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Unite Them

Kaladin as Shard

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"He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!"

Pickup up the spear seems to be a relatively clear reference to our boy Kal.   But apparently he must also pickup a crown (like Jezrian), the tower (Uritheru?), the fallen title.... shard maybe?

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Jezrien didn't wear a crown

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4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Jezrien didn't wear a crown

"Herald of Kings", no?

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Posted (edited)

At least in the artwork he wears a crown. And I’m talking about the realistic versions that are being made of each of the heralds.

Edited by MyrmidonOfAchilles
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1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

"Herald of Kings", no?

He still didn't wear a crown.

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Just now, Frustration said:

He still didn't wear a crown.

Yeah, but it's not like Death Rattles are known for being literal, now are they.

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2 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Yeah, but it's not like Death Rattles are known for being literal, now are they.

Well no, but using that as a comparison to Jezrien is simply wrong

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Just now, Frustration said:

Well no, but using that as a comparison to Jezrien is simply wrong

Well, why is that? I'm not even necessarily agreeing that Kaladin is going to pick up a Shard, i'm just curious as to why you disagree that a crown doesn't make sense as an abstract reference to Jezrien, Herald of Kings.

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1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Well, why is that? I'm not even necessarily agreeing that Kaladin is going to pick up a Shard, i'm just curious as to why you disagree that a crown doesn't make sense as an abstract reference to Jezrien, Herald of Kings.

  1. Herald of Kings was never a tittle he had, it was added centuries, maybe millennia later.
  2. Jezrien did not wear a crown, at least not while on Roshar.
  3. He needs to pick up Jezrien? They guy who died?
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Just now, Frustration said:
  • Herald of Kings was never a tittle he had, it was added centuries, maybe millennia later.

Okay, sure. That's true. But again, this is a Death Rattle we're talking about. He's still been known as Herald of Kings. Death Rattles are basically meant to be obscure.

Just now, Frustration said:
  • Jezrien did not wear a crown, at least not while on Roshar.

See above, tbh.

Just now, Frustration said:
  • He needs to pick up Jezrien? They guy who died?

Well, this could spiral into a whole other discussion about whether or not Kaladin will replace Jezrien as the Windrunner-equivalent Herald and wind up as a 5th-oath/herald combo like Nale. Do you want to have that discussion? Cause I don't really know if I do. I'm just saying it's a possibility.

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Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

See above, tbh.

If we go by culture rather than history then him not wearing a crown is reinforced, not diminished

1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Well, this could spiral into a whole other discussion about whether or not Kaladin will replace Jezrien as the Windrunner-equivalent Herald and wind up as a 5th-oath/herald combo like Nale. Do you want to have that discussion? Cause I don't really know if I do. I'm just saying it's a possibility.

A far better way to describe the position is with a sword than a crown.

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Just now, Frustration said:

If we go by culture rather than history then him not wearing a crown is reinforced, not diminished

Okay, then where on Roshar would rulers be wearing crowns? maybe this detail will be more important than I anticipated.

Just now, Frustration said:

A far better way to describe the position is with a sword than a crown.

Alright that's fair.

Though looking at the whole Death Rattle again, I'm not sure "the fallen title" is a separate fourth thing from the Tower, Crown, and Spear. I think the fallen title involves those three things as pieces of what it refers to.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Okay, then where on Roshar would rulers be wearing crowns? maybe this detail will be more important than I anticipated.

Some did some did not, Jezrien did not, Sadees did not, Gaviar Elhokar and Jasnah had small ones.

Edited by Frustration
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Just now, Frustration said:

Some did some did not, Jezrien did not, Sadees did not, Gaviar Elhokar and Jasnha had small ones.

Hmm. Okay. Trying to think about this from new angles, then...

Let's tackle one of the basic assumptions we're making here; that the "he" that "must pick it up" is Kaladin. Yes, the Spear seems to point in that direction, but Kal hasn't and probably won't ever have a Crown, nor does he "own" Urithiru (which may or may not even be the Tower referred to in the Rattle), unless you think of it in some abstract way, which, again, this is a Death Rattle, so that kind of abstract thinking may be needed to decipher it. 

But let's roll with this idea of not assuming the "he" is Kaladin. Who else could "he" be?

...Maybe I should make a separate topic for this, I admit we've kind of hijacked OP's topic here.

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1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

...Maybe I should make a separate topic for this, I admit we've kind of hijacked OP's topic here.

That makes for the best discussion:D

I am sorry if this did upset you @Unite Them

2 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

But let's roll with this idea of not assuming the "he" is Kaladin. Who else could "he" be?

Dalinar perhapse, Fallen Tittle - Bondsmith/Radiant/Honor, Tower - Finding Urithiru, Crown - Ruling Alethkar, albeit indirectly, Spear - Kaladin

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Just now, Frustration said:

That makes for the best discussion:D

I am sorry if this did upset you @Unite Them

Agreed. So, think that would be a wiser course of action? :P

Just now, Frustration said:

Dalinar perhapse, Fallen Tittle - Bondsmith/Radiant/Honor, Tower - Finding Urithiru, Crown - Ruling Alethkar, albeit indirectly, Spear - Kaladin

Yeah, that was definitely who came to mind for alternatives. In which case maybe the fallen title IS the shard of honor, but it's Dalinar who's going to pick it up, which seems almost TOO obvious... Hmmm.

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Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Agreed. So, think that would be a wiser course of action? :P

Oh, I ment leave it here, conversation rarely survives thread transfer.

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Oh, I ment leave it here, conversation rarely survives thread transfer.

Understandable.

On a side note, our debate managed to get this thread listed as a hot topic, so i'm amused. :D Hooray for intellectual discussion about fictional worlds and cultures!

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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Jezrien didn't wear a crown

sounds like a fallen crown

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fallen title could also be herald

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1 minute ago, Unite Them said:

sounds like a fallen crown

It was a fallen tittle but ok

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I'm not sure how necessary it is to take all of the terms fully literally.  To me taking up a crown could mean literally picking up a crown or it could mean taking up a position of high authority/leadership.  Title could refer to Herald or Shard or something else.  I have no idea what the tower could refer to beyond the Uritheru.  And as has been mentioned above the spear seems self explanatory.

Jezrien or Shard for Kaladin seem like the most likely interpretations of that death rattle.  But hey its speculation.  Is there anything else out there that could fit that interpretation?

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24 minutes ago, Unite Them said:

I'm not sure how necessary it is to take all of the terms fully literally.

I suppose that's just me, I am such a litteral person, either I'm completly serious, or it so outlandish it has to be a joke.

There is no room for poetry.

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Nouf

What does it mean that Kaladin is close to Honor, and how did that factor into him staying conscious while every other Windrunner in the tower didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

The nuts and bolts answer is, Kaladin basically was in a place where he could say the next oath, and should have said the next oath, and indeed knew the next oath, and it was on his tongue, and he refused to. So basically he was as close to being the next level of Knights Radiant as a person could humanly get, because everyone considered him ready except himself. He even knew that he was ready, but by saying it, it would require him to give up something that was precious to him, which is his feeling guilty. A precious part of his identity as he saw it. And he would have to relinquish that. That's the bulk of it.

The other bulk of it is, the level to which Kaladin tries to protect, the level to which Kaladin exemplifies the Ideals of the Windrunners, and indeed of the way that Honor would have all Knights Radiant act, is so over the top, in alignment with the way Honor would like it to be, that it could even be considered unhealthy. Remember, Honor didn't always encourage healthy relationships with things like the power, particularly later in his existence. So either way, Kaladin is just kind of extra aligned with that intent, if that makes any sense.

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17 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

"Herald of Kings", no?

It’s mentioned that in vorin illustrations he wears a crown but I think Brandon said that he doesent wear a crown 

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