Odium, the Fused, and yet another attempt at mapping the Unmade to the Radiant Orders

[Inquisitor #5]

Welcome one and all, as I invoke the most potent of muses: half-baked rambling!

 

Part one: Ground work

It's probably for the best if I lay down some basic premises that I'm working from for clarity.

Premise one: all arcana found on Roshar are, at their root, emanations of the Surges. Surgebinding, Voidbinding, fabrials, the "even more esoteric" system that Khriss theorises in the Roshar essay, the powers of the Unmade, the forms of the singers and whatever else there might be. The possible exception is the Old Magic, which Brandon himself has called its own weird thing.

Premise two: Odium is fully capable of granting access to all ten Surges, the lack of Adhesion Fused is deliberate on Rayse's part. It makes more sense to me that he'd just copy/access the existing framework of Surgebinding, rather than building his own, separate 9/10 of Surgebinding.

Premise three: there are Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations of every Surge, as well as "Radiant" and "Voidish" expressions of the same.

 

Part two: What was Rayse afraid of?

What do mean by that?

Under my interpretation, Rayse deliberately withheld Adhesion from the Fused, which seems odd.

Why would he want his servants to only have access to nine of the Surges? 

Are Bondsmiths not proof that Adhesion can be an incredible boon to your forces? Even if they don't have access to the level of power of a Radiant Bondsmith, they should still have access to the same Adhesion abilities, just weaker. 

Having a couple of Fused who could act as walking batteries for the extremely Light-hungy Nex-im, for instance, feels like a great force multiplier.

We can also infer that Odium can grant access to Adhesion, as a limited expression of it is the simplest explanation for the abilities of envoyform, making the lack of Adhesion Fused even more glaring.

You might at this point be wondering why I claim that Rayse was afraid of something, only to blather about why it's weird that there are no Adhesion Fused instead. Worry not, I'll get to that.

So, what do we know of Rayse's goals?

Rayse wants to be the top dog in the cosmere and he wants to remain Odium.

Rayse wants to be free to go on his murder rampage, so he does not want to Invest Odium anywhere, so as to not anchor him to a system.

We can even track a possible modus operandi, as the Unmade are implied to have been something else in the past and several Voidspren show the telltale red of corrupted Investiture, which suggests to me that Rayse would typically twist existing things to serve him, rather than creating those things himself. We can also see this in his actions as tempter on Ashyn and his goal to make Rosharan humanity his army, after the cycle of Desolations has toughened them up enough.

We also know that prior to the False Desolation and related events Roshar had two Pure Tones, after it had three. This implies to me that something that happened there Invested Odium on Roshar. Something we can guess didn't happen at Rayse's volition.

Now, you might ask "why would being Invested be a problem to Rayse? Surely he'd not be morally conflicted at reclaiming any part of his that got Invested somewhere?"

And no, I don't think he'd have a moral problem with taking back his power, but I don't think he can, or at least it's hard for him.

As other people have already noted, for instance the thread speculating that Division is Odium's Truest Surge, Odium generally stands for something divisive, just as Honor can be seen as uniting. And yes, both can switch places, but hatred generally pushes you away from people and following some form of framework generally makes you part of a group.

As just one example, we can see these thematic elements of Odium and Honor in the Surgebinders:

Knights Radiant are a union of spren and humans (traditionally), working together to do things neither can do alone.

Fused are solitary, forgoing even the normal relationship between spren and singer, as well as casting out the soul of the singer whose body they inhabit.

And Odium's forces have other thematic divisions or separations as well:

Most of the Fused have lost track of their original goal, being unlikely to relinquish rule to the common singers if they actually won. They are no longer fighting for their stated goal and are thematically separated from themselves.

The former parshmen have been denied both the opportunity to make their own future and the ties they gained to the various national cultures of Roshar, they are separated both from their own self-determination and cultural roots.

Moash/Vyre is very straightforward, he's separated from his emotions.

The Unmade are separated from whatever they were before they were Unmade.

And, while he's not known to be on Odium's side, Renarin's bond to an Enlightened spren sets him apart from normal Radiants.

So, Odium is a (generally) separating force, so what?

Well, that, along with the idiosyncracies noted by robardin, I believe, last week, points to that Odium might have a hard time reclaiming his Investiture.

Quote

"We must follow one of them?" Turash asked. "A human?"

Venli's breath caught. There had been no respect in that tone.

Odium smiled. "You will follow me, Turash, or I will reclaim that which gives you persistent life. I care not for the shape of the tool. Only that it cuts."

-Oathbringer, chapter 118

Quote

"I said I cannot agree," Odium said. "The Everstorm changes everything, and Cephandrius should have realized this. Singers can adopt Regal forms powered by the Everstorm. The Fused are free now; they can be reborn without my intervention. The Oathpact could have imprisoned them, but it is now defunct. I am literally unable to do as you ask, not without destroying myself in the process."

-Rhythm of War, chapter 112

Quote

"No," Leshwi said. "Those tunnels are blocked. Our best hope was to escape out the front entrance of the tower, and perhaps cross the mountains. Unfortunately, judging by those rhythms, these who come aren't being sent by Raboniel. Odium wants me to know. I will be tortured like the Heralds once I return to Braize."

-Rhythm of War, chapter 111

For all Rayse's threatening he apparently can't make good on the threat to force the Fused to stay away or to punish a traitor? It seems to be a lot of bluster.

So what would Rayse be afraid of?

Becoming Invested somewhere, hindering his murder-athon and, by extention, someone else being able to manipulate Odium's Investiture freely.

Thus my conclusion is that Rayse wouldn't risk having Bondsmith-alike Fused, on the off chance that they'd so something Bondsmith-y, resulting in some of his power going where he doesn't want it.

This might also be why the Everstorm doesn't infuse gems, though I do believe that Voidlight naturally cycles back to Odium, even if it can't be actively reclaimed.

Also that Rayse seems like a blithering idiot for not following the Returned design philosophy, but then again, it's entirely possible he couldn't tweak that to run only on Voidlight, rather than Investiture over all.

A side-note at the end of this is also that I think it could be possible that the Fused getting a passive and an active effect from their Light might be a conscious design descision on Rayse's part, as an attempt to make less of Odium's Investiture circulate.

Part three: Unmade, Surges and cousinspren

So, what's the deal?

Well, there's this WoB:

Quote

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

Which has of course had people trying to find which one maps to which Order, though note that Brandon says it's not a perfect match.

I have personally thought that the Unmade should fill the Bondsmith spot, being parallel to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. I'm fully prepared to accept that this might be the case, that bonding an Unmade produces a Bondsmith, even though the power of the spren itself isn't in the same slot.

However, I recently encountered something that shifted my perspective and made me think that this might not be the case.

Now, as I stated in part one, I believe that whatever the Unmade powers are, they fully fit within the context of the Surges.

I also favour the cousinspren method of parallels, as each cousinspren seems able to manifest the primary Surge of the associated Radiant Order, e.g. windspren known to stick things together, a manifestation of Adhesion. (I do think that properly what I call the primary Surge would be denoted secondary Surge, as otherwise the Radiant Order that lacks a corresponding Fused Brand is Windrunners, not Bondsmiths. But I'm gonna use primary, since that's the order they're listed in.)

Now, we need to be conscious of that there are three Unmade we don't really know anything about; Ba-Ado-Mishram, as all her Connection and Bondsmith-seeming shenanigans don't seem to have been a thing before the False Desolation, going by the Gem archive, that being her only known abilities makes it hard to line her up with anything, as it's apparently not her base powerset, Dai-Gonarthis, who is an almost complete unknown and Chemoarish who is much the same.

That in mind, let's make a list!

Windrunner/Surge of Adhesion

Unmade: Yelig-nar

I personally believe that Yelig-nar's ability to grant all Surges possibly comes from an application of Adhesion, similar to the Bondsmith ability to manipulate the Surges of other Radiants. He also fits thematically, being known as Blightwind.

Skybreaker/Surge of Gravitation

Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish

We have not seen the influence of any Unmade that I would assume uses a form of Gravitation, leaving only the three unknowns.

Dustbringer/Surge of Division

Unmade: Nergaoul

Nergaoul's power could well be a Cognitive manifestation of Division, it both breaks down resolve and discipline and causes people to fight like individuals, not soldiers. Thematically the total loss of control of the Thrill is absolutely counter to the Dustbringer theme of self-mastery.

Edgedancer/Surge of Abrasion

Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish

Not much to say here, again I don't think an Unmade we've properly seen the influence of lines up. Thematically Chemoarish might fit, being known as Dustmother, but that is tenuous.

Truthwatcher/Surge of Progression

Unmade: Moelach

Moelach's power to grant access to glimpses of the future might be a manifestation od the Surge of Progression, a Cognitive/Spiritual application of Growth, granting further access to the Spiritual at the Realmatic transition of death. Thematically Moelach grants access to looking at what can or will be, instead of the present truth of what is.

Lightweaver/Surge of Illumination

Unmade: Re-Shephir

Shallan directly compares her to a creationspren, confirmed to be the cousinspren of Cryptics. Thematically she makes tangible darkness where Lightweavers make ephemeral light.

Elsecaller/Surge of Transformation

Unmade: Sja-anat

Sja-anat changes spren, the most straightforward cause of which would be Transformation. Thematically she's also semi-present in both the Physical and Cognitive Realms, in addition, she's called Taker of Secrets, contrasting the scholarly characterisation of the Elsecallers, she aquires the knowledge of others rather than making new knowledge.

Willshaper/Surge of Transportation

Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish

The last Surge which no Unmade seems to have exhibited thus far, making it hard to guess.

Stoneward/Surge of Cohesion

Unmade: Ashertmarn

Ashertmarn could be placed in a few different spots, and I myself have previously gone with Abrasion, but after some consideration I think that the power of the Heart of the Revel is possibly a Cognitive manifestation of the Surge of Cohesion, making people soft and pliable. Thematically the hedonism of Ashertmarn can also be seen as an inversion of the Stoneward theme of being where they need to be.

 

 

Well, that took absolutely forever to type, if you made it here, thanks for reading.

I hope it's all (fairly) clear and possible to follow, though I know I tend to ramble.

Discussion both welcome and encouraged.

 

 

¤_¤

[Zoey]

Hmm... That does make a lot of sense. More abstract correlations of course, but that does fit with the WoB that they are similar but not 1-to-1. I quite like this theory about how they line up.  

[Frustration]

13 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Premise two: Odium is fully capable of granting access to all ten Surges, the lack of Adhesion Fused is deliberate on Rayse's part. It makes more sense to me that he'd just copy/access the existing framework of Surgebinding, rather than building his own, separate 9/10 of Surgebinding.

Under my interpretation, Rayse deliberately withheld Adhesion from the Fused, which seems odd.

Why would he want his servants to only have access to nine of the Surges? 

two problems here

1. Braize is a nine centric planet

Spoiler

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

and two you only listed 9 surges, why would Tension be the one not given instead of Adhesion?

[Zoey]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

two problems here

1. Braize is a nine centric planet

  Hide contents

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

and two you only listed 9 surges, why would Tension be the one not given instead of Adhesion?

Well, it could be an intentional choice that he cut out Adhesion and made himself 9 instead of 10. Which would explain the sudden 9 in a system of 10s. Or it could be due to the currently unknown system he originated on being 9-Based. Either can make sense. 

I also saw people add together the idea that he makes people feel a void of emotions to say that it is like the 10 being added to a removal of -1, the void, making it be 9. Forgot where I saw this theory. 

[Frustration]

17 minutes ago, Zoey said:

Well, it could be an intentional choice that he cut out Adhesion and made himself 9 instead of 10. Which would explain the sudden 9 in a system of 10s. Or it could be due to the currently unknown system he originated on being 9-Based. Either can make sense. 

Odium isn't 9, Braize is 9.

perhapse a purely semantic difference, but a difference.

[Zoey]

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Odium isn't 9, Braize is 9.

perhapse a purely semantic difference, but a difference.

My thought it that maybe Odium played a part in it. But yeah, it is Braize.

One question though that I am wondering, why he worked with some Shards and not betray them afterwards. This is something I have been curious about for a while. But it isn't fully relevant to the current topic. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, Zoey said:

why he worked with some Shards and not betray them afterwards

I don't think we know he's worked with any other Shards, do we? Only WoB I know on the subject is intentionally super open-ended.

[Honorless]

That makes a lot of sense. We guessed the generalities from Bondsmith abilities, Honor himself restricting them somewhat and Rayse's personality but nothing as concrete. Also, the Envoyform obviously requiring Spiritual Connection totally slipped my sight! Good work!

[Inquisitor #5]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Braize is a nine centric planet

I don't see this as a problem, my premise is that Odium is hacking into the existing paradigm of Surgebinding, not that he's granting access to Braizish Surgebinding.

It's similar to how Scadrial being 16-centric is not a problem for hemalurgically stolen Surgebinding.

Both are accessing an existing system in nonstandard ways, not creating a new system.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

two you only listed 9 surges, why would Tension be the one not given instead of Adhesion?

Ah, I might have been a bit unclear. I was working on this on and off for several hours and had to do revisions when I found things didn't make sense, so I might have missed some explanatory stuff.

If I'm getting you right this is about my mapping of Unmade to Radiants, correct?

My thinking goes that we have each Order and they have an associated True spren, as well as a cousinspren corresponding to said True spren, that makes their Plate.

Several cousinspren have been shown to have access to the Surges in a limited capacity, seemingly only a single Surge per type of spren. Windspren are known to stick things to eachother, a clear use of Adhesion, luckspren let various fauna play fast and loose with gravity, a clear use of Gravitation.

I also think that this pattern will hold for every cousinspren, possibly barring gloryspren as Bondsmiths are a bit of an outlier. Thus far, every known expression of a Surge by a cousinspren that was not induced by an outside stimulus has lined up in a certain pattern.

If we list the Radiant Orders:

Windrunner: Adhesion, Gravitation

Skybreaker: Gravitation, Division

Dustbringer: Division, Abrasion

Edgedancer: Abrasion, Progression

Truthwatcher: Progression, Illumination

Lightweaver: Illumination, Transformation

Elsecaller: Transformation, Transportation

Willshaper: Transportation, Cohesion

Stoneward: Cohesion, Tension

Bondsmith: Tension, Adhesion

The known occurences line up with the Surge listed first for the associated Order and I'd expect this pattern to hold.

These are the Surges I choose to term Primary.

It also makes sense if Re-Shephir is described as a very wrong creationspren, that the other Unmade might be similar.

Thus my conclusion that a parallel to Windrunner should be expressing the Surge of Adhesion, same as a windspren.

Following the pattern leaves out Tension, as that would be the domain of the non-existent Bondsmith parallel.

Incidentally this is also why I've been grumpy about the shanay-im being equated to Windrunners since Oathbringer, I feeel that if Adhesion is missing from the Fused that means there's no Windrunner equivalent.

56 minutes ago, Honorless said:

That makes a lot of sense. We guessed the generalities from Bondsmith abilities, Honor himself restricting them somewhat and Rayse's personality but nothing as concrete. Also, the Envoyform obviously requiring Spiritual Connection totally slipped my sight! Good work!

Aww, thanks 

I'm happy I got around to typing it up and not just bouncing it off my partner and my cousin.

 

¤_¤

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't see this as a problem, my premise is that Odium is hacking into the existing paradigm of Surgebinding, not that he's granting access to Braizish Surgebinding.

But he and the fused are tied to Braize.

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It's similar to how Scadrial being 16-centric is not a problem for hemalurgically stolen Surgebinding.

Hemalurgically stolen isn't the same as corrupted though.

25 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Incidentally this is also why I've been grumpy about the shanay-im being equated to Windrunners since Oathbringer, I feeel that if Adhesion is missing from the Fused that means there's no Windrunner equivalent.

Well if you do the clock method Bondsmiths and Windrunners both start with Adhesion.

[Inquisitor #5]

Just now, Frustration said:

But he and the fused are tied to Braize.

Yes, but I see him as hacking his way into the existing Surgebinding of Roshar. His being tied to Braize should in no way affect how this manifests.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Hemalurgically stolen isn't the same as corrupted though.

Well, no but I felt it was a good illustration. Both are, by my interpretation, backdooring into something existing. 

You pointed out yourself that Odium isn't nine-centric, Braize is, so why should Odium's power manifest on Roshar under a Braizish paradigm?

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well if you do the clock method Bondsmiths and Windrunners both start with Adhesion.

I'm... not sure I follow, sorry?

Would each Order not automatically start offset by one from each neighbor?

If both are Adhesion primary, are they not definitionally Gravitation secondary?

Or Tension secondary if one picks that direction?

Or am I misunderstanding entirely?

 

 

¤_¤

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yes, but I see him as hacking his way into the existing Surgebinding of Roshar.

His being tied to Braize should in no way affect how this manifests.Well, no but I felt it was a good illustration. Both are, by my interpretation, backdooring into something existing. 

Because he's taking Surgebinding and making it his, not taking his forces and giving them surgebinding.

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

You pointed out yourself that Odium isn't nine-centric, Braize is, so why should Odium's power manifest on Roshar under a Braizish paradigm?

The Fused are residents of Braize, Kaladin could go to Ashyn, but Syl wouldn't turn into a disease

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm... not sure I follow, sorry?

Nevermind I misremembered my facts

[Zoey]

Actually, wouldn't Yelig-Nar be of Willshapers due to the fact that when Amaram bonded with it he began to transmute into and grow a bunch of Amethyst crystals, and Amethyst is associated with Kalak and Willshapers according to the Ten Essences. 

[Inquisitor #5]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Because he's taking Surgebinding and making it his, not taking his forces and giving them surgebinding.

Oh, there I very much disagree, I'd say he's definitely doing the latter, not the former.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The Fused are residents of Braize, Kaladin could go to Ashyn, but Syl wouldn't turn into a disease

The Fused are Rosharan singers (or copies thereof, depending on your stance on CSs), using Rosharan bodies, accessing Rosharan magic.

They are bound to Braize, presumably beacuse they are made up of Odium's Investiture, but they are beings of Roshar.

Imagine that an allomancer went to Roshar and was granted persistence like the Heralds, they would not need a spren to do allomancy, or start wielding Surges by burning metals. All the same they'd be bound to Roshar.

In the same way the Fused are people of Roshar, that they're now Connected to Braize doesn't change that.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Nevermind I misremembered my facts

'S all good. 

17 minutes ago, Zoey said:

Actually, wouldn't Yelig-Nar be of Willshapers due to the fact that when Amaram bonded with it he began to transmute into and grow a bunch of Amethyst crystals, and Amethyst is associated with Kalak and Willshapers according to the Ten Essences. 

I had not considered this, it is a possibility, though I find connecting what we see of him to Transportation hard.

It would be interesting to know if the gem growths match the swallowed gem and if he can be held in multiple kinds of polestone.

Good catch.

 

@Frustration, thanks for all the verbal sparring across multiple topics, your high engagement and seemingly unerring tendency to find an interpretation contrary to mine has led to a lot of enjoyable debating, as well as giving me the opportunity to do additional passes across my theories and ideas.

 

¤_¤

 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh, there I very much disagree, I'd say he's definitely doing the latter, not the former.

The Fused are Rosharan singers (or copies thereof, depending on your stance on CSs), using Rosharan bodies, accessing Rosharan magic.

They are bound to Braize, presumably beacuse they are made up of Odium's Investiture, but they are beings of Roshar.

Imagine that an allomancer went to Roshar and was granted persistence like the Heralds, they would not need a spren to do allomancy, or start wielding Surges by burning metals. All the same they'd be bound to Roshar.

The Fused don't get surgebinding from Spren though, they get it from Odium, and Odium is on Braize.

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

 

@Frustration, thanks for all the verbal sparring across multiple topics, your high engagement and seemingly unerring tendency to find an interpretation contrary to mine has led to a lot of enjoyable debating, as well as giving me the opportunity to do additional passes across my theories and ideas.

 

¤_¤

 

Why thank you

[Zoey]

37 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh, there I very much disagree, I'd say he's definitely doing the latter, not the former.

The Fused are Rosharan singers (or copies thereof, depending on your stance on CSs), using Rosharan bodies, accessing Rosharan magic.

They are bound to Braize, presumably beacuse they are made up of Odium's Investiture, but they are beings of Roshar.

Imagine that an allomancer went to Roshar and was granted persistence like the Heralds, they would not need a spren to do allomancy, or start wielding Surges by burning metals. All the same they'd be bound to Roshar.

In the same way the Fused are people of Roshar, that they're now Connected to Braize doesn't change that.

'S all good. 

I had not considered this, it is a possibility, though I find connecting what we see of him to Transportation hard.

It would be interesting to know if the gem growths match the swallowed gem and if he can be held in multiple kinds of polestone.

Good catch.

 

@Frustration, thanks for all the verbal sparring across multiple topics, your high engagement and seemingly unerring tendency to find an interpretation contrary to mine has led to a lot of enjoyable debating, as well as giving me the opportunity to do additional passes across my theories and ideas.

 

¤_¤

 

Oh yeah, I forgot that he was in an Amethyst Gem, so yeah, likely was a result of the Gem he was sealed in. But than again, Spren tend to prefer certain polestones, so it could still very much be intentionally sealed in Amethyst in particular.  

[mathiau]

23 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

For all Rayse's threatening he apparently can't make good on the threat to force the Fused to stay away or to punish a traitor? It seems to be a lot of bluster.

I think you misunderstood what threat Odium was giving. He was threatening to remove the fact he comes back after he dies not to kill him and that would do little on Leshwi.

Quote

I have personally thought that the Unmade should fill the Bondsmith spot, being parallel to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. I'm fully prepared to accept that this might be the case, that bonding an Unmade produces a Bondsmith, even though the power of the spren itself isn't in the same slot.

However, I recently encountered something that shifted my perspective and made me think that this might not be the case.

Now, as I stated in part one, I believe that whatever the Unmade powers are, they fully fit within the context of the Surges.

This is my hypothesis too. With the added caveat that bounding an Unmade would give you the Spiritual version of the Void they where using and if you manage to transform a Gloryspren into a Truespren and bounded them you'd not become a Boundsmith but a Radiant with the physical versions of Tension and Adhesion.

Quote

I also favour the cousinspren method of parallels, as each cousinspren seems able to manifest the primary Surge of the associated Radiant Order, e.g. windspren known to stick things together, a manifestation of Adhesion. (I do think that properly what I call the primary Surge would be denoted secondary Surge, as otherwise the Radiant Order that lacks a corresponding Fused Brand is Windrunners, not Bondsmiths. But I'm gonna use primary, since that's the order they're listed in.)

I don't know, I'm pretty sure lifesprens use Progression and not Abrasion

Quote

Windrunner/Surge of Adhesion

Unmade: Yelig-nar

I personally believe that Yelig-nar's ability to grant all Surges possibly comes from an application of Adhesion, similar to the Bondsmith ability to manipulate the Surges of other Radiants. He also fits thematically, being known as Blightwind.

I disagree. If it was the case the crystal that grew in Amaram's chest would have been a saphire not an Amethyst (by the way for many years the gemstone Amaram swallowed was a smokestone, not an amethyst, and I doubt they'd have taken two and a half years to fix having him swallow the wrong stone if stone that grew was the same as the one that was swallowed. It's more likely Brandon decided he didn't like Unmade getting traped inside of gemstone of another order than their own).

The Windrunner/Surge of Adhesion Unmade is most likely BaM the Nahel Spren, her giving forms of power to the Singers seems quite similar to Force of Squires.

Also Bondsmiths don't maniplulate the Surges of other Radiants, they empower them

Quote

Skybreaker/Surge of Gravitation

Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish

We have not seen the influence of any Unmade that I would assume uses a form of Gravitation, leaving only the three unknowns.

I agree it's either Dai-Gonarthis or Chemoarish here, I think Chemoarish is slightly more likely since she's called the Dustmother and Skybreakers have division

Quote

Dustbringer/Surge of Division

Unmade: Nergaoul

Nergaoul's power could well be a Cognitive manifestation of Division, it both breaks down resolve and discipline and causes people to fight like individuals, not soldiers. Thematically the total loss of control of the Thrill is absolutely counter to the Dustbringer theme of self-mastery.

I completly agree with this one

Quote

Edgedancer/Surge of Abrasion

Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish

Not much to say here, again I don't think an Unmade we've properly seen the influence of lines up. Thematically Chemoarish might fit, being known as Dustmother, but that is tenuous.

I prefer to have Ashertmarn here, he's basically complacency which fits decently as an oposite of Edgedancer's mercy.

Quote

Truthwatcher/Surge of Progression

Unmade: Moelach

Moelach's power to grant access to glimpses of the future might be a manifestation od the Surge of Progression, a Cognitive/Spiritual application of Growth, granting further access to the Spiritual at the Realmatic transition of death. Thematically Moelach grants access to looking at what can or will be, instead of the present truth of what is.

Lightweaver/Surge of Illumination

Unmade: Re-Shephir

Shallan directly compares her to a creationspren, confirmed to be the cousinspren of Cryptics. Thematically she makes tangible darkness where Lightweavers make ephemeral light.

Elsecaller/Surge of Transformation

Unmade: Sja-anat

Sja-anat changes spren, the most straightforward cause of which would be Transformation. Thematically she's also semi-present in both the Physical and Cognitive Realms, in addition, she's called Taker of Secrets, contrasting the scholarly characterisation of the Elsecallers, she aquires the knowledge of others rather than making new knowledge.

Obviously I agree to these three.

Quote

Willshaper/Surge of Transportation

Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish

The last Surge which no Unmade seems to have exhibited thus far, making it hard to guess.

As I implied earlier, I think Yelig-nar is the one going here. Firstly because he makes amethists growth but also because I have a way to link Spiritual Microkinessis to the manipulation of all Surges. (Yes I know your theory is based on the fact Unmade only use the Clockwise Surge but first we seen the Stormfather using physical Adhesion all the time and most importantly we've never heard about Yelig-nar actually doing things but only about him bonding with person and them doing things which falls into my Spiritual Void hypothesis)

It will use some elements for Dragonsteel Prime (to be exact elements of @LewsTherinTelescope's theory)

Spoiler

So, Microkinessis is

Quote

Stoneward/Surge of Cohesion

Unmade: Ashertmarn

Ashertmarn could be placed in a few different spots, and I myself have previously gone with Abrasion, but after some consideration I think that the power of the Heart of the Revel is possibly a Cognitive manifestation of the Surge of Cohesion, making people soft and pliable. Thematically the hedonism of Ashertmarn can also be seen as an inversion of the Stoneward theme of being where they need to be.

 

Quote

Well, that took absolutely forever to type

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

two problems here

1. Braize is a nine centric planet

  Reveal hidden contents

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

and two you only listed 9 surges, why would Tension be the one not given instead of Adhesion?

This only matters if the Unmades where made on Braize after it became 9 centric, which we don't know.

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

@Frustration, thanks for all the verbal sparring across multiple topics, your high engagement and seemingly unerring tendency to find an interpretation contrary to mine has led to a lot of enjoyable debating, as well as giving me the opportunity to do additional passes across my theories and ideas.

I'd like to express the same sentiment toward both you, @Frustration and @LewsTherinTelescope

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The Fused don't get surgebinding from Spren though, they get it from Odium, and Odium is on Braize.

That might be one of the cases where the fact Shards technically are everywhere actually matters

1 hour ago, Zoey said:

Oh yeah, I forgot that he was in an Amethyst Gem, so yeah, likely was a result of the Gem he was sealed in. But than again, Spren tend to prefer certain polestones, so it could still very much be intentionally sealed in Amethyst in particular.  

For example Nergaoul was sealed in a ruby, the Dustbringer gemstone.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Also Bondsmiths don't maniplulate the Surges of other Radiants, they empower them

Eh, I would say "manipulate" would be a more accurate word, though I would instead say "manipulates the effect of their Surgebinding" than saying he directly manipulates the Surge himself. It's not like Shallan is more powerful when making the map, for example, she on her own is capable of creating a crazy amount of Lightweaving if she needs to. But Dalinar does essentially plug a Connection into it that it uses as a source.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I'd like to express the same sentiment toward both you, @Frustration and @LewsTherinTelescope

Why thank you, and to you and @Inquisitor #5 as well

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

That might be one of the cases where the fact Shards technically are everywhere actually matters

But Rayse is invested on and Bound to Braize, Braize is where the Fused go when they die, not the CR of Roshar, even with the Oathpact barely functioning

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Eh, I would say "manipulate" would be a more accurate word, though I would instead say "manipulates the effect of their Surgebinding" than saying he directly manipulates the Surge himself. It's not like Shallan is more powerful when making the map, for example, she on her own is capable of creating a crazy amount of Lightweaving if she needs to. But Dalinar does essentially plug a Connection into it that it uses as a source.

You're right, he's "only" plugging the Stormfather's memories into Shallan's Lightweaving, not making it stronger or fundamentally modifying how it works

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

But Rayse is invested on and Bound to Braize, Braize is where the Fused go when they die, not the CR of Roshar, even with the Oathpact barely functioning

Yes but saying Rayse can't give the Surge Adhesion (a Rosharan magic) because Braize is 9 centric feels a lot like saying if Harmony was on Roshar he couldn't give A-chromium because Roshar is 10 centric

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Yes but saying Rayse can't give the Surge Adhesion (a Rosharan magic) because Braize is 9 centric feels a lot like saying if Harmony was on Roshar he couldn't give A-chromium because Roshar is 10 centric

Yep, I can't find it right now, but remind me and I'll check again I'm pretty certain Brandon says that a lot of magic is determined by the planet.

 

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Yep, I can't find it right now, but remind me and I'll check again I'm pretty certain Brandon says that a lot of magic is determined by the planet.

The magic systems that can appear on a planet is strongly influenced by the planet and the beliefs of the people living there but I don't think there's anything about magic systems changing when you get to another planet, even if Harmony moves to Roshar Allomancy will still be linked to Scadrial and therefore to 16

(Ok, technically there's that WoB but since how the Nahel bound works on Roshar has been tampered with (at least by the birth of BaM) it's like saying Sandmastery doesn't work offworld because the sand doesn't have the fungi)

[Inquisitor #5]

7 hours ago, mathiau said:

I think you misunderstood what threat Odium was giving. He was threatening to remove the fact he comes back after he dies not to kill him and that would do little on Leshwi.

But this is a threat made after the Everstorm became a thing.

The same Everstorm that Rayse says will let the Fused be reborn without him.

If the threat is about stopping his being reborn it's a bit like threatening to lock the door when you've not yet finished installing the walls.

I'd also argue that persistent life sounds more like a term for continual existence, while something like recurrent life would be indicative of continual rebirth.

7 hours ago, mathiau said:

With the added caveat that bounding an Unmade would give you the Spiritual version of the Void they where using and if you manage to transform a Gloryspren into a Truespren and bounded them you'd not become a Boundsmith but a Radiant with the physical versions of Tension and Adhesion.

This sounds reasonable, assuming I'm understang you correctly.

Am I correct in assuming that you think bonding an Unmade would give access to a complete/fuller version of their associated Surge(s) just like how bonding a Bondsmith spren seems to grant access to a complete/fuller version of Tension and Adhesion (Spiritual, Cognitive and Physical aspects)? (I don't know if you've seen mine and Frustration's big terminology disagreement here, in short, I don't think that there's a distinction into Voids and Surges, but rather that the Surges have multiple forms of expression, which is what I tried to explain in the ground work section.) 

As for the bit on gloryspren, that makes sense, though I'd quibble that the non-Bondsmith Radiants dabble in non-Physical aspects of their Surges, but I get what you're saying. And to be fair, standard Radiants seem to mostly do Physical things, so everything in this section is terminology quibbling and not disagreement.

As a thought experiment, that I hope can easily determine if we're actually thinking the same way, imagine you had an honorspren at the level of power of the Unmade/Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Sibling, would bonding that spren grant you Adhesion and Gravitation at the same level as bonding a Bondsmith spren grants you Tension and Adhesion?

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't know, I'm pretty sure lifesprens use Progression and not Abrasion

I think the only time we've seen this is with the listener farming method, which is why I had the caveat of not induced from the outside in the explanation of my second post. The farming method uses Light and a stimulus, I feel very inclined to label it a proto-fabrial, personally.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

I disagree. If it was the case the crystal that grew in Amaram's chest would have been a saphire not an Amethyst

I'm not so sure that this is a strong correlation, though I do see where both you and @Zoey are coming from with this. If we saw the influence of other Unmade, or spren in general, causing crystal growth in various colours I'd be more inclined ascribe it significance.

There's also the fact that on what we know as the Voidbinding chart, the Windrunner position has a purple tone to it as well.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

by the way for many years the gemstone Amaram swallowed was a smokestone, not an amethyst

Thanks for the fact-check, I couldn't remember that the type of gem was given and further had no idea that it'd changed, different print runs I assume?

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

The Windrunner/Surge of Adhesion Unmade is most likely BaM the Nahel Spren, her giving forms of power to the Singers seems quite similar to Force of Squires.

That is an interesting angle I hadn't considered, I took all of her noted abilities during the False Desolation in the category "Mishram's suprising new powers," which meant I did not include them for consideration, as they all seemed Bondsmith-y to me.

This is also why I've lumped her in with Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish, even though we actually know of stuff that she's capable of. The abilities she displayed during the False Desolation are talked about as if they're something new, so her powerset before then is as much an unknown as those of the other two.

Thematically Mishram during the False Desolation seems to act as proxy-Odium, in much the same way that Dalinar is proxy-Honor in the present, aligning with the "office" of Bondsmith.

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

I think Chemoarish is slightly more likely since she's called the Dustmother and Skybreakers have division

In an earlier draft I actually made this connection myself, but abandoned it.

I don't think it needs to be untrue, it just gets a bit weird when you work in a paradigm where this would mean that the power of Dustmother should mainly be a manifestation of Gravitation, and not the more intuitive Division.

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

I prefer to have Ashertmarn here, he's basically complacency which fits decently as an oposite of Edgedancer's mercy.

When I originally went down this rabbit hole (piece of wet slime-hole?) I actually did place Ashertmarn here, describing its influence as a mental "slicking." Giving it further thought I've found that insufficient, Shallan's experiences in Kholinar seem to point to something active behind it, people's inhibitions aren't just lowered, there seems to be an active push for them to take the plunge and join the revel.

Thus I find Abrasion does not seem to account for it entirely and have placed Ashertmarn as using a Surge known to actively change things, while I see Abrasion as passively enabling change.

This could of course be one of the things that make up the "not one to one" part of the WoB.

As a final point here, I'd peg it not as complacency but hedonism and indulgence, but, wishing to maintain intellectual honesty, I will note that it can still be a thematic negative to the Edgedancers as the results of selfish indulgence and only caring for yourself, as well as the trance-like state we see from Shallan while infiltrating the revel, are counter to the Edgedancer theme of caring and remembering, being wholly short-sighted and self-centered.

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

because I have a way to link Spiritual Microkinessis to the manipulation of all Surges.

 

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

It will use some elements for Dragonsteel Prime (to be exact elements of @LewsTherinTelescope's theory)

That is really interesting, I think I can see what you're getting at, even though it seems your post has lost some words (unless the spoiler box is only supposed to have three words in it)

Having not read Dragonsteel Prime that's not an angle I could have taken, so that's really great imput! 

If I'm understanding you correctly, I could totally see this being true, even if I prefer my Adhesion solution at present.

And thank's for linking the excellently named @LewsTherinTelescope's thread, I'd missed it completely and it was both interesting in its own right and helped me grasp what you were getting at.

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

I know your theory is based on the fact Unmade only use the Clockwise Surge

I will hazard that I think "only" might be the wrong word here, especially after the extra passes that debating it like this leads to, and I'd say that "primarily" might be a better way to phrase it.

That is, I'm open to giving a little more wiggle room, for instance some aspects of Unmade influence might actually be similar to the Reverse Lashing, though possibly with a heavily skewed ratio of Surges.

But yes, I think that each Unmade heavily leans on just one Surge, if they're not outright resticted to one.

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

we've never heard about Yelig-nar actually doing things but only about him bonding with person and them doing things

Well, there is the bit where he's said to have broken into Nohadon's chancery and murdered all his scribes, though of course we don't know if they differentiated Yelig-nar from his host historically.

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

For example Nergaoul was sealed in a ruby, the Dustbringer gemstone.

That is an interesting observation, I'm not entirely sure about it though.

The one perfect gem in the Thaylen gemstone reserve happened to be the right kind to capture Nergaoul? To me this strains disbelief.

On the other hand, if it's correct Team Honor got very lucky indeed. 

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

The Fused don't get surgebinding from Spren though, they get it from Odium, and Odium is on Braize.

I'm not sure if you mean that just as Connection to a spren gives a Radiant Surgebinding, so does Connection to Odium give a Fused Surgebinding.

If that is the case, shouldn't Leshwi have lost her Surgebinding by the time they arrive at Narak?

In any case, my take is that the Fused carry the power with them. We know that each fused must carry with them the "code" that makes the singer physiology grant a certain form, as Fused "cannot share [their] dwelling" and each Brand seems tied to a specific form, implying that they act as the spren granting said form as well.

I could either see access to a particular Surge being "imprinted" on their soul or, more likely, being a hack using singer biology.

I have elsewhere advanced the notion that singer biology has some expression of the Surge of Progresson built in, to me that's the simplest explanation for how the forms work, when adopting a new form the singer's body is Grown, based on a pattern determined by the spren bonded.

We also know from Venli's chat with the mountain that the Dawnsingers could wield at least Cohesion and the simplest explanation for abilities seen from forms of power is also the Surges, if in a limited capacity, like Venli's Connection (Adhesion) and the stormforms' lightning (my current guess is a form of Division, but we know too little at this stage).

To me these data point seem to point to that it's possible to have forms that grant Surges.

That is, to me, the most likely mechanism behind the Fused. Their souls already carry markers for creating a form (it wouldn't exactly do to have your immortal super soldiers show up in dullform), why not make that a form that accesses a Surge?

This also lets Odium get away with as little Investing as possible, he doesn't need to create a direct backdoor into Surgebinding, or build his own Surgebinding, or grant access to a theoretical Braizish Surgebinding.

He just needs to make Cognitive Shadows out of this one batch, tweak them a bit so they're functional and physically able, oh, and add some markers that make them tap into an additional part of the system he's already exploiting (singer biology), letting them have magic powers, barely any effort on his part, way lower risk of getting all Invested and way less power spent because he just copied a key rather than build a house from scratch.

 

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

I'd like to express the same sentiment toward both you, @Frustration and @LewsTherinTelescope

Thank you and the same.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Why thank you, and to you and @Inquisitor #5 as well

Thanks 

 

 

¤_¤

[+Bzhydack]

21 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

But this is a threat made after the Everstorm became a thing.

The same Everstorm that Rayse says will let the Fused be reborn without him.

If the threat is about stopping his being reborn it's a bit like threatening to lock the door when you've not yet finished installing the walls.

I'd also argue that persistent life sounds more like a term for continual existence, while something like recurrent life would be indicative of continual rebirth.

Not exactly. Everstorm allows Fused to reborn without Odium direct itervention, but they are still Odium's Cognitive Shadows. Odium can't stop them from reborning, but he can reclaim his Investiture and simply stop their existence. Its more like you can carry trunks himself, or send them with mail (and now you dont have control over them) but you can also NOT send them.

[Inquisitor #5]

10 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Its more like you can carry trunks himself, or send them with mail (and now you dont have control over them) but you can also NOT send them.

Let's see if I get this straight, your analogy is that I can either make a delivery, say, a letter, myself, send it by mail or leave it on my desk?

Personal delivery being the old method seen with Lezian at the end of RoW, mail being the Everstorm and on my desk being Odium reclaiming his Investiture from a Fused?

If this is the case, why does Rayse say he can't hold the Fused back? They're not negotiating the letter of the law here, they're negotiating the spirit.

Rayse saying he can't hold them back can't be true if he can tell them "stay on Braize or else." Rayse seems unable to excert that kind of influence, so this doesn't work to me.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

He just needs to make Cognitive Shadows out of this one batch, tweak them a bit so they're functional and physically able, oh, and add some markers that make them tap into an additional part of the system he's already exploiting (singer biology), letting them have magic powers, barely any effort on his part, way lower risk of getting all Invested and way less power spent because he just copied a key rather than build a house from scratch.

A bit of clarification on this, you might notice that this does not sound like what I was originally claiming about Fused/Odium-granted Surgebinding.

I had not developed this idea before, but find it elegantly simple, as well as fitting with my understanding of Rayse's character and letting him be even stringier with his Investiture.

It also gives me the opportunity to call Rayse a lazy hack, so that's a plus. 

 

¤_¤