Benkinsky

Bonding Unmade?

13 posts in this topic

(In case this has been posted or asked before, which I wouldn't be surprised by, please redirect me to that threat)

so a friend has recently finished Oathbringer and I ended up saying "imagine if somehow Dalinar bonded Nergaoul", had a chuckle,  and now I'm here.

Do you think it could be possible to bond Unmade? I'll list arguments that I can come up with, would be interested to hear more.

And much more interesting, further down, what could those bonds look like.

 

Con:

- The Process of Unmaking might make this impossible by itself, even if it was possible before, whatever the Unmade were before. This might be why the Sibling was so afraid of being Unmade. That could also be because they were afraid that even after "death" they might have to bond someone again.

- The Unmade have differing levels of Intelligence/Sapience. Like most Spren, some of the Unmade are more like animals or not even that, just personified forces, than thinking beings. Maybe the more "intelligent" ones would be able to bond, but something like Ashertmarn would probably make a bond partner as enticing as a Windspren, only with more corruption.

 

Pro:

- The Sibling was afraid of "being unmade". The Sibling was able to bond Navani.

-  Re-Shephir tried to establish some kind of Bond with Shallan. Again, we don't know if this would be a Nahel Bond, the possible Odium-equivalent, or something unique to the Midnight Mother.

- when imprisoning Nergaoul, Dalinar states (which he probably assumes) that it would only be able to be captured by someone who "deeply, sincerely, understands it". On one hand, this would mean that some kind of connection between an Unmade and a Person (using this as an umbrella term for any bond-able species) is atleast possible. Of course, that could also just be something like Blackthorn Dalinar really vibing with the Thrill.

- On the other hand, this would mean that the Lightweaver that once imprisoned Re-Shephir had a sufficient connection/understanding of it. I'm imagining some kind of Lightweaver whose thruths involve something along the lines of "i don't understand people" or "I feel like I'm not part of my species" or some kind of alienating experience that was close enough to Re-Shephirs imitate-to-understand.

- Yelig-Nar. That was definitely some kind of bond, but it seems to have more in common with posession than any kind of mutual agreement. Maybe the "swollow this gemstone to imitate having a Gemheart" tactic could work with other Unmade too.

- Sja-Anat, or the Enlightened Spren. They are able to bond humans and singers. Granted, Enlightening and Unmaking are probably two distinct processes, but probably not dissimilar. If Enlightened Spren can bond people, maybe Spren could too.

 

Speculation on Bonds:

okay, now for the fun part. Let's assume it's possible to bond Unmade, somehow, in a fashion similar to the Nahel Bond, or similar to the Yelig-Nar version aka more close to Forms of Power. Let's get to speculating, I want to hear some crackpot theories. Here are a few of my own:

All unmade: A bond with someone might grant even the "dumb" Unmade more Sapience and Intelligence, especially in the physical realm. It might able be able to save or protect them from the threat of being re-unmade, something especially Sja-Anat could be interested in. Now I'm scared of Sja-Anat bonding a Ghostblood member.

Additionally, the Heavenly Ones have 9 Surges, and there's 9 Unmade. They might also grant you one of the Voidlight Surges.

 

Ashertmarn: Congratulations! If your new spren is capable of spoken thought, you're now on your path to either passionately or under oath pursue hedonistic revel. Any powers? I doubt it. Ashertmarn would just continue doing what it does anyway and make it so you always have party-people around you. Very close to "Passion" in intent I think, so maybe like with Honorspren he might actually have some kind of oaths, or rather convictions that his bondpartner should subscribe to, stuff like "I will live every moment to the fullest" and "I will persue pleasure"
Surge: Cohesion?

Ba-Ado-Mishram: She was able to sustain the false Desolation, so I assume you would be able to do something similar to how Dalinar can now open a Perpendiculary for a bit. Again, BAM wouldn't really need you for that. I'm not surprised the Ghostbloods want to find BAM.
Surge: Gravitation?

Chemoarisch: We know too little here.
Surge: Division, because she's the "Dustmother"?

Dai-Gonarthis: I've read someone say that he's basically already bonded to Moash somehow, which I don't remember anywhere in the book. He definitely is the one taking Moash's sorrow, but I doubt he needs a bond for that. If he does, he's probably a great partner if you plan to go do war crimes and not feel bad about it. Seems like a Bond with the Black Fisher could be similar to a Lightweaver one, only you double down on your bad qualities instead of confronting them.
Source: Abrasion?

Moelach: Future Sight, yay. Glys on Steroids, maybe.
Surge: Illumination, in the same way as Renarin has it?

Nergaoul: We've seen a close approximation of this with the Blackthorn, right? Moelach seems to be on that threshhold of Sapience that he might genuinely profit from a bond, and either him or Ashertmarn are the closest to "Passion", only his convictions would be more like "I will kill" and "I will seek the fight".
Surge: Transportation? Lezian-like, swapping bodies taken by the Thrill?

Re-Shephir: Prime Candidate for a bond. She already tried to get something like that to Shallan. the Midnight Essence might be available to her bondpartner too, she would gain more understanding, which she seems to seek. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one that actually happens on screen somehow. Whether in a gemheart or with a bond or some sort I have no idea. "a creature of instinct that is drawn to violence and pain", as coppermind puts it, puts her, in my opinion, on that important threshhold.
Surge: Tension.

Sja-anat: The other Prime Candidate, right? Enlightened Spren, Renarin, etc... I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of bond is a huge safety measure for her in case Odium tries to re-unmake her. I can't quite imagine what a bond with her would do for someone, but it would surely be interesting. "The taker of Secrets" sounds like someone who might otherwise have been a Lightweaver, Truthwatcher or Elsecaller could be a candidate. What would you say, who would be a scarier potential partner for her? Iyatil, or Jasnah?
Surge: Transformation

Yelig-nar: Well, we've kind of seen this, right? Your own source of Surges AND Voidlight to use them and cool Skin Cristals!
Surge: Progession
 

 

 

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I definitely think it's possible to bond with an Unmade. Even if making a meaningful, radiant-like, capital-C Connection requires a Bondsmith's power rather than just being an innate ability like a Radiant Spren.

As for the ability the Person would gain from the bond, I think it's a safe bet to lean on the side of Voidbinding, given the quote of Voidbinding "usually" originating with the Unmade. Exceptions to that would be stuff like Glys giving Void Illumination, although Yelig-nar definitely seems to be the other kind of exception, but on steroids.

With that in mind... Hmm.

I feel like Ba-Ado-Mishram definitely has access to the same sort of "Bondsmithing powers" that Dalinar has. Not the exact same powers, but the same category, just for Voidlight and stuff instead of Stormlight. Also, the Forms of Power thing is weird. Did she give Singers access to Regal-Spren or just... "Declare" that their Form was one of the forms of power using Connection magic and stuff to "spoof" the Voidspren being in their gemhearts herself? I'm leaning towards the latter option because of her capture in a gemstone causing such damage to the Singers. The capturing ripped her out of them and took pieces with her, leading to Slaveform. Hmm.

I could see Re-Shephir having the Void equivalent of Progression to "grow" Midnight Essence. to Cultivate it, actually.

...Oof, if that's anything close to what Thornspren would be like, that could be absurd...

(context: "Thornlight" is the most common good-sounding name I've heard for Voidlight+Lifelight mixed like how Warlight is, so a hypothetical Thornspren would be a spren specifically made of a blend of Cultivation and Odium, like a "dark" Cultivationspren.)

Sja-Anat having Void Transformation sounds right to me, perhaps her bond-mate would gain the ability to Enlighten lesser spren as long as they had Voidlight on hand to infuse into them, and then use them as spies like Sja-Anat does. "Seeing" in that way does really sound like a Truthwatcher-like thing, and she has so far only Enlightened Mistspren, so there's probably something to that.

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18 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

(context: "Thornlight" is the most common good-sounding name I've heard for Voidlight+Lifelight mixed like how Warlight is, so a hypothetical Thornspren would be a spren specifically made of a blend of Cultivation and Odium, like a "dark" Cultivationspren.)

Cosidering Cultivation alone already encompasses Thorns I have to disagree.

19 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I feel like Ba-Ado-Mishram definitely has access to the same sort of "Bondsmithing powers" that Dalinar has. Not the exact same powers, but the same category, just for Voidlight and stuff instead of Stormlight

I'd be inclined to agree but Brandon has been quite clear the Unmade had no Bondsmith equivelent.

 

Bonding an Unmade in the Radiant sense might be possible, but Big spren aren't always bondable, see Cusichesh.

there is something else required.

 

However, Yelig-nar forms a bond, and likely so do the others, I'm guessing we've seen at least some of the ways they work out

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51 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Sja-Anat having Void Transformation sounds right to me, perhaps her bond-mate would gain the ability to Enlighten lesser spren as long as they had Voidlight on hand to infuse into them, and then use them as spies like Sja-Anat does. "Seeing" in that way does really sound like a Truthwatcher-like thing, and she has so far only Enlightened Mistspren, so there's probably something to that.

oh shoot, I didn't even notice the Mistspren thing, that is very interesting. Maybe in the future we'll see Renarin (maybe in combination with a Bondsmith) or Sja-Anats Bondmate project what Enlightened Spren "see" similar to how Shallan and Dalinar project the Map together

54 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I could see Re-Shephir having the Void equivalent of Progression to "grow" Midnight Essence. to Cultivate it, actually.

that's an interesting thought, I can see that. Would be very interesting. I had thought of the Crystals growing out of Amaram's skin because it seemed to me like that could've been Yelig-Nar "healing" to how he would actually look, but if Yelig-Nar grants all 9 Surges then it has Progression anyway. Re-Shephir being Progression makes a lot of sense too, with the Midnight Essence. Imagine being able to "patch up" someone with Midnight Essence. Or something.

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7 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Maybe in the future we'll see Renarin (maybe in combination with a Bondsmith) or Sja-Anats Bondmate project what Enlightened Spren "see" similar to how Shallan and Dalinar project the Map together

Doesn't Glys show Dalinar one of his visions somewhere in RoW? I think. But it takes effort.

Ohh nevermind I misinterpreted what you meant. Yeah like projecting their PoV like a camera they're carrying on them. I could see that.

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1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Doesn't Glys show Dalinar one of his visions somewhere in RoW? I think. But it takes effort.

Iirc, he replays it for Renarin, and Renarin explains it to Dalinar.

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Questioner

Someone asked you last year if the Unmade could be bonded and you said technically yes. Have we seen any evidence of this, or will we?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhh, you-- Eh-- Not yet, no. It doesn't really happen. Technically it could but it just doesn't really happen.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

I take this to mean he probably doesn’t intend for it to happen, but I may be wrong.

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7 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

Questioner

Someone asked you last year if the Unmade could be bonded and you said technically yes. Have we seen any evidence of this, or will we?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhh, you-- Eh-- Not yet, no. It doesn't really happen. Technically it could but it just doesn't really happen.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

I take this to mean he probably doesn’t intend for it to happen, but I may be wrong.

aaand there it is :D yeah, I agree with you, he probably doesn't plan for this to happen.

Then again, he also didn't plan for W&W to be 4 books, so it might still happen.

The "not yet" is interesting though, i assume that means not in their current state, something would need to happen first. Either that means something would have to happen to Odium or to the Unmade, Remaking them or something.

 

10 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Doesn't Glys show Dalinar one of his visions somewhere in RoW? I think. But it takes effort.

Ohh nevermind I misinterpreted what you meant. Yeah like projecting their PoV like a camera they're carrying on them. I could see that.

exactly :D sounds like an amazing way to get intel

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3 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

The "not yet" is interesting though, i assume that means not in their current state, something would need to happen first.

My guess is that the “not yet” is probably about Yelig-Nar since he needs a host body. I was trying to find this one WoB about how if a person bonded an Unmade it would be analogous to a Bondsmith or something like that, but I couldn’t find it.

Edited by Crucible of Shards
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8 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

The "not yet" is interesting though, i assume that means not in their current state, something would need to happen first. Either that means something would have to happen to Odium or to the Unmade, Remaking them or something.

I took the "not yet" to be saying "you have not seen evidence of this yet", not "it can't happen yet", personally.

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My original Book 4 theory had Shallan bonding Sja-Anat, making her a Double Radiant and a weird sort of mishmash of Dalinar and Renarin (and then Odium's influence would spread to her unborn child, turning said child into the Champion), but that clearly didn't happen. Still, I believe bonding an Unmade is still possible and may even be done onscreen at some point. For now, I have no idea how that'll happen or what it'll be. 

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I could see Sja-Anat bonding a human to kinda spite Odium, but I think other than that small chance we won’t see any bonding unmade happening.

Edited by Argus the Awful
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On 2021-08-22 at 5:24 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

context: "Thornlight" is the most common good-sounding name I've heard for Voidlight+Lifelight mixed like how Warlight is

Oh, neat, other people also say "Thornlight."

On 2021-08-22 at 3:33 PM, Benkinsky said:

Do you think it could be possible to bond Unmade?

In short, yes.

I've been hoping Sja-anat would bond someone since Oathbringer.

My conception has long been that, theoretically, if it goes in a gemheart, it goes in a fabrial, it goes in a bond.

That is, if it has a valid output in any of these three paradigms, it theoretically has a valid output in all of them.

Though I don't think that there's a gemheart large enough to house, say, the Stormfather practically, theoretically a valid result must exist.

Then there's my favourite WoB:

Quote

EHyde

As Lift's spren refers to the Nightwatcher as Mother, right...

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely calls somebody a mother. The implication in the text is that it's the Nightwatcher.

EHyde

Certainly, so I'm just going to run with that right now. So the question that I'm asking is, is surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium, a la feruchemy being in some sense not directly derivative of Ruin and Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

It is...Honor and Cultivation is what you mean?

EHyde

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

There are spren of all three Shards, and those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

EHyde

What Shard are Cryptics associated with?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Which definitely makes it sound valid.

Personally I'd hazard that bonding Unmade would produce Bondsmiths or Bondsmith-adjacents.

On 2021-08-22 at 5:47 PM, Frustration said:

I'd be inclined to agree but Brandon has been quite clear the Unmade had no Bondsmith equivelent.

That is really, really odd, as Connection-shenanigans are definitely a Bondsmith thing.

So, I'm guessing this is the relevant WoB:

Quote

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

Where Brandon even admits it's not perfectly clear-cut.

On 2021-08-22 at 5:47 PM, Frustration said:

Bonding an Unmade in the Radiant sense might be possible, but Big spren aren't always bondable, see Cusichesh.

I personally think that Cusicesh is theoretically bondable, the bond just wouldn't make a member of the Order of Bondsmiths, a bit like bonding a windspren won't make you part of the Order of Windrunners.

In both cases I could see the spren granting the exact same Surges, but not making Radiants, if that makes sense.

On 2021-08-22 at 5:47 PM, Frustration said:

there is something else required.

Relevant WoB:

Quote

Jurble

Are Bondsmith spren created as a matter of intent by Shards or are they 'natural' insofar as any spren made of enough Investiture would create a Bondsmith bond? That is, for example, the Everstorm is clearly a giant mass of Odium's Investiture, if someone were to bond its spren (which is presumably very young and insensate currently), would it form a Bondsmith bond as a matter of (super)natural laws or would Odium have to tweak something on a metaphysical level to allow a Bondsmith bond to form?

Brandon Sanderson

It wouldn't naturally become a Bondsmith spren, as it's not JUST the amount of Investiture that makes one. (For example, there's that odd spren in Iri that has a ton of Investiture, but didn't become a Radiant spren.) To become a Radiant spren requires some different things.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 28, 2020)

From this we learn two things, that a Stormfather counterpart for the Everstorm wouldn't naturally become a Bondsmith spren, and that there are requirements for becoming a Radiant spren.

This makes perfect sense to me, preventing subspren from bonding humans makes sense both in light of Ishar's whole "precepts and laws" thing and Nohadon lamenting that not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren.

Asking Honor to limit exactly what kind of spren can make Surgebinders while codifying the Radiants makes perfect sense.

Even if such Surgebinders wouldn't wield their Surges as powerfully they could be extremely numerous and have far too much freedom, as a subspren would probably be inadequate to judge oaths.

I wouldn't be suprised at all if Radiant spren are an artificial category, being spren allowed to form Radiant bonds, with all the limitations that implies, as opposed to unrestricted bonds.

Bondsmith spren can then be seen as a subcategory of Radiant spren, that is spren whose bonds make Bondsmith Radiants, rather than spren who theoretically make Surgebinders capable of Bondsmithing, the latter being neither Radiant spren nor Bondsmith spren.

On 2021-08-22 at 3:33 PM, Benkinsky said:

This might be why the Sibling was so afraid of being Unmade.

This interpretation has always baffled me somewhat.

The Sibling says

Quote

The Lady of Pains has the Surge of Transformation and dangerous knowledge. She will infuse my entire heart—the pillar—in the proper order, using her Voidlight. In so doing, she would corrupt me and leave me . . . leave me as one of the Unmade. . . .

-Rhythm of War, chapter 42

And this might just be a semantic quibble, but I've interpreted this as "I will be like one of the Unmade" not "I will be one of the Unmade."

I've never gotten the impression that the Sibling would become a tenth Unmade, so I don't see the process they're put through as Unmaking.

On 2021-08-22 at 3:33 PM, Benkinsky said:

Let's assume it's possible to bond Unmade, somehow, in a fashion similar to the Nahel Bond, or similar to the Yelig-Nar version aka more close to Forms of Power.

The entire section following this is quite interesting, as though I've wanted to see Unmade bonded since Oathbringer, I've always assumed the product goes in the Bondsmith slot, "Voidsmith" if you will.

But seeing how several of the Unmade have powers that line up with the Surges and Radiant spren (and their cousin spren) have some command of the Surges they grant, the bondmates of Unmade might well exhibit powers based on the respective Unmade.

All that in mind, let's theorise. :D

Unmade in general: If powers line up with the respective Unmade, possibly Surge/Voidbinders of the non-Bondsmith orders/analogues, at roughly Bondsmith power level, probably have the Bondsmith drawback of no Blade.

Mishram: Shoo-in for Bondsmith/Voidsmith, supplies Light, does Connection stuff, seems very Bondsmith-y, assuming that the Surge pair pattern holds, possibly Windrunner analougue, though Bondsmith seems a better fit, assuming one order per Unmade

Yelig-nar: Windrunner analogue, has the theme with Blightwind, personal theory that his manipulation of all Surges is in fact an application of Adhesion allowing manipulation of other Surges similar to what's seen in Bondsmiths, could possibly allow bondmate to act as a super empowerer granting others the use of Surges temporarily, also works as a nice paralell to Windrunner Squires

Sja-anat: Elsecaller analogue, Surge of Transformation, simultaneous presence in both Cognitive and Physical fits thematically, neat interactions unclear, turbo-Jasnah terrifying

Re-Shephir: clear Lightweaver analogue, described as being like a creationspren but very wrong, creationspren being the cousinspren of Cryptics lines up, makes something like illusions with mass, fits thematically, would presumably fight like a minion master, possibility of non-life solid holograms also cool, hard-light buildings, armour, instant walls, bridges, all very neat

Moelach: probable Truthwatcher analogue, future-sight, Bondsmith-level Renarin, feasability of bond unclear, oaths may or may not work with non-sapient spren

Nergaoul: possible Edgedancer, Dustbringer, Willshaper or Stoneward analogue, power probably Cognitive manifestation of Cohesion, Progression or Abrasion, bond could possibly allow for selective application of power, sending only enemies into berserker rage, could possibly allow other mental states to be induced as well, such as supreme discipline, focus or will to fight, without the mindless aspect, Cohesion or Progression more likely than Abrasion IMO, mindless Unmade, bond feasability unclear

Ashertmarn: probable Edgedancer or Dustbringer analogue, power likely Cognitive manifestation of Abrasion, essentially mental Slicking, makes it easier for people to give in to their desires, bondmate possible ultra-Breeze, mindless problem

Chemoarish and Dai-Gonarthis: too little information to speculate, fill two of the spots of Willshaper, Stoneward and Skybreaker, assuming Ashertmarn to take the Dustbringer spot and Nergaoul Edgedancer

 

 

¤_¤

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