Iriali, The One, and the Long Trail

[deepspace21]

So...people on Roshar are weird. Herdazian's and Horneater's have hardened cartilage, Natan's are literally blue, and you can tell someone's genealogy from the colors of their hair. We know that there are multiple people with listener blood, which explains the Herdazians and Horneater's oddness. The Natan's and Babath are part Aimian, which accounts for the blueness. Only one truly odd thing remains unexplained: The Iriali. here's what we know about the origin of these Golden boys, Directly copied from the Coppermind: 

Quote

 

The Iriali are not native to Roshar.

They believe that they are part of something they call the "Long Trail", of which they are currently in the Fourth Land

They have had what most would consider to be inhuman ancestry in their past, depending on what is considered human

The Iriali worship a god they call "The One". According to this belief, the One knew everything but had experienced nothing. And so the One became Many in order to experience all things. As each experience is different, it brings completeness to the One. Eventually, all will be gathered back in when the sum of land is attained and they will once again become One.

The Iriali religion may involve fortune-telling with ocean waves, as a member of the Iriali court is the court tidereader. A spanreed meeting between the Iriali queen and Dalinar was moved up because of something seen in the waves.^[4]

The philosophy behind the One is that the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond are the same thing. When a person dies, their soul rejoins the Investiture of the Spiritual Realm. Most cosmere philosophers disagree with this belief.^[14]

The Iriali will have a role to play during the space age of the cosmere.^[17]

 

So from these notes, a few things seem clear to me. The seventh land will most likely be reached by the space age, and I believe the journey to the fifth land will begin at the end of Stormlight 5 or 10, or perhaps they mysteriously dissapear during the time skip between 5 and 6. (this is all speculation. I simply think these would be the best times for Brandon to signal that the Iriali are moving on to people following their story.)

Now one of the most interesting facts of the Iriali is the fact that their non human nature is a possiple mater of debate. "Depending on what is considered human" 

I think the One is a Shard, and all of the Iriali are Splinters.

This shard, who i will tentativly name curiosity for the sake of clerity, "Knew everything but expirienced nothing" Due to existing in the spiritual realm. it split its investiture into the Iriali, which is why they believe that when they die, their soul rejoins the investiture of the spiritiual realm, because their souls do. This also could explain tidereading. Since the Iriali are splinters some might retain the abiiity to see the future to a degree. 

Curiosity split all of its investiture up amoung the Iriali, allowing them to Tideread and possibly travel the in the cognative realm. Its Cognative aspect was also devided among them, leaving teh shard undetectable by other shards, such as Odium. I think the Metalic gold of the Iriali is akin to Curiosities god metal, or something related to how Curiosity's investiture manifests as a solid. the people in RIra are the result of these physical manifestations being passed on to humans, and i dont think they are part of the One. 

There is another Part of this Theory. There Is a reacuring patern in the Cosmere of Shards having a specific number (Honor: 10, Edowment: 5 Preservation: 16) that reacurs often in their spheres of influence. I believe Curiosity is number 7, as this is the first time we have seen this number have major significance. We also hear about the Pact of seven peaks, but I do not think this is related. It is possible the Pact was with curiosity, and is some kind of signal for the Iriali to move on to a new land, but i think this is unlikely.

What do you think? am I missing something, or do you think there is some other cause?

 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

32 minutes ago, deepspace21 said:

There Is a reacuring patern in the Cosmere of Shards having a specific number (Honor: 10, Edowment: 5 Preservation: 16) that reacurs often in their spheres of influence.

Worth noting that this is not universal. In my opinion, it's actually planet-based (Ruin and Preservation's magics are both sixteen-based, as is their hybrid, and the Rosharan system outside of Braize is all ten-based) and perhaps perception-based (Rosharans believe in ten Surges, but the inhabitants of Braize, the Fused, only believe in nine), as opposed to Shard-based, but that's just how I view it and is not confirmed afaik.

34 minutes ago, deepspace21 said:

What do you think? am I missing something, or do you think there is some other cause?

Theory's definitely interesting, and I could see it. Something weird is up with them, at any rate.

[deepspace21]

Cool! I wasn't aware of that wob. Honestly, the number thing was what first set off flags but as I looked into it I found more evidence. I think Planets actually makes more sense, but the entire numbered thing feels like it might be something for us to find out about more in Dragonsteel.

[Halyo_Alex]

I do like the idea of the Iriali being more invested than average because of shardic intervention, and I would certainly enjoy it being due to an entire Shard splintering itself and scattering its Investiture across the entire people. Feels kinda like Endowment but taken to its functional limit, where there is no longer a central shard giving handouts, and the shard IS the handouts now, passed down through generations of Iriali.

Tidereading could be a fun minor arcana involving futuresight, but I feel like that might just be a Roshar/frequency thing, waves, yknow. A clever application of the meaning of "wave" in english, where we call both Light and water oscillations 'waves".

[deepspace21]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Tidereading could be a fun minor arcana involving futuresight, but I feel like that might just be a Roshar/frequency thing, waves, yknow. A clever application of the meaning of "wave" in english, where we call both Light and water oscillations 'waves".

I didn't catch that at first, but I do like it. Perhaps its the way this shards investiture in the Iriali interacts with Roshar

[ScadrianTank]

That's a cool theory but may just as well apply to Adonalsium, especially since the followers of the One seem to apply their philosophy/religion to non-Irialy people

 

[deepspace21]

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

That's a cool theory but may just as well apply to Adonalsium, especially since the followers of the One seem to apply their philosophy/religion to non-Irialy people

 

I think Ym specifically says the Iriali are on the long trail. I don't believe there are any other followers of the Iri philosophy that contradicts this.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

That's a cool theory but may just as well apply to Adonalsium, especially since the followers of the One seem to apply their philosophy/religion to non-Irialy people

 

WoB is that it's partially based on the Shattering, but other more recent events were more influential.

Quote

Questioner

Is the Iri religion based on knowledge of the [Shattering], anything like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of, yes.

Questioner

But they don't know it?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't know it, yeah. I would say yes, there are echoes of it. There are more recent events that they don't even quite remember that are more influential.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[ScadrianTank]

7 hours ago, deepspace21 said:

I think Ym specifically says the Iriali are on the long trail. I don't believe there are any other followers of the Iri philosophy that contradicts this.

And Ym specifically tried to teach the boy this religion. If Iri were the only splinters of the One in the cosmere, surely the Shard of Curiosity wouldn't care what other people experienced - since they can't go back to him.

 

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

WoB is that it's partially based on the Shattering, but other more recent events were more influential.

I can interpret it as Adonalsium also wanted to experience death, or being closer to his creations via the vessels, so they allowed themselves to die. This read would be weird but not outside of the realm of possibility. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by ScadrianTank

[Fezzik]

I always thought the Iriali were decendants of human/dragon hybrids, since we know dragons can take human form. That would handily explain the metallic gold hair about as well as human/listener hybrids producing weird fingernails.

[deepspace21]

11 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

And Ym specifically tried to teach the boy this religion. If Iri were the only splinters of the One in the cosmere, surely the Shard of Curiosity wouldn't care what other people experienced - since they can't go back to him.

 

The Boy is also Iriali. 

[ScadrianTank]

1 hour ago, deepspace21 said:

The Boy is also Iriali. 

I stand corrected.

[Halyo_Alex]

4 hours ago, Fezzik said:

I always thought the Iriali were decendants of human/dragon hybrids, since we know dragons can take human form. That would handily explain the metallic gold hair about as well as human/listener hybrids producing weird fingernails.

Dang, now you've got me thinking about listener/dragon hybrids.

I mean, both of them can change shape, no?

I wonder if that would produce metal carapace- Wait.

WAIT.

No, no no no. El's metal plates aren't natural... Or do they just seem that way because who in their right mind would think that metal carapace is natural for a Singer??

No no no this is crazy shut up me this is dumb.

But...

[deepspace21]

7 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Dang, now you've got me thinking about listener/dragon hybrids.

Yes. The fact that we know so little about dragons makes them even cooler!

[Zoey]

I thought that Irali were related to Idris and the Royal Locks and such, at least in some manner. Due to Golden hair, along with this "The Iriali also paint their skin with colors and patterns", which fits with the importance of colour on Nalthis. 

Along with this, 

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The Iriali worship a god they call "The One". According to this belief, the One knew everything but had experienced nothing. And so the One became Many in order to experience all things. As each experience is different, it brings completeness to the One. Eventually, all will be gathered back in when the sum of land is attained and they will once again become One. Every person is a different mind of a single being experiencing different lives. As Many, they need ignorance. Each fragment of the One’s mind has its own body with different passions and inclinations. They exist in variety to experience all kinds of thought. That means some people must know and others must not. Just like some people must be rich and others poor.

This sounds very similar to the Breaths given by Endowment, and how when one dies the Breath returns to Endowment. 

Returned also are resurrected to change their future and experience a different path. Which further fits with the idea of the One wanting to experience everything. 

[ElMonoEstupendo]

Honestly, I thought the One was either the reader or Brandon. One mind, peeking through many lives? Knowing everything, but experiencing nothing speaks to me of an author with a plan who hasn't started writing yet.

The Long Trail would be the epic series he may (someday) complete. The Fourth Land even lines up with publication order: Sel -> Scadrial -> Nalthis -> Roshar.

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2021-08-30 at 7:28 PM, deepspace21 said:

The seventh land will most likely be reached by the space age

I'm not sure I'm willing to ascribe actual importance to the Seventh Land.

On 2021-08-30 at 7:28 PM, deepspace21 said:

I believe the journey to the fifth land will begin at the end of Stormlight 5 or 10, or perhaps they mysteriously dissapear during the time skip between 5 and 6.

By what mechanism?

Why would they leave?

Why would they think they could leave?

It feels implausible to me that they'd just up and leave to go to some other planet when we've gotten no hints that they're hoarding provisions, finishing up their business and such, as you'd presumably do if you were gonna leave.

On 2021-08-30 at 7:28 PM, deepspace21 said:

Now one of the most interesting facts of the Iriali is the fact that their non human nature is a possiple mater of debate. "Depending on what is considered human" 

It might be similar to Veden people having Unkalaki ancestry.

The metallic makes me think dragon, so possibly (partial) descendants of stable human-dragon crossbreeds. Human just like the Unkalaki and Herdazians, but not 100% human genetic stock.

On 2021-08-30 at 7:28 PM, deepspace21 said:

I think the One is a Shard, and all of the Iriali are Splinters.

I'm inclined to think Adonalsium, but someone already brought up a WoB that makes it clear that it's not a direct basis.

I'm curious how they could be Splinters, mechanically, unless they functionally have Breaths.

On 2021-09-01 at 6:25 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

No, no no no. El's metal plates aren't natural... Or do they just seem that way because who in their right mind would think that metal carapace is natural for a Singer??

I'm assuming that other Fused have seen El incarnate on multiple occasions, if Lezian says that he rips out his carapace and replaces it, I'm inclined to believe him.

I read El's whole deal as a compulsive behaviour, unhealthy fascination/obsession with humans (mirroring the Plate that traditionally only humans had) or both. Or something like that.

On 2021-09-03 at 9:37 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Honestly, I thought the One was either the reader or Brandon

I find that very hard to believe, at least as the basis for the Long Trail and the One in universe.

 

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[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm assuming that other Fused have seen El incarnate on multiple occasions, if Lezian says that he rips out his carapace and replaces it, I'm inclined to believe him.

I read El's whole deal as a compulsive behaviour, unhealthy fascination/obsession with humans (mirroring the Plate that traditionally only humans had) or both. Or something like that.

Yeah, you're probably right. That's what I thought at first too, basically.

[Brgst13]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm assuming that other Fused have seen El incarnate on multiple occasions, if Lezian says that he rips out his carapace and replaces it, I'm inclined to believe him.

I read El's whole deal as a compulsive behaviour, unhealthy fascination/obsession with humans (mirroring the Plate that traditionally only humans had) or both. Or something like that.

I had assumed that the inclusions were aluminum, explaining why he could not hear the Rhythms.  This would give him protection against Shardblades and Surgebinding.  Although probably not against Nightblood.

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

I had assumed that the inclusions were aluminum, explaining why he could not hear the Rhythms.  This would give him protection against Shardblades and Surgebinding.  Although probably not against Nightblood.

Actually, Nightblood's sheath is Aluminum, and we've seen a Fused block him using it at the battle of Thaylen Field. So yes, it would protect El from Nightblood.

[Brgst13]

You have a point there, I had forgotten the Thaylen City battle.

[deepspace21]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm not sure I'm willing to ascribe actual importance to the Seventh Land

I feel like if anything will become of the Iriali it will be at the Seventh land unless Brandon wants to be intentionally chaotic with their storyline and kill off the Iriali before they reach the seventh land to establish stakes or something. the likelihood of something like this happening isn't really calculatable, so going off of what we know the only reasonable conclusion for the Iriali is the seventh land. IDK how they would leave, perhaps if they are splinters (Which I do imagine acting like the Nalthiens but without the ability to transfer breath) Then they have some portable perpendicularity ritual. Idk but I'm interested in following them.

[Inquisitor #5]

4 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

I had assumed that the inclusions were aluminum, explaining why he could not hear the Rhythms.

From the way it's phrased, that El is forbidden rhythms, I'd assume that it's sort of the flipside of what we see with Raboniel. Raboniel seemingly having been granted personal rhythms, or at least ones that Venli can't attune even in envoyform, and El having his stripped along with his title.

Possibly as a sort of "oh, you think humans are so great? See how you like living without rhythms like a human!"

Quote

"We didn't want to wait," El said softly, still facing away from the Pursuer. No rhythms. El was forbidden rhythms.

Rhythm of War, chapter 116

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Raboniel smiled and hummed softly another rhythm that Venli had never heard. Something brand new. Something incredible. Dark, dangerous, predatory, and beautiful. It implied destruction, but a quiet and deadly destruction.

Odium had granted this femalen her own rhythms.

Rhythm of War, chapter 41

I also think it unlikely that the metal is aluminium, as that would inhibit magical healing.

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The figure had twisting horns on his head and carapace that reflected the light wrong. He always ripped off his natural carapace formations at each rebirth, then replaced them with metal inclusions. They were incorporated into his body by Voidlight healing and his own special talents.

Rhythm of War, chapter 116

Now, I will note that it's weird that he's even able to make his body heal around the metal, rather than regenerating his carapace and pushing the metal out.

It's of course possible that his "special talents" lets him mess with what is and isn't considered a part of his body, but that interpretation entirely precludes the inclusions being aluminium, as they should be affected by this power.

4 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

This would give him protection against Shardblades and Surgebinding.

 

3 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Actually, Nightblood's sheath is Aluminum, and we've seen a Fused block him using it at the battle of Thaylen Field. So yes, it would protect El from Nightblood.

Excepting any exposed fleshy bits of course, though as seen when Kaladin jumps into Adolin's duel, even partial Shardblade insurance is very good to have.

I'm also perfectly willing to agree that, whatever metal it is, it might do something funky, as Rhythm of War, IMO, strongly hints that (certain) metal plus investiture will just Do Stuff(TM)

 

 

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Edited September 5, 2021 by Inquisitor #5
Spelling

[Brgst13]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

From the way it's phrased, that El is forbidden rhythms, I'd assume that it's sort of the flipside of what we see with Raboniel. Raboniel seemingly having been granted personal rhythms, or at least ones that Venli can't attune even in envoyform, and El having his stripped along with his title.

Possibly as a sort of "oh, you think humans are so great? See how you like living without rhythms like a human!"

I can see this interpretation, but I interpreted this as El losing access to the rhythms upon becoming He Who Quiets.  We only have Lerian's word that El was forbidden the rhythms.  My thought was that he was given abilities from Odium that allowed the inclusion of aluminum and he lost the rhythm as a result.

Also, it is unlikely Odium would be able to grant Raboniel "personal" rhythms as the rhythms are intrinsic to Roshar.  I suppose that it is possible that Odium has restricted access to some Rhythms from all Regals and Fused, but I do not see a reason for that.

The other possibility is that Odium allowed her to hear Rhythms from another planet but again, why?

[Halyo_Alex]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm also perfectly willing to agree that, whatever metal it is, it might do something funky, as Rhythm of War, IMO, strongly hints that (certain) metal plus investiture will just Do Stuff(TM)

Quote

Questioner

Could Nightblood theoretically be turned into a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson

The problem with that is that Nightblood is already invested, so it depends on your version of ' Hemalurgic spikes'. Piercing someone's body with Invested metal can have weird effects all through the Cosmere, but ripping off a piece of a person's soul using an un-Invested spike to Invest it and create one is different... we're talking about two different things, right. So there's the.... so what is a Hemalurgic spike? For instance if you've got a spike that's Invested and you stick it into a Kandra on Scadrial it will still work as an Invested Hemalurgic spike. Making a new Invested spike by ripping off a person's soul, that's a different process and a little more difficult to accomplish and requires some specialized knowledge.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

Emphasis mine, so yes you're right, it may be something like that or like a fabrial cage. Either or.

Maybe the metal plates work with his gemheart to have an effect like a fabrial cage.