Eggdogg

Anarchism in the cosmere

75 posts in this topic

On 19.8.2021 at 2:51 PM, mathiau said:

There are customs on Scadrial? I know there are some on Nalthis but I don't remember anything about customs on Scadrial.

Not as a full time organization, but Harmony has servants to whom Harmony wants Hoid to report to when he enters Scadrial the next time.

On 19.8.2021 at 2:51 PM, mathiau said:

He doesn't mandate that Trell must not be worshiped, he mandate that being a part of Trell's rebellion is forbidden.

Well, if you really believe in Trell and Trell calls for rebellion, then what?

On 19.8.2021 at 2:51 PM, mathiau said:

If having a giant mass of investiture in the CR didn't cause time dilation in the PR I'd agree, but it does and I believe having time flow roughly at the same speed in all of the Cosmere is very important to the Era 4 balance of power

Put the corpses onto spasely populated worlds.

On 19.8.2021 at 2:51 PM, mathiau said:

I don't understand this sentence

I'd say that anarchism conflicts with common sense by leaving out a mechanism to maintain itself.

 

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Posted (edited)

On 8/18/2021 at 8:40 AM, Oltux72 said:

They do claim divinity based on verifiable facts though. This question has an extreme likelihood of decaying into semantics.

See the issue with this is it argues based on a measurement of scope. Because X individuals have a Y level of power, they are then considered divinity. But those values are dependent on reference. On perspective. These things are sliding scales. To a baby, mommy and daddy are god. They are able to do incredible and magical things. They are incredibly strong, able to lift the baby effortlessly. They are supremely intelligence, doing incredibly advance computations. Yet when the child reaches adolescence and their teenager years, the mystique diminishes. "Because I said so", no longer satisfies. Questions come. Then when the child is themselves an adult, they realize something very powerful. Their parents were just people like anyone else. Fallible. The parents at the time of the baby had more information, and resources, so seemed divine. Yet they were not in fact. So a person with a match can seem like a god to a neanderthal. A person with a gun can seem like a god to the person with the match. A person with a laser and shield can seem a god to a person with a gun. And you can go on and on and on and on. If power level determined what "divinity" is, then the only thing that gods are, is might makes right. I am divine because I can make you call me that. And to me, that is faulty on many many levels. 

 

edit: For example, lets say I do like Taravangian. I use Nightblood to kill Rayse, and take up the shard of Odium. I then out think every other shard, kill their holder and shatter their shards. I then state "I am the most powerful, and I say there are no gods, there is no divine. I am at the top of the food chain and say it is so". So since I am the most powerful, what I say goes, so gods don't exist. No one can say otherwise. I am the grand poobah. 

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The problem with that is that it turns atheism into a dogma. The absense of gods is no longer falsifiable.

 

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem with that is that it turns atheism into a dogma. The absence of gods is no longer falsifiable.

 

Exactly. Which is why using a metric of power to determine whether or not something is divine is problematic. There will always be a chance that something stronger comes along, or someone else (lesser being) figures out a way to pull the power away, and assert their own authority. Have you ever read the book "All of an Instant"? It illustrates this pretty well. It also goes along side what is occurring in the MCU now. 

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53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, if you really believe in Trell and Trell calls for rebellion, then what?

Do you consider religious freedom should allows the people to kill anyone their god want them to kill?

Quote

Put the corpses onto spasely populated worlds

That might be harder to do than avoiding them to bleed in the CR in the first place, but honestly the main issue is actually that splintered Shards can be reformed

Quote

I'd say that anarchism conflicts with common sense by leaving out a mechanism to maintain itself.

While I don't agree this is true I don't see why you said that quoting me saying it seemed opposite to Adonalsium's explicit commends

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem with that is that it turns atheism into a dogma. The absense of gods is no longer falsifiable.

It... Never was?

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10 hours ago, mathiau said:

Do you consider religious freedom should allows the people to kill anyone their god want them to kill?

No. Do I believe foreigners with allegiances to a hostile power should be free to immigrate? Also no.

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

That might be harder to do than avoiding them to bleed in the CR in the first place, but honestly the main issue is actually that splintered Shards can be reformed

Short of not splintering, in which case they will have to be taken up or become sentient, this is unavoidable isn't it? That looks like chosing a certain immediate danger in order to avoid a lesser potential danger.

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

While I don't agree this is true I don't see why you said that quoting me saying it seemed opposite to Adonalsium's explicit commends

We know next to nothing about his commands. I presume you are referring to the one known Dawnshard. Adonalsium had components whose Intents clash. Drawing conclusions from that do not work. People own drills. That does not justify the conclusion that they want holes in everything. Adonalsium's political attitudes are a mystery. The Dawnshard was merely a tool.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

No. Do I believe foreigners with allegiances to a hostile power should be free to immigrate? Also no.

So do you agree Trellism is not covered by religious freedom?

Quote

Short of not splintering, in which case they will have to be taken up or become sentient, this is unavoidable isn't it? That looks like chosing a certain immediate danger in order to avoid a lesser potential danger.

There might be a possibility to annihilate them with antiinvestiture but that create a host of new problems

Quote

We know next to nothing about his commands. I presume you are referring to the one known Dawnshard. Adonalsium had components whose Intents clash. Drawing conclusions from that do not work. People own drills. That does not justify the conclusion that they want holes in everything. Adonalsium's political attitudes are a mystery. The Dawnshard was merely a tool.

Fair point

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15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem with that is that it turns atheism into a dogma. The absense of gods is no longer falsifiable.

On atheism, we are in a society where the entities worshipped are verifiable but what is contested is whether they're truly divine. The Ghostbloods and the Survivorists would both agree that Kelsier exists, but one would see them as a god and another as a powerful guy in charge. Some people worship the Returned, and others see them as vampires. Horneaters see spren as gods, as do Singers kind of, and Alethi mostly see them as pretty mundane. Presenting evidence to an atheist that a Shard exists (a being that was once human, and can still be killed and captured by humans) still allows for a variety of different conclusions. TBH it would not surprise me if Hoid was an atheist given how low of an opinion he has of the Shards.
 

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, if you really believe in Trell and Trell calls for rebellion, then what?

No secular state in the world contains the codes of the religion as divine law, and some prohibit discrimination on that basis.

It's possible to have freedom of religion, for example, but also ban homophobic, racist or sexist discrimination in the workplace even if a given reading encouraged by a religious denomination encouraged discriminatory attitudes. Just because gay people teach in schools doesn't mean more fundamentalist denominations are being criminalised.

On that line of reasoning it's perfectly reasonable, IMO, for there to be a freedom to worship Trell and a rejection of Trell's followers extinguishing the religious freedoms of others by rebelling on Scadrial. The freedom to worship to Trell, and the freedom to oppress Survivorists or Pathists is not the same thing.

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On 8/19/2021 at 3:59 AM, mathiau said:

So basically Anarchism is contrary to one of Adonalsium's four command?

...How?

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On 8/18/2021 at 5:56 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Or do anarchists have a problem with people being differently strong as well?

You'd need to kill all Vessels and splinter all Shards, somehow.

 

Remind me, what's the definition of insanity?

And splintering Shards requires either a shard or a Dawnshard, though it's technically possible for them to splinter by not having a vessel but that isn't certain.

I roll a dice and exspect different results

3 hours ago, Proletariat said:

No secular state in the world contains the codes of the religion as divine law, and some prohibit discrimination on that basis.

It's possible to have freedom of religion, for example, but also ban homophobic, racist or sexist discrimination in the workplace even if a given reading encouraged by a religious denomination encouraged discriminatory attitudes. Just because gay people teach in schools doesn't mean more fundamentalist denominations are being criminalised.

On that line of reasoning it's perfectly reasonable, IMO, for there to be a freedom to worship Trell and a rejection of Trell's followers extinguishing the religious freedoms of others by rebelling on Scadrial. The freedom to worship to Trell, and the freedom to oppress Survivorists or Pathists is not the same thing.

What you mean to say is that a person's freedom stops when it reaches another individual?

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On 8/21/2021 at 10:26 AM, Frustration said:

What you mean to say is that a person's freedom stops when it reaches another individual?

Absolutely. The constitution recognises the rights to life, liberty, and to pursue happiness. You can't pursue happiness at the expense of anyone else's life, or liberty.

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On 21.8.2021 at 1:33 PM, Proletariat said:

No secular state in the world contains the codes of the religion as divine law, and some prohibit discrimination on that basis.

Yes, but the point is that outside Scadrial you will find few secular states.

On 21.8.2021 at 1:33 PM, Proletariat said:

It's possible to have freedom of religion, for example, but also ban homophobic, racist or sexist discrimination in the workplace even if a given reading encouraged by a religious denomination encouraged discriminatory attitudes. Just because gay people teach in schools doesn't mean more fundamentalist denominations are being criminalised.

Well, the thing is that in the Cosmere, violating a religious law, does not just have consequences in the afterlife. If the Nine want to do something that Odium really does not like, they will cease to be the Nine, or even cease to be, period.

If you want to pass a law on Roshar that the Knights Radiant think incompatible with their oaths, there will be trouble.

 

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

If you want to pass a law on Roshar that the Knights Radiant think incompatible with their oaths, there will be trouble.

At least in the current day, the Radiants really don't seem to have much control there (besides Alethkar, but that's not much of a nation anymore). 

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6 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

At least in the current day, the Radiants really don't seem to have much control there (besides Alethkar, but that's not much of a nation anymore). 

You are referring to the organization that

  • controls the fastest form of international trade
  • has a monopoly on the most effective form of medicine
  • has the only air force under human control
  • has effective intelligence gathering capabilities everywhere
  • has near perfect assassins that can look like anybody
  • has more Shardblades than everybody else together

Yes, they exert as yet little control. For now. Do you really want to cross them?

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On 22/08/2021 at 1:26 AM, Frustration said:

What you mean to say is that a person's freedom stops when it reaches another individual?

Yes. Freedom is something we experience collectively in the positive, and if one person has the right to oppress someone else then there's no inherent value of freedom. People may well be free to worship Trell as part of a principle of freedom of religion, but they are not free to extinguish the freedom of religion for those of other faiths.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but the point is that outside Scadrial you will find few secular states.

Well, the thing is that in the Cosmere, violating a religious law, does not just have consequences in the afterlife. If the Nine want to do something that Odium really does not like, they will cease to be the Nine, or even cease to be, period.

If you want to pass a law on Roshar that the Knights Radiant think incompatible with their oaths, there will be trouble.

 

I'm not sure this is true, but it's actually not the point. It's about the logic behind your premise that there is no freedom of religion if Trell's followers can't perform a violent uprising against Harmony. This clashes with the principles of religious freedoms espoused amongst secular societies as we know it. 

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2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, they exert as yet little control. For now. Do you really want to cross them?

I mean, Dalinar is fundamentally opposed to the very forms of government of several nations in the coalition, but pretty sure they'd tell him to piss off if he tried to say anything. Most of them really don't care for Urithiru butting in their business (and there's nothing requiring Radiants to side with Urithiru over their home nation if it comes to that anyway).

And the Radiants have a prettty diverse set of viewpoints, convincing all the orders that your laws need to be dealt with would be impressive honestly.

Also, I wouldn't count "sovereign nation can go to war with us hypothetically" as "this government is religiously based around the members of said other nation".

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1 hour ago, Proletariat said:

Yes. Freedom is something we experience collectively in the positive, and if one person has the right to oppress someone else then there's no inherent value of freedom. People may well be free to worship Trell as part of a principle of freedom of religion, but they are not free to extinguish the freedom of religion for those of other faiths.

Now you are discussing the ethics. But the point was the practical implications.

1 hour ago, Proletariat said:

I'm not sure this is true, but it's actually not the point. It's about the logic behind your premise that there is no freedom of religion if Trell's followers can't perform a violent uprising against Harmony. This clashes with the principles of religious freedoms espoused amongst secular societies as we know it. 

I have never sad that. To reduce confusion let me again restate what I said.

In the Cosmere the Shards are real and they have real powers and, most importantly, can grant extreme powers to their followers. Just consider the atrocities Paalm managed with a few spikes of trellium. Now from an ethical view point you would say that the people can believe what they want but are obliged to heed the law. But you need to enforce that. And you need to enforce it in a situation where belief can grant arcane powers. Hence I said that the dominant religion can't afford to grant religious freedom due to security reasons. Ethics never came into play.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, Dalinar is fundamentally opposed to the very forms of government of several nations in the coalition, but pretty sure they'd tell him to piss off if he tried to say anything. Most of them really don't care for Urithiru butting in their business (and there's nothing requiring Radiants to side with Urithiru over their home nation if it comes to that anyway).

That is Dalinar personally, not the Bondsmith of the Stormfather. In fact in seeking unity he would find objecting to that contrary to his oaths.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And the Radiants have a prettty diverse set of viewpoints, convincing all the orders that your laws need to be dealt with would be impressive honestly.

Also, I wouldn't count "sovereign nation can go to war with us hypothetically" as "this government is religiously based around the members of said other nation".

Now, I will not give an example of laws currently operative in the Western World which Radiants are likely to find objectionable, lest this degenerate into a match of partisan politics, so you may find the example I will give outdated or contrived.

Suppose a realm on Roshar passes a law that requires people to report fugitive slaves. I hope you can live with that example. I find it reasonable as many countries on Roshar keep slaves.
Edgedancers and possibly Willshapers and Windrunners will find it impossible to heed that law without deadeyeing their Spren. What would Dalinar do then?

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

You are referring to the organization that

  • controls the fastest form of international trade
  • has a monopoly on the most effective form of medicine
  • has the only air force under human control
  • has effective intelligence gathering capabilities everywhere
  • has near perfect assassins that can look like anybody
  • has more Shardblades than everybody else together

Yes, they exert as yet little control. For now. Do you really want to cross them?

You are treating the "organization" and "surgebinders" as one in the same. Kaladin was surgebinding before Dalinar told Amaram to re-found the Knights Radiant. Stump didn't care who Dalinar even was at that point. The "organization" of Knights Radiant led by Dalinar does not have the authority to decide who can or cannot become a surgebinder. Kaladin ordered the honorspren to consider Rlain, but that was because honorspren like structure, and he could have just as easily refused. The rest of the honorspren did in fact refuse. Now could Dalinar theoretically use his bondsmith powers to start forcing bonds? Maybe? But as things stand now, the spren still get to choose. The "organization" still has to request that "surgebinders" join up. Any other country can just as easily have the fastest form of international travel (elsecaller/willshaper), the most effective form of medicine (edgedancer/truthwatcher), an airforce (winderunner/skybreaker), intelligence gatherer (truthwatcher/lightweaver), assassin (lightweaver/truthwatcher), and a shardblade. So the "organization" does not hold a monopoly. They are not even majority shareholders. They just hold the highest concentration in one spot at this time. 

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9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Now you are discussing the ethics. But the point was the practical implications.

I have never sad that. To reduce confusion let me again restate what I said.

In the Cosmere the Shards are real and they have real powers and, most importantly, can grant extreme powers to their followers. Just consider the atrocities Paalm managed with a few spikes of trellium. Now from an ethical view point you would say that the people can believe what they want but are obliged to heed the law. But you need to enforce that. And you need to enforce it in a situation where belief can grant arcane powers. Hence I said that the dominant religion can't afford to grant religious freedom due to security reasons. Ethics never came into play.

That is Dalinar personally, not the Bondsmith of the Stormfather. In fact in seeking unity he would find objecting to that contrary to his oaths.

Now, I will not give an example of laws currently operative in the Western World which Radiants are likely to find objectionable, lest this degenerate into a match of partisan politics, so you may find the example I will give outdated or contrived.

Suppose a realm on Roshar passes a law that requires people to report fugitive slaves. I hope you can live with that example. I find it reasonable as many countries on Roshar keep slaves.
Edgedancers and possibly Willshapers and Windrunners will find it impossible to heed that law without deadeyeing their Spren. What would Dalinar do then?

Again you are treating these individuals with power as pure adherents to the source of that power. For example, if I am born a mistborn, then I have to follow the survivorists. When that is not in fact required. Or if I am born a feruchemist, I have to be a Pathian. Jasnah is an elsecaller, yet she is an atheist. 

Edgedancers are renown for their communication skills. Who is to say edgedancers don't pop up in the country independent of Urithiru? That individuals in the country that were "normal" found that an injustice, bonded an edgedancer spren, and protested it? Or conducted an underground railroad? That is that country's issue, unconnected to Dalinar. He didn't make those individuals surgebinders. But lets say the edgedancers in Urithiru want to do something about it? Send a delegation. Edgedancers acting on a diplomatic mission. 

(can't remember how to combine posts, so sorry for the double post)

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On 2021-08-20 at 8:59 PM, Oltux72 said:

Well, if you really believe in Trell and Trell calls for rebellion, then what?

Then your freedom of religion is in no way abridged by the fact that rebellion is illegal.

Freedom of religion is not a waiver that lets you break the law.

You are free to believe whatever you want, not do whatever you want.

As an example, there are several commandments in the Old Testament that call for the death of an offender. If you tried to enforce those today you'd be tried for some flavour of homicide, but this doesn't mean that Christians and Jews don't enjoy freedom of religion.

 

Do you believe that Catholicism (or any other religion with a head) is incompatible with freedom of religion?

 

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If the Nine want to do something that Odium really does not like, they will cease to be the Nine, or even cease to be, period.

If nobles act against a king they might find themselves robbed of land, title or even life.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If you want to pass a law on Roshar that the Knights Radiant think incompatible with their oaths, there will be trouble.

The Radiants are not inherently a religious organisation.

You mean the same Radiants that can't agree what constitues a good, moral or correct action?

I don't believe legislation would be a problem unless following the law required breaking oath or vice versa.

 

¤_¤

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The way the cosmere is set up is inherently authoritarian; a lot of shards trend auth (Dominion and Honour especially) and both Elantris and Stormlight are set up for a dictatorship of whoever hues closest to a certain type of intent. Investiture in SA also legitimizes the authoritarian caste by conferring literal god like powers on the ruling class.

There are no real anarchists in the Cosmere: Paalm and Kelsier are both revolutionaries but closer to the Blanquist idea than to anarchism, and Kelsier in particular I think is a little bit too fond of his own authority to be an adequate anarchist.

The closest we have to anarchism is the Listeners and Willshapers, but we don’t get a whole lot on Willshaper ideals.

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On 24.08.2021 at 6:38 PM, Pathfinder said:

For example, if I am born a mistborn, then I have to follow the survivorists. When that is not in fact required. Or if I am born a feruchemist, I have to be a Pathian. Jasnah is an elsecaller, yet she is an atheist. 

I don't know if it directly applies to the discussion of freedoms on a national level, but Roshar specifically would benefit from a strong presence of Honor/Cultivation oriented philosophies and religions simply because they increase the pool of potential Radiants. On a larger scale, the dominance or at least a stable presence of Vorinism would most likely encourage the presence of Windrunners, Skybreakers, and maybe Stonewards. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, CamilleDesmoulins said:

The way the cosmere is set up is inherently authoritarian; a lot of shards trend auth (Dominion and Honour especially) and both Elantris and Stormlight are set up for a dictatorship of whoever hues closest to a certain type of intent. Investiture in SA also legitimizes the authoritarian caste by conferring literal god like powers on the ruling class.

There are no real anarchists in the Cosmere: Paalm and Kelsier are both revolutionaries but closer to the Blanquist idea than to anarchism, and Kelsier in particular I think is a little bit too fond of his own authority to be an adequate anarchist.

The closest we have to anarchism is the Listeners and Willshapers, but we don’t get a whole lot on Willshaper ideals.

I have to check for sure, but here are examples of magic users that have nothing to do with their shard's intent (as in, have to act a certain way in order to use the power)

1. mistborn

2. feruchemist

3. misting

4. ferring

5. hemalurgy

6. forgery

7. bloodsealing (potentially. it seemed to have been presented like forgery. It can be trained and depends on living in an area)

8. dakhor (like hemalurgy, you just have to do the ritual to get powers. nothing requires you to be dominiony to have the power)

9. All the knights radiant for two reasons:

    a. spren do not only bond the higher class. they have bonded peasants, thieves, bridgemen, deserters, and etc. 

    b. following the oaths is determinate on how the individual interprets them. The fact that knights of multiple orders can be on either side of the current conflict and still hold to their oaths proves this as well as WoB supporting it. 

10. awakening

11. sand mastery

 

So personally I do not see anything about the magic systems that require those that use it to be authoritarian and have to prescribe to the shard's way of seeing things. The only one I can really think of are elantrians and that is only because we don't fully know how they are chosen. I feel I remember a WoB as well as a mention in the book that being extra devoted doesn't mean you become an elantrian. Just where you live. 

 

5 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I don't know if it directly applies to the discussion of freedoms on a national level, but Roshar specifically would benefit from a strong presence of Honor/Cultivation oriented philosophies and religions simply because they increase the pool of potential Radiants. On a larger scale, the dominance or at least a stable presence of Vorinism would most likely encourage the presence of Windrunners, Skybreakers, and maybe Stonewards. 

So i posted the same time you commented, but I feel a point I made in the above post fields this. Personal perspective and interpretation affects how the oaths are carried out. There is nothing inherently religious connected to Vorinism that I believe applies to windrunner's oaths. The callings mirror some of the ideals, but taken out of context. For instance lightweavers tend to be artistically inclined, but you will not advance in your oaths simply by following the art calling (forgot what it was called, beauty? creativity?). The main creed of Vorinism is like vikings and vahallah. Fight, and kill in the name of your god. Show yourself to be a great warrior, and you get to fight next to your deity in the afterlife. Don't really see how that helps advance the oaths of those orders. Maybe stonewards? Because they don't give up?

Basically I don't see anything about those religions that would encourage, or result in more radiants. Could you clarify/specify?

 

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9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So i posted the same time you commented, but I feel a point I made in the above post fields this. Personal perspective and interpretation affects how the oaths are carried out. There is nothing inherently religious connected to Vorinism that I believe applies to windrunner's oaths. The callings mirror some of the ideals, but taken out of context. For instance lightweavers tend to be artistically inclined, but you will not advance in your oaths simply by following the art calling (forgot what it was called, beauty? creativity?). The main creed of Vorinism is like vikings and vahallah. Fight, and kill in the name of your god. Show yourself to be a great warrior, and you get to fight next to your deity in the afterlife. Don't really see how that helps advance the oaths of those orders. Maybe stonewards? Because they don't give up?

The way I'm thinking about it is that some of the main principles of Vorinism facilitate a society and culture where people are more likely to swear the first Ideal. It doesn't guarantee or directly ease a person's progression through Ideals and it doesn't magically increase the number of people who would attract a spren and be eligible for an Order. But a society whose dominant religion is about choosing what you're good at and pursuing that to your personal limit will result in more Radiants than something like the new Terris religion or Survivorism. 

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

The way I'm thinking about it is that some of the main principles of Vorinism facilitate a society and culture where people are more likely to swear the first Ideal. It doesn't guarantee or directly ease a person's progression through Ideals and it doesn't magically increase the number of people who would attract a spren and be eligible for an Order. But a society whose dominant religion is about choosing what you're good at and pursuing that to your personal limit will result in more Radiants than something like the new Terris religion or Survivorism. 

Thank you for clarifying! I understand better now. I still completely disagree and will say why below, but don't want you to think I am trying to change your mind or say you are wrong. Just explaining why that doesn't work for myself.

 

Vorinism breaks the callings by masculine and feminine arts. So if you were male (cough Elhokar cough) and are artistic, Vorinism would stunt your progression. If you were female (cough Lyn cough) and were combat inclined, Vorinism would stunt your progression. Vorinism was built into Alethi culture. Don't contribute in the religion, the ardents will do it for you. Going back to the viking mentality of fighting and killing for your god. Compete and win. Prove you are better than everyone else, does not sound very life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination to me. Dalinar was treated as weak and a nutzo because of that. It was shown as completely antithetical to Alethi and by extension Vorin ideals. It also isn't about picking what you are good at. First as I mentioned with the division of masculine and feminine arts, but further poor versus rich. Dark eyes versus lighteyes. A darkeyes farmer can't choose an officer's calling for instance. There is also availability. Depending on your location and standing, you may not even have access to an ardent that could help you with your calling. And finally as I said, the callings don't all line up with the oaths of the radiant orders. So you could focus on a calling your entire life and come no closer to attracting a spren. I understand you are not saying it is a guarantee. That it is more like a guidance to helps put you in the right direction, but from what I have seen, being a squire to a knight fills that role. Personally I do not see anything about Vorinism that lends its adherents to acting in such a way that results in an increased chance of becoming a radiant. 

edit: Further after re-reading your post, my point is none of the religions make you more likely to have a certain magic system. Some of them even fly completely in the face of the power system. Sand mastery being chief among them. The main religion hates and reviles them. Same thing with forgery and blood sealing. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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