What did Notum mean by this, exactly? ("eight genocides")

[go_go_gragdet Cobalt Guard]

I tried searching the forums for a discussion on this, but didn't find anything. Maybe it's obvious (I am due for another read through, after all).

It's from chapter 30 or RoW (emphasis mine):

Quote

 

“These Radiants won’t do what those of the past did,” Adolin said. “Look, for thousands of years before the Recreance, spren and humans got along. Will we let one event wipe that all out?”

“One event?” Notum said. “One event that caused eight genocides, Prince Adolin. Pause and think on that. Nearly every honorspren was bound, and those were all killed. Can you imagine the betrayal? The pain of being murdered by the person you trusted with your life? Your very soul? Men die, and their souls travel to the Spiritual Realm to meld with deity. But what of us?”

 

I'm assuming he's referring to eight types of Radiant spren, and that one of the remaining two is highspren. If so, which type is the other one? The Bondsmith spren (I don't know what they're called, collectively), probably?

Thanks.

[mdross81 Shardbearer]

7 minutes ago, go_go_gragdet said:

I'm assuming he's referring to eight types of Radiant spren, and that one of the remaining two is highspren. If so, which type is the other one? The Bondsmith spren (I don't know what they're called, collectively), probably?

That’s correct. He’s referring to the spren from all orders other than the Skybreakers and the Bondsmiths. I don’t know that the Bondsmith spren have a collective name other than Bondsmith spren. 

[LewsTherinTelescope Radiant Squire]

They're just called "Bondsmith spren" apparently, yeah. 

Quote

Aurimus

Firstly, is there a general name for all the Bondsmith spren? Along the lines of the word "honorspren" for all the Windrunner spren.

Brandon Sanderson

In world, they're just called Bondsmith Spren. But godspren isn't terrible for discussions, as it does relate a little to things like the god metals.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 16, 2020)

 

[Weltall Voidbringer]

35 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I don’t know that the Bondsmith spren have a collective name other than Bondsmith spren. 

'Godspren' has been used in discussion but it's not a canon term.

EDIT: Ninja'd by WoB

Edited August 4, 2021 by Weltall

[ElMonoEstupendo Svrakiss]

Yeah, he's definitely omitting the highspren and the Bondsmith spren.

It's worth noting that the honorspren think the Sibling ended the bond with Melishi early i.e. before the Recreance (and it must be just after the Binding), but that's not confirmed, largely because none of the current honorspren bar one were alive at the time. Other sources state that all Orders but one (the Skybreakers) participated in the Recreance. I personally believe the Sibling was deadeyed like the rest.

Mind, that wouldn't constitute a genocide, but I doubt Notum wanted to be semantically pedantic at that point.

[go_go_gragdet Cobalt Guard]

Thank you all for the confirmation, the WOB and added nuance.

[Jondesu Midnight Essence]

13 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Mind, that wouldn't constitute a genocide, but I doubt Notum wanted to be semantically pedantic at that point.

When is Notum (or any Honorspren) not semantically pedantic? 

[mathiau Twinborn]

23 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

I personally believe the Sibling was deadeyed like the rest.

I don't see how this is compatible with him saying he was awake the whole time in RoW

[LewsTherinTelescope Radiant Squire]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't see how this is compatible with him saying he was awake the whole time in RoW

Only since Dalinar arrived/swore his First Ideal/not clear exactly when but it's to do with a Bondsmith being back. RoW 40:

Quote

The Sibling didn’t respond at first. I’m not sure, they said. I have avoided your kind. You were supposed to think I was dead. Everyone was supposed to think I was dead.

“I’m glad you’re not. You said you were the soul of the tower. Can you restore its functions?”

No, the voice said. I really was asleep. Until … a Bondsmith. I felt a Bondsmith. But the tower is not functional, and I have not the Light to restart it.

[mdross81 Shardbearer]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't see how this is compatible with him saying he was awake the whole time in RoW

Only since Dalinar arrived/swore his First Ideal/not clear exactly when but it's to do with a Bondsmith being back. RoW 40:

Quote

The Sibling didn’t respond at first. I’m not sure, they said. I have avoided your kind. You were supposed to think I was dead. Everyone was supposed to think I was dead.

“I’m glad you’re not. You said you were the soul of the tower. Can you restore its functions?”

No, the voice said. I really was asleep. Until … a Bondsmith. I felt a Bondsmith. But the tower is not functional, and I have not the Light to restart it.

I don't think the Sibling awakening upon being around a Bondsmith indicates that the Sibling was deadeyed. They were just too functional during RoW, and Brandon seems to be using Maya as the vehicle for showing how to heal deadeyes.

I think the honorspren are likely correct that the Sibling ended their bond before the imprisonment of BAM and the Recreance. (It's still not entirely clear to me whether it was one or the other or both of these events that caused the appearance of deadeyes).

That said, we don't know how that bond was ended. The description of being asleep is interesting because it reminds of what happened to Syl when Relador died. She also was described as having slumbered. Although, Syl's slumber seems to have been because she was too young for the bond. I don't imagine the Sibling had the same problem.

The other problem with I suppose is that, as far as we know, Melishi was involved in capturing BAM. So if it was the capture that caused deadeyes, and Melishi was the one who performed the capture, he can't have died prior to the capture, and therefore his death couldn't be the cause of the Sibling's slumber.

I suppose there's always the possibility that it wasn't Melishi's skills as a Bondsmith that were required for the capture. Rather, he might have been the bait - the thing that BAM would be drawn to (as with Re-Shephir, Nergaoul, and spren captured for fabrials generally), and that he was then killed or died just before the capture. Or maybe it wasn't even a matter of Melishi dying, but rather something happening to his mind that could have caused the slumber since that is what tethers spren to the Physical?

That line about how people were supposed to think that the Sibling was dead seems to hint that the slumber was the result of some intentional plan between the Sibling and Melishi though right?

Gah! Every time I try to piece together what happened with the False Desolation, the imprisonment of BAM, and the Recreance I just and up feeling like I'm theorizing in circles.

[Fulminato Cobalt Guard]

On 6/8/2021 at 6:45 PM, mdross81 said:

I think the honorspren are likely correct that the Sibling ended their bond before the imprisonment of BAM and the Recreance. (It's still not entirely clear to me whether it was one or the other or both of these events that caused the appearance of deadeyes).

the tower was abandoned before the imprisonement of Ba-Ado-Mishram.

form Oathbringher:

Chapter 69 (free meal, no string): The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower’s functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists.

Chapter 79 (Echoes of Thunder): Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi.

Chapter 80 (Obvious): Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.

 

a bit of time passed before the abandon of the tower and the capture of BAM. and i'm reasonably sure no dead eyes was created between the two events.

[mathiau Twinborn]

4 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

the tower was abandoned before the imprisonement of Ba-Ado-Mishram.

form Oathbringher:

Chapter 69 (free meal, no string): The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower’s functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists.

Chapter 79 (Echoes of Thunder): Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi.

Chapter 80 (Obvious): Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.

 

a bit of time passed before the abandon of the tower and the capture of BAM. and i'm reasonably sure no dead eyes was created between the two events.

I fail to see where in these lines you find that the Tower was abandoned after BAM's capture

[Fulminato Cobalt Guard]

16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I fail to see where in these lines you find that the Tower was abandoned after BAM's capture

the tower stop to function when the bond between the sibling and melishi broken, and the gemstone archive was made after that moment. other gemstone talk about the plan to imprison ba-ado-mishram, so it's a future event.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Fulminato

[mathiau Twinborn]

1 minute ago, Fulminato said:

the tower stop to function when the bond between the sibling and melishi broken, and the gemstone archive was made after that moment.

Source?

[Fulminato Cobalt Guard]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Source?

My research into the cognitive reflections of spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent—but I find counter to that theory.

chapter 68 (aim for the sun)

[mathiau Twinborn]

Just now, Fulminato said:

My research into the cognitive reflections of spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent—but I find counter to that theory.

chapter 68 (aim for the sun)

I asked why you thought every gemstone of the archive was from after the Sibling broke his bound, not why you knew some of them where from after he did.

Also the Sibling withdrawn from men (other than Melishi) before he broke his bound, the protective fabrials were part of Melishi's plan to bring him back

[Fulminato Cobalt Guard]

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I asked why you thought every gemstone of the archive was from after the Sibling broke his bound, not why you knew some of them where from after he did.

Also the Sibling withdrawn from men (other than Melishi) before he broke his bound, the protective fabrials were part of Melishi's plan to bring him back

most of the gemstone are about abandon of the tower. i think you should bear the burden of the proof for the idea a few come before that.

because if you build a library to withstand ages is because you think will pass ages before is found.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Fulminato

[Frustration Nightwatcher]

5 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

most of the gemstone are about abandon of the tower. i think you should bear the burden of the proof for the idea a few come before that.

because if you build a library to withstand ages is because you think will pass ages before is found.

Quote

2-22

smokestone

"I wish to submit my formal protest at the idea of abandoning the tower. This is an extreme step, taken brashly."

 

[mathiau Twinborn]

6 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

most of the gemstone are about abandon of the tower. i think you should bear the burden of the proof for the idea a few come before that.

because if you build a library to withstand ages is because you think will pass ages before is found.

Four are about abandoning the tower (2-22, 8-1, 4-17 and 10-1) four other are about the tower falling apart (1-1 1s, 1-1 2nd, 1-1 3rd and 3-11)

That's eight out of thirty, six drawers out of twenty-two.

Also how do you explain this

Quote

"Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants."

Drawer 29-29, ruby

If the tower was already close to be abandoned?

[Fulminato Cobalt Guard]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

2-22

smokestone

"I wish to submit my formal protest at the idea of abandoning the tower. This is an extreme step, taken brashly.

taken.  past tense

we are basicaly write the same thing over and over. no point in repeat it.

[mathiau Twinborn]

28 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

taken.  past tense

The decision has been taken, it doesn't mean it has been applied yet. Also I see you didn't mentioned my counter-argument, I suppose it means you agree with them? (in the sense that you agree they counter your arguments, not in the sense they prove your conclusion wrong)

Quote

we are basicaly write the same thing over and over. no point in repeat it.

We are absolutely not?

[mdross81 Shardbearer]

2 hours ago, Fulminato said:

a bit of time passed before the abandon of the tower and the capture of BAM. and i'm reasonably sure no dead eyes was created between the two events.

I get your thought on the timing of things, but have a different view. I laid it out it another thread that has a good discussion about the timing of events with the false desolation. In fact, the other thread is probably a better place for discussing this since the question of timing is sorta tangential to what the OP of this thread was asking about. Here’s a link: