How could Odium be so stupid?

[Argus the Awful]

I’ve been wondering since the first time I read the book, why would Odium want to kill The Pursuer? He had lost his mind and his honor but  at least he was still a functional asset to the war effort. El could’ve tested the blade on a completely insane fused that couldn’t do anything for them. The pursuer would still constantly tire Kaladin and attack him out of the blue. This was probably already discussed but I just want to know a good reason.

[Frustration]

Brandon wanted him dead.

That's the only reason I can think of

[Bejarden]

He was a liability, the Pursuer would no longer follow instructions and could mess up a plan that TOdium would put in place; for example harming the Champion before the duel started 

[MasterGhandalf]

Quote

He was a liability, the Pursuer would no longer follow instructions and could mess up a plan that TOdium would put in place; for example harming the Champion before the duel started 

 

Yeah, I'm going to have to second this. Having just finished a reread of RoW, Raboniel was already complaining that Lezian was following his vengeance to the exclusion of strategy and common sense, and it's repeatedly stated that through their long lives and repeated resurrections, both Fused and Heralds are becoming more like spren than people (ie, driven by ideas and archetypes more than mundane concerns). Considering Lezian just got killed and resurrected again, which has a negative effect on the Fused's sanity, and then add in his humiliation at Kaladin's hands... yeah, I'm figuring Odium (whether Rayse or Taravangian - do we know for sure if T had Ascended yet when the kill order went down?) decided he was a liability and his skill as a warrior wasn't worth putting up with the risk of him going off the rails, and it was best to just cut their losses and get some use out of him, even if it was as a test subject. 

[Argus the Awful]

Thank you, I just couldn’t think of any logical reason to kill an asset that would help the war effort. I didn’t think about how he was a liability.

[Aspiring Writer]

3 hours ago, MasterGhandalf said:

(whether Rayse or Taravangian - do we know for sure if T had Ascended yet when the kill order went down?)

Pretty sure they refer to Odium as their new god or something similar, something that infers that it's now Todium, and I read somewhere that the reason for the test was to see if Todium's god metal still worked the same.

[earthexile]

I wonder whether Odium is even aware of the whole anti-Light concept at all. If Light is the distillation of a Shard's essence into material form, maybe their anti-Light would be invisible and unknowable to them. A hole in the universe where their essence does not flow.

[Kered]

On 8/23/2021 at 0:15 AM, Aspiring Writer said:

Pretty sure they refer to Odium as their new god or something similar, something that infers that it's now Todium, and I read somewhere that the reason for the test was to see if Todium's god metal still worked the same.

“We didn’t want to wait,” El said softly, still facing away from the Pursuer. No rhythms. El was forbidden rhythms. “So we had it done the old way. The way before the storms.”

“I thought Odium wasn’t doing that any longer.”

“Our new god made an exception, Defeated One.”

 

 

 

I think it's a combo of the narrative reason of Brandon wanting to conclude a one book, minor villain and the the in-world reason of Todium wanting to salvage at least something from Rodiums strategic loss. 

 

[Aspiring Writer]

10 minutes ago, Kered said:

I think it's a combo of the narrative reason of Brandon wanting to conclude a one book, minor villain and the the in-world reason of Todium wanting to salvage at least something from Rodiums strategic loss. 

... yes, most things are a combo or the narrative/meta reason of the writer and the in-world one. That is how it works.

[mathiau]

On 23/08/2021 at 3:00 AM, MasterGhandalf said:

Yeah, I'm going to have to second this. Having just finished a reread of RoW, Raboniel was already complaining that Lezian was following his vengeance to the exclusion of strategy and common sense, and it's repeatedly stated that through their long lives and repeated resurrections, both Fused and Heralds are becoming more like spren than people (ie, driven by ideas and archetypes more than mundane concerns). Considering Lezian just got killed and resurrected again, which has a negative effect on the Fused's sanity, and then add in his humiliation at Kaladin's hands... yeah, I'm figuring Odium (whether Rayse or Taravangian - do we know for sure if T had Ascended yet when the kill order went down?) decided he was a liability and his skill as a warrior wasn't worth putting up with the risk of him going off the rails, and it was best to just cut their losses and get some use out of him, even if it was as a test subject. 

Add to this that if Kal had become Dalinar's champion it would basically had been the only way for Odium to stop Lezian from breaking the contract and letting Cultivation splinter it.

[ElMonoEstupendo]

On 22/08/2021 at 5:04 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

He was a liability, the Pursuer would no longer follow instructions and could mess up a plan that TOdium would put in place; for example harming the Champion before the duel started 

100% this. He'd already messed everything up, by awakening Kaladin from his depressive catatonia. All he had to do was keep it in his pants for a few more minutes - instead he undid Vyre's effective work. He was worse than the totally-nuts Fused, because he's running around actively kicking over sandcastles.

[WandererNearby]

Plus, Lezian was a very well known Fused so him being defeated by Kal probably was a big morale hit to the Fused and killing him would send a widespread message that things are different now. Lezian was known to follow his passion even when it hurt the war effort and Todium has just made it very clear that he won't put up with that. I think it was mainly Odium's way of telling everyone that there is a new sheriff in town. 

[+robardin]

20 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

Plus, Lezian was a very well known Fused so him being defeated by Kal probably was a big morale hit to the Fused and killing him would send a widespread message that things are different now. Lezian was known to follow his passion even when it hurt the war effort and Todium has just made it very clear that he won't put up with that. I think it was mainly Odium's way of telling everyone that there is a new sheriff in town. 

Good observation!

What I wondered about in that final scene was how come T-O had not given El back his Connection to the rhythms. Is that loss permanent? Raboniel seemed to think it was an indicator of her soul being "nearly all burned away", that it meant future rebirths would have her be insane.

I mean, being given one of the first anti-Voidlight daggers ever is a huge mark of favor, and from his Musings of El we can see that Taravangian's newly divine butt is as polished as a candy apple on a teacher's desk on the first day of school from all of his kissing:

Quote

I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring insist they should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed. ... 

And so I am not at all dissatisfied with recent events. Roshar will be united in its service of the greater war. And I will march proudly at the head of a human legion. ...

Yes, I look forward to ruling the humans. Nearly as much as I look forward to serving you, newest Odium. Who was so recently one of them. You understand. And you are the one I’ve been waiting to worship.

So inasmuch as The Defeated One had become a liability as a "sapient spren of violent vengeance" with the powers of a Fused, is El one step away from something similar, but still useful to Odium? A "high-functioning sociopath", to steal a line from Sherlock?

[mathiau]

On 04/09/2021 at 1:20 PM, robardin said:

So inasmuch as The Defeated One had become a liability as a "sapient spren of violent vengeance" with the powers of a Fused, is El one step away from something similar, but still useful to Odium? A "high-functioning sociopath", to steal a line from Sherlock?

Well, Taravangian's endgame definitely doesn't involve the Singers ruling over the human, that's for sure.

[apepi]

I see it paralleling the part Odium has failed too much thing as part of the Pursuer failing too much. He wasn't scary at the end. It is more a writing narrative decision, than a logical one.

[Josi]

On 8/22/2021 at 8:00 PM, MasterGhandalf said:

Yeah, I'm going to have to second this. Having just finished a reread of RoW, Raboniel was already complaining that Lezian was following his vengeance to the exclusion of strategy and common sense, and it's repeatedly stated that through their long lives and repeated resurrections, both Fused and Heralds are becoming more like spren than people (ie, driven by ideas and archetypes more than mundane concerns). Considering Lezian just got killed and resurrected again, which has a negative effect on the Fused's sanity, and then add in his humiliation at Kaladin's hands... yeah, I'm figuring Odium (whether Rayse or Taravangian - do we know for sure if T had Ascended yet when the kill order went down?) decided he was a liability and his skill as a warrior wasn't worth putting up with the risk of him going off the rails, and it was best to just cut their losses and get some use out of him, even if it was as a test subject. 

I entirely agree! I also think that the Pursuer's defeats could generate discontent among the Voidbringers, which I believe helped bring Leshwi over (along with Venli bonding a spren). 

[Legui01010]

On 9/3/2021 at 11:44 AM, DougTheRug said:

Plus, Lezian was a very well known Fused so him being defeated by Kal probably was a big morale hit to the Fused and killing him would send a widespread message that things are different now. Lezian was known to follow his passion even when it hurt the war effort and Todium has just made it very clear that he won't put up with that. I think it was mainly Odium's way of telling everyone that there is a new sheriff in town. 

Absolutely good point.

 

2 hours ago, Nadezhda al'Lanahrin said:

I entirely agree! I also think that the Pursuer's defeats could generate discontent among the Voidbringers, which I believe helped bring Leshwi over (along with Venli bonding a spren). 

I'm inclined to believe that Lewshi never wanted to be with the Voidbringers. Her ideals and manners, her honor after each battle she had with Kaladin, and her troops as well, they are pretty much on par with the Windrunners. The thing that pretty much, at least for me, made her choose a new side, was that the Singers were being chosen to be Radiants

Edited September 10, 2021 by Legui01010

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, apepi said:

He wasn't scary at the end.

He wasn't scary at the begining either.

[+robardin]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He wasn't scary at the begining either.

Well, at first he was. A new kind of Fused who could teleport (the Voidish equivalent of the Surge of Transportation, evidently) combined with a physically huge body, built-in deadly weapons in his carapace, and representing a warrior with thousands of years of experience in killing Radiants (especially Windrunners), that's pretty scary in concept.

But he was a monologuing braggart from the very first time we see him in RoW, even comically so, which subtracted from his perceived threat as a reader, and only kind of annoyed instead of terrified Kaladin in-world.

The thing is, if Brandon had been serious about writing Lezian the Pursuer as The Ultimate Radiant Killing Fused, he wouldn't have done that. I think all along, writing-wise, Lezian is an example of the Fused "becoming like spren": perhaps in the past, Lezian was more "business-like" and truly terrifying, but he's so unhinged now that he's become a caricature of that.

Even the other Fused like Leshwi and Raboniel roll their eyes about his obsession with "pursuing" and noting that it's gone from being "something he did if he ever got killed" to "something that drives him completely".

Edited September 10, 2021 by robardin

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Well, at first he was. A new kind of Fused who could teleport (the Voidish equivalent of the Surge of Transportation, evidently) combined with a physically huge body, built-in deadly weapons in his carapace, and representing a warrior with thousands of years of experience in killing Radiants (especially Windrunners), that's pretty scary in concept.

There has been one thing in the entire cosmere that has scared me, and only barely and that was the RoW Epilouge.

Everything else has been mild concern at most.

Lezian though, Lezian didn't even raise an eyebrow.

[Dreamwa1ker]

Odium is also the God of Passion and Hatred. So couldn't it also simply be Odium exacting said hatred on Lezian for screwing up his plan to break/turn Kaladin in the moment when he was so close to succeeding?

[+robardin]

21 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Odium is also the God of Passion and Hatred. So couldn't it also simply be Odium exacting said hatred on Lezian for screwing up his plan to break/turn Kaladin in the moment when he was so close to succeeding?

Hmm, this is true. Unlike with Dalinar, who fought his own way out from surrendering to Odium's offer of "taking his pain", Kaladin was shaken out of it in direct contradiction to Odium's command (relayed through Vyre/Moash) to leave him catatonic until he either surrendered or killed himself.

"Don't touch him," Moash said. "If you interfere, it will awaken him to vengeance."

And that's exactly what happened. In fact, when Kaladin went HAM, his eyes glowed not the pale blue of a Windrunner, but a "yellowish-red".

[Josi]

On 9/10/2021 at 0:11 PM, Frustration said:

There has been one thing in the entire cosmere that has scared me, and only barely and that was the RoW Epilouge.

Everything else has been mild concern at most.

Lezian though, Lezian didn't even raise an eyebrow.

Agreed. 

[RAFOmancer]

I don't really think Odium wanted Lezian dead.While he was a bit hard to control,in the end Lezian had done everything just as Odium had planned.El just kind of acted on his own.

Plus ,I just have a feeling Odium doesn't like El.