitive to me, Cognitive Abrasion.

 

27 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I really feel like Re-Shephir can't be made to align with any order other than Lightweaver, she's described both as a really twisted creationspren and as having been trapped by someone who really understood her, a Lightweaver.

Yeah, fair point. Then again, there's a big theory that Shalash, the Lightweaver is going to be very much not a Lightweaver in her book (Dustbringer, i think, is the common theory), so I feel like if any order gets to do the red herring for Unmade, it's Lightweaver. Your argument makes a lot of sense though. Plus, a Lightweaver is also our current example of somone with two spren. Who knows if she or some other Lightweaver won't end up bonding both an enlightened and a "normal" radiant spren.

 

oh and there's two tidbits of thought that I have anyway, and you've given me two things to quote that let me drop them here :

21 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Knights Enlightened

such a cool name. And lowkey something I think we might get in the future. I can't help but feel like we'll end up in the Odium "wins" timeline, aka War/Conquest/whatever you wanna call it. Like the Heralds for their orders, the Unmade as the pinnacle of nine orders of Knights Enlightened, as humans and singers embrace Voidbinding. Maybe not like all of humanity and singerdom, but a big chunk. I'm 100% here for Knights Enlightened. The Knights are dead, long live the Knights.

29 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Why can Odium grant powers that are of Honor and Cultivation, but not ones that are of Honor alone?

I really really like your argument that Rayse didn't make bondsmiths not because he couldn't, but because he chose not to. That's my headcanon since i read that argument for the first time.

However, I also wanna use this opportunity to ping another thought: (and if you've read my Ba-Ado-Mishram theory you might suspect what it is)

Why can Odium grant powers that are of Honor and Cultivation, but not ones that are of Honor alone? Because Cultivation either can't or won't stop him. Let's rephrase it: Odium can grant powers that are of Cultivation.

I think it's wrong to assume Cultivation is in opposition to Odium, atleast not as much as Honor was. Rayse was scared of her, and we always hear of her by Honor's side, but the one doing big plays even beyond his death is Honor. Cultivation is... there.

Ever since SH, I've been sceptical of shards. All shards. Ruin was so obviously evil, yeah. But two things should be kept in mind post HoA. 1. the well known "Ati was once a kind and generous man" and 2. Preservation loved the Lord Ruler. Seriously, if Preservation could've chosen, TLR would've just ruled forever. Because the Shard's intent overpowers anyone after such a long time.

Whether you follow the theory that Koravellium Avast is setting up Dalinar and Lift to succeed Tanavast and her like she did with Taravangian and Odium or not, the point I'm trying to make is that Cultivation is dangerous too. She wants growth, change, evolution. I think she's not inhibiting Odium's use of the surges because she either can't or doesn't want to, both of which are because she's Cultivation. Especially since Tanavast's death.

If Stormlight Archive 5 or 10 ends with a giant Alliance getting ready to go on Space Exploration, with Knights Radiant and/or Knights Enlightened and/or Knights Revived (Adolin/Maya) together, I don't think Cultivation would be in opposition to that, she'd be part of it. Rant over.

[Benkinsky]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I think something about that narrative doesn't add up, especially given that the standard method of accessing Surgebinding (Radiant bond) just treats it as another Surge.

I also wanted to circle back to that, in addition to what I've already said.

In the spirit of constructive discussion (which I'm delighted to have!) I think "just another surge" isn't quite accurate. The two orders who get access to Adhesion are 1. Windrunners, who are bound to Honorspren, and Bondsmiths, who are bound to Godspren. The former tracks for it being Honor's surge, the second only somewhat. However, we've only seen one Bondsmith use Adhesion, and that Bondsmith is bound to Honors Godspren.

Leaving out the possibility that the Surges that Navani or a Nightwatcher-Bondsmith get are others than Dalinar does, I assume that if Adhesion manifests differently for a Bondsmith and Windrunners, they might as well manifest differently for other Bondsmiths too. Nightwatcher!Adhesion might manifest quite differently, some sort of Cultivation Version of Honor's truest surge, gifted to her. Maybe Tanavasts's death removed that, which is why Cultivation is training the Nightwatcher some more.

[Inquisitor #5]

21 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

But yeah, Windrunners have more lashings than surges, so I could see the Glass Window Thing as resonance/hybrid manifestation!

Yep, and I'd be very surprised if hybrid manifestations were unique to only a few orders.

21 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

We were introduced to Lashings before we learnt what Surgebinding was too, so that could be what happens here too.

That wouldn't surprise me. Here Brandon also has the benefit of not needing to give in-depth explanations, unlike with Szeth telling us the Lashings, because we've only seen if from the perspective of people who don't know what's going on, so Brandon can still be coy about it if he needs to.

21 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

I love this line of thinking, it sounds very plausible to me!

Why, thank you! 

21 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

With Honor's and Cultivation's surges as "natural" (read: natural physical) forces, Odium's (Passion!) surges could be the "natural mental" driving forces, aka Passions.

This thread just keeps on giving in the "how'd I not notice that!?"-department.

That is a wonderful observation!

Months ago I had the idea that each Unmade lines up with an emotion taken to an extreme, though my mental state at the time left me with very little energy to engage here, so I never proposed it on the forum.

I can't quite remember what I thought, I think it was something along the lines of the observation that the Deadly Sins are all good things taken to an excessive point, or something like that.

So Lust is desire taken too far, but desire is a basic motivator to humans, that kind of thing.

Same kind of concept with the Unmade, Re-Shephir displays curiosity taken to an obsessive level, like a pop-media "scientist" more concerned with understanding than if the research is ethical.

Don't know if I'm on to something there, but it's a fun bit of theorising.

21 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

That actually makes a lot of sense.

Yep, sure does, collective theorising is awesome.

21 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

And Sja-anat as transforming the cognitive also tracks!

Even more, part of the reason the old Radiants might have been so scared of her is that she has the power to override the collective ideas of Roshar. 

She can just change something that is how it is because of the general perception of things.

We already know that Soulcasting seems to feed back from the Cognitive to the Physical, so that kind of feedback might be a possible concern, in addition to Enlightened spren apparently working like a spy- and courier-network.

22 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Green Lantern Style?

Oh yeah.

Though probably not quite as "do anything" as Hal/Kyle/whoever's Lantern Ring.

I was also gonna say something about how, based on the Midnight Essence, the hard light might be softer than you'd like, but the first imitation murder is a stab wound, so obviously they can reasonably replicate something as stiff and hard as a knife at least.

23 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

I'm imagining the "empty" body of the Voidbinder sitting/slumping somewhere while they direct the Mindnight Body, kind of like an Avatar in Avatar (the blue long people one). Or, for the Naruto Watchers, like Shikamaru's Shadow Control. Whether that's transportation or HardLightweaving, you'd have a construct that you control.

Hmm, I could see the case for V-Transportation allowing you to inhabit a construct like that, though I feel apprehensive about it.

23 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

The big question is whether damage to your Midnight Body would hurt you, but I'd assume not.

I don't think we have anything to imply that kind of sympathetic feedback, so I'd also assume that doesn't happen.

If you were actively "driving" the construct you'd presumably experience any pain it'd feel and such, but nothing that'd physically harm you.

I also feel like if that happened Re-Shephir'd be at quite the disadvantage, as a non-Surgebinder can best a Midnight Essence. If hurting them hurt her she'd be very, very vulnerable.

23 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Ashertmarn - Abrasion. If the Surge is the physical manifestation (stuff can slide aka is not inhibited), I can imagine the cognitive manifestation of that being similar to soothing/rioting, which Ashertmarn is very similar to. Not only are Cultivationspren the spren closest to Cultivation, and The Heart of the Revel feels like a big opposite of that, regressing to animalistic/hedonistic impulses, but that also tracks for the surge. Ashertmarn makes it so you give in to those impulses, your inhibition is gone, you "slide" into it. I hope I'm getting across what I mean. Definitely feels Cognitive to me, Cognitive Abrasion.

In my first attempt to line them up, back before this thread, I made that same call.

However, after I remembered Shallan's experience with the Revel, I don't think that's the case.

Slicking something will make it slide effortlessly, sure, but there needs to be some force acting on it to make it move.

In the same way I can imagine a mental slicking as making people short-sighted and ruled by their desires, as people provide the equivalent of force all on their own.

Sounds good so far, but the fact that Shallan experiences an outside pressure to give in and join the Revel implies to me that the Surge in question is one that actively affects on something, rather than passively allowing something to be affected.

I put this as Cohesion, but I could also see it as a Cognitive manifestation of Transportation, a re-arranging of one's emotions.

23 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Then again, there's a big theory that Shalash, the Lightweaver is going to be very much not a Lightweaver in her book (Dustbringer, i think, is the common theory), so I feel like if any order gets to do the red herring for Unmade, it's Lightweaver.

Hmm, I suppose so.

The Ash-Dustbringer theory is very common, yes.

I will point out that none of the Heralds, possibly barring Taln in his lucid moments, really seem to exemplify their associated order anymore.

Yes, even head Skybreaker Nale, as he's pushed the Skybreakers to be, if I may mangle the D&D alignment chart, Lawful Insane.

He and the Skybreakers are not a force for justice, but a force for law, and furthermore Nale is fully willing to badger people to enact laws simply in service to his goal of making sure the Radiants don't return.

Shalash as Dustbringer also makes sense thematically, as their theme is self-mastery and she's dealing with compulsive thoughts. She can not refuse to deface art of herself, so she also fits with Dustbringers seeming to be the kind of people who take a clock apart looking for the tick.

I would like it if Brandon actually pulled the wool over our eyes and made Taln the Dustbringer and Ash the Stoneward though. It'd be a fun subversion.

In any case, I have such a hard time separating the description of being like a creationspren from Lightweaver, it would be very odd to me if that was a red herring.

23 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Plus, a Lightweaver is also our current example of somone with two spren. Who knows if she or some other Lightweaver won't end up bonding both an enlightened and a "normal" radiant spren.

That I would absolutely love to see, assuming that we find the "cure" for deadeyes next book, there's no mechanical reason for Shallan to be bonded to two spren, as her abilities won't be significantly stronger because of it.

While I don't want to dispassionately weigh characters simply as what abilities they bring to the table, one of Shallan's spren being Enlightened is a good reason to keep both bonds going forward, from an out-of-universe perspective.

I also happen to be a sucker for weird magical interactions and edge cases, so there's that.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

such a cool name.

Thanks 

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

I can't help but feel like we'll end up in the Odium "wins" timeline, aka War/Conquest/whatever you wanna call it.

Hmm, I'm not sure about "Odium wins," but I'm fully on board with "Odium doesn't lose."

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

Like the Heralds for their orders, the Unmade as the pinnacle of nine orders of Knights Enlightened, as humans and singers embrace Voidbinding. Maybe not like all of humanity and singerdom, but a big chunk. I'm 100% here for Knights Enlightened.

Ohh, that is ominous.

I would absolutely hate for that to happen! Like, not in a bad way, but in an "oh no, oh #$%@" kinda way. I suppose like the occupation of Urithiru, but so, so much worse.

Thanks for this disturbing possibility, I'm now way more worried about what happens in the next book.

(Of course, there's no guarantee that they'll be on team Odium, just like Radiants don't have to be on team Honor.)

I'll also say that the face of Roshar has already been irrevocably changed by the arrival of the Everstorm, so why not have this be a thing as well.

I do also hope that there will be a Bondsmith-alike, possibly through a bond with the (as yet unconfirmed) spren of the Everstorm.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

The Knights are dead, long live the Knights.

Yeeep, dreading this outcome now.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

I really really like your argument that Rayse didn't make bondsmiths not because he couldn't, but because he chose not to. That's my headcanon since i read that argument for the first time.

Woo!

Also, sorry if it felt like I was directing my additional arguments at you specifically, I simply saw the opportunity to add to what I had already been saying on the subject, but had either missed or not thought about yet in my earlier post.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

Why can Odium grant powers that are of Honor and Cultivation, but not ones that are of Honor alone? Because Cultivation either can't or won't stop him. Let's rephrase it: Odium can grant powers that are of Cultivation.

OK, interesting idea.

I do wonder how that works out based on this WoB:

Quote

Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

Idaho Falls Signing (Nov. 28, 2015)

Seeing as the Fused predate Tanavast's death, as does the Fused being Surgebinders (based on how they are said to have been dangerous even before they learned to command the Surges), she must have let Odium have access to her side of things while in open opposition to him.

(Or he could just bypass that at a different level if my theory on how the Fused get Surgebinding is correct.)

This line of reasoning also makes me wonder if

Mistborn era 2

Spoiler

Harmony could technically block out Trellium.

There's also this WoB:

Quote

Stromeng

In Oathbringer Cultivation calls Dalinar Son of Honor and Son of Odium. Why? Does he Connected to both Shards and technically can be a Vessel for Odium.

Also, why Cultivation says it'd be good for her to have a part of Dalinar inside of her? Is it important?

Brandon Sanderson

This is partially RAFO territory, but let's just say that Cultivation takes the long view on someone--and to her, Dalinar represents both the the best and worst of both Honor and Odium.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

And I think that based on this it's a reasonable assumption that Koravari takes a long view on most things.

Based on that, the fact that she's apprehensive to touch Dalinar and what she says to Taravangian, I think it's safe to say that she's opposed to Rayse, but not Odium.

So her allowing Rayse to meddle in the Surges as part of her long game isn't implausible.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

I think it's wrong to assume Cultivation is in opposition to Odium, atleast not as much as Honor was.

So it would seem.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

Rayse was scared of her, and we always hear of her by Honor's side, but the one doing big plays even beyond his death is Honor. Cultivation is... there.

I think Rayse was mostly scared of her as the only being in the area that could easily attack and kill him if he slipped up.

But yes, it is odd that she apparently doesn't do... much of anything.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

Ever since SH, I've been sceptical of shards. All shards.

That is a fair assesment, each one is a part of a whole ripped free of its context, an idea pushed to its extreme.

Funnily enough the same can be said of the Radiants as well, the orders need eachother to not fall into their own virtue taken too far, kinda like the Deadly Sins again.

Windrunners could easily turn dystopian in an effort to protect people, basically denying freedom to prevent people from risking harm.

Skybreakers... become basically what they have in the books, fancy that.

Dustbringers could either go full arsonist or become elitist, seeing other people as not mattering because they've not attained self-mastery.

Edgedancers would be easily given to beurocratic gridlock, either from a combination of direct democracy and needing all decisions to be unanimous, or by putting everything up for debate ad infinitum, to make sure everyone gets heard.

Truthwatchers are hard to pin down, but I could see them becoming mistrustful of others and mistrusted in turn.

Lightweavers are probably the least bad on the list, as they are too individual and fluid to make easy categorical statements about and unlikely to cause administrative damage.

Elsecallers could go full dispassionate utilitarian.

Willshapers could go full "every man is an island" libertarian/anarchist/ancap/whatever.

Stonewards could go inflexible to the extreme and possibly become a beurocratic and ceremonial nightmare.

Bondsmiths could (and have, Gavilar) become brutal warlords bent on uniting people, you know, all violent-like.

(Thanks for the opportunity to get that out of my system. )

Both the Shards and the Radiants need the others for context.

Even seemingly positive ideas like Honor, Mercy and Devotion become something wrong when taken to their logical conclusions.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

Ruin was so obviously evil, yeah. But two things should be kept in mind post HoA. 1. the well known "Ati was once a kind and generous man" and 2. Preservation loved the Lord Ruler. Seriously, if Preservation could've chosen, TLR would've just ruled forever. Because the Shard's intent overpowers anyone after such a long time.

Even then, Ruin is a necessary part of things things need to break on a very basic level to allow life to continue, for instance, molecules being broken down to make other molecules.

The overriding directive of Ruin just wants unmoderated destruction.

And on the other side, Preservation is the perfect reactionary, wanting things to be as they are, no matter how that is.

Preservation would never allow a universe where life exists, chemical reactions wouldn't be allowed to happen, the planets would stand still in space.

Any original Vessel is probably just as insane as the Heralds, if more focussed and functional, from having this one overwhelming idea bore into them for thousands of years.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

Whether you follow the theory that Koravellium Avast is setting up Dalinar and Lift to succeed Tanavast and her like she did with Taravangian and Odium or not, the point I'm trying to make is that Cultivation is dangerous too.

Oh, yes, she definitely is dangerous.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

She wants growth, change, evolution. I think she's not inhibiting Odium's use of the surges because she either can't or doesn't want to, both of which are because she's Cultivation. Especially since Tanavast's death.

I don't think that growth, change, evolution is quite accurate. Seeing how she granted both Taravangian and Dalinar what they asked for, after a fashion, I think the same can probably be said to be true of Lift.

I don't think granting something that lines up with "not-change" would work very well for her if change is her overriding directive.

However, she's not growth, she's Cultivation, there's structure, there's control. 

That I think is closer to her main directive. I think she has a hard time letting go. At some point it's not feasible to keep holding someone's hand and I'm not sure she's capable of letting go.

(Yes, I just characterised Koravari as the helicopterest of parents)

She has the Nightwatcher do her thing in the Valley, but she's always looking over her shoulder.

She has her fingers all over the place.

Even after Taravangian becomes her peer, she's trying to steer him in the direction she wants.

And this line of thinking is terrifying and I could definitely see her being a villain in the future now.

I do wonder how the whole Fused Surgebinding thing happened now, if it's true that there are no Adhesion Fused because Tanavast held the Surge back from them, is that still in place or could any theoretical new Fused be granted it now?

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

If Stormlight Archive 5 or 10 ends with a giant Alliance getting ready to go on Space Exploration, with Knights Radiant and/or Knights Enlightened and/or Knights Revived (Adolin/Maya) together, I don't think Cultivation would be in opposition to that, she'd be part of it.

Given my analysis above, I'd place her as opposed, on account of losing control.

Or possibly very much on board as long as she gets a say in it, I suppose.

On 2021-09-16 at 1:56 PM, Benkinsky said:

Rant over.

Good rant.

On 2021-09-16 at 2:30 PM, Benkinsky said:

The two orders who get access to Adhesion are 1. Windrunners, who are bound to Honorspren, and Bondsmiths, who are bound to Godspren. The former tracks for it being Honor's surge, the second only somewhat. However, we've only seen one Bondsmith use Adhesion, and that Bondsmith is bound to Honors Godspren.

Ah, maybe I was a little unclear, it's just another Surge in that it behaves like a Surge, interacts with other Surges and follows the pair pattern.

If it wasn't an actual Surge, Bondsmiths should be Tension/Gravitation, no?

I also feel like at least two Bondsmiths need to be able to use Adhesion, as that at least makes the Radiant chart majority true.

We also know that Urithiru does increased air pressure, which is Adhesion.

I feel like Bondsmith wouldn't be a category if all of them didn't have powers based in the same Surges.

Add to that that Brandon has said that the Surge pairs are natural and I find it very hard to believe that a Nahel spren could grant Tension without granting either Adhesion or Cohesion.

On 2021-09-16 at 2:30 PM, Benkinsky said:

Leaving out the possibility that the Surges that Navani or a Nightwatcher-Bondsmith get are others than Dalinar does, I assume that if Adhesion manifests differently for a Bondsmith and Windrunners, they might as well manifest differently for other Bondsmiths too.

Oh, I definitely don't think that the three Bondsmiths overlap perfectly, but I do think that what they do should be rooted in the Bondsmith Surges.

Each one should manifest the ability to "grab" the Surges of other orders differently, for instance.

The Stormfather does Google Earth, while I could see the Sibling as possibly doing the same on a much finer scale for Urithiru, or possibly being able to project lightweavings throughout the tower as a PA system.

I do however think they share the same basic capabilities, like Spiritual Adhesion Duolingo.

On 2021-09-16 at 2:30 PM, Benkinsky said:

Nightwatcher!Adhesion might manifest quite differently, some sort of Cultivation Version of Honor's truest surge, gifted to her. Maybe Tanavasts's death removed that, which is why Cultivation is training the Nightwatcher some more.

Hmm, I don't think that Tanavast's death, or even Honor's splintering, should have had that kind of effect.

I feel like whatever was done to make the Bondsmith spren Bondsmith spren it wasn't something that needed to be done actively.

 

¤_¤

[Benkinsky]

On 17.9.2021 at 7:12 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yep, and I'd be very surprised if hybrid manifestations were unique to only a few orders.

storms I didn't even think about that much. I'm on here thinking about 5d chess moves and haven't even hyped myself up yet about that. Why would only Windrunners and Enlightened Truthwatchers have those? Surely not everyone, but... man, how would Division and Gravity interact, for example? could you make something implode on itself/make like a "miniature black hole"? Holy rust. Transportation is probably the one with the least resonance with others.

 

Info: This comment has a lot of answers to Inquisitor #5s post, and I'll post another one afterwards with some more thoughts and implications to the original topic of the post rather than just back and forth telling each other our theories and rants are cool

 

On 17.9.2021 at 7:12 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

That is a wonderful observation!

thanks Love reading your thoughts on that, the whole "taken to the extreme" is exactly what the Unmade would be in a context like that, I think.

On 17.9.2021 at 7:12 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Same kind of concept with the Unmade, Re-Shephir displays curiosity taken to an obsessive level, like a pop-media "scientist" more concerned with understanding than if the research is ethical.

 I wonder if this is in part or in fact another trope, the "powerful being with the mind of a child, still learning". Aka "Re-Shephir doesn't understand what "killing" really does. As in, all the time she's been surrounded by Spren and Fused, both of which are functionally immortal, the idea that what she's doing isn't just an activity but has long and deep implications  might be beyond her.

 

On 17.9.2021 at 7:12 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Lawful Insane.

lmao, accurate

 

On 17.9.2021 at 7:12 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Thanks for this disturbing possibility, I'm now way more worried about what happens in the next book.

always happy to help, and yeah I feel much like you. I would hate to see that for our heroes, but as a reader it intrigues me greatly. "Odium doesn't lose" is better put, and would be so much more interesting than Hero of Ages 2: Stormlight Boogaloo

 

On 17.9.2021 at 7:12 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I think it's safe to say that she's opposed to Rayse, but not Odium.

gotta say, that makes a lot of sense with my/the "voids are passions are (natural) mental driving forces" thought. Very up Cultivations alley, in of itself.

On 17.9.2021 at 7:12 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

(Thanks for the opportunity to get that out of my system. )

always happy. I had a similar thought but hadn't devoted time to it, enjoyed reading that.

 

On 17.9.2021 at 7:12 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

However, she's not growth, she's Cultivation, there's structure, there's control. 

that is a very good point. I always kind of forget that and just think she's opposite-Ruin. She's not. Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a cancer cell. Cultivation is a garden, with carefully selected plants.

 

 

[Benkinsky]

On 16.9.2021 at 1:17 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I really feel like Re-Shephir can't be made to align with any order other than Lightweaver, she's described both as a really twisted creationspren and as having been trapped by someone who really understood her, a Lightweaver.

I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't be the rough Lightweaver counterpart based on that.

nowwww let's get interesting! Someone else might've made this observation before, if yes please point me in their direction, if no then here's a thought:

let's connect a few dots here: Re-Shephir is a really twisted creationspren and was understood by a Lightweaver before. This tracks, seeing how Shallan keeps attracting creationspren (iirc). Now, hold up. We learned something very interesting in RoW, or rather it was confirmed in Row:

Shardplate is made of lesser spren that are tangentially related to the Order of Radiant.

Storm Surges, maybe this is what the Unmade - Radiant pairing is about. Probably aligns anyway. Sadly, we only know a few Orders' lesser spren, but still. I bet a lot of people have been guessing Creationspren are going to make up Lightweaver Plate. So...

The Yelig-Nar - Blightwind - Windrunner pairing has been proposed before. This line of thinking works well for that, doesn't it? a "really twisted windspren"? Windspren play pranks by making rudimentary use of adhesion. Yelig-Nar eats your soul and takes over your body. Get pranked.

Sadly, we don't know many more.

Lightweaver - (probably Creationspren) - Re-Shephir

Windrunner - Windspren - (probably Yelig-Nar)

Elsecaller - Logicspren - (no idea. Probably one of the smarter Unmade. Sja-Anat, maybe)

 

do we have more to speculate with? did we see Renarin attract any kind of spren more often, or Lift, or anyone else?

[Halyo_Alex]

5 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

or Lift,

Lifespren?

----

one of my favorite mini theories is that Stoneward plate is made of Painspren, but i dunno if that tracks with the current patterns. Mmm.

dustbringers having flamespren would make sense imo.

While it would be absolutely badass for Skybreakers to have Starspren for their plate (because Highspren look like rifts to outer space), I have a feeling those things are a little too rare and... majestic to be reduced to forming Plate.

Willshapers using captivityspren could be an interesting thematic twist, but that may be the literal opposite of the truth.

And for truthwatchers, i mean, i'm stumped. No guesses from me.

[Zoey]

As I see it:

 

Nergaoul is to Dustbringers and Chanarach. The trait is Brave, and the Thrill does give one a great degree of Bravery

Sja-anat sees herself as healing and she is said to love her children. Even Brandon said it could be seen as healing https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14721. Thus she seems to connect to Edgedancers and Vedel

Moeloch seems to be Truthwatchers, as a corrupted Mistspren, Glys, gave the ability to see the future. And it is a corruption of learned and giving. Allowing one to learn of the future, and giving them the ability to do so.

Re-shepir seems to be connected to Lightwavers and Shalash, she creates things and all. She also makes pale and monstrous initiations (dishonest), and fears Lightweavers

Ashertmarn makes people abandon responsibilities (not dependable) and waste resources through indulgence (not resourceful) so seems to apply to Stonewards and Talenel

Ba-ado-Mishram seems to be connected to Bondsmiths and Ishar, with how connected she is with Connection, and also she seems to be one who gives guidance to those she connects to, like the Guiding Trait of Ishi

So we still have Chemoarish and Dai-Gonarthis to go over. Which would fit with either:

Skybreakers and Nale or

Elsecallers and Battar

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Zoey

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

Why would only Windrunners and Enlightened Truthwatchers have those?

Indeed

I personally believe that each order generally comes with four manifestations of Investiture, Surge 1, Surge 2, Surge hybrid and Resonance.

The hybrid and Resonance seem to be two sides of the same thing, the Resonance being a more passive outgrowth (Windrunners make people gravitate towards them and adhere to them, Lightweavers can make a "cast" of an impression) that falls more along Cognitive/Spirutal/thematic lines.

The hybrid Surge seems to more directly be an outgrowth of mixing the active powers, the Reverse Lashing seems to stick a gravitational pull to something, Adhesion of Gravitation, if you will.

I will note that we don't know enough to establish if there's a pattern here, or even to say if the best understood hybrid Surge is Adhesion applied to Gravitation, Gravitation applied to Adhesion, or an even mix.

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

Surely not everyone, but... man, how would Division and Gravity interact, for example?

As stated above, I do think all Radiants get it.

That aside, Division and Gravitation, hmm...

If my guess is correct then the pattern should be that Surge 2 gets used "through" Surge 1 (Gravitation being Adhered to something as our clearest example).

If this is correct the Skybreaker hybrid should be Division filtered through Gravitation.

One possibility I see is the possibility of creating a more directional Division, something like "only burn north" or "burn to this point but no further" or possibly allowing you to specify a target, creating homing attacks.

(Incidentally, this frames Renarin's stained glass as Progression of Illumination)

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

could you make something implode on itself/make like a "miniature black hole"?

Interestingly I'd think that Adhesion is actually the best bet for implosion, being the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum and all.

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

Transportation is probably the one with the least resonance with others.

Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting might come from there, imo.

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

Love reading your thoughts on that, the whole "taken to the extreme" is exactly what the Unmade would be in a context like that, I think.

Why thank you.

I do wish that I'd been able to articulate it better, but I suppose I got my point across.

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

I wonder if this is in part or in fact another trope, the "powerful being with the mind of a child, still learning". Aka "Re-Shephir doesn't understand what "killing" really does. As in, all the time she's been surrounded by Spren and Fused, both of which are functionally immortal, the idea that what she's doing isn't just an activity but has long and deep implications  might be beyond her.

That is an entirely fair take, good observation.

If we start with the idea that she is, essentially, a creationspren, I think we can unravel some stuff.

Creationspren are known to be drawn to artistic creation, seeming to not have a set shape, but shift in mimicry of objects around them.

Re-Shephir applies this same mimicry to acts of violence/killing, but far more so, she copies not only the appearnace but the whole "art piece."

Given how Sja-anat claims that they were made, then Unmade, an act we can infer stripped their memories from her reflection on what it would mean for her to be Unmade again, I don't find it hard to believe that the Unmade may once have been either cousinspren or  True spren, twisted and inflated by Odium (or made in the same mould as those spren).

In Re-Shephir's case leaving behind a very twisted (or damaged) version of that nature once Unmade.

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

I would hate to see that for our heroes, but as a reader it intrigues me greatly.

Yeah, that. Well put.

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

"Odium doesn't lose" is better put, and would be so much more interesting than Hero of Ages 2: Stormlight Boogaloo

A thousand times yes!

Something novel is more interesting than a retread!

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

gotta say, that makes a lot of sense with my/the "voids are passions are (natural) mental driving forces" thought. Very up Cultivations alley, in of itself.

That is still a great observation.

Hmm, I can see that, it'd be hard to push people where you want them if you don't understand what drives them.

On 2021-09-19 at 0:52 PM, Benkinsky said:

that is a very good point. I always kind of forget that and just think she's opposite-Ruin. She's not. Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a cancer cell. Cultivation is a garden, with carefully selected plants.

Indeed.

And I think that neurotically controlling isn't an unreasonable development.

On 2021-09-19 at 1:02 PM, Benkinsky said:

The Yelig-Nar - Blightwind - Windrunner pairing has been proposed before. This line of thinking works well for that, doesn't it? a "really twisted windspren"? Windspren play pranks by making rudimentary use of adhesion. Yelig-Nar eats your soul and takes over your body. Get pranked.

I've seen the "twisted windspren" angle before, though I'm not entirely convinced.

I can definitely see this being the case, but we lose Mishram again that way.

Hmm.

Part of the problem is that we can't lock down enough of them yet.

On 2021-09-20 at 9:40 PM, Zoey said:

Nergaoul is to Dustbringers and Chanarach. The trait is Brave, and the Thrill does give one a great degree of Bravery

Huh, I don't think I've ever seen an attempt to match them to the divine attributes before, neato.

I'd argue that the Thrill actually doesn't make you brave, being closer to the subversion/twisting of the attributes proposed for most of the others.

Bravery is overcoming fear, the Thrill rather makes you fearless, IMO.

It ends up subverting both Brave and Obedient, in the throes of the Thrill you can be neither.

 

Upon further consideration I do think that you might be onto something with this, what with:

Quote

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

Bolding mine.

The Heralds' duties (which are presumably linked to their associated attributes somehow) are relevant to a method for trapping Unmade.

It's not much of a stretch to assume that they are somehow relevant to the natures of the Unmade, or possibly even spren in general, then.

On 2021-09-20 at 9:40 PM, Zoey said:

Sja-anat sees herself as healing and she is said to love her children. Even Brandon said it could be seen as healing https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14721. Thus she seems to connect to Edgedancers and Vedel

Hmm, I'm not super sure on this one, both because I'm biased towards my own idea that she lines up with Elsecaller and because it breaks from the framework of a twisted or wrong version of the attributes.

Though I suppose the idea that it has to be a twisted expression might just be what I read into it.

In any case, even if what she does can be considered healing, she practices said healing like a mad doctor, basically performing surgeries unasked for on the local wildlife.

On 2021-09-20 at 9:40 PM, Zoey said:

Moeloch seems to be Truthwatchers, as a corrupted Mistspren, Glys, gave the ability to see the future. And it is a corruption of learned and giving. Allowing one to learn of the future, and giving them the ability to do so

I think the connection to learned and giving is a stretch, it feels too general to be true.

No matter what powers were granted it could be phrased as "allowing one to learn [something stemming from the ability] and giving them the ability to do so."

I do however agree entirely with the placement.

I'd say that if one wished to find a corruption of learned and giving it's rather in how the ability to see the future seems to manifest both in Enlightened Truthwatchers and Moelach's subjects.

It twists learned by just granting information, not context, simply seeing a scene without learning anything tangible. Think of it like a game or movie showing flashes of future scenes out of context, you don't actually learn much even though you've been presented with information.

As for giving, both Renarin and Rlain see visions that seemingly come from outside through no prompting of theirs and the Death Rattles are also thrust upon people, with only one person known to have been lucid enough to refuse to speak of the vision he had. It's not a gift as much as an obligation, something thrust upon you.

On 2021-09-20 at 9:40 PM, Zoey said:

Re-shepir seems to be connected to Lightwavers and Shalash, she creates things and all. She also makes pale and monstrous initiations (dishonest), and fears Lightweavers

Not only that, but she imitates rather than create, from what we've seen so far.

On 2021-09-20 at 9:40 PM, Zoey said:

Ashertmarn makes people abandon responsibilities (not dependable) and waste resources through indulgence (not resourceful) so seems to apply to Stonewards and Talenel

That seems to line up with my placement working from the Surges, not much to say there.

On 2021-09-20 at 9:40 PM, Zoey said:

Ba-ado-Mishram seems to be connected to Bondsmiths and Ishar, with how connected she is with Connection, and also she seems to be one who gives guidance to those she connects to, like the Guiding Trait of Ishi

For a long time that's exactly where I'd have placed Mishram myself, but as there's a WoB that there isn't a Bondsmith equivalent that seems far more tenuous, in addition to the discourse earlier in the thread.

It probably bears to be pointed out, the Windrunner attributes are protecting and leading. If she indeed acted like a mini-Odium during the False Desolation she would probably line up more with leading than guiding.

 

¤_¤

[Zoey]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Hmm, I'm not super sure on this one, both because I'm biased towards my own idea that she lines up with Elsecaller and because it breaks from the framework of a twisted or wrong version of the attributes.

Though I suppose the idea that it has to be a twisted expression might just be what I read into it.

In any case, even if what she does can be considered healing, she practices said healing like a mad doctor, basically performing surgeries unasked for on the local wildlife.

¤_¤

It fits with corrupted healing, with Sja-Anat, because as it was said, she tends to heal in a way that many would disagree with being healing. As you said, she is like a mad doctor. It is more like mutation than healing. 

Loving due to her Loving being like forcing it unto people out of misguided viewpoints. She is kinda like a smothering parent, forcing themselves on their child out of a belief that they are needed in every aspect, not caring about the actual wants and needs of their child. 

Quote

It twists learned by just granting information, not context, simply seeing a scene without learning anything tangible. Think of it like a game or movie showing flashes of future scenes out of context, you don't actually learn much even though you've been presented with information.

As for giving, both Renarin and Rlain see visions that seemingly come from outside through no prompting of theirs and the Death Rattles are also thrust upon people, with only one person known to have been lucid enough to refuse to speak of the vision he had. It's not a gift as much as an obligation, something thrust upon you.

This better fits with a corruption of Learned and Giving, yeah. 

 

Quote

It probably bears to be pointed out, the Windrunner attributes are protecting and leading. If she indeed acted like a mini-Odium during the False Desolation she would probably line up more with leading than guiding

I mean, it also fits. I just really like the idea of her being connected to Bondsmiths, due to how closely linked they both are to Connection. Windrunners also have that connection, but it isn't as close I feel. 

But also yeah, Bondsmiths are also strange altogether. 

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2021-09-25 at 4:50 PM, Zoey said:

It fits with corrupted healing, with Sja-Anat, because as it was said, she tends to heal in a way that many would disagree with being healing. As you said, she is like a mad doctor. It is more like mutation than healing. 

Hmm, I could see that.

I personally put more emphasis on her transformative aspect, lining her up with Elsecaller, but I don't think your interpretation is impossible.

On 2021-09-25 at 4:50 PM, Zoey said:

Loving due to her Loving being like forcing it unto people out of misguided viewpoints. She is kinda like a smothering parent, forcing themselves on their child out of a belief that they are needed in every aspect, not caring about the actual wants and needs of their child. 

Interesting, that's not my image of her at all.

Other than her frankensteining the local wildlife, Enlightened True spren apparently need to consent to the process somehow, so she can't just decide it unilaterally all the time.

She also seems to care for her "children" and want a place for them. She doesn't seem to pressure Glys to take particular actions and she even tells Tumi to not just blindly go along with the deal with Mraize, but to decide who to bond for himself.

On 2021-09-25 at 4:50 PM, Zoey said:

This better fits with a corruption of Learned and Giving, yeah. 

Thanks 

On 2021-09-25 at 4:50 PM, Zoey said:

I mean, it also fits. I just really like the idea of her being connected to Bondsmiths, due to how closely linked they both are to Connection.

Oh, I get it.

She parallels the Bondsmiths very well and I'd have put her in that spot myself if I weren't wary of how she had new power at the False Desolation, plus the WoB saying there isn't a Bondsmith equivalent and earlier discourse in the thread.

I have personally thought that she would end up being a Bondsmith spren (for whem the whole war against Odium is sorted and we need Bondsmiths representing Honor, Cultivation, Odium, Honor-Cultivation, Honor-Odium, Cultivation-Odium and all three) but that was before I thought that bonding Unmade would create Bondsmith-level Voidbinders of distinct "orders" and instead that any potent enough spren would grant the Bondsmith powerset.

I'd also think that the Windrunner powerset at the level of Bondsmith could do everything the Bondsmith powerset can do that's pure Adhesion.

On 2021-09-25 at 4:50 PM, Zoey said:

But also yeah, Bondsmiths are also strange altogether. 

Oh, for sure.

 

¤_¤

[Zoey]

9 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Snip

I also see it in a way that like, Adhesion isn't really seen as a Surge to the Voidbringers. So thought that Windrunners, who have Adhesion as their primary Surge, wouldn't fit with any of the Unmade. But it still could, Adhesion seems very close with Ba-Ado-Mishram. And makes sense for Bondsmiths to not associate with any due to them being like, three unique Spren instead of a race of Spren like the other Orders. But also there is how Sibling, a Bondsmith Spren, was effected by Ba-Ado-Mishram being sealed. But yeah, if Brandon said there isn't any to Bondsmiths...

Mmmh, makes sense I guess. 

 

Nergaoul is to Dustbringers and Chanarach. 

Yelig-nar is to Willshapers and Kalak

Sja-anat  is to Edgedancers and Vedel

Moeloch is to Truthwatchers and Pailiah

Re-shepir is to Lightwavers and Shalash,

Ashertmarn is to Stonewards and Talenel

Ba-ado-Mishram seems to be connected to Windrunners and Jezrien

Underlined the ones I am most sure of

So we still have Chemoarish and Dai-Gonarthis to go over. Which would fit with either:

Skybreakers and Nale or

Elsecallers and Battar

 

We don't know enough about either to make a sound decision. 

But let me try

Well, with Dai-Gonarthis, many question whether they are an Unmade at all, it has a lot of confusion surrounding it. However, this can fit with both possible Orders, it is possibly a corruption of Confident, making people lack confidence in what it is. Or of wise, creating an air of avidya and ignorence around itself.

However, Chemoarish is known as the Dustmother, which is like the lesser Surge of the Skybreakers, Division. So possibly:

Chemoarish is to Skybreakers and Nale

Dai-Gonarthis is to Elsecallers and Battar

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Zoey

[Inquisitor #5]

14 hours ago, Zoey said:

I also see it in a way that like, Adhesion isn't really seen as a Surge to the Voidbringers. So thought that Windrunners, who have Adhesion as their primary Surge, wouldn't fit with any of the Unmade.

Yeah, I get that.

I still feel that the Shanay-im are the counterparts to Skybreakers, not Windrunners.

One of the base premises of this thread is of course that Odium is entirely capable of granting Adhesion, Rayse just didn't, or didn't on a large scale.

It also makes sense if each Unmade either started out as a natural spren of Roshar, or was made by letting Odium's Investiture take the same "shape," that they'd retain a connection to the Surges in some form.

If Mishram is a windspren/honorspren "blueprint" inflated to a godspren/near-godspren level, retaining the connection to the Surges that comes with that "blueprint" makes sense to me.

The Unmade may be comparable to the Oathgate spren, in a way. The Oathgate spren don't seem to be standard True spren, but are definitely sapient. One of each pair is also described in a very similar way to inkspren. I find it likely, as speculated on Shardcast, that each pair is at its base an inkspren and a lightspren.

In the same vein, each Unmade might have at its base a True spren, or the "blueprint" thereof, leaning towards having once been normal Rosharan spren personally, each one responding differently to the process of Unmaking, which might explain why some are non-sapient.

In my opinion this also works to explain why there is no Bondsmith equivalent, grabbing the Stormfather, Nightwatcher or Sibling and unmaking them might be both harder and more noticable than just grabbing a random True spren.

15 hours ago, Zoey said:

But also there is how Sibling, a Bondsmith Spren, was effected by Ba-Ado-Mishram being sealed.

Well, the Sibling says that it touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar, so it's not strange that it affected the Sibling too.

Kalak also claims that it broke him in his letter.

If I may get sidetracked for a moment, I've had a theory for a long time now about the sealing of Mishram, one that needs a bit of a rework at present, but still.

Based on the information we have of the sealing a few things stick out.

The Sibling is startlingly ignorant of what happened at the sealing. This is odd as Melishi was their Bondsmith (the only Bondsmith of that generation) and so you'd think that they'd know more specifically what went down.

The spren note how fortuitous it was that the Sibling knew to end their bond early. This doesn't track for me, the Sibling is unlikely to have known what would happen.

What did Mishram want? Oathbringer gives us two examples of Unmade that have somehow been captured, aside from Mishram. Re-Shephir who is noted to have been trapped by someone who understood her and Nergaoul who is captured by someone who knows it intimately. 

What could the strike team supply, what did Melishi have that she wanted?

She set herself up as a god, as proxy-Odium. She Connected to the singers (presumably except the Last Legion), supplying Light and Regal forms.

I will admit that this sounds very Bondsmith-y.

In my earlier version of this theory, back when I still believed that bonding any sufficiently powerful spren would grant the Bondsmith Surges, I thought she wanted a Bondsmith of her own. With my current understanding I don't think that's quite true.

But we know that she displayed at least one never-before-seen power during the False Desolation, the ability to Connect to the singers, otherwise the phrasing "Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people" makes no sense.

Add to that the fact that Melishi saw the Connection lines, and it looks like several users of Adhesion gained new abilities around the same time. (Thanks, @mathiau, IIRC, for that observation.)

So, what happened?

Judging by the Sibling's ignorance of the events, their bond with Melishi possibly ended before the sealing. 

Either that or Melishi died in the process/soon after, as he can not have participated in the Recreance, given the Sibling's alive-ness.

What Melishi had to offer would have been knowledge and understanding. He would have known the typical Bondsmith applications of Adhesion, while Mishram was unfamiliar with the power she now posessed.

Melishi could offer a teacher, and possibly a bondmate, to her.

I don't think it's a stretch to assume that part of the horror that befell the singers at large was because of Mishram's inexperience/untempered power.

When Dalinar traps Nergaoul the Sadeas soldiers don't go mindless, even though they have an Unmade poking into them.

It looks like Mishram overcommitted and when she was sealed the singers payed the price.

Mishram side-track over.

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

Nergaoul is to Dustbringers and Chanarach.

Makes sense, pretty sure that matches with my division by Surges.

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

Yelig-nar is to Willshapers and Kalak

Makes sense, I definitely favour the idea that his powers can be explained that way, after I grew convinced that Mishram goes with Windrunner.

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

Sja-anat  is to Edgedancers and Vedel

Hard disagree, her power seems transformative rather than additive, she changes nature rather than amount.

I place her as Elsecaller.

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

Moeloch is to Truthwatchers and Pailiah

I can't see this not being the case, agree.

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

Re-shepir is to Lightwavers and Shalash

Pretty much stated outright, agree.

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

Ashertmarn is to Stonewards and Talenel

That also seems to line up with my categorisation.

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

Ba-ado-Mishram seems to be connected to Windrunners and Jezrien

Agree.

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

Chemoarish is to Skybreakers and Nale

This matches ideas put forth earlier in the thread, agree.

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

Dai-Gonarthis is to Elsecallers and Battar

As I fill this spot with Sja-anat I have to disagree to stay consistent.

That puts Dai-Gonarthis as Edgedancer for me, possibly Willshaper if Yelig-nar doesn't go there, though I fail to see how expressions of the Edgedancer Surges can explain his use of all of Surgebinding.

 

Gosh I love this stuff, things make a lot of sense to me right now.

 

 

¤_¤

[Frustration]

39 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Kalak also claims that it broke him in his letter.

Kalak claims that eternity of suffering broke him, not BAM binding

Quote

"As one who has suffered for so many centuries … as one whom it broke … please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren.

 

[Inquisitor #5]

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kalak claims that eternity of suffering broke him, not BAM binding

Quote

"As one who has suffered for so many centuries … as one whom it broke … please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren.

See, I connected "one whom it broke" to "find Mishram and release her," not to "one who has suffered for so many centuries."

So I saw "as one whom it broke, find Mishram and release her" where you saw something like "as one who has suffered for so many centuries, one whom it broke."

I don't dispute that's a valid reading, though it's not how it sounded to me.

 

¤_¤

[Zoey]

On 9/28/2021 at 11:04 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Snip

Gonna go far more in depth...

Well, I put Sja-Anat to Edgedancers due to a connection with the idea of Healing in a manner that many would disagree with being Healing. And a loving of her children. It seems to connect well with the Traits of Vedel. 

But it could also be Transformation, I don't see how Sja-Anat would fit with either Wise or Careful. Fits more with a corruption of Loving and Healing. Along with this, the elements connected to Edgedancers are Quartz, glass, crystal, and Sja-Anat shows herself through reflections, that is to say, reflected light. 

The Body Focus of Edgedancers is the Eyes, and she takes the form of a jet black shadow that points the wrong way with white holes for eyes.

She requires reflected light to be seen, which fits with Lucentia, Latin for Light (is a form of Lucens), which can also mean "Showing through; becoming visible", and Tumi did say like "Thank you for granting me eyes", which is like saying that something was made visible to them. It also fits with her defining her transformation as "Enlightening", which has a double meaning of "To supply with Light" and "To make something clear to (someone); to give knowledge or understanding to", which Lucentia would fit with both the literal and metaphorical usages.

Glys, when corrupted, took the form of a crystal .And corrupted Shamespren also take on a form like one of the Essence, resemble pieces of broken glass instead of petals.

It all fits with Edgedancers.

Along with this, it seems that Sja-Anat was attracted to Ashertmarn, as they both appeared in Kholinar, and Edgedancers also show a connection to Stonewards. 

Furthermore, Edgedancers have a connection with Truthwatchers, Moeloch, and it is apparently quite easy for Sja-Anat to convince Mistspren to side with her and be changed. She seems to have an especially close correlation with them compared to other Spren. Might be displayed in the connection on the chart. 

 -------------------------------

Nergaoul Is Dustbringers, sealed in Ruby. It is like an incorporeal gas, which seems to be like a soul. And it sparks a fire inside of them. Making them be filled with a great bloodlust and sense of bravery, corrupted in that it is less like being brave and going against fear, and is more like a complete lack of fear. 

Quote

he Thrill didn't hate. Though some spren could make decisions, others were like animals—primal, driven by a single overpowering directive. Live. Burn. Laugh. Or in this case, fight.

In a sense, it breaks down ones sentience (Division) and drives them to an animalistic battle rage. 

Quote

Something came surging out. Something primeval, something Venli had felt but never truly known. Red mist. Ephemeral, like a shadow you see on a dark day and mistake for something real. Charging red horses, angry and galloping. The forms of men, killing and dying, shedding blood and reveling in it. Bones piled atop one another, making a hill upon which men struggled.

The red mist climbed up from the surging waves, rolling out onto an empty section of rock, northward along the rim of the water. It brought to her a lust for the battlefield. A beautiful focus, a Thrill for the fight.

Shows countless people breaking eachother, and dividing eachother into smaller and small bits through violence. And encouraging others to break down and do the same to others. This seems connected to a corruption of Division, breaking things down,  both minds and bodies. 

-------------------------------
Moeloch is connected with forcing a "gift" upon those that don't desire it (Giving) and give them knowledge of the future without the context to understand it (Learned). Along with that, corrupted Mistspren see the future in a manner similar to Moeloch, it even is forced upon them just like with Moeloch. 

-------------------------------

Re-shephir fears Lightweavers, it only serves to imitate other things (Creative and Honest). She also seems attracted to the spilling of blood (and the focus of Shash is Blood). This one we basically know for sure. 

Re-Shephir also hid in Urithuru, the Sibling, and according to one theory I found:

The three Bondsmith Spren connect to three different orders, Skyfather to Windrunners, Truthwatchers to Nightwatcher, and Sibling to Stonewards. Which all connect in the chart to Bondsmiths. The Sibling basically is Urithiru, therefore, it would show a connection between the attributes of Re-Shephir and the Sibling. Which could show why she choose to hide in Urithiru.

-------------------------------

Yelig-nar also is undoubtedly Willshapers, it was connected to Amethyst.  Just like how Nergaoul is connected with Ruby. Don't fully see the way it connects to all of the other parts, but it is definitely connected to Amethyst. And by granting Surges makes one more resolute, building them up to become stronger, but also breaking down their body through transforming them into amethyst. 

Willshapers also connect to Dustbringers, and both Yelig-nar and Nargoul appeared at the Battle of Thaylen Field. This connection, mixed with the connection between Ashertmarn and Sja-Anat, and lesser so Re-Shephir and Sibling, shows that the connections can mean some form of attraction or thematic connection, even to just those associated with it. Especially so in showing that Unmade are often seen alongside an Unmade associated with a Order connected to them in the chart. 

-------------------------------

Ashertmarn  is Stonewards, it makes one become useless through becoming obsessed with mindless indulgence. This leaves one not dependable, as they become just indulgent; and furthermore, indulgence is the opposite of being resourceful.  It can connect with the surges in how it makes people weak and movable like puddy, making them less resolute and determined, weakening their minds and determination. Much like what Tension and Cohesion do to physical matter. 

More weak, Talus is the bone in the foot which touches the ground (as some flesh and such between them, but meh, let me have this) and Ashertmarn has veins and arteries which connect right into the ground. Kinda like a Talus. (As I said, this is vague and tenuous)

Along with this, it seems that Sja-Anat was attracted to Ashertmarn, as they both appeared in Kholinar, and Edgedancers also show a connection to Stonewards. 

---------------------------------

Chemoarish connects with Skybreakers due to the fact that the countersurge of Skybreakers is Division, breaking things down into Dust. 

Quote

Chemoarish, the Dustmother, has some of the most varied lore surrounding her. The wealth of it makes sorting lies from truths extremely difficult. I do believe she is not the Nightwatcher, contrary to what some stories claim. 

People don't exactly know what she is, it brings about a lot of confusion and lack of confidence, and Confidence is the aspect of Skybreakers. People also unjustly conflated her with the Nightwatcher, despite the accusations being false. Corruption of Just. 

We can't get much more as we only really know about her from epigraphs and like, one interlude mentioning her. (Way of Kings, I-4)

---------------------------------

This likely leaves Dai-Gonarthis with Elsecallers, it is associated with the Scouring of Aimia, an accident (Not Careful) and also, the true Scouring probably came due to a lack of Wisdom, and furthermore, people question whether or not they are actual an Unmade or not (further lack of wisdom surrounding it). Also, weak, but if you look, the Scouring is most likely associated with the Dawnshard of Change, and Elsecallers are associated with Transformation (that is to say, Change). 

It also would show a connection with Dai-Gonarthis (Elsecallers) and Chemoarish (Skybreakers) which are both the Unmade that have a great air of mystery and ignorance around them. 

----------------------------------

This means Ba-Ado-Mishram is connected to Windrunners, as we know she isn't connected to Bondsmiths. She seems to have been the Leader to the Fused (Leading), but also seems that she forced it on them, and in a sense, made them too dependent on her so that those connected to her her gravely effected when she was sealed away (corruption of Protecting). Windrunners also have a close connection of Adhesion, which is the Surge of Connection, basically. So Ba-Ado-Mishram would be the Unmade of Adhesion. 

Further showing the idea of connections, Ba-Ado-Mishram would connect to Re-Shephir and Sja-Anat. And we know that Re-Shiphir was attracted to Sibling, and the Sibling was deeply affected by the sealing away of Mishram. Likely displaying some form of association there. 

Connection to Sja-Anat, well, both do display the ability to effect Spren or such Spiritually, able to cause massive changes to them in varying methods. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Zoey

[Zoey]

Bumping this thread

[Inquisitor #5]

Oh, it's been too long since this has been on my mind.

I can't recall my exact thoughts at the time, but here goes.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Well, I put Sja-Anat to Edgedancers due to a connection with the idea of Healing in a manner that many would disagree with being Healing. And a loving of her children. It seems to connect well with the Traits of Vedel. 

Hmm, this makes sense.

Progression has been shown to not just heal, but make things grow.

If indeed Voidbinding generally exists in the gaps of Surgebinding, then a Voidish expression of Progression should show more Cognitive/Spiritual manifestations, compared to the generally Physical manifestations of Surgebinding.

This could explain how Sja-anat is able to alter Cognitive beings.

Though Renarin throws a wrench into this understanding. While his usage of Progression seems to pull toward the Spiritual in a notable way, it still heals normally on top of that.

Then again, we've never seen Sja-anat Elighten a spren in detail.

Of course, Sja-anat has access to more Investiture than Renarin, and she has more experience with her powers.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

But it could also be Transformation, I don't see how Sja-Anat would fit with either Wise or Careful. Fits more with a corruption of Loving and Healing.

Hmm, I don't know if I've mentioned it in this thread, but I did have a theory a while back that the Unmade line up with the attributes taken to an unhealthy extreme.

Add to this a thought I had while going through this (which I will credit to how much Persona I've been playing lately), the attributes aren't opposites in the Unmade, they are "reversed." The same idea in a negative direction.

Funnily enough, Sja-anat lines up with Wise and Careful, but corrupted Loving and Healing. (Though how corrupted Loving is is up for debate.) She's careful to not be found out in her game of 5d chess with Rayse and very self-reflective (ha!).

She however "heals" unasked for and loves the outcast that she made that way. She's also incredibly cold and calculating when she needs to be, what with the whole sacrificing some children so others may live.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Along with this, the elements connected to Edgedancers are Quartz, glass, crystal, and Sja-Anat shows herself through reflections, that is to say, reflected light. 

The Body Focus of Edgedancers is the Eyes, and she takes the form of a jet black shadow that points the wrong way with white holes for eyes.

She requires reflected light to be seen, which fits with Lucentia, Latin for Light (is a form of Lucens), which can also mean "Showing through; becoming visible", and Tumi did say like "Thank you for granting me eyes", which is like saying that something was made visible to them. It also fits with her defining her transformation as "Enlightening", which has a double meaning of "To supply with Light" and "To make something clear to (someone); to give knowledge or understanding to", which Lucentia would fit with both the literal and metaphorical usages.

This whole thing is very interesting, and can probably be connected to this WoB as well:

Quote

Oversleep

Will there be Enlightened spren of other Radiant Orders than Truthwatchers, and why does Sja-anat like Truthwatchers so much?

Brandon Sanderson

The reason Sja-anat likes Truthwatcher spren the most is because they are the most willing. And she considers what she's doing offering Enlightenment, not corrupting. And she considers their willingness to be a part of this. Outside observers might consider her methods less... involving less volition on the parts of some of the spren that she touches. They might argue with her on that point. In this case, as it comes with the two Truthwatcher spren that you see in the books, they both went to what they are willingly. Fully willingly to become what they are. They are, you might say, participants in her plans. So that's why she wants them.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

The spren that show up in the Physical as reflected light are the ones that are most amenable to Sja-anat.

Oddly mistspren are one order over from this placement of Sja-anat though.

Light does seem to be an overarching theme here in any case.

Interestingly, Enlightened mistspren take the form of a crystal instead, changing their relationship to light.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Glys, when corrupted, took the form of a crystal .And corrupted Shamespren also take on a form like one of the Essence, resemble pieces of broken glass instead of petals.

I don't think there's much to this, no other Enlightened spren are described as crystalline, IIRC.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Along with this, it seems that Sja-Anat was attracted to Ashertmarn, as they both appeared in Kholinar, and Edgedancers also show a connection to Stonewards. 

Eh, I'm not so sure about this. I'm pretty sure that the Unmade generally go where Odium wants them. 

Yelig-Nar, Sja-anat and Ashertmarn are all in Kholinar at the time.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Furthermore, Edgedancers have a connection with Truthwatchers, Moeloch, and it is apparently quite easy for Sja-Anat to convince Mistspren to side with her and be changed. She seems to have an especially close correlation with them compared to other Spren. Might be displayed in the connection on the chart. 

I'm not inclined to ascribe too much to the connections on the charts, beyond the general connection to the pre- and succeding orders.

And this thing:

Quote

TGJackass

The Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are depicted separate from the other Orders in that neat little chart. Why is that? I get that the Bondsmiths are special, but why are the Truthwatchers beneath them, in the middle? And is there a reasoning behind how the other Orders are placed, beyond just what surge they share?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yes and originally I had a lot more with this chart that was going to be meaningful for the magic system and things like that. And it turns out this was way too complicated to work into the book. You can maybe see some of it in Way of Kings Prime. I can't remember how much of it's in there, but at the end of the day, when I was building it, I'm like, "I am... this is one of those times where I'm doing a little too much, getting too much into the weeds," so to speak. But you can, you will be able to... See, it's tricky because you're gonna be seeing a lot of Renarin version of Truthwatchers and less of other version of Truthwatchers. But let's say that Truthwatchers have some sort of abilities relating to Cognitive and Spiritual Realm set in a similar way to Bondsmiths, and because of that they were often kind of opposed but aligned, and the chart is a human construction trying to explain things—much as the same way that the Allomantic chart is—and because of that, they're responding to things that have happened, that are partially cultural partially, part of the magic and they built the charts, if that makes sense.

 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

Which is already kinda tenuous.

And now I wonder how much of Renarin's weirdness is Truthwatcher, how much is an Enlightened spren and how much is both.

Anyway...

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Nergaoul Is Dustbringers, sealed in Ruby. It is like an incorporeal gas, which seems to be like a soul. And it sparks a fire inside of them. Making them be filled with a great bloodlust and sense of bravery, corrupted in that it is less like being brave and going against fear, and is more like a complete lack of fear. 

Makes sense.

Both brave and obedient are twisted or broken here.

Brave, as you've noted, in that the Thrill makes you fearless rather than brave.

Obedient in that, well, berserker rage. Discipline and order is broken entirely.

This doesn't entirely fit with my idea of the attributes being negative versions of themselves, but hey.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Shows countless people breaking eachother, and dividing eachother into smaller and small bits through violence. And encouraging others to break down and do the same to others. This seems connected to a corruption of Division, breaking things down,  both minds and bodies. 

Hmm. I don't agree with that, I think it's just a representation of battle/fighting.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Moeloch is connected with forcing a "gift" upon those that don't desire it (Giving) and give them knowledge of the future without the context to understand it (Learned). Along with that, corrupted Mistspren see the future in a manner similar to Moeloch, it even is forced upon them just like with Moeloch. 

Yep, full agreement on Moelach.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Re-shephir fears Lightweavers, it only serves to imitate other things (Creative and Honest).

Yep

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

She also seems attracted to the spilling of blood (and the focus of Shash is Blood).

Heh, neat.

I'd not put too much stock in the body focuses, but maybe there's something there.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

The three Bondsmith Spren connect to three different orders, Skyfather to Windrunners, Truthwatchers to Nightwatcher, and Sibling to Stonewards.

That makes an odd amount of sense.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

The Sibling basically is Urithiru, therefore, it would show a connection between the attributes of Re-Shephir and the Sibling. Which could show why she choose to hide in Urithiru.

I don't see it.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Yelig-nar also is undoubtedly Willshapers, it was connected to Amethyst.  Just like how Nergaoul is connected with Ruby. Don't fully see the way it connects to all of the other parts, but it is definitely connected to Amethyst.

So it seems.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

And by granting Surges makes one more resolute, building them up to become stronger, but also breaking down their body through transforming them into amethyst.

I think we can look at it as similar to Moelach, the Surges are basically trust upon you, it's not something you come into over time, ie. it's not built up, you're just saddled with the power without learning to use it.

Similarly, you don't become resolute by building (heh) yourself up. You become resolute or you die, which honestly reminds me of psychological trauma.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Willshapers also connect to Dustbringers, and both Yelig-nar and Nargoul appeared at the Battle of Thaylen Field.

Again, I disagree with this.

In this case, multiple parts of Rayse's plan hinges on Nergaoul's influence, and Yelig-Nar is held in a gemstone and granted to Amaram as a reward. Both of them are there because Rayse wants them there.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

This connection, mixed with the connection between Ashertmarn and Sja-Anat, and lesser so Re-Shephir and Sibling, shows that the connections can mean some form of attraction or thematic connection, even to just those associated with it. Especially so in showing that Unmade are often seen alongside an Unmade associated with a Order connected to them in the chart. 

Given what I said above, I think this is pretty tenuous.

I find "Odium wanted them there" to be a more plausible and elegant explanation.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Ashertmarn  is Stonewards, it makes one become useless through becoming obsessed with mindless indulgence. This leaves one not dependable, as they become just indulgent; and furthermore, indulgence is the opposite of being resourceful.  It can connect with the surges in how it makes people weak and movable like puddy, making them less resolute and determined, weakening their minds and determination. Much like what Tension and Cohesion do to physical matter. 

Agree

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Chemoarish connects with Skybreakers due to the fact that the countersurge of Skybreakers is Division, breaking things down into Dust. 

I agree on the connection.

Countersurge, good word.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

People don't exactly know what she is, it brings about a lot of confusion and lack of confidence, and Confidence is the aspect of Skybreakers. People also unjustly conflated her with the Nightwatcher, despite the accusations being false. Corruption of Just.

These I find to be very tenuous, if the Unmade indeed align/misalign with the attributes, I'd connect them to the nature of the given Unmade.

We haven't seen anything that we know is of Chemoarish, so I don't think we can speculate on how the attributes relate to her.

It seems out of place that the attributes would apply to the lore surrounding the Unmade, rather than the Unmade itself.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

This likely leaves Dai-Gonarthis with Elsecallers, it is associated with the Scouring of Aimia, an accident (Not Careful) and also, the true Scouring probably came due to a lack of Wisdom, and furthermore, people question whether or not they are actual an Unmade or not (further lack of wisdom surrounding it).

So it does.

As explained above, I don't think the attributes can be connected to the lore around the Ummade.

We also basically don't know anything about Dai-Gonarthis, so it's again hard to map the attibutes.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Also, weak, but if you look, the Scouring is most likely associated with the Dawnshard of Change, and Elsecallers are associated with Transformation (that is to say, Change). 

I don't think that tracks, as far as we know, Change has been sitting in the mural basically unknown for ages. It was also "inert" as far as the Sleepless knew, they didn't think that anyone could get it.

Quote

fullyoperational

Why didn't the Sleepless have a guard watching the Dawnshard?

Brandon Sanderson

They did--but only a couple of hordelings to give warning. They never thought, in a million years, the intruders would absorb the Dawnshard. It wasn't seen as possible for a variety of reasons that, some day, might be clear.

Up until the moment realizing what had happened, they assumed they were in complete control, as the humans were locked into a place with no other exit and there were swarms blocking the way back out through the water.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 12, 2020)

We also know very little about the Scouring.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

This means Ba-Ado-Mishram is connected to Windrunners, as we know she isn't connected to Bondsmiths.

Yes

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

She seems to have been the Leader to the Fused (Leading)

We don't actually know this, it's possible that her leadership role is wholly based on the False Desolation.

Leading may also be twisted in that she simply asserts herself as a god, rather than, well, earning the trust of her people or anything remotely like that.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

but also seems that she forced it on them, and in a sense, made them too dependent on her so that those connected to her her gravely effected when she was sealed away (corruption of Protecting).

I don't think that the consequences of her sealing can relate to the corruption of protecting, as that wasn't done by her.

Interestingly, her prosecuting the war seemingly for her own self-aggrandizement clashes with the ostensible goal of the Fused, freeing/protecting the singers.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Windrunners also have a close connection of Adhesion, which is the Surge of Connection, basically. So Ba-Ado-Mishram would be the Unmade of Adhesion. 

Yes

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

the Sibling was deeply affected by the sealing away of Mishram. Likely displaying some form of association there. 

Ehh, given that we're told it hurt all Roshar, I don't think the connection is particularly close or significant.

On 2021-09-28 at 8:40 PM, Zoey said:

Connection to Sja-Anat, well, both do display the ability to effect Spren or such Spiritually, able to cause massive changes to them in varying methods. 

How so?

I can't recall BAM having any confirmed ability to affect spren or other Cognitive beings. She seems to have been able to do like a Bondsmith and make Light, and she could somehow supply Regal forms, but I'm not willing to say that she has any known ability to directly affect Cognitive entities this way.

The fact that her sealing apparently broke almost an entire species in a fundamental way I don't think counts for her power-set, just like a Lashing running out doesn't give a Gravitation user the power of breaking someone's bones.

 

All-in-all, I think this is incredibly well-reasoned.

Colour me mostly convinced, though I obviously have some quibbles left.

 

¤_¤

[Zoey]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

snip

Ehh, given that we're told it hurt all Roshar, I don't think the connection is particularly close or significant.

 

Well, we know Sibling is basically the child of the light of Honor and Cultivation, and also, as seen in another thread

 

Ba is related to Bah, meaning child

Ado is close to Adoda, meaning light

Mishram is close to Mishim, the Moon of Cultivation, and also seems to have the -ram, of Maram, meaning Honor. 

Sando did give credence to this

Quote

LewsTherinTelescope

Does "Ba-Ado-Mishram" mean "child of the light of Cultivation and Honor"?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but you're doing a pretty good job picking apart the linguistics of that.

Maybe Ba-Ado-Mishram is like a Proto-Sibling that was later corrupted and Unmade by Odium. She does seem closely connected with the Singers, who we know were previously on the side of Honor and Cultivation. So likely, Ba-Ado-Mishram was created before the Sibling, when Honor and Cultivation defected to humanity, Mishram chose to stay with the Singers, and thus joined with Odium. 

 

Also

Quote

We don't actually know this, it's possible that her leadership role is wholly based on the False Desolation.

Well, if we do take Mythica seriously

Quote

 I find Ba-Ado-Mishram to be the most interesting of the Unmade. She is said to have been keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces, their commander during some of the Desolations. I do not know how this relates to the ancient god of the enemy, named Odium

She was definitely amongst the higher ranking of the Unmade, it appears. 

Quote

I can't recall BAM having any confirmed ability to affect spren or other Cognitive beings. She seems to have been able to do like a Bondsmith and make Light, and she could somehow supply Regal forms, but I'm not willing to say that she has any known ability to directly affect Cognitive entities this way.

Well, she did seem to. She had a great effect on the Sibling, and also

Quote

"As one who has suffered for so many centuries … as one whom it broke … please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren.

For I believe that in confining her, we have caused a greater wound to Roshar than any ever realized."

Rhythm of War, Chapter 97, Epigraph

Definitely had a large effect on Spren.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Zoey