Inquisitor #5

Odium, the Fused, and yet another attempt at mapping the Unmade to the Radiant Orders

83 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Let's see if I get this straight, your analogy is that I can either make a delivery, say, a letter, myself, send it by mail or leave it on my desk?

Personal delivery being the old method seen with Lezian at the end of RoW, mail being the Everstorm and on my desk being Odium reclaiming his Investiture from a Fused?

If this is the case, why does Rayse say he can't hold the Fused back? They're not negotiating the letter of the law here, they're negotiating the spirit.

Rayse saying he can't hold them back can't be true if he can tell them "stay on Braize or else." Rayse seems unable to excert that kind of influence, so this doesn't work to me.

Probalbly because he dont have direct controll over them. They are part of his power, but, like other Spren, are independent in terms of actions and will from source. He even need The Nine to order Fused, cant "send" Orders dirrectly to their minds, like Harmony can do with Kandra. He can tell them "Stay on Braize or die", but thing is, many of them are insane and probably dont even understand this! Others can disobey him, like Leshwi. So he would need to reclaim his Investiture from them, but we know de-investing things is hard, dificoult and exhausted, this will weakened him to the poit Cultivation will kill him.

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17 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

He can tell them "Stay on Braize or die", but thing is, many of them are insane and probably dont even understand this!

OK, that part's fair, I had not considered the ones that are insane beyond comprehending.

To be fair, I don't think that an agreement in good faith would put the fault on Odium if those that are too far gone to understand disobeyed. Just like we don't expect people incapable of comprehending the law to be able to follow it properly.

They'd also be far less of a problem without the Fused who can think pushing the normal singers to give themselves up for them.

26 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

He even need The Nine to order Fused, cant "send" Orders dirrectly to their minds, like Harmony can do with Kandra.

Leshwi imples that the soldiers advancing on them when her faction and the humans prepare a final stand got their orders directly from Rayse. She says that what they're singing is a clear sign that Odium wants her to know she'll be tortured and all that.

29 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

So he would need to reclaim his Investiture from them

Yes, is this not what you were suggesting was a viable option in your earlier post?

30 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

but we know de-investing things is hard, dificoult and exhausted, this will weakened him to the poit Cultivation will kill him.

Where do we see that? I can't remember too much major interaction with Shards happening.

I will say that I 100% believe that Rayse's threat to Turash was to do exactly that, "reclaim that which gives you persistent life" is hard to read any other way.

 

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33 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

But this is a threat made after the Everstorm became a thing.

The same Everstorm that Rayse says will let the Fused be reborn without him.

If the threat is about stopping his being reborn it's a bit like threatening to lock the door when you've not yet finished installing the walls.

I don't think ever said to Dalinar he couldn't exterminate the Fused, just that as long as the Fused existed they would come back on their own

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I'd also argue that persistent life sounds more like a term for continual existence, while something like recurrent life would be indicative of continual rebirth.

You have a point. Normally CSs require regular intakes of investiture to stay around (Kelek implies the Heralds still do) so maybe he was talking about that, or maybe Odium being Odium he didn't want to kill Leshwi but to torture her forever.

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This sounds reasonable, assuming I'm understang you correctly.
Am I correct in assuming that you think bonding an Unmade would give access to a complete/fuller version of their associated Surge(s) just like how bonding a Bondsmith spren seems to grant access to a complete/fuller version of Tension and Adhesion (Spiritual, Cognitive and Physical aspects)?

I'm always going back and forth on whether Boundsmiths can use physical Tension and Adhesion. On one hand the statue thing feels very physical but on the other hand it wouldn't be the first time we see a modification on the soul having immediate physical effects and Dalinar is unable to create a pressure mask but on the third hand it could just be he doesn't know how to make one yet.

But yes.

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(I don't know if you've seen mine and Frustration's big terminology disagreement here, in short, I don't think that there's a distinction into Voids and Surges, but rather that the Surges have multiple forms of expression, which is what I tried to explain in the ground work section.)

Yes I remember that. I'll try to use "Surge of X" for the fundamental thing being manipulated (light for Illumination, pressure for Adhesion, "things can't be at the same place" for Cohesion..." and S-(surge) for the H+C expression of that fundamental thing.

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As for the bit on gloryspren, that makes sense, though I'd quibble that the non-Bondsmith Radiants dabble in non-Physical aspects of their Surges, but I get what you're saying. And to be fair, standard Radiants seem to mostly do Physical things, so everything in this section is terminology quibbling and not disagreement.

Definitely, by the way I'll take the occasion to throw the idea that Taln was using spiritual S-Tension to avoid breaking.

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As a thought experiment, that I hope can easily determine if we're actually thinking the same way, imagine you had an honorspren at the level of power of the Unmade/Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Sibling, would bonding that spren grant you Adhesion and Gravitation at the same level as bonding a Bondsmith spren grants you Tension and Adhesion?

It would.

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I think the only time we've seen this is with the listener farming method, which is why I had the caveat of not induced from the outside in the explanation of my second post. The farming method uses Light and a stimulus, I feel very inclined to label it a proto-fabrial, personally.

Definitely, but that's my point. How would a Spren in a Fabrial manipulate a Surge it can't use?

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I'm not so sure that this is a strong correlation, though I do see where both you and @Zoey are coming from with this. If we saw the influence of other Unmade, or spren in general, causing crystal growth in various colours I'd be more inclined ascribe it significance.

Fair

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There's also the fact that on what we know as the Voidbinding chart, the Windrunner position has a purple tone to it as well.

Purple, not Violet. Kaladin wouldn't have called something Purple an amethyst, just like he wouldn't accept something not transparent to be called a diamond

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Songstream

Q1: Can synthetic diamond contain Stormlight?

Q2: if yes, can a perfect gemstone that never loses Stormlight be made of synthetic material?

Q3: Has anyone already tried bringing synthetic diamond to Roshar at this point?

Q4: Is the increasing heaviness caused by Connection limited to Shadesmar, or does it also apply to the Physical Realm?

Q5: Will Mraize ever say, “He who controls the Stormlight controls the Cosmere”?

Brandon Sanderson

Answer to one is yes. Answer to two is, "Never is a LONG time." Three is not yet. I'll RAFO the other two.

VergenceScatter

Do diamonds have to be clear to hold Investiture, or can they be of any color?

Brandon Sanderson

On Roshar, part of the definition of a diamond would be that it's clear.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 1, 2020)
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That is an interesting angle I hadn't considered, I took all of her noted abilities during the False Desolation in the category "Mishram's suprising new powers," which meant I did not include them for consideration, as they all seemed Bondsmith-y to me.

Funny, the fact her power seemed Bondsmith-y is the reason I put her with the Windrunners in the first place^^

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This is also why I've lumped her in with Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish, even though we actually know of stuff that she's capable of. The abilities she displayed during the False Desolation are talked about as if they're something new, so her powerset before then is as much an unknown as those of the other two.

Interestingly, her gaining this new power coincide with other Adhesion users gaining new powers

 

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Thematically Mishram during the False Desolation seems to act as proxy-Odium, in much the same way that Dalinar is proxy-Honor in the present, aligning with the "office" of Bondsmith.

While Dalinar is a proxy-Honor this days from the way the Aharietiam proclamation went I feel in the ancients day it was Jezrien's role.

Also remember than while Bondsmiths are indeed Guides, the Windrunners are Leaders.

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In an earlier draft I actually made this connection myself, but abandoned it.

I don't think it needs to be untrue, it just gets a bit weird when you work in a paradigm where this would mean that the power of Dustmother should mainly be a manifestation of Gravitation, and not the more intuitive Division.

That seemed a bit contradictory with your latter statement of Gravitation being just Cheo's primary Surge instead of it's only Surge.

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That is really interesting, I think I can see what you're getting at, even though it seems your post has lost some words (unless the spoiler box is only supposed to have three words in it)

Having not read Dragonsteel Prime that's not an angle I could have taken, so that's really great imput! :)

Oops

Basically I was saying that if physical Cohesion is "telling things where they should be" then spiritual Cohesion can easily be "telling physical laws how they Should be" which would technically not grant you any Surge but would make it look like you have them all. I was using LTT's theory to justify giving such a stupid amount of power to spiritual Cohesion and to explain why I assumed S-Cohesion and V-Cohesion working basically the same.

Spoiler

Basically if Live and Die both allows to move subatomic particle for a different purpose then H+C and O can do the same with atoms

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Well, there is the bit where he's said to have broken into Nohadon's chancery and murdered all his scribes, though of course we don't know if they differentiated Yelig-nar from his host historically.

I think I was actually a bit hasty saying Yelig-nar never did anything himself, yes we don't know what he can do while not bounded (which is the actually important part of my point) but the quote

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Yelig-nar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed

Implies once he consumed his host the host he assumed control of the body.

 

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That is an interesting observation, I'm not entirely sure about it though.

The one perfect gem in the Thaylen gemstone reserve happened to be the right kind to capture Nergaoul? To me this strains disbelief.

On the other hand, if it's correct Team Honor got very lucky indeed. :lol:

If the gem couldn't trap Nergaoul the Fused wouldn't have tried to steal it, wouldn't they?

Though we know Flamesprens can be trapped both in rubies and in amethysts.

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We also know from Venli's chat with the mountain that the Dawnsingers could wield at least Cohesion and the simplest explanation for abilities seen from forms of power is also the Surges, if in a limited capacity, like Venli's Connection (Adhesion) and the stormforms' lightning (my current guess is a form of Division, but we know too little at this stage).

If you like tinfoil hat theories here's one about a possibility for lightnings to be a form of V-Tension

Spoiler

According to Khriss, S-Tension is the manipulation of what she calls "the weak axial force", in world some people consider axi to be "the smallest theoretical subdivision of matter" but most uses it as a world for "atoms", I'll assume Khriss is of the latter.

On the scale of atoms there are basically two forces, the Van der Walls interaction and the Pauli exclusion principle, also known as "atoms can't overlap".

Since :

  1. The Van der Walls interaction is much weaker than the Pauli exclusion
  2. Manipulating the fact that atoms can't overlap would allow for people to phase through walls like the Deep Ones do
  3. The Van der Walls interaction is the reason some things are stiff and other soft

I think S-Tension is the Van der Walls interaction and Cohesion is about bypassing the excusion principle.

Know what is the Van der Walls interaction? It's the fact that globally neutral inhomogeneous ensembles of charges (like atoms) attract, my point is it's a part of Electrostatics. Now the question is "is the S-Tension Van der Walls's interaction because the Surge of Tension is always Van der Walls's interaction or is S-Tension Van der Walls's interaction because the Surge of Tension is Electrostatics and the H+C expression of Electrostatics is Van der Walls's interaction?"

Let's assume the latter for a second, what would be the most Odium application of Electrostatics? Lightnings.

This has the advantage to keep V-Division open for Decayforms

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This also lets Odium get away with as little Investing as possible, he doesn't need to create a direct backdoor into Surgebinding, or build his own Surgebinding, or grant access to a theoretical Braizish Surgebinding.

Also don't forget the Fused were created on Roshar

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

OK, that part's fair, I had not considered the ones that are insane beyond comprehending.

Actually it's the traitors who matter the most, even if he kills them as they cross the barrier once they cross it he has broken his word.

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2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

He just needs to make Cognitive Shadows out of this one batch, tweak them a bit so they're functional and physically able, oh, and add some markers that make them tap into an additional part of the system he's already exploiting (singer biology), letting them have magic powers, barely any effort on his part, way lower risk of getting all Invested and way less power spent because he just copied a key rather than build a house from scratch.

in RoW Leshwi says her soul has been possesed by Odium for so long she can't bond a spren. Being a CS obviously isn't enough for that as Nale bonded one, so something else must be happening

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

in RoW Leshwi says her soul has been possesed by Odium for so long she can't bond a spren. Being a CS obviously isn't enough for that as Nale bonded one, so something else must be happening

She could simply be wrong

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59 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't think ever said to Dalinar he couldn't exterminate the Fused, just that as long as the Fused existed they would come back on their own

OK, that's a fair distinction.

He could still have offered something like "I will do what I can to restrain those sane enough to understand and punish those who step out of line." Which could have been as close of an accomodation with what Dalinar wanted as he could manage without finding himself in an impossible situation.

But he just shouts about it being impossible.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Normally CSs require regular intakes of investiture to stay around

Huh, you know, I'd gotten the impression it was the other way around. :lol:

I thought that was a Nalthian design flaw.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Kelek implies the Heralds still do

Welp, yet another reason to re-read RoW then.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Odium being Odium he didn't want to kill Leshwi but to torture her forever

That I can believe of the guy who would (allegedly) flatten a city to get at Hoid and was petty enough to break the statue of Taln specifically.

Rayse is both petty and such a huge drama queen, honestly, I can see why he used to be friends with Hoid, they're both more operatic than a Dracula-era vampire.

Take the example with Leshwi, the fact that he got orders to the troops advancing on the last stand implies he could have just popped in to say she's utterly screwed, but he chooses to relay this message through song instead.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I'm always going back and forth on whether Boundsmiths can use physical Tension and Adhesion.

I think I can solve half of that conundrum for you:

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He sucked in Stormlight. Murmuring rose from those watching as Dalinar began to glow, then did . . . something else. Commanded the Light. When he rose, he left Kadash stuck to the ground in a pool of Radiance that held him fast, binding him to the stone. The ardent wriggled, helpless.

-Oathbringer, chapter 16

I'd say that Dalinar gluing Kadash to the floor qualifies for Physical manifestation.

I also find it likely that that means the same is true of Tension, but I don't think we've seen a single unequivocal use of tension yet, so who the heck knows...

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Yes I remember that.

Ah, I couldn't remember who else was active in... whichever thread that was. 

I'm better at remembering, say, minor quotes from fantasy stories far better than I remember what was said to whom when.

Though I remember interacting with you, Frustration, LTT and a couple others quite a lot recently, I'm hard-pressed to recall who was active in which thread. And of course people also read threads without contributing to them, making it even harder to know who's seen what.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I'll try to use "Surge of X" for the fundamental thing being manipulated (light for Illumination, pressure for Adhesion, "things can't be at the same place" for Cohesion..." and S-(surge) for the H+C expression of that fundamental thing

OK, I think I get your terminology then.:)

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I'll take the occasion to throw the idea that Taln was using spiritual S-Tension to avoid breaking.

Ohh, interesting.

I could definitely see the Heralds having unrestricted* access to their given Surges, being actively able to utilise Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations of their powers much more readily than standard Radiants, either from being prototypes, from getting it through a direct subscription to Honor or from some combination thereof.

*Barring anything Honor chose to hang a Danger! sign on.

This WoB:

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WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018)

Might also imply that the Heralds could all have functioned at something like Radiant Bondsmith levels of power, which feels like it'd even the odds a little bit when they're just ten people.

Now, whether this means that they had access to stonger mostly Physical manifestations of power or Bondsmith-style "complete" Surges, who knows.

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

It would.

We are in agreement then.

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Purple, not Violet. Kaladin wouldn't have called something Purple an amethyst, just like he wouldn't accept something not transparent to be called a diamond

As you might know (as that lovely stone in you picture is an ametrine, no?) amethyst comes in a variety of hues.

Picture under spoiler

Spoiler

IMG_2494-scaled.thumb.jpg.0ec7fbd9dfd0da6bfb987d9d9dc99460.jpg

Amethyst is also the only purple among the polestones, aka the gems any Rosharan would know the colour of, so what else would he ID a purple crystal as on sight?

Or are you mostly talking about that Amaram's amethysts (Amathysts?) are described as violet, not purple?

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Funny, the fact her power seemed Bondsmith-y is the reason I put her with the Windrunners in the first place^^

Heh, how differently we humans think. :)

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Interestingly, her gaining this new power coincide with other Adhesion users gaining new powers

Once you say it it sounds obvious, doesn't it.

I had not thought of this, I like it a lot!

I'm not sure where it all fits, but I'll get there. :D

You've just given me a puzzle piece to treasure.

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

While Dalinar is a proxy-Honor this days from the way the Aharietiam proclamation went I feel in the ancients day it was Jezrien's role.

Well, Jezrien seems to have always been the leader of the Heralds, at least in civic matters, Ishar seems more the religious/spiritual leader, the high priest to Jezrien's king, if you will.

Ishar seems to be the one who deals with the esoteric and arcane, while Jezrien is the leader of men.

This plus his mythologised role as Herald of kings makes him slot into the role of proclaiming victory better than Ishar, IMO.

And I can also see Ishar as being the one who most frequently spoke directly to Tanavast, though that is rather a guess along his apparent theme than anything concrete.

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

That seemed a bit contradictory with your latter statement of Gravitation being just Cheo's primary Surge instead of it's only Surge.

I don't think it's a contradiction, even here I phrase it as "mainly" being a product of Gravitation, though I'm not surprised if I come off as a little inconsistent, I think my line of reasoning in the original post was more hardline, one Unmade, one Surge.

I still stand by the idea of a primary Surge for both the Unmade and the Radiants, but letting the Unmade be more fluid probably lines them up better with the cousinspren, lets in some wiggle-room for theorising and brings it all better into line with Brandon saying that it's not quite one-to-one.

In this case I'd also still stand by my assesment that it's odd that an Unmade whose power is mainly a manifestation of Gravitation would have a byname that brings to mind the Surge of Division.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Basically I was saying that if physical Cohesion is "telling things where they should be" then spiritual Cohesion can easily be "telling physical laws how they Should be" which would technically not grant you any Surge but would make it look like you have them all.

Ohhh, that is a very cool concept, I don't know if it's true, or even likely, but I like it.

I would definitely not be dissapointed if this were the case.

Might also explain why Amaram seems to use the powers individually, it's possible he can only spoof one Surge at a time.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Implies once he consumed his host the host he assumed control of the body

I don't read it that way, to me it sounds like he can mimic voices and, usually, kills his hosts, but nothing there implies he puppets the body.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

If the gem couldn't trap Nergaoul the Fused wouldn't have tried to steal it, wouldn't they?

Well, no.

But I think it works as a trap because it's a (sufficiently large) perfect gemstone, not because it's a ruby.

Also, the way it's talked about suggests to me that it's the only perfect gem in the whole reserve, so if it being a ruby was important to being able to hold Nergaoul, Team Honor got exceedingly lucky.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

If you like tinfoil hat theories here's one about a possibility for lightnings to be a form of V-Tension

That is a really interesting take, yes.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

This has the advantage to keep V-Division open for Decayforms

Oh, I definitely believe that there's more than ten kinds of forms of power, so overlapping Surges is no problem to me.

Nightform and smokeform, IIRC, are both candidates for different expressions of Illumination.

"Predicting what will be" and "for hiding and slipping 'tween men" both sound plausibly like variants of Illumination.

I'm also wholly on board with decayform using an expression of Division, just one specialised to break things down while my guess is stormform messes with molecular bonds.

(It's also my hope that we'll see Skybreakers flinging lightning around, what would be more appropriately termed breaking the sky?)

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

in RoW Leshwi says her soul has been possesed by Odium for so long she can't bond a spren. Being a CS obviously isn't enough for that as Nale bonded one, so something else must be happening

I mean, her saying "my soul belongs too long to another" might be a more poetic way of saying "there's no way a spren would want someone like me, who served Odium for millennia," or "I've been on this path too long to be forgiven."

IIRC, she says this when Venli suggests leaving the conflict, not at Narak, though I might have misremembered.

That sounds more like vocalising the Sunk Cost fallacy than revealing cosmere mechanics to me.

 

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15 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

IIRC, she says this when Venli suggests leaving the conflict, not at Narak, though I might have misremembered.

It's when she's talking about Lightspren bonding

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4 hours ago, mathiau said:

How would a Spren in a Fabrial manipulate a Surge it can't use?

Oops, forgot to reply to this.

I do think it has to hold power over that Surge, in a way, being of the same stuff as a cultivationspren and all.

But I'm not sure it has enough power over it to use it independent of a power source.

Though I'll freely admit that these lifespren are the biggest conundrum here.

I do feel like there has to be a reason why we don't see greatshells bonded to windspren.

Perhaps the cousinspren are just as capable to command both their Surges, but naturally more inclined towards the primary? Proper stimulus could still cause them to express the other, as seen in our proto-fabrial.

I guess I feel like too much here is likely to be right, so I'm more inclined to think that one glaring anomaly means there's a gap in my knowledge, rather than my entire system being wrong.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It's when she's talking about Lightspren bonding

Oh, so it is.

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"My spren thought," Venli said. "She . . . has friends, who are willing to try again. With us."

"My soul is too long owned by someone else for that," Leshwi said.

-Rhythm of War, chapter 109

I still don't think Leshwi's dispensing cosmere wisdom here and the way it's written makes the actual meaning ambiguous.

I'm reading this as something like Venli saying these spren have given them a second chance, offered a fresh start and Leshwi countering that she's too far gone for that.

So I don't see this as an explanation of how there's a magic rules reason why she can't.

In fact, how could she know that, True spren have apparently not given singers the time of day for millennia at this point?

 

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3 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh, so it is.

-Rhythm of War, chapter 109

I still don't think Leshwi's dispensing cosmere wisdom here and the way it's written makes the actual meaning ambiguous.

I'm reading this as something like Venli saying these spren have given them a second chance, offered a fresh start and Leshwi countering that she's too far gone for that.

So I don't see this as an explanation of how there's a magic rules reason why she can't.

In fact, how could she know that, True spren have apparently not given singers the time of day for millennia at this point?

Humans require cracked souls in order to bond, the spren filling those cracks, I'm assuming that with Leshwi, Odium fills the cracks so completly that a spren couldn't enter.

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1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh, I definitely believe that there's more than ten kinds of forms of power,

Yep, there's a WoB on it.

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12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Humans require cracked souls in order to bond, the spren filling those cracks, I'm assuming that with Leshwi, Odium fills the cracks so completly that a spren couldn't enter.

Of course, my interpretation handily sidesteps that whole issue, as I think that a Fused is effectively a singer soul, modified to carry the correct markers for a specific form, as a way to exploit singer biology, the form coded for being what grants Surgebinding (this is likely a post facto modification, what with the whole "the Fused were dangerous even before they learned to command the Surges," though it might also mean that they didn't know how to use what they had at first.)

Beyond the discrete instance(s) of tampering by Odium, nothing's rushing into any cracks in the soul.

The Fused is basically a singer who's their own spren, in the standard singer sense, and seeing as having a form-spren in her gemheart in no way stopped Venli bonding Timbre, I don't think that's an issue.

Now, I think that it's possible a Fused could not have a Nahel spren in their gemheart, what with the whole "I cannot share my dwelling," but that's a wholly separate issue.

24 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yep, there's a WoB on it.

Oh, would you look at that, neat.

Thanks for finding confirmation.

It made sense, for instance the Song of Secrets would have a lot of stanzas of filler, but it's always nice to have concrete evidence.

 

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I just wanted to pop in and say that this is an excellent thread and very enjoyable to read. I made a post mapping the Unmade to orders recently and this one is a lot more thought out. I love the thought process of the "inverted" surges.

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1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

OK, that's a fair distinction.

He could still have offered something like "I will do what I can to restrain those sane enough to understand and punish those who step out of line." Which could have been as close of an accomodation with what Dalinar wanted as he could manage without finding himself in an impossible situation.

But he just shouts about it being impossible.

Fair

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Huh, you know, I'd gotten the impression it was the other way around. :lol:

I thought that was a Nalthian design flaw.

I used to think the same but then Zahel said the opposite

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Welp, yet another reason to re-read RoW then.

It's how I interpret the fact Heralds cut from the Oathpact die after a while

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"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

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Rayse is both petty and such a huge drama queen, honestly, I can see why he used to be friends with Hoid, they're both more operatic than a Dracula-era vampire.

They used to be friends?

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I think I can solve half of that conundrum for you:

-Oathbringer, chapter 16

I'd say that Dalinar gluing Kadash to the floor qualifies for Physical manifestation.

I also find it likely that that means the same is true of Tension, but I don't think we've seen a single unequivocal use of tension yet, so who the heck knows...

Ok, that's definitely physical physical Adhesion and not the thing Ishar did at the end of RoW. Thanks for clearing that up :)

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Ah, I couldn't remember who else was active in... whichever thread that was. 

To be fair I didn't remember you had been active there (wherever it was) until you said it here

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Ohh, interesting.

I could definitely see the Heralds having unrestricted* access to their given Surges, being actively able to utilise Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations of their powers much more readily than standard Radiants, either from being prototypes, from getting it through a direct subscription to Honor or from some combination thereof.

*Barring anything Honor chose to hang a Danger! sign on.

I was thinking he'd been only using the limited spiritual part of the Surge some Radiants have been shown to have (like for example Shallan with Spiritual Transformation) but Heralds having mostly unrestricted access to the Surges is very possible too.

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This WoB:

Might also imply that the Heralds could all have functioned at something like Radiant Bondsmith levels of power, which feels like it'd even the odds a little bit when they're just ten people.

Now, whether this means that they had access to stonger mostly Physical manifestations of power or Bondsmith-style "complete" Surges, who knows.

Nice catch

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As you might know (as that lovely stone in you picture is an ametrine, no?) amethyst comes in a variety of hues.

Yes it's an ametrine but I'm not sure how this is relevant, citrines are not amethysts and as far as spren are confirmed either they'd do nothing or work like heliodors

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Picture under spoiler

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I claim that most Rosharans wouldn't accept to call these amthysts

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Amethyst is also the only purple among the polestones, aka the gems any Rosharan would know the colour of, so what else would he ID a purple crystal as on sight?

He would identify it as "a purple crystal he did not recognize"

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Or are you mostly talking about that Amaram's amethysts (Amathysts?) are described as violet, not purple?

I went to check and

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Amaram slammed his foot down, and his Shardplate boot shattered, exploding outward in bits of molten metal. Beneath, his ripped sock revealed a foot overgrown with carapace and deep violet crystals.

So I think this falls into "we should ask Brandon" teritory

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Once you say it it sounds obvious, doesn't it.

I had not thought of this, I like it a lot!

I'm not sure where it all fits, but I'll get there. :D

You've just given me a puzzle piece to treasure.

To be fair I did not realise it was possible she was using new powers and not ancient powers she had never used in public until you pointed it out

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Well, Jezrien seems to have always been the leader of the Heralds, at least in civic matters, Ishar seems more the religious/spiritual leader, the high priest to Jezrien's king, if you will.

Ishar seems to be the one who deals with the esoteric and arcane, while Jezrien is the leader of men.

This plus his mythologised role as Herald of kings makes him slot into the role of proclaiming victory better than Ishar, IMO.

And I can also see Ishar as being the one who most frequently spoke directly to Tanavast, though that is rather a guess along his apparent theme than anything concrete.

Yes, and this is why I think the "Highprincess among the enemy forces" is more likely a Jezrien equivalent than an Ishar equivalent

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I don't think it's a contradiction, even here I phrase it as "mainly" being a product of Gravitation, though I'm not surprised if I come off as a little inconsistent, I think my line of reasoning in the original post was more hardline, one Unmade, one Surge.

I still stand by the idea of a primary Surge for both the Unmade and the Radiants, but letting the Unmade be more fluid probably lines them up better with the cousinspren, lets in some wiggle-room for theorising and brings it all better into line with Brandon saying that it's not quite one-to-one.

In this case I'd also still stand by my assesment that it's odd that an Unmade whose power is mainly a manifestation of Gravitation would have a byname that brings to mind the Surge of Division.

Ok, I think I get you know.

I think Division (and the hypothetical Division-Gravitation hybrids) will be flashy enough that even if Gravitation is Che's main Surge people would still remember Division more vividly (and it's possible that it would annoy her greatly)

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I don't read it that way, to me it sounds like he can mimic voices and, usually, kills his hosts, but nothing there implies he puppets the body.

Yes it's a possibility too

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Well, no.

But I think it works as a trap because it's a (sufficiently large) perfect gemstone, not because it's a ruby.

It's certainly possible, though Navani saying

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"First, you must get a spren to approach.

The type of gemstone is relevant; some spren are naturally more intrigued by certain gemstones. In addition, it is essential to calm the spren with something it knows and loves. A good fire for a flamespren, for example, is a must."

Implies sprens have a favorite, and I think Odium would have put Yelig in his favourite gemstone

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Also, the way it's talked about suggests to me that it's the only perfect gem in the whole reserve, so if it being a ruby was important to being able to hold Nergaoul, Team Honor got exceedingly lucky.

It almost certainly was the only perfect gem, but honestly the probably of having a perfect gem on the place Odium intended to have Dalinar become his champion is low enough that dividing it by ten doesn't make it that much less believable.

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That is a really interesting take, yes.
Oh, I definitely believe that there's more than ten kinds of forms of power, so overlapping Surges is no problem to me.

Nightform and smokeform, IIRC, are both candidates for different expressions of Illumination.

"Predicting what will be" and "for hiding and slipping 'tween men" both sound plausibly like variants of Illumination.

I'll argue that Nightform is mostly a candidate of S-Illumination from the fact V-Illumination doesn't allows Renarin to make disgises and that it's possible for Smokeform to be V-Progression, for the same reason you put Moelach as the Progression Unmande.

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I'm also wholly on board with decayform using an expression of Division, just one specialised to break things down while my guess is stormform messes with molecular bonds.

It could also be L-Division

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(It's also my hope that we'll see Skybreakers flinging lightning around, what would be more appropriately termed breaking the sky?)

Oh I would definitely want to see that

24 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Though I'll freely admit that these lifespren are the biggest conundrum here.

Yeah everything about Edgedancers and Truthwatchers is weird.

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I do feel like there has to be a reason why we don't see greatshells bonded to windspren.

Note that there's a spren called "gravitationspren" that's attracted to heavy object and Skybreakers and can be bounded by Listeners to enter workform. It's very unlikely theses are Mandras.

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

Humans require cracked souls in order to bond, the spren filling those cracks, I'm assuming that with Leshwi, Odium fills the cracks so completly that a spren couldn't enter.

It's not actually necessary, it just makes thing easier. For example The Lopen never broke.

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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

It's not actually necessary, it just makes thing easier. For example The Lopen never broke.

Never broke, and has no cracks in his soul are two different statements

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On 9/6/2021 at 2:12 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Truthwatcher/Surge of Progression

Unmade: Moelach

Moelach's power to grant access to glimpses of the future might be a manifestation of the Surge of Progression, a Cognitive/Spiritual application of Growth, granting further access to the Spiritual at the Realmatic transition of death. Thematically Moelach grants access to looking at what can or will be, instead of the present truth of what is.

That matches the power set of corrupted Truthwatchers too. Makes me wonder, if Sja-Anat enlightened an ashspren, would its Dustbringer be able to enflame emotions? Etcetera for the rest of the orders. 

Also it seems you're somehow my biggest fan despite my inactivity on the forums for the last few years? :P 

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31 minutes ago, Ironeyes said:

That matches the power set of corrupted Truthwatchers too. Makes me wonder, if Sja-Anat enlightened an ashspren, would its Dustbringer be able to enflame emotions? Etcetera for the rest of the orders. 

Also it seems you're somehow my biggest fan despite my inactivity on the forums for the last few years? :P 

Probably not all the emotion like a Rioter would but they probably'd be able to do something similar to what Nergaoul did, probably with some temporal side effects.

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2 hours ago, Ironeyes said:

would its Dustbringer be able to enflame emotions?

Personally I don't think so, because their power isn't just "fire", it's Division (and Abrasion), and fire is an effect it can cause, so I don't think its effect would quite line up with that. I don't think any of the orders will have something that directly lines up with Soothing or Rioting, but I could see certain Surges allowing manipulation of certain emotions that align with their category. 

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33 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Personally I don't think so, because their power isn't just "fire", it's Division (and Abrasion), and fire is an effect it can cause, so I don't think its effect would quite line up with that. I don't think any of the orders will have something that directly lines up with Soothing or Rioting, but I could see certain Surges allowing manipulation of certain emotions that align with their category. 

That isn't really what I meant. What I was trying to say is that if Inquisitor #5 is right, the powers of each unmade could hint at what its associated KR order would do if Sja-Anat touched their spren. An enlightened Dustbringer would therefore get something similar to Nergaoul--ie cause an emotional reaction like the Thrill. Perhaps I should have used a different word than "enflame" there. 

Edited by Ironeyes
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1 hour ago, Ironeyes said:

That isn't really what I meant. What I was trying to say is that if Inquisitor #5 is right, the powers of each unmade could hint at what its associated KR order would do if Sja-Anat touched their spren. An enlightened Dustbringer would therefore get something similar to Nergaoul--ie cause an emotional reaction like the Thrill. Perhaps I should have used a different word than "enflame" there. 

Ah, I didn't read the context closely enough. In that case, could totally be.

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21 hours ago, mathiau said:

I used to think the same but then Zahel said the opposite

Oh yeah, I double checked this and he seems to supply three distinct categories.

Weak: kill the body a second time and the soul's toast, presumably also needing regular infusions of Investiture. Returned seem to go here.

Middle: needs regular infusions of Investiture, but will persist if body's killed. Heralds possibly go here.

Strong: will persist if re-killed and can't effectively be starved of Investiture. Zahel seems to peg the Fused as going here.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

It's how I interpret the fact Heralds cut from the Oathpact die after a while

Hmm, that's not the impression I got, but it seems reasonable.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

They used to be friends?

Hmm, this might just have been an idea that wormed its way in from somewhere but that's never actually been confirmed as true.

I'm quite certain I saw this claim being made somewhere at some point, but it might have been someone's unsourced headcanon or something.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

Ok, that's definitely physical physical Adhesion and not the thing Ishar did at the end of RoW. Thanks for clearing that up :)

Happy to help. :)

I was convinced that Dalinar did something Adhesion-y when he was wrestling, and thankfully I wasn't far off.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

I was thinking he'd been only using the limited spiritual part of the Surge some Radiants have been shown to have (like for example Shallan with Spiritual Transformation) but Heralds having mostly unrestricted access to the Surges is very possible too.

Yep, fair fair.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

Nice catch

Thanks :)

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yes it's an ametrine but I'm not sure how this is relevant

I mostly meant to imply that you might be knowledgable about these forms of quartz.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

citrines are not amethysts and as far as spren are confirmed either they'd do nothing or work like heliodors

Oh, I'm totally on board with this.

(I even spent some time convinved there was a WoB that Rosharan heliodors were actually citrine, alas no such WoB seemed to exist when I actually brought up this "fact" to someone.)

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

I claim that most Rosharans wouldn't accept to call these amthysts

Hmm, I'm not sure it's possible to be quite as hardline here as about diamonds.

The Rosharan definition of diamond is simple to work with, if it's not clear, it's not a diamond. You can easily tell that someting's not clear on sight.

I'm not sure how able people would be to easily see that that one's an amethyst, because it's within these shades of purple, while this one's just a worthless not-an-amethyst.

There's also the fact that, if Roshar amethyst is the same as Earth amethyst (i.e. the best quartz), sunlight fades the crystal. So I think that a fairly wide range of hues have to be permissable, podsibly barring the really deep ones that are edging towards black and probably excluding anything borderline clear.

22 hours ago, mathiau said:

He would identify it as "a purple crystal he did not recognize"

I'll grant the possibility, though I'm not sure how easy it'd be to judge at a glance. 

Things like crystal shape might of course bias you one way or another as well.

22 hours ago, mathiau said:

So I think this falls into "we should ask Brandon" teritory

How dare you be so reasonable about it?! :P

Yeah, I agree that that's probably the best course of action, I don't think we can come much closer on textual evidence alone.

22 hours ago, mathiau said:

To be fair I did not realise it was possible she was using new powers and not ancient powers she had never used in public until you pointed it out

And is that not the beauty of this kind of exchange? :D

22 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yes, and this is why I think the "Highprincess among the enemy forces" is more likely a Jezrien equivalent than an Ishar equivalent

Oh!

I see you now.

Yes, that makes sense. Adding to that that she seems to have developed new abilities concurrently with other wielders of Adhesion, it seems very likely that she goes in the Windrunner spot.

This also handily alleviates needing to find a separate reason for her new abilities.

I've seen the suggestion that she used a Dawnshard, but find that unlikely due to their supposed scarcity.

If she simply got access to more applications of her existing power, just as Melishi did, there's no need for a separate mechanism to explain it.

I think we've found something here! :D

22 hours ago, mathiau said:

I think Division (and the hypothetical Division-Gravitation hybrids) will be flashy enough that even if Gravitation is Che's main Surge people would still remember Division more vividly

To echo your same sentiment, I think I get you now.

Yeah, I could see that being the case, Gravitation doesn't seem to have much of a visual flaire.

22 hours ago, mathiau said:

and it's possible that it would annoy her greatly

The idea that one of the Unmade is fighting humanity mostly because they got her nature wrong is quite amusing. :P

22 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yes it's a possibility too

Just to add a bit on Yelig-nar, Rayse's treatment of Amaram implies that the whole Yelig-nar-ification is survivable and even possible to live with long-term.

At this point Amaram has asked Rayse if he'll get to kill Dalinar one day, and Rayse has said that he'll grant that if he doesn't have Dalinar kill Amaram first.

Assuming Rayse is being coherent and not just spouting villain dialogue, it sounds like he wants Amaram as a pawn, not that he wants Amaram dead.

Amaram has also delivered Nightblood's sheath and Rayse has told one of the Fused to provide Amaram the housing for Yelig-nar. Then he tells Amaram to swallow it and that doing so will give him the power he was promised, but cautions him to try to control the one that follows and that queen Aesudan failed to do so.

Now, I don't think Rayse is terribly smart, but I don't think he's throw-away-a-full-Shardbearer-for-no-reason stupid. Rayse isn't even anticipating a proper battle, Rayse is putting on a show, delivering a crushing victory to the singers to embolden them, subverting his main enemy to lead them.

Why would he throw away a tool that not only cuts, but cuts extremely well, on a theatrical victory?

I get the feeling that controling Yelig-nar is definitely possible. Not necessarily that Amaram could do it, possibly if he'd been given a less stressful environment to adjust in, but definitely that it can be done.

23 hours ago, mathiau said:

Implies sprens have a favorite, and I think Odium would have put Yelig in his favourite gemstone

Oh, I definitely agree that they have favourites.

I suppose we'll have to ask Brandon about how possible it is to put a spren in a gem they don't like.

I definitely think you could put any spren in any polestone, but that it'd be more or less difficult depending on the spren and gem.

23 hours ago, mathiau said:

It almost certainly was the only perfect gem, but honestly the probably of having a perfect gem on the place Odium intended to have Dalinar become his champion is low enough that dividing it by ten doesn't make it that much less believable.

Fair

23 hours ago, mathiau said:

I'll argue that Nightform is mostly a candidate of S-Illumination from the fact V-Illumination doesn't allows Renarin to make disgises and that it's possible for Smokeform to be V-Progression, for the same reason you put Moelach as the Progression Unmande.

think you got those backwards, IIRC, nightform is said to see the future.

Otherwise, yes, that makes sense.

I seem to be a bit stuck in the idea that Renarin's future sight is a product of Illumination (or his Resonance), being consistent with my own theorising be darned.

This observation has also had the happy coincidence of providing the first semi-solid case I've seen for Renarin's powers being entirely Voidish in nature. As someone who's disliked the idea of 50/50 Renarin since the Oathbringer days this makes me very happy. 

It makes more sense to me that Enlightening a spren would change how all powers manifest, rather than just some, just like tinting a lens a certain colour makes the entire image take on that colour.

It also makes me think that I've put too much emphasis on the Realm-transgressing moment of death for how Moelach's power works.

The base spark of Fortune should always be present, it might just be that it can be artificially made to have a greater effect at the already trancendent moment of death and/or that Moelach can more easily touch a being in that moment.

On 2021-09-09 at 4:23 PM, mathiau said:

It could also be L-Division

As in Cultivation derived?

On 2021-09-09 at 4:23 PM, mathiau said:

Yeah everything about Edgedancers and Truthwatchers is weird.

Hear! Hear!

On 2021-09-09 at 4:23 PM, mathiau said:

Note that there's a spren called "gravitationspren" that's attracted to heavy object and Skybreakers and can be bounded by Listeners to enter workform.

That is true, additionally there's also gravityspren, which we don't know if it's synonymous with either gravitationspren or luckspren.

I hadn't caught that they like Skybreakers.

On 2021-09-09 at 4:23 PM, mathiau said:

It's very unlikely theses are Mandras.

Yeah, it feels like those should grant "skyform," like a shanay-im without the baggage, but then, what spren makes what form seems rather arbitrary at times.

On 2021-09-09 at 5:44 PM, Frustration said:

Never broke, and has no cracks in his soul are two different statements

That is true and it lets me bring up a point about the singers: they are biologically made to bond spren, that might give them something of an advantage. Or it might be entirely meaningless.

23 hours ago, Ironeyes said:

That matches the power set of corrupted Truthwatchers too. Makes me wonder, if Sja-Anat enlightened an ashspren, would its Dustbringer be able to enflame emotions? Etcetera for the rest of the orders. 

 

22 hours ago, mathiau said:

Probably not all the emotion like a Rioter would but they probably'd be able to do something similar to what Nergaoul did, probably with some temporal side effects.

Oh, you wonderful people! This is absolutely delightful!

I didn't see what was hiding in my own theory.

As someone who's been personally pro-Sja-anat since Oathbringer you've managed to find even more reason for me to want to see the rest of the orders of "Knights Enlightened."

20 hours ago, Ironeyes said:

What I was trying to say is that if Inquisitor #5 is right, the powers of each unmade could hint at what its associated KR order would do if Sja-Anat touched their spren.

This is such a delicious catch, this means I can start speculating with something solid to go on. Solid in that it's at least two assumptions deep, but the first assumption is based on something we know.

I'll take it!

On 2021-09-09 at 2:37 PM, Benkinsky said:

I just wanted to pop in and say that this is an excellent thread and very enjoyable to read. I made a post mapping the Unmade to orders recently and this one is a lot more thought out. I love the thought process of the "inverted" surges.

Aww, thanks for the kind words!

Your thread is in fact what got me on the Unmade/Radiant matching bandwagon, so if you hadn't started that neither of us would be here.

So thank you for that, this entire thread and all the amazing interactions in it is partially to your credit. 

23 hours ago, Ironeyes said:

Also it seems you're somehow my biggest fan despite my inactivity on the forums for the last few years? :P 

Apparently so! :lol:

 

 

¤_¤

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3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh yeah, I double checked this and he seems to supply three distinct categories.

Weak: kill the body a second time and the soul's toast, presumably also needing regular infusions of Investiture. Returned seem to go here.

Middle: needs regular infusions of Investiture, but will persist if body's killed. Heralds possibly go here.

Strong: will persist if re-killed and can't effectively be starved of Investiture. Zahel seems to peg the Fused as going here.

Yes. My theory is that the Strong category is actually made up of CSs who have an hidden link to their Shard supplying them investiture, like we know used to exist between Honour and the Heralds. The biggest clue of that comes from Secret History

Spoiler

Today he intended to finally crack a puzzle. He seized the misted remains of the old cookfire. Immediately he gained a vision of them in the real world—but he pushed through that, feeling something beyond.

Not just images, but sensations. Almost emotions. Cold wood that somehow remembered warmth. This fire was dead in the real world, but it wished it could burn again.

It was a strange sensation, realizing that logs could have wishes. This flame had burned for years, feeding the families of many skaa. Countless generations had sat before this pit in the floor. They’d kept the fire burning almost perpetually. Laughing, savoring their brief moments of joy.

The fire had given them that. It longed to do so again. Unfortunately, the people had left. Kelsier was finding more and more villages abandoned these days. Ashfalls went on longer than usual, and Kelsier had felt occasional trembling in the ground, even in this Realm. Earthquakes.

He could give this fire something. Burn again, he told it. Be warm again.

It couldn’t happen in the Physical Realm, but all things there could manifest here. The fire wasn’t actually alive, but to the people who had once lived here, it had been almost so. A familiar, warm friend.

Burn …

Light burst from his fingers, pouring out of his hands, a flame appearing there. Kelsier dropped it quickly, stepping back, grinning at the crackling blaze. It looked very much like the fire that Nazh and Khriss had carried with them; the logs themselves had appeared on this side, with dancing flames.

No matter how you twist it there's definitely investiture transferred from the MC to the fire, and that investiture has to come from somewhere.

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I mostly meant to imply that you might be knowledgable about these forms of quartz.

Oh. Well I know one or two things but not much. Mostly what's written on Wikipedia.

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Oh, I'm totally on board with this.

(I even spent some time convinved there was a WoB that Rosharan heliodors were actually citrine, alas no such WoB seemed to exist when I actually brought up this "fact" to someone.)

I doubt Brandon would have called that stone heliodor if all of them where citrines but it's very possible some animals grow citrines instead of heliodors.

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Hmm, I'm not sure it's possible to be quite as hardline here as about diamonds.

The Rosharan definition of diamond is simple to work with, if it's not clear, it's not a diamond. You can easily tell that someting's not clear on sight.

I'm not sure how able people would be to easily see that that one's an amethyst, because it's within these shades of purple, while this one's just a worthless not-an-amethyst.

That's possible

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There's also the fact that, if Roshar amethyst is the same as Earth amethyst (i.e. the best quartz), sunlight fades the crystal. So I think that a fairly wide range of hues have to be permissable, podsibly barring the really deep ones that are edging towards black and probably excluding anything borderline clear.

Wait it does?

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amethyst (i.e. the best quartz)

I must respectfully disagree sir, amethysts are second to ametrines.

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Things like crystal shape might of course bias you one way or another as well.

Yeah there's no way Kal would be able to do that^^

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How dare you be so reasonable about it?! :P

:P

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I've seen the suggestion that she used a Dawnshard, but find that unlikely due to their supposed scarcity.

To be fair it's been heavily implied there had been a Dawnshard other than Change on Roshar at some point of it's history (the Dawnshard known to bind mortal and voidish creatures alike from the Poem if Ista). But I don't like that theory either (especially the extension were the Dawnshard end up trapped in BaM's jewel), I think like spren whould make bad Dawnvessels like they make bad Shardvessels.

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To echo your same sentiment, I think I get you now.

Yeah, I could see that being the case, Gravitation doesn't seem to have much of a visual flaire.

Not when you're a spren and therefore half expected to be able to fly anyway and you don't have reverse lashings (seriously, if BaM had access to reverse lashings that must have been quite a sight)

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The idea that one of the Unmade is fighting humanity mostly because they got her nature wrong is quite amusing. :P

I know right :P

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Just to add a bit on Yelig-nar, Rayse's treatment of Amaram implies that the whole Yelig-nar-ification is survivable and even possible to live with long-term.

At this point Amaram has asked Rayse if he'll get to kill Dalinar one day, and Rayse has said that he'll grant that if he doesn't have Dalinar kill Amaram first.

Assuming Rayse is being coherent and not just spouting villain dialogue, it sounds like he wants Amaram as a pawn, not that he wants Amaram dead.

Amaram has also delivered Nightblood's sheath and Rayse has told one of the Fused to provide Amaram the housing for Yelig-nar. Then he tells Amaram to swallow it and that doing so will give him the power he was promised, but cautions him to try to control the one that follows and that queen Aesudan failed to do so.

Now, I don't think Rayse is terribly smart, but I don't think he's throw-away-a-full-Shardbearer-for-no-reason stupid. Rayse isn't even anticipating a proper battle, Rayse is putting on a show, delivering a crushing victory to the singers to embolden them, subverting his main enemy to lead them.

Why would he throw away a tool that not only cuts, but cuts extremely well, on a theatrical victory?

I get the feeling that controling Yelig-nar is definitely possible. Not necessarily that Amaram could do it, possibly if he'd been given a less stressful environment to adjust in, but definitely that it can be done.

Oh it's definitely possible to avoid getting consumed by him. The question is if he consumes you can he still move or does the ensemble becomes a crumbling mass of amethyst?

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Oh, I definitely agree that they have favourites.

I suppose we'll have to ask Brandon about how possible it is to put a spren in a gem they don't like.

I definitely think you could put any spren in any polestone, but that it'd be more or less difficult depending on the spren and gem.

That's possible. I suspect you'd have a hard time pulling a windspren inside a topaz or a flamespren inside a garnet but it could still be possible.

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think you got those backwards, IIRC, nightform is said to see the future.

I did yes.

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I seem to be a bit stuck in the idea that Renarin's future sight is a product of Illumination (or his Resonance), being consistent with my own theorising be darned.

It's also very possible Renarin's future sight is an Hybrid Surge (which is not the same as a Resonance) which is something Meolach would have according to your theory. Now could Odium manage to only give an Hybrid Surge without giving all of either of it's component? I think yes.

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This observation has also had the happy coincidence of providing the first semi-solid case I've seen for Renarin's powers being entirely Voidish in nature. As someone who's disliked the idea of 50/50 Renarin since the Oathbringer days this makes me very happy. 

I'm slightly offended by you calling the perfected-self vision a quarter-solid argument.

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It also makes me think that I've put too much emphasis on the Realm-transgressing moment of death for how Moelach's power works.

The base spark of Fortune should always be present, it might just be that it can be artificially made to have a greater effect at the already trancendent moment of death and/or that Moelach can more easily touch a being in that moment.

Warbreaker

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Know this look a lot like some of the Iridescent Tones' teaching

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As in Cultivation derived?

Yes. At some point we stared calling the expression of each Surge in Cultivation's magic system "Lifes"

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That is true, additionally there's also gravityspren, which we don't know if it's synonymous with either gravitationspren or luckspren.

I hadn't caught that they like Skybreakers.

I don't remember if Szeth said gravityspren or gravitationspren (these two are probably the same) but he's only person who ever saw one onscreen. It's technically possible they're actually attracted to Gravitation and Kel just did not notice them among the hundreds of windsprens but I really feel like this is Brandon foreshadowing Skybreakers' platespen.

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Yeah, it feels like those should grant "skyform," like a shanay-im without the baggage

Only one Mandra would not be able to lift a Singer (you need multiple just for Chri-Chri, and she has wings) but it'd definitely make them jump easier. Then you remember Nibleform exists and it uses windsprens.

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but then, what spren makes what form seems rather arbitrary at times.

I don't fully agree, of the five we know three makes perfect sense (lifesprens-mateform, windsprens-nimbleform, creationspren-artform) and the other two are not insane (gravitation helps you bear the burdens and painsprens increase your resistance to pain). But then again horses bound musicsprens.

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14 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Aww, thanks for the kind words!

Your thread is in fact what got me on the Unmade/Radiant matching bandwagon, so if you hadn't started that neither of us would be here.

So thank you for that, this entire thread and all the amazing interactions in it is partially to your credit. 

Apparently so! :lol:

why thank you! How lovely! I have a train ride today, I'm looking forward to getting up to date on the discussions here!

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8 hours ago, mathiau said:

My theory is that the Strong category is actually made up of CSs who have an hidden link to their Shard supplying them investiture, like we know used to exist between Honour and the Heralds.

That seems very plausible, especially with Zahel's description of the Fused being Connected to and feeding off Odium.

I do want to point out that the link between Honor and the Heralds seems to still be there in some form. We see Nale burst alight at the end of Edgedancer, after all, and he doesn't seem to ever pull light out of gems around him.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

No matter how you twist it there's definitely investiture transferred from the MC to the fire, and that investiture has to come from somewhere.

Yes, I can see no other thing that could be.

Nice catch.

It also makes a lot of sense, given what Shard's involved, that we'd get a CS that automatically self-sustains.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Oh. Well I know one or two things but not much. Mostly what's written on Wikipedia.

Fair fair

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

I doubt Brandon would have called that stone heliodor if all of them where citrines but it's very possible some animals grow citrines instead of heliodors.

Yeah, I must have seen a theory about it or gotten mixed up on a WoB or something, I had gotten into my head that it was a similar situation to words like chicken and mink, that they say heliodor when it's actually citrine.

And of course I had no reason to doubt this, because I knew I'd seen a WoB about it, one that just turned out to not exist once I wanted to prove it to someone.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

That's possible

And it's possible I'm entirely off base. Hopefully someone will ask Brandon for clarification, just like we have gotten for diamonds.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Wait it does?

Yep, UV fades amethysts, so it's a bad idea to keep them in direct sunlight.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

I must respectfully disagree sir, amethysts are second to ametrines.

Oh, if only I could have forseen this development! :P

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yeah there's no way Kal would be able to do that^^

I might have phrased that badly, I did mean to say how the crystal looks to the naked eye, not the crystal structure.

You have however given me the image of Kaladin constantly having a jewellers' loupe on him at all times. :P

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

To be fair it's been heavily implied there had been a Dawnshard other than Change on Roshar at some point of it's history (the Dawnshard known to bind mortal and voidish creatures alike from the Poem if Ista).

Oh, I don't dispute that.

Tanavast also talks about plural Dawnshards in one of the visions, in the context of humanity's fight against the Voidbringers, so at least two of four have to have been present on Roshar within the time there's been humans there.

However, even if all four ended up there, it's still four things somewhere on all Roshar, and while storytelling contrivances are fine, unlikely things happen after all, doing it too much just makes it come off as contrived and unsatisfying.

Add to that that we've already had one character who happened to find a Dawnshard and reavealing that another character totally did the same thing could easily come across as a retread of the same story.

(I also want to know which absolute dingus thought that keeping any Dawnshard on Roshar, the place with Investiture leaking out of every crack, was a good idea.)

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

But I don't like that theory either (especially the extension were the Dawnshard end up trapped in BaM's jewel), I think like spren whould make bad Dawnvessels like they make bad Shardvessels.

That makes sense, I could even see the Ummade in particular being even worse Vessels, if Sja-anat's "half-existence" is in any way indicative of the Unmade as a whole.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Not when you're a spren and therefore half expected to be able to fly anyway and you don't have reverse lashings

Oh, that's fair, I hadn't even considered the whole "lots of spren float" thing, I was mostly thinking about how a lashing isn't really visually impressive beyond the object glowing and falling in the wrong direction. 

Compare something like setting the ground on fire, growing plants in seconds, making things suddenly be other things and large-scale Lightweaving, for instance.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

seriously, if BaM had access to reverse lashings that must have been quite a sight

Everything goes HERE now!

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Oh it's definitely possible to avoid getting consumed by him. The question is if he consumes you can he still move or does the ensemble becomes a crumbling mass of amethyst?

Oh yeah, this was mostly an aside from me realising that if Yelig-nar is a (quick) death-sentence having Amaram bond him there makes no sense, so I shoehorned it in.

Yeah, since we've not actually seen the aftermath of the full process (how dare Rock save Kaladin's life and get in the way of science! :P) we don't really know.

I don't find the idea that Yelig-nar can temporarily pilot the resultant amethyst puppet entirely without merit, though he'd probably be quite limited when doing so, possibly determined by how recently the host died and how valid any residual Connection was.

Like, I feel like if he could just be an amethyst Terminator, he'd be an amethyst Terminator, so presumably a host is needed for peak performance in some way.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

That's possible. I suspect you'd have a hard time pulling a windspren inside a topaz or a flamespren inside a garnet but it could still be possible.

Yeah, I'm not saying that it'd be easy, but in the case of Nergaoul it also involves Dalinar "I am a Highstorm that walks like a man" Kholin and his Bondsmith shenanigans.

If there's anything that could get a spren into a mismatched gemstone it's Bondsmith shenanigans, IMO. Add to that that Dalinar seemingly is to Nergaoul as a raging fire is to flamespren and I don't find it unlikely at all that it could have been stuck in a non-optimal gem.

 

Hmm, windspren should naturally go in sapphire and garnet, because flamespren go in ruby and amethyst.

 

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

It's also very possible Renarin's future sight is an Hybrid Surge

Entirely fair

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Now could Odium manage to only give an Hybrid Surge without giving all of either of it's component?

I suppose so. Seems finicky, but not impossible.

I'd say it comes down to how exactly the hybrid abilities work, but I can see it being possible.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

I'm slightly offended by you calling the perfected-self vision a quarter-solid argument.

OK, that's fair. I've also picked up on that, but it's inconclusive as we barely get to see any other healing from the perspective of the person being healed.

I've always felt that Renarin's Surges were "twisted" in a more Spiritual direction.

In any case I now have a sounder foundation to prop up my beliefs about Enlightened spren and the people who bond them, which is great.

(Also, in the moment I was not thinking about how Adolin gets to see perfect!Adolin when healed, so I might have gotten ahead of myself.)

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Know this look a lot like some of the Iridescent Tones' teaching

Yep, that tracks. Neato.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yes. At some point we stared calling the expression of each Surge in Cultivation's magic system "Lifes"

Right, I just wanted to be sure I was understanding you.

I find that somewhat doubtful, if a third set of Surge expressions was known Khriss wouldn't need to speculate in the Roshar essay.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't remember if Szeth said gravityspren or gravitationspren (these two are probably the same) but he's only person who ever saw one onscreen.

Ah

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

these two are probably the same

Probably

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

It's technically possible they're actually attracted to Gravitation and Kel just did not notice them among the hundreds of windsprens but I really feel like this is Brandon foreshadowing Skybreakers' platespen.

My one problem here is that the official Herald art seems to have the corresponding Plate/cousinspren in it and Nale is surrounded by blue somethings, which at least matches the colour of luckspren, even if there's only a single one that's arrowhead shaped and not just a glob.

I can't remember if Szeth gives a description of the spren he sees, so is it possible that it's simply an east/west terminology difference?

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

Only one Mandra would not be able to lift a Singer (you need multiple just for Chri-Chri, and she has wings) but it'd definitely make them jump easier.

Oh, I was more so suggesting that it'd grant a form able to do so, but given your example it probably wouldn't. Forms with Surgebinding might be a thing of True spren, or it's something to do with how the Dawnsingers were apparently not allowed (all) Surges, going by the Eila Stele.

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't fully agree, of the five we know three makes perfect sense (lifesprens-mateform, windsprens-nimbleform, creationspren-artform) and the other two are not insane (gravitation helps you bear the burdens and painsprens increase your resistance to pain).

Oh, yeah, they aren't totally bonkers, especially once you start getting metaphorical. But as you yourself point out, why musicspren?

So we can tell that there's not always gonna be a clear relation between spren type and what the Rosharan fauna get out of it.

Maybe the singers are a bit more consistent than I thought though, interesting.

46 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

I have a train ride today, I'm looking forward to getting up to date on the discussions here!

Hope you enjoy. :)

 

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2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I do want to point out that the link between Honor and the Heralds seems to still be there in some form. We see Nale burst alight at the end of Edgedancer, after all, and he doesn't seem to ever pull light out of gems around him.

Do you mean that moment?

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Darkness dropped his sphere and moved with sudden, unexpected speed, bursting afire with Stormlight.

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It also makes a lot of sense, given what Shard's involved, that we'd get a CS that automatically self-sustains.

Also from the method used he's probably among the strongest non-sliver CSs

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Oh, if only I could have forseen this development! :P

:P

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I might have phrased that badly, I did mean to say how the crystal looks to the naked eye, not the crystal structure.

That's what I had understood

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You have however given me the image of Kaladin constantly having a jewellers' loupe on him at all times. :P

This made me think of that for some reason

Spoiler

rsz_batgarden.png

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(I also want to know which absolute dingus thought that keeping any Dawnshard on Roshar, the place with Investiture leaking out of every crack, was a good idea.)

I'm betting on Cultivation

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Oh yeah, this was mostly an aside from me realising that if Yelig-nar is a (quick) death-sentence having Amaram bond him there makes no sense, so I shoehorned it in.

Yeah, since we've not actually seen the aftermath of the full process (how dare Rock save Kaladin's life and get in the way of science! :P) we don't really know.

I don't find the idea that Yelig-nar can temporarily pilot the resultant amethyst puppet entirely without merit, though he'd probably be quite limited when doing so, possibly determined by how recently the host died and how valid any residual Connection was.

Like, I feel like if he could just be an amethyst Terminator, he'd be an amethyst Terminator, so presumably a host is needed for peak performance in some way.

Yes, we don't have any reason to believe Aesudan was killed between the Kholinar battle and the Thaylen field battle, do we?

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Yeah, I'm not saying that it'd be easy, but in the case of Nergaoul it also involves Dalinar "I am a Highstorm that walks like a man" Kholin and his Bondsmith shenanigans.

If there's anything that could get a spren into a mismatched gemstone it's Bondsmith shenanigans, IMO. Add to that that Dalinar seemingly is to Nergaoul as a raging fire is to flamespren and I don't find it unlikely at all that it could have been stuck in a non-optimal gem.

Fair point

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Hmm, windspren should naturally go in sapphire and garnet, because flamespren go in ruby and amethyst.

I don't follow

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I find that somewhat doubtful, if a third set of Surge expressions was known Khriss wouldn't need to speculate in the Roshar essay.

I don't see the issue, Khriss wouldn't know much about the forms of power, would she? (was the essay even written before the Everstorm?)

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My one problem here is that the official Herald art seems to have the corresponding Plate/cousinspren in it 

Except Pailiah who has the Elsecaller's platespren and Shalash who has nothing

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and Nale is surrounded by blue somethings, which at least matches the colour of luckspren, even if there's only a single one that's arrowhead shaped and not just a glob.

They look as much as lucksprens as Taln's orange dots look like painsprens (granted, painspren is our best guess guess at Stoneward's platespren but it's quite flimsy)

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I can't remember if Szeth gives a description of the spren he sees, so is it possible that it's simply an east/west terminology difference?

He did not

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Oh, I was more so suggesting that it'd grant a form able to do so, but given your example it probably wouldn't. Forms with Surgebinding might be a thing of True spren, or it's something to do with how the Dawnsingers were apparently not allowed (all) Surges, going by the Eila Stele.

Honestly I think Dawnsingers used the sprenless surgebinding Brandon mentioned once, this type of Surgebinding is supposed to be very dangerous, especially with Transformation.

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Oh, yeah, they aren't totally bonkers, especially once you start getting metaphorical. But as you yourself point out, why musicspren?

Possibly because Musicsprens aren't actually about music and Rosharan just made an incorrect assumption

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20 hours ago, mathiau said:

Do you mean that moment?

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Darkness dropped his sphere and moved with sudden, unexpected speed, bursting afire with Stormlight.

I was moreso thinking of the moment a bit later, after Lift's hugged him and he's realised he's failed, when he just zooms off into the sky with no visible power source.

To me the quoted section also doesn't read as actually saying he took in the Light in the sphere. I'd also think that even a broam couldn't hold enough light to be consistent with the description of "bursting afire."

Mind, I don't think your idea is wrong, I just think that the Heralds still have some direct Connection to Honor's power. This Connection is presumably cut by the whole trapping process, leading to the decomposition of the CS.

20 hours ago, mathiau said:

Also from the method used he's probably among the strongest non-sliver CSs

That I can definitely believe.

20 hours ago, mathiau said:

That's what I had understood

Ah, I misunderstood then.

20 hours ago, mathiau said:

I'm betting on Cultivation

With all the shade I've been throwing on Rayse in this thread I guess it's only fair to call out Koravari as well.

I would not have seen me calling her an absolute dingus a few days ago. :P

Then again, she seems to have a habit of engaging in stupidly high-stakes gambling.

20 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yes, we don't have any reason to believe Aesudan was killed between the Kholinar battle and the Thaylen field battle, do we?

From Rayse warning Amaram that she tried to do the Yelig-nar thing but failed, it would seem she had a fatal case of Yelig-nar-itis. 

Rayse doesn't have much reason to lie about it to the present company, so I think we can conclude she wasn't killed by something else.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't follow

Right, conjoiners are typically made with rubies, reversers are typically made with amethysts (and I know this isn't a rule, just practice, which annoys me a lot). 

On the Radiant diagram each order is placed opposite another, Truthwatcher-Bondsmith, Windrunner-Lightweaver, etc. The chart is also colour-coded using the polestones.

Dustbringer (ruby) sits opposite Willshaper (amethyst), if both "opposing" polestones can hold a flamespren, then logically a windspren would go in sapphire and garnet.

This is also why I've theorised elsewhere that an inverted version of the suppressor fabrial would use sapphires or a mix of sapphires and garnets.

Thougj I do have one question, what's the singer gemheart made of? It must be a polestone, judging by its properties. It must also allow a lot of kinds of spren inside it.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't see the issue, Khriss wouldn't know much about the forms of power, would she? (was the essay even written before the Everstorm?)

Hmm, that is a good question. 

Double-checking the essay it's very vague. It only makes reference to Surgebinding and there's the mention of storms, but that seems to be about Highstorms, given they are described as shaping life on Roshar over millennia and being guessed to predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation.

So, probably before the Everstorm or working with established information soon after the arrival of the Everstorm.

Given its complete non-discussion of singers, while mentioning humans bonding spren, referencing Ryshadium and talking about the megafauna, this points to writing about a human-dominated planet. It really can't be post-True Desolation.

Then the question is, when's the Ars Arcana from?

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

Except Pailiah who has the Elsecaller's platespren and Shalash who has nothing

Yeeeah, I think that's got to be one of those WoBs where Brandon just got the information wrong, either because it's something that's changed since he came up with it (like Mistborn's silver/tin conundrum), because he answered the question he thought he was being asked or because he made a mistake in the moment (like Oathbringer being an Honorblade).

Or the artist could have gotten incorrect instructions, though it feels like they should have someone making sure that the art is consistent with what it's meant to depict.

As for Ash, creationspren can mimic things, so that's a possible out. Though we shouldn't need justifications like that.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

They look as much as lucksprens as Taln's orange dots look like painsprens (granted, painspren is our best guess guess at Stoneward's platespren but it's quite flimsy)

Yeah, it's not super helpful that we have three portraits that have the spren vague orange thing, Chana, Taln and Ishar.

It took me quite a while to understant that the ones in Ishar's picture were meant to be gloryspren and not rising embers.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

He did not

Then I think that terminology difference might be a good explanation.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

Honestly I think Dawnsingers used the sprenless surgebinding Brandon mentioned once, this type of Surgebinding is supposed to be very dangerous, especially with Transformation.

That tracks with being forbidden to do it, hopefully we'll see in the future.

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

Possibly because Musicsprens aren't actually about music and Rosharan just made an incorrect assumption

I did a little thinking on this and came to two realisations.

Labeling Mandras luckspren seems very arbitrary and we never see them pop up around people who experience positive coincidences or anything like that. Then I realised that it might come from seeing them around people who had experienced bad falls and such, making daring leaps and falling short, falling from a high window, that kind of thing, but coming out of it "miraculously" unharmed.

People experiencing similar things to Rysn and the spren becoming associated with that kind of luck.

The other thought is that there must be something in music that attracts musicspren, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten that name, so what's common between music and horses?

Well, as you know if you've heard a horse run, there's a distinct rhythm to it ba-da-bam ba-da-bam ba-da-bam, so I think that musicspren might more accurately be termed "rhythmspren" or "beatspren." They're not attracted to music as such, just a quality of the music, one you also find in horses.

 

 

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