Cognitive Shadow's & The Beyond

[Thanatos]

Little over 300 pages left on RoW, so please hide spoilers in the tabs.

Love Vasher's explanation of Cognitive Shadow's to Kaladin.

Spoiler

“The Heralds too,” Zahel said. “When they died, they left an imprint behind. Power that remembered being them. You see, the power wants to be alive.” He gestured with his chin toward Syl, flying down beneath them as a ribbon of light. “She’s what I now call a Type One Invested entity. I decided that had to be the proper way to refer to them. Power that came alive on its own.”

"You can see her!” Kaladin said.

“See? No. Sense?” Zahel shrugged. “Cut off a bit of divinity and leave it alone. Eventually it comes alive. And if you let a man die with too Invested a soul—or Invest him right as he’s dying—he’ll leave behind a shadow you can nail back onto a body. His own, if you’re feeling charitable. Once done, you have this.” Zahel waved to himself. “Type Two Invested entity. Dead man walking.”

1. What is everyone's opinion on why this aspect of a person (CS) goes to the Beyond? 

2a. And if the Soul goes to the SR, what would happen if say the real Kelsier meets his CS? During say a Dalinar three realm clap?

2b. Could this be how Kelsier leaves Scadrial with Hoid in era 4? His SS (Spritual Self) combines with his CS that now has a body.

2c. Would that fully join the Kelsier's or would he be like Shallan?

3. Is Hoid a CS stapled to a body, of his creation or not.

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Thanatos

[Fezzik]

1. A cognitive Shadow does not go to the beyond.

Quote

The existence of an afterlife (not Cognitive Shadow style, but in the Beyond) in the cosmere is subject to your own personal interpretation. Everything that happens like this CAN be explained by Realmatic Theory, with very valid examples from the books.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e13765

2. The cognitive self is not separate from the spiritual self.

4 hours ago, Thanatos said:

he’ll leave behind a shadow you can nail back onto a body. His own, if you’re feeling charitable.

Returned are CSs that are nailed onto their own corpses, Kelsier's was eaten by a Kandra.

3. There is no way of determining that at this time.

[Thanatos]

Fezzik,

1. Doesnt the CS in Mistborn get 'pulled' to the Beyond? TLR, Ati, Vin, etc etc. 

The more invested the less pull.

2. After death, my understanding is the body stays in the PR, the CS goes to the beyong and the soul (identity) goes to the SR. Correct me if im wrong.

Returned in my opinion are unique to the Heralds and Kel being that they keep their souls (identity). 

...

Another CS thought, can you copy CS's?

Could Mraize be copy of Kelsier's CS, with Scadrial's/Harmony's identity wiped? Stapled to anothers body? 

Two separate Kelsier's, each with the same goal but now separate beings working together.

Re: Emperor's Soul.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Thanatos

[Fezzik]

26 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

After death, my understanding is the body stays in the PR, the CS goes to the beyong and the soul (identity) goes to the SR.

Yes, the corpse stays in the physical, the cognitive aspect hangs around for a while. Everyone has a cognitive aspect because people exist in all three realms simultaneously. Not everyone is a cognitive shadow. Here is Brandon: 

Quote

A Cognitive Shadow simply means a copy of the Cognitive side made by a deep amount of Investiture. And everybody has a Cognitive side. Basically it's a fake soul. Or, fake is the wrong term. Fake is the wrong term. Even in-world they don't know if it's really them or not. It is Investiture has replaced the Investiture that is fleeing from them as they die, or enhancing it in some way to keep it around. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9405

The soul (if such a thing exists) goes to the beyond (if such a place exists.) Identity with a capitol I is your spiritual fingerprint that identifies magic as you. Not so much a thing that can "travel" somewhere, as a property like mass or elecron spin.

This might also help with understanding:

Spoiler

Argent
Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep
Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?
Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson
RAFO.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183/#e3910

 

[Thanatos]

Fezzik,

Thats pretty much what im saying, but they use the term Spiritweb, which from my understanding is the soul.

So if the CS (fake soul) is destined for the Beyond, but some are able to stay due to high levels of investiture, then there is a possibility they can extract their Spiritweb from the SR. 

Wondering how Kelsier gets off the Scadrian system in era 4.

(Think ive read Vashers CS explanation like 20 time in 36hrs, lol. Fascinating in world theory, blew my mind)

[Inquisitor #5]

14 hours ago, Thanatos said:

1. What is everyone's opinion on why this aspect of a person (CS) goes to the Beyond? 

It doesn't.

14 hours ago, Thanatos said:

2a. And if the Soul goes to the SR, what would happen if say the real Kelsier meets his CS? During say a Dalinar three realm clap?

The Spiritual is not the Beyond.

There's shouldn't be a separate Spiritual Kelsier to meet.

14 hours ago, Thanatos said:

2b. Could this be how Kelsier leaves Scadrial with Hoid in era 4? His SS (Spritual Self) combines with his CS that now has a body.

With Hoid? That'd be a sight.

His Spiritual aspect should already be joined to his Cognitive aspect, when he holds Preservation he just lacks a Connection to the physical.

14 hours ago, Thanatos said:

2c. Would that fully join the Kelsier's or would he be like Shallan?

Question is based on false premises.

14 hours ago, Thanatos said:

3. Is Hoid a CS stapled to a body, of his creation or not.

As far as we know, nope.

8 hours ago, Thanatos said:

1. Doesnt the CS in Mistborn get 'pulled' to the Beyond? TLR, Ati, Vin, etc etc. 

The post-mortem being is pulled Beyond, but no Investiture leaves the cosmere.

A Cognitive Shadow is not simply that being, but the Cognitive and Spiritual aspects being Invested to persist (or make an "impression" that thinks it's the person those aspects belonged to.)

Kelsier, for instance isn't a Cognitive Shadow until he reaches the Well.

8 hours ago, Thanatos said:

2. After death, my understanding is the body stays in the PR, the CS goes to the beyong and the soul (identity) goes to the SR. Correct me if im wrong.

Body stays, awareness gets pulled beyond, the Investiture returns to the cosmere.

The soul, or Spiritweb, is your Identity, Connection, Investiture and possibly other things.

We can see that CS Kelsier must have a Spiritweb still, as he can't leave Scadrial.

8 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Another CS thought, can you copy CS's?

That's an interesting question, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to, technically, though I have no idea by what means.

8 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Could Mraize be copy of Kelsier's CS, with Scadrial's/Harmony's identity wiped? Stapled to anothers body? 

Ehhhhh?

I don't see what the Identity connection is, especially to Harmony.

I'd assume that unless the Kelsier identity was wiped he'd still act like Kelsier, which he doesn't really.

There's also a couple WoBs:

Quote

Khyrindor

So, I was hoping to get a confirmation on Mraize's age?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd probably-- Well, what did I say before?

Khyrindor

Not sure, I was just asking the question.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay good, I didn't think that I had confirmed this. I'm going to RAFO it.

Khyrindor

Like, is he older than a normal person?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO it, yeah. Let's say though, that, though he has been off-world, he himself is a Rosharan.

Khyrindor

A Roshar native?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Quote

CephandriusTW

What would Mraize answer, since he doesn't lie, if someone asked him "Where are you from"?

Brandon Sanderson

Mraize would truthfully say he was born on Roshar.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)

And I think that both "born" and "a Roshar native" might preclude him being a Scadrian Cognitive Shadow 2.0.

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

So if the CS (fake soul) is destined for the Beyond, but some are able to stay due to high levels of investiture, then there is a possibility they can extract their Spiritweb from the SR. 

I've already touched on this, but there should not be a possibility of the Spiritweb being separate from the Cognitive Shadow.

Whether or not a Cognitive Shadow is even fake isn't something that's inteneded to be known, but I'd say it could work one of two ways, the actual person, the self if you will, is pulled Beyond, the Investiture making up their Cognitive and Spiritual disperses but new Investiture is pushed in and takes the "shape" of the person's mind and soul, leaving an autonomous entity that is made in the image of the person, thinks and acts like the person, etc., but isnt the person.

Or it could work like this; the person starts being pulled Beyond and the Cognitive and Spiritual start to diffuse, but an infusion of Investiture stabilises and anchors them to the cosmere, preventing them from being pulled Beyond automatically, leaving the original self, just with their native Investiture replaced by Investiture from a different source.

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

Wondering how Kelsier gets off the Scadrian system in era 4.

We don't actually know he'll manage, do we?

Though if he does I'd bet on Connection shenanigans.

 

 

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Edited September 5, 2021 by Inquisitor #5

[Thanatos]

Inquisitor #5,

Lol ur all over the place dude. Contradictions ahoy. Lol

[Inquisitor #5]

3 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Inquisitor #5,

Lol ur all over the place dude. Contradictions ahoy. Lol

Beyond one (now edited) contradiction, I'm not sure what you mean.

As far as I know everything in my post is internally consistent, barring either/or situations.

Feel free to point out what seems contradictory.

 

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