kalamitous_emoashions

Trell is somehow related to the Whimsy - Hero of Ages Quote

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Hey all - I was doing a re-read of Mistborn 1 and came across a passage that I found particularly interesting given Brandon's specific choice of word.

I am not sure if this has been brought up before, I couldn't find any note of it in the tags despite the many different topics and discussions of Trell. So wanted to bring the communities attention to this. I am unsure whether this is a purely co-incidental word choice by Brandon, but as we know of our favourite author, very little of what he writes is accidental, which makes me think given our knowledge of new shards, perhaps the truth has been staring us in the face since the first time we heard about Trell. 

Here is the passage: 

'It listed the tenets of the Nelazan people, who had worshipped the god Trell. Sazed had always been partial to this religion because of it's focus on learning and the study of mathematics and the heavens...True, the Nelazan had known a great deal about astronomy, but their teachings of the afterlife were sketchy - almost whimsical. Their doctrine was purposefully vague, they'd taught, allowing all men to discover truth for themselves...What good was a religion without answers? Why believe in something if the response to half it's questions was "Ask Trell, and he will answer?"'. Page 410, Chapter 46 - Hero of Ages. 

A few points on this: 

1. The specific choice of the word whimsical to describe the religion of Trell now takes on a potentially insightful new meaning given that Whimsy is now a confirmed Shard. 

2. Brandon specifically notes that the Nelazan had known a great deal about maths and astronomy - if I was to chose two words that would indicate to me that a group of people were Cosmere aware, without being obvious, those two words would be high on my list. They had a religion with it's focus as the study of science and the universe - which sounds very much like a basis understanding of how the Cosmere works. 

3. The core worship structure of not having answers to questions, but just a believe that Trell will answer - as opposed to religions that already lay out all the answers upfront in a creed, suggests that they are confident that their god exists, lives, and importantly 'can answer'. While at the same time coming into line with the core concept of Whimsy - 'a sudden wish or idea that cannot be reasonable explained'. They didn't need answers, as they didn't know what all the questions were. They just had faith that their God would answer. 

4. Given Trell's involvement in Mistborn 1.5, we can safely say that the Nelazan were onto something with their religion - that it had a grounding in truth. 

If we draw this all together, then Brandon's use of the word whimsical, in conjunction with describing the Nelazan as seemingly cosmere aware, and the concepts of their faith matching into what could be considered Whimsy. We might have a good argument to state that Trell is of Whimsy. 

Also - wouldn't it be fun for Trell to be connected to a Shard we know very little about as a way to introduce potentially a new major player into the cosmere game. A trickster Shard inserting himself in small religions across the Cosmere under the noses of other Shards, not bound tightly to one planetary system but working through avatars everywhere. 

Would love it if anyone gets the chance to ask Brandon if his choice of word in Hero of Ages was important. 

Also - as always, would love for the community to rip this to pieces and show me some tasty WoB's that disprove me that Trell is linked to Whimsy. 

Stay positive and negative!

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34 minutes ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

We might have a good argument to state that Trell is of Whimsy. 

Not sure I would go that far. But I ran across this line the other day and kinda did a double take too. (this is what Brandon does to us)

Not sure if you’ve seen this WoB, but it suggests we may at least get a mention of Whimsy in Lost Metal:

Quote

Questioner

We had some unnamed Shard namedrops in Rhythm of War. Has there been any kind of Whimsical machinations onscreen, or have they been mostly absent?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Sorry, sorry. I think there's a mention of Whimsy in Wax and Wayne 4, so... Capital "w" Whimsy.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

Overall, I’d say the evidence we have still points overwhelmingly toward Autonomy as the force behind Trell. Maybe even to the point where it seems too obvious, which has led people to theorize in other directions.

That said, I wouldn’t be shocked if we found out that Wayne has been influenced by Whimsy in some way. 

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I could definitely see a connection but Whimsey cant be Trell itself.  Per WOB it's one of the shards we knew of at the time, and per a later one it's not Endowment specifically.

 

Quote

 

Chaos

I'm sorry Brandon, you might RAFO me.

*written* For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no… You drove all this way, that's what makes me. Eric comes and he's like--

Chaos

You RAFO'd me at Words of Radiance--

Brandon Sanderson

I know.

Chaos

--I asked you a question that was too much.

Brandon Sanderson

…you push, yeah… There you are you got your answer. You got me.

*writes* Yes.

Footnote: at that time we knew 9 Shards: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment, and Autonomy
Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

The spike at the end of Shadows of Self, does that have anything to do with Endowment.

Brandon Sanderson

That is not from Endowment, I can go ahead and let you know that.

Shadows of Self Portland signing (Oct. 10, 2015)

 

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Aha - nice work Quantus - I knew there would be a WoB somewhere to take apart the theory.

Just to tie off the loose ends with this theory, with the wording of the WoB question, we are sure that the metal in Bleeder definitively comes from Trell?

Alternatively, might Brandon be pulling a fast one on us? We know that red means corrupted investiture. Could Trell have previously been connected to Whimsy, but was corrupted by Autonomy/One of the other shards we know to create the metal. It has been a while since I read Mistborn 1.5 - but could we be looking at Whimsy still being relevant but corrupted? 

Knowing Brandon I am still inherently suspicious of his use of the word whimsical.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Just to tie off the loose ends with this theory, with the wording of the WoB question, we are sure that the metal in Bleeder definitively comes from Trell?

This WoB seems to suggest yes:

Quote

Questioner

Is the metal that Bleeder was associated with and had, is the Shard associated with that metal the same entity that's calling itself Trell?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

There's also this one:

Quote

Questioner

In the past, you have said... that we've seen a metal that is from a Shard that we know, on Scadrial. You said Wax has seen the influence of a Shard other than Preservation, Ruin, or Harmony, and that the spike that Bleeder was using was a metal from a Shard we know. It seems like there's another Shard influencing Scadrial. Is Trell an extension of that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

And is that Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

As for this idea:

1 hour ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Alternatively, might Brandon be pulling a fast one on us? We know that red means corrupted investiture. Could Trell have previously been connected to Whimsy, but was corrupted by Autonomy/One of the other shards we know to create the metal.

It definitely seems like a strong possibility that the metal in Bleeder's spike involves corrupted Investiture. It's just hard to say which Shard's Investiture it is at this point.

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9 hours ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Hey all - I was doing a re-read of Mistborn 1 and came across a passage that I found particularly interesting given Brandon's specific choice of word.

I am not sure if this has been brought up before, I couldn't find any note of it in the tags despite the many different topics and discussions of Trell. So wanted to bring the communities attention to this. I am unsure whether this is a purely co-incidental word choice by Brandon, but as we know of our favourite author, very little of what he writes is accidental, which makes me think given our knowledge of new shards, perhaps the truth has been staring us in the face since the first time we heard about Trell. 

Here is the passage: 

'It listed the tenets of the Nelazan people, who had worshipped the god Trell. Sazed had always been partial to this religion because of it's focus on learning and the study of mathematics and the heavens...True, the Nelazan had known a great deal about astronomy, but their teachings of the afterlife were sketchy - almost whimsical. Their doctrine was purposefully vague, they'd taught, allowing all men to discover truth for themselves...What good was a religion without answers? Why believe in something if the response to half it's questions was "Ask Trell, and he will answer?"'. Page 410, Chapter 46 - Hero of Ages. 

A few points on this: 

1. The specific choice of the word whimsical to describe the religion of Trell now takes on a potentially insightful new meaning given that Whimsy is now a confirmed Shard. 

2. Brandon specifically notes that the Nelazan had known a great deal about maths and astronomy - if I was to chose two words that would indicate to me that a group of people were Cosmere aware, without being obvious, those two words would be high on my list. They had a religion with it's focus as the study of science and the universe - which sounds very much like a basis understanding of how the Cosmere works. 

3. The core worship structure of not having answers to questions, but just a believe that Trell will answer - as opposed to religions that already lay out all the answers upfront in a creed, suggests that they are confident that their god exists, lives, and importantly 'can answer'. While at the same time coming into line with the core concept of Whimsy - 'a sudden wish or idea that cannot be reasonable explained'. They didn't need answers, as they didn't know what all the questions were. They just had faith that their God would answer. 

4. Given Trell's involvement in Mistborn 1.5, we can safely say that the Nelazan were onto something with their religion - that it had a grounding in truth. 

If we draw this all together, then Brandon's use of the word whimsical, in conjunction with describing the Nelazan as seemingly cosmere aware, and the concepts of their faith matching into what could be considered Whimsy. We might have a good argument to state that Trell is of Whimsy. 

Also - wouldn't it be fun for Trell to be connected to a Shard we know very little about as a way to introduce potentially a new major player into the cosmere game. A trickster Shard inserting himself in small religions across the Cosmere under the noses of other Shards, not bound tightly to one planetary system but working through avatars everywhere. 

Would love it if anyone gets the chance to ask Brandon if his choice of word in Hero of Ages was important. 

Also - as always, would love for the community to rip this to pieces and show me some tasty WoB's that disprove me that Trell is linked to Whimsy. 

Stay positive and negative!

Definitely negative, Choas was confirmed we knew the shard related to tell, and when he asked, whimsy wasn't confirmed

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I could argue that Whimsy could have just been trolling, naming themselves Whimsy just to mess with another shard whoever is the actual Trell.

Or maybe even they were Trell and someone stole/cop-opted the name from them, which honestly is a very Odium thing to do.

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Ah perfect - thanks for the useful WoB's @mdross81. Okay - I think we might be getting somewhere with this. If we lay out what we know: 

1. The Nelazan worshipped a God named Trell in era 1 - with their religion described as whimsical, and their focus suggesting they are cosmere aware. 

2. By era 1.5 Bleeder has a spike of Trellium metal, which is described as: 'a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust'. 

3. We know that in the cosmere the colour red has the implication of corrupted investiture. As far as I am aware, every other metal we know of has a singular colour, so the red rust spots on the metal are inherently suspicious and suggests that something has happened to the original metal. My thinking would be that a god metal has been corrupted by another shard. From the stormlight archives we know that in people their eyes turn red when corrupted, not their entire body or being, so red 'rust' spots on a metal would be a similar process on a metal. It doesn't turn completely red, but parts of it do. 

4. We know that the metal spike in Bleeder, which is probably a corrupted investiture metal, comes from one of the 9 Shards we knew of at the time, before the Shard dump in Rhythm of War. 

Also - looking at past topics I found this: 'Also, if you compare pre- and post-Catacendre Trell, they are not the same gods. The new one just took on the name, probably' - I found this comment by a user name @Oversleep from a couple of years ago, and would be interested to know why he said this. As this would play nicely into the theory.

5. So if Oversleep is right, and this god Trell has changed, then this change doesn't necessarily have to be a different god taking on the name, but instead an avatar/splinter/sliver that has been corrupted by a different Shard. 

So to conclude, drawing together what we know, it suggests that Trell existed as a god pre era 1, perhaps linked to the shard Whimsy, but was then corrupted and taken by a different shard who is operating in era 1.5. 

I would love to see a WoB that suggests that 'Trell' as a god is uncorrupted, and has always been the same Shard. But given the red rust spots and red cast to the metal, I am leaning towards believing that the Trell we know isn't the same as Era 1. Which opens up an interesting possibility of one of the Shards going around corrupting other shards avatars/splinters/slivers - which seems a rather Autonomy thing to do to me. 

As always - rip this to pieces everyone!

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6 hours ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

1. The Nelazan worshipped a God named Trell in era 1 - with their religion described as whimsical, and their focus suggesting they are cosmere aware. 

Ehhhh, I'm not so sure about the cosmere aware part, their focus on astronomy is shown to be very litteral and we only know of star charts relative to Scadrial, as they are what Sazed uses to judge the correct orbit when restoring the world.

I also find both the labeling of an entire population and the implication of all adherents of a specific faith as cosmere aware to be a stretch, it just sounds too unlikely.

The descriptor of whimsical might be as opposed to concrete, with it being a religion that doesn't provide direct answers or claims to truth.

I don't think that the assertion that the concept of "ask [god name]" implies an actual entity being there holds much water, do people in the real world not ask beings of worship for guidance/answers? 

Er, I don't mean that last part as an attack on religion/religious people, just the observation that there's not exactly an abundance of empirical evidence for anything supernatural and people still seek interaction with a supernatural existence.

6 hours ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

2. By era 1.5 Bleeder has a spike of Trellium metal, which is described as: 'a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust'. 

My take has always been that it's imitation atium, as it seems to fill the same function, with the discolouration and spots being the manifestation of the typical red for corrupted investiture.

 

Also, small nitpick, it's officially era 2.

6 hours ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Also - looking at past topics I found this: 'Also, if you compare pre- and post-Catacendre Trell, they are not the same gods. The new one just took on the name, probably' - I found this comment by a user name @Oversleep from a couple of years ago, and would be interested to know why he said this. As this would play nicely into the theory.

I believe this has to do with how different and conflicting the information we get about the Nelazan religion of Trellagism and Miles' Trellism is. They seem to be very different belief systems and it's very possible that they are entirely different people, one a god of unknown reality, the other a Shard using the name of an existing divinity to do... something.

6 hours ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

I would love to see a WoB that suggests that 'Trell' as a god is uncorrupted, and has always been the same Shard. But given the red rust spots and red cast to the metal, I am leaning towards believing that the Trell we know isn't the same as Era 1.

As I said further up, I don't think that the original Trell has to be a Shard/avatar/splinter, and I find it odd if Ruin and Preservation would have let another Shard gain a foothold on their world, with no hints to Shardic interference in all of era 1, nothing in Secret History, nothing from Ruin, nothing from Sazed, so I think Trell being associated to a Shard is recent, as these things go.

6 hours ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Which opens up an interesting possibility of one of the Shards going around corrupting other shards avatars/splinters/slivers - which seems a rather Autonomy thing to do to me. 

I like that, even if I vehemently disagree that the historical Trell had any Shardic connection.

 

¤_¤

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2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

As I said further up, I don't think that the original Trell has to be a Shard/avatar/splinter, and I find it odd if Ruin and Preservation would have let another Shard gain a foothold on their world, with no hints to Shardic interference in all of era 1, nothing in Secret History, nothing from Ruin, nothing from Sazed, so I think Trell being associated to a Shard is recent, as these things go.

There's actually some rather interesting things on this.... The most important one is this:

Quote

Menderbug

Was Scadrial visited by any other Shard before the events of Mistborn? If so, which one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Several.

General Signed Books 2018 (March 8, 2018)

and a rather curious one is this:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

*reading a personalization request* Name a Shard not--

FirstSelector

Preservation... from the alternate [Well of Ascension] ending.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh! Oh, oh, oh, oh! What do you mean by that?

FirstSelector

I thought that those four were-- the four mist-people--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh the four mist-people that's-- Oh... *sighs* I gotta RAFO that, right?

FirstSelector

Well it's not canon technically.

Brandon Sanderson

No it's not canon... Okay I just have to dig back deep... But there's stuff--

FirstSelector

Star.

Brandon Sanderson

There's a star, just remember the star.

*writes*

"Endowment was there*"

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

(For context, in the original version of Well of Ascension, there were 3-4 other mist spirits besides Preservation that drove Marsh off when he was about to kill Sazed, and this WoB seems to be a confirmation one was Endowment, of all Shards. Now, this is very much non-canon, and Edgli seems to have a strong no-interference policy in canon, but it shows Brandon's been thinking about other Shards being involved since very early on, and it's odd how the original Trelagism lines up with Taldain, and there's a Scadrian religion connected to Nalthis as well...)

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8 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

There's actually some rather interesting things on this.... The most important one is this:

Quote

Menderbug

Was Scadrial visited by any other Shard before the events of Mistborn? If so, which one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Several.

General Signed Books 2018 (March 8, 2018)

I'd argue that this could just be that they placed their concentration there, not bringing their power, if that makes sense. Like, Edgli could visit without bringing the Shard Endowment into the Scadrian system, which is presumably bound to Nalthis by way of being invested there.

15 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(For context, in the original version of Well of Ascension, there were 3-4 other mist spirits besides Preservation that drove Marsh off when he was about to kill Sazed, and this WoB seems to be a confirmation one was Endowment, of all Shards.

Hmm, I knew some of that, neat.

16 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Now, this is very much non-canon, and Edgli seems to have a strong no-interference policy in canon, but it shows Brandon's been thinking about other Shards being involved since very early on, and it's odd how the original Trelagism lines up with Taldain, and there's a Scadrian religion connected to Nalthis as well...)

I'm not very good at Taldain, so other than the significance of stars (and I suppose the vibe of "think for yourself") it's not a connection I can make, my personal association is to the purelaker religion, which has some standout similarities to me, but that might of course be Bavadin doing her thing in both cases.

Heh, Dadradah even fits the Nalthian pattern (T'Telir, D'Denir, Dedelin, Vivenna, etc) and has the same cadence as a lot of them. :lol:

 

¤_¤

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10 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd argue that this could just be that they placed their concentration there, not bringing their power, if that makes sense. Like, Edgli could visit without bringing the Shard Endowment into the Scadrian system, which is presumably bound to Nalthis by way of being invested there.

Oh yeah, I don't think they actually like, moved their Shards in. I think this runs into the weirdness mentioned in the Patji WoB, with how exactly a Shard "moves" in the first place.

11 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm not very good at Taldain, so other than the significance of stars (and I suppose the vibe of "think for yourself") it's not a connection I can make, my personal association is to the purelaker religion, which has some standout similarities to me, but that might of course be Bavadin doing her thing in both cases.

The main things are:

  • They originate from a place where the day-night cycle is extremely odd, which is supposedly due to latitude but also happens to apply to Taldain in general
  • The sun as a god, when Bav seems to potentially be Invested in Taldain's sun (interestingly, however, they view the sun as the bad god)
  • The name Trell, which is the name of a craftsman in White Sand, as well as being part of the Diem ranks mastrell and lesstrell
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Posted (edited)

On 2021-08-13 at 10:20 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Oh yeah, I don't think they actually like, moved their Shards in. I think this runs into the weirdness mentioned in the Patji WoB, with how exactly a Shard "moves" in the first place.

Spoiler for length.

Spoiler
Quote

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

I assume this braintwister is the WoB in question?

The way I see it, Shards are functionally infinite and omnipresent, suffusing the cosmere.

Vessels on the other hand are finite, by their nature as mortals. While the vessels are magnified greatly by the trancendent power of their Shard, having a much greater capacity to remember and process, to name just two, as well as the ability to split their focus, being able to be in multiple places and talk to multiple people at the same time, they are still fundamentally limited.

They can not percieve all of existence at once, nor focus their attention on all places at once, because they are not infinite beings.

I'd argue that we see two ways a Vessel can focus their attention from Rayse, one at Thaylen Field, manifesting a presence, similar to what Ati does when he makes Vin chase a phantom mistborn, a presence that appears as a physical person without much impact on the world around them, the other whenever he decides to dial up the drama, this being the overwhelming, burning beyond sensation that he pulls at a few points.

Both of these could be simply a difference in how much the Vessel lets the Shard bleed through to the point of focus.

My take on this is that generally a Shard visiting a place is as simple as the Vessel focusing their attention at that place, since the Shard itself is present everywhere that's what makes sense to me.

On 2021-08-13 at 10:20 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

They originate from a place where the day-night cycle is extremely odd, which is supposedly due to latitude but also happens to apply to Taldain in general

As someone who lives far North enough that it never gets truly dark at the height of summer (and conversely it looks like nighttime in the morning and at three in the afternoon in winter), I can confirm that the day-night cycle wonks up at more extreme latitudes, and that's before you enter a polar circle.

 

On 2021-08-13 at 10:20 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The sun as a god, when Bav seems to potentially be Invested in Taldain's sun (interestingly, however, they view the sun as the bad god)

True, though deification of the Sun has happened many times in our world, so I'm not sure how much stock I'm willing to put in that.

The Sun as the bad god is also shared with the purelaker religion.

I could see the Sun as bad as having been possibly influenced by exiles from Taldain or somesuch, though I feel that'd require both the knowledge of the Dayside star being Invested and a beef with Bavadin.

On 2021-08-13 at 10:20 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The name Trell, which is the name of a craftsman in White Sand, as well as being part of the Diem ranks mastrell and lesstrell

Huh, I'd only seen the word mastrell before, I did not think it split there. 

Personally I'd have broken it down as something like mast-rell rather than mas-trell, though seeing them together is pretty convincing.

It could break down as ma- and les-strell, though that creates a rather unwieldy double consonant in the latter.

Neat.

 

 

¤_¤

Edited by Inquisitor #5
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22 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I assume this braintwister is the WoB in question?

Yes, specifically this (shorter but also long) bit:

Quote

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

 

It's.... unclear, to me, exactly how much this involves the Vessel shifting focus, etc, because presumably she's still "on" Taldain while doing this, but at the same time, also isn't, because Vessels are weird.

24 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

As someone who lives far North enough that it never gets truly dark at the height of summer (and conversely it looks like nighttime in the morning and at three in the afternoon in winter), I can confirm that the day-night cycle wonks up at more extreme latitudes, and that's before you enter a polar circle.

Oh I'm not denying it does happen, just noting that, with the context of other things like the name Trell and the knowledge other Shards have been involved, it's potentially suspicious.

25 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

True, though deification of the Sun has happened many times in our world, so I'm not sure how much stock I'm willing to put in that.

Agreed that on its own it doesn't mean a lot, just combined with other "coincidences" + Trell's name.

26 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The Sun as the bad god is also shared with the purelaker religion.

Hm, is Vun Makak associated with the sun? Skimming, I don't see a mention of that, but I might be missing it.

29 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I could see the Sun as bad as having been possibly influenced by exiles from Taldain or somesuch, though I feel that'd require both the knowledge of the Dayside star being Invested and a beef with Bavadin.

Probably got locked out like Khriss seems to have been, lol.

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Another thought, Whimsy can see into the future very far ahead and picked the name Trell to hard troll the 'real' Trell.

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Posted (edited)

On 2021-08-15 at 8:09 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Hm, is Vun Makak associated with the sun? Skimming, I don't see a mention of that, but I might be missing it.

Huh, I could have sworn...

Maybe that's something that my brain invented from fragments of Trelagism and the fact of their holy grottos.

Well, I retract that then.

On 2021-08-15 at 8:09 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It's.... unclear, to me, exactly how much this involves the Vessel shifting focus, etc, because presumably she's still "on" Taldain while doing this, but at the same time, also isn't, because Vessels are weird.

Now, that's an interesting line of inquiry, where can a Vessel be said to "be?" 

The being is dissolved in the Shard and I'd argue that the only place they can be said to be is where their focus is.

Though this runs into a bunch of weirdness with things like Investing in a planet binding the Shard to the system and how Shardic confrontations even happen (if you're losing, why not move your focus somewhere else?)

On 2021-08-15 at 8:09 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Oh I'm not denying it does happen, just noting that, with the context of other things like the name Trell and the knowledge other Shards have been involved, it's potentially suspicious.

Fair, fair. 

Especially considering how oddly common permutations of "Trell" are.

On 2021-08-15 at 10:08 PM, apepi said:

Another thought, Whimsy can see into the future very far ahead and picked the name Trell to hard troll the 'real' Trell.

If the idea that Shardic Intent affects future sight aptitude holds, I'd guess that Whimsy would be incredibly short-sighted, as Shards go anyway.

 

 

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Edited by Inquisitor #5
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On 12/08/2021 at 2:57 PM, Quantus said:

I could definitely see a connection but Whimsey cant be Trell itself.  Per WOB it's one of the shards we knew of at the time, and per a later one it's not Endowment specifically.

On 12/08/2021 at 5:34 PM, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Aha - nice work Quantus - I knew there would be a WoB somewhere to take apart the theory.

Just to tie off the loose ends with this theory, with the wording of the WoB question, we are sure that the metal in Bleeder definitively comes from Trell?

Alternatively, might Brandon be pulling a fast one on us? We know that red means corrupted investiture. Could Trell have previously been connected to Whimsy, but was corrupted by Autonomy/One of the other shards we know to create the metal. It has been a while since I read Mistborn 1.5 - but could we be looking at Whimsy still being relevant but corrupted? 

Knowing Brandon I am still inherently suspicious of his use of the word whimsical.

By the way

Quote

little wilson

Are Trellism and Trelagism the same religion?

Brandon Sanderson

Uuhheha, that's a RAFO too.

little wilson

Is it the same god in both?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that… who Trell is and what happened is a matter of some interest in the cosmere and amusement to me.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)
On 15/08/2021 at 10:08 PM, apepi said:

Another thought, Whimsy can see into the future very far ahead and picked the name Trell to hard troll the 'real' Trell.

Now that's something I can see a guy with a kite-based magic system do

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@mathiau ah that is such an interesting WoB. Great find.

Right - until proven wrong in the books, I am all aboard the head canon that Whimsy has something to do with Trell. I need to find a way to ask Brandon something like: 

'Was Trell, or a version of him, at one point in the history of Cosmere ever connected with Whimsy'. 

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40 minutes ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Was Trell, or a version of him, at one point in the history of Cosmere ever connected with Whimsy

I think this is a phrasing that gives Brandon way too much wiggle-room.

Something like "has there ever been a significant connection between Trell and Whimsy" might serve you better.

"Ever connected" could be wiggled out by saying yes, because they met once, or something like that.

 

 

¤_¤

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So I am of the opinion that Trell is Autonomy, but I wouldn't be surprised if the attack on Harmony was a joint effort, headed by Autonomy, but aided by Odium. I have zero evidence to back that up, its just a hunch. But if Odium is involved, I wouldn't be surprised if Whimsy was too.

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There's a lot of ambiguity regarding what Trell is and was due to WOBs like this:

Quote

Windrunner Savant

Can you give me any information about Trell?

Brandon Sanderson

*written in book*

Trell has been many things over the eons...

Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016)

So it's possible that Trell started out as an Autonomy thing, was then hijacked by Whimsy and then regained by Autonomy or Odium. That might be the case, even with the WOBs quoted in this thread making it pretty much clear that Whimsy is not Trell right now.

(All that said, I personally feel like Brandon has mainly written that to artificially obscure how obviously it's Autonomy at this rate :D )

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On 13.08.2021 at 11:56 AM, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Also - looking at past topics I found this: 'Also, if you compare pre- and post-Catacendre Trell, they are not the same gods. The new one just took on the name, probably' - I found this comment by a user name @Oversleep from a couple of years ago, and would be interested to know why he said this. As this would play nicely into the theory.

It was probably something I read on coppermind back then.

If you read about the OG religion and then look at Miles and Set, they don't seem to share the same religion or god.

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