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Surgebinding, Odium and Renarin’s Powers


Reckoner89

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47 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Heh, thought you meant the Heavenly Ones at first and was so confused. 

Nah, she tries it and it doesn't work. RoW 67:

Ok

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Teft noticed. Also, when you use only little of Stormlight glow is practicly unnoticable - Kaladin was using Reverse Lashing on the Bridge, and only few people near to him were able to see this.

Same reason why no one ever sees Venli when she peers into the SR, it's possible Renarin is just using very small amount of Stormlight too

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On 2021-07-30 at 5:29 PM, Frustration said:

Stormlight still works.

Uhm, no? That's the point of the suppressor?

Also, if Rlain was using Light, of any kind, shouldn't someone have remarked on his tattoo melting off?

(Though to be fair, I'm not certain of how exactly the tattoo stayed and was incorporated when he changed to warform, so there may be some weirdness there.)

On 2021-07-30 at 8:47 PM, Bzhydack said:

Kaladin was using Reverse Lashing on the Bridge, and only few people near to him were able to see this.

To be fair, that was in direct sunlight.

On 2021-07-30 at 8:47 PM, Bzhydack said:

And for Honorblade.

At least for Jezrien's Honorblade, which grants Adhesion, so we don't know if this is Honorblade shenanigans, Adhesion shenanigans, Honorblade with a permadead Herald shenanigans, other shenanigans or a combination of multiple of these.

On 2021-07-30 at 8:54 PM, mathiau said:

Same reason why no one ever sees Venli when she peers into the SR, it's possible Renarin is just using very small amount of Stormlight too

That kinda makes it sound like Renarin is constantly walking around with a slight charge of Stormlight, as the visions strike randomly, it seems. So he'd need to constantly have Light in case one comes over him.

 

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Just now, Inquisitor #5 said:

That kinda makes it sound like Renarin is constantly walking around with a slight charge of Stormlight, as the visions strike randomly, it seems. So he'd need to constantly have Light in case one comes over him.

 

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Before he officially became a radiant he was constantly near gemstone lamps and once he became one he obviously always had gemstones on him, like any other radiants

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7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Before he officially became a radiant he was constantly near gemstone lamps and once he became one he obviously always had gemstones on him, like any other radiants

Hmm, yeah, that's fair.

Now I wonder how much control you have over how much Light you take in, like, can you choose to not drain an entire gem of Light in one go?

And how much control would Renarin have while panicing over yet another vision? Could he keep himself from drinking the nearest lamp and glowing conspicuously?

And if he actively didn't want the visions, which does seem to have been the case, why wouldn't he have taken care to stay away from Stormlight lamps and not  carry money unless he had to, if they actually use Light?

I suppose it feels more solid to me if the visions aren't something that requires more power than, say, Kaladin's strength of squires, as that doesn't require me to rationalise character decisions that, in this light, are unreasonable.

It's also the simpler solution from my point of view.

Why doesn't anyone catch Renarin glowing? He doesn't need Light.

Why doesn't Renarin try to stay away from Light? It wouldn't make a difference.

Why can't he control it? It's a resonance, Kaladin can't control his squireing either.

 

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7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Uhm, no? That's the point of the suppressor?

*cough* Kaladin and Moash *cough*

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Also, if Rlain was using Light, of any kind, shouldn't someone have remarked on his tattoo melting off?

Kaladin was the only one who's tatoo melted, everyone else kept theirs.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

To be fair, that was in direct sunlight.

Which is why I used the barracks

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And if he actively didn't want the visions, which does seem to have been the case, why wouldn't he have taken care to stay away from Stormlight lamps and not  carry money unless he had to, if they actually use Light?

Well that would mean he would have to realize that it uses light, and decided he didn't want them, despite Gyls wanting him to have them

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I suppose it feels more solid to me if the visions aren't something that requires more power than, say, Kaladin's strength of squires, as that doesn't require me to rationalise character decisions that, in this light, are unreasonable.

Why should something as powerful or more, than Atium be the same as having more squires than other radiants?

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Why doesn't anyone catch Renarin glowing? He doesn't need Light.

Why doesn't anyone catch Kaladin or Jasnah glowing?

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Why doesn't Renarin try to stay away from Light? It wouldn't make a difference.

He doesn't know

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Why can't he control it? It's a resonance, Kaladin can't control his squireing either.

None of the Radiants had control when starting, and he hasn't tried to learn meaning he has no way to do so.

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

*cough* Kaladin and Moash *cough*

Yes and *cough* every other Windrunner *cough* and even then their healing slowed as the corruption got worse, just look at Kaladin.

Kaladin also encountered resistance when using the reverse lashing, and spanreeds stopped working when the suppressor got flipped, over all Stormlight is inhibited.

There's also clearly something up with Moash/the Honorblade, as he seems capable of using gravitatioinal lashings under the suppressor and since we don't actually know why, I'd say we can't draw conclusions based on him.

So, why would Stormlight function for a non-Windrunner/Bondsmith, non-Honorblade wielder under these circumstances? You know, the circumstances that they are the only known exceptions to.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin was the only one who's tatoo melted, everyone else kept theirs.

Oh, you're right, I misremembered which markings were which, my bad.

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Which is why I used the barracks

And someone already pointed out that Teft noticed.

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well that would mean he would have to realize that it uses light, and decided he didn't want them, which Gyls wants him to.

I mean, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out why spheres go dun around you, especially if you have a communicative spren.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Glys wants him to decide he doesn't want them.

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why should something as powerful or more, than Atium be the same as having more sqquires than other radiants?

Because nothing requires this to be a balanced system. And it fits thematically with the powers, strength of squires makes sense for being the resonance between drawing things together/attracting things and binding things together, you draw them in and stick them to you, in the same way I find the visions to make sense as Progression of Illumination.

I also doubt it's more powerful than atium, I don't think it would counter atium for instance, as it doesn't show immediate future, but it'd probably be countered by atium, as that makes the now unpredictable. Atium is also something known to be under your control, unlike the visions. I'd say differently powerful.

Also on the note of this not having to be balanced, Bondsmiths are a thing.

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why doesn't anyone catch Kaladin or Jasnah glowing?

Teft?

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He doesn't know

How do you know that?

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

None of the Radiants had control when starting, and he hasn't tried to learn meaning he has no way to do so.

Hmm, maybe. It's still odd that he seems trapped in it against his wishes.

9 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Shallan can perfectly control her resonance, as can Stargyle

Yeah, Lightweavers are odd, though I guess it doesn't make sense for mnemonics to be entirely passive. Could make the argument that the ability to take a Memory is the resonance, rather than the taking of the Memory.

11 minutes ago, mathiau said:

UwU

Haha, excuse my very legitimate, highly official inquisitorial seal. :P

 

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2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yes and *cough* every other Windrunner *cough* and even then their healing slowed as the corruption got worse, just look at Kaladin.

Kaladin also encountered resistance when using the reverse lashing, and spanreeds stopped working when the suppressor got flipped, over all Stormlight is inhibited.

There's also clearly something up with Moash/the Honorblade, as he seems capable of using gravitatioinal lashings under the suppressor and since we don't actually know why, I'd say we can't draw conclusions based on him.

The Fused could use their powers, and Voidbinding is more aligned with Odium

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And someone already pointed out that Teft noticed.

  1.  He knew what to look for
  2. He was actively looking for light, not just a passive notice
2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I mean, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out why spheres go dun around you, especially if you have a communicative spren.

He has other abilities.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Glys wants him to decide he doesn't want them.

No, Glys wants them, my bad.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Because nothing requires this to be a balanced system. And it fits thematically with the powers, strength of squires makes sense for being the resonance between drawing things together/attracting things and binding things together, you draw them in and stick them to you, in the same way I find the visions to make sense as Progression of Illumination.

It would kind of Ruin Era 4 if a bunch of people were just passively immune to Atium

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also doubt it's more powerful than atium, I don't think it would counter atium for instance, as it doesn't show immediate future, but it'd probably be countered by atium, as that makes the now unpredictable. Atium is also something known to be under your control, unlike the visions. I'd say differently powerful.

it counters Odium all the time not just when he's seeing a vision

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Also on the note of this not having to be balanced, Bondsmiths are a thing.

Only 4 though, not potentially hundreds

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

How do you know that?

He thinks that they replaced his seizures.

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12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

To be fair, that was in direct sunlight.

Also, Reverse Lashings explicitly glow.... weirdly. It's described a few times as glowing less than it should, but according to Szeth, it's even odder than that:

Quote

Szeth slammed his hand to the side, pushing Stormlight into the doorframe, using the third and final type of Lashing, a Reverse Lashing. This one worked differently from the other two. It did not make the doorframe emit Stormlight; indeed, it seemed to pull nearby light into it, giving it a strange penumbra.

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9 hours ago, Frustration said:

The Fused could use their powers, and Voidbinding is more aligned with Odium

Venli could use her Surgebinding with Voidlight but not Stormlight, and I'd hazard that the same would have been true for Renarin powering his abilities, had he been at the tower.

Stormlight, barring exceptional cases, doesn't work.

And I don't see the point in mentioning that the powers of the Fused work, when they run on (unsuppressed) Voidlight.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:
  • He knew what to look for
  • He was actively looking for light, not just a passive notice

That doesn't mean he didn't notice though?

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, Glys wants them, my bad.

Ah, right.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

It would kind of Ruin Era 4 if a bunch of people were just passively immune to Atium

But, that's not what I said? In the bit you quoted right after that I said that I don't think it counters atium.

I'm also not sure that atium is going to have much, if any, presence in Era 4.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

it counters Odium all the time not just when he's seeing a vision

Yes, it makes your future unpredictable, you're a domino that can fall in any direction. And we don't know how atium interferes with Shardic future sight, so we can't compare them there.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Only 4 though, not potentially hundreds

Or eight, Honorblade, Stormlight, Lifelight, Towerlight, Voidlight, Warlight, "Thornlight" (Odium-Cultivation) and "Military Sciencelight" (all three) or thirteen, Honorblade, Stormfather, Nightwatcher, Sibling and the Unmade.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

He thinks that they replaced his seizures.

And this implies that he doesn't know this uses Light how?

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Also, Reverse Lashings explicitly glow.... weirdly. It's described a few times as glowing less than it should, but according to Szeth, it's even odder than that:

Quote

Szeth slammed his hand to the side, pushing Stormlight into the doorframe, using the third and final type of Lashing, a Reverse Lashing. This one worked differently from the other two. It did not make the doorframe emit Stormlight; indeed, it seemed to pull nearby light into it, giving it a strange penumbra.

Huh, I'd forgotten that, neat.

I do wonder if that would actually be more noticable in direct sunlight?

 

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3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Venli could use her Surgebinding with Voidlight but not Stormlight, and I'd hazard that the same would have been true for Renarin powering his abilities, had he been at the tower.

Stormlight, barring exceptional cases, doesn't work.

And I don't see the point in mentioning that the powers of the Fused work, when they run on (unsuppressed) Voidlight.

Sufficent connection to Honor allowed one to push through suppression, sufficent connection to Odium should allow one to circumvent it.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

That doesn't mean he didn't notice though?

How many people at the time are going "Huh, I should really check to see if anyone is glowing with light right now."

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

But, that's not what I said? In the bit you quoted right after that I said that I don't think it counters atium.

And in the next part I explained why it would.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm also not sure that atium is going to have much, if any, presence in Era 4.

Considering the next mistborn book is named after Atium I have to say otherwise.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yes, it makes your future unpredictable, you're a domino that can fall in any direction. And we don't know how atium interferes with Shardic future sight, so we can't compare them there.

We know how Atium interferes with Atium though, just having it won't protect you, you have to be seeing the future in order to be safe, otherwise you have only one path forward.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Or eight, Honorblade, Stormlight, Lifelight, Towerlight, Voidlight, Warlight, "Thornlight" (Odium-Cultivation) and "Military Sciencelight" (all three) or thirteen, Honorblade, Stormfather, Nightwatcher, Sibling and the Unmade.

Unmade do not have a Bondsmith equivelent, and there is no spren for the other lights, the closest to a fifth would be the Dawnshard "known to bind any creature" but that's a dawnshard.

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And this implies that he doesn't know this uses Light how?

If he thinks something that doesn't use light has changed, why would he think it uses light now?

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15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Sufficent connection to Honor allowed one to push through suppression

Yes, this is indesputable.

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

sufficent connection to Odium should allow one to circumvent it.

Why? It's suppression of Honor's Light. I'll grant that this should be true for the suppressor under normal circumstances, when suppressing Voidlight and when it is used with Odiums Truest Whatever. But I don't think any Connection to Odium would let you bypass the suppression of Honor's power, any more than a strong Connection to Honor would let you use Voidlight under the suppressor working normally.

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How many people at the time are going "Huh, I should really check to see if anyone is glowing with light right now."

Yeah, that's fair.

41 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And in the next part I explained why it would.

I could see it going either way, really.

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Considering the next mistborn book is named after Atium I have to say otherwise.

I mean era 2 =/= era 4 and we have no idea if Harmony is making more of it.

And I mean, Shadows of Self, Alloy of Law, Warbreaker and Words of Radiance are all titles with very little relevance to what happens in them, so I don't think that's super solid.

Also, in era 4 there should be barely any use for atium, barring hemalurgy.

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We know how Atium interferes with Atium though, just having it won't protect you, you have to be seeing the future in order to be safe, otherwise you have only one path forward.

It's honestly odd that just having it won't protect you, though I know that to be the case. Or it's odd that Renarin is protected all the time, as he's presumably not surrounded by halucinations of stained glass 24/7 (or 20/5 as the case may be.)

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Unmade do not have a Bondsmith equivelent

Didn't say they did. I meant it as each of them could potentially make a Bondsmith if bonded. Let me pull up my new favourite WoB:

Quote

EHyde

As Lift's spren refers to the Nightwatcher as Mother, right...

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely calls somebody a mother. The implication in the text is that it's the Nightwatcher.

EHyde

Certainly, so I'm just going to run with that right now. So the question that I'm asking is, is surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium, a la feruchemy being in some sense not directly derivative of Ruin and Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

It is...Honor and Cultivation is what you mean?

EHyde

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

There are spren of all three Shards, and those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

EHyde

What Shard are Cryptics associated with?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Bolding mine.

I've believed for a long time that (generally) if it goes in a fabrial it goes in a gemheart it goes in a bond, with certain spren obviously being too large to go in most gemhearts. My belief is that as long as it has a valid output in one of these systems, it has a theoretical valid output in all of them, Radiant bond, fabrial, singer form.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Given that Investiture is Investiture, would there be potential Investiture of like, kandra to Parshendi using Hemalurgic spikes?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Hemalurgic spikes can be used on any planet.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it be potential for Parshendi to develop a form using the spikes?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Wow, that would be a really weird hack of the magic system that would be theoretically possible. But that's a really weird one. I had never even considered that one. Parshendi adopting other Investiture could happen, the spikes is not one I've considered.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

Though good luck swearing anything to the charge in a spike.

If this is true, and I have very little reason to doubt it, I don't find the idea of the Unmade, either in part or in whole, being valid Bondsmith spren, or at least as valid as Renarin being a Truthwatcher.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

and there is no spren for the other lights

Mishram? I believe that the ancient Radiants made a bit of a deal of how she was supplying Voidlight. 

It would also irk me something fierce if there aren't eventually spren for each Light, personally guessing Mishram for Void, Sja-anat for "Thorn," maybe Yelig-nar for War, don't know for the tripartite Light, possibly a spren that doesn't yet exist.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

If he thinks something that doesn't use light has changed, why would he think it uses light now?

Because his seizures didn't make spheres go dun before?

 

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4 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Why? It's suppression of Honor's Light. I'll grant that this should be true for the suppressor under normal circumstances, when suppressing Voidlight and when it is used with Odiums Truest Whatever. But I don't think any Connection to Odium would let you bypass the suppression of Honor's power, any more than a strong Connection to Honor would let you use Voidlight under the suppressor working normally.

Well Moash had surgebinding somehow, and Honorblade surgebinding is noteably weaker than Spren surgebinding(Heralds as a potential exception). Connection to Odium certainly works as a answer

32 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I mean era 2 =/= era 4 and we have no idea if Harmony is making more of it.

I don't think Brandon is just going to drop Atium and never use it again

33 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And I mean, Shadows of Self, Alloy of Law, Warbreaker and Words of Radiance are all titles with very little relevance to what happens in them, so I don't think that's super solid.

I mean, Shadows of Self is the only one that really doesn't fit the tittle, but I will acknowledge the possibiliy that TLM might be about a metal other than Atium.

34 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Also, in era 4 there should be barely any use for atium, barring hemalurgy.

I would find it rather odd if a series named Mistborn only had Mistborn in 1/4 of the books

35 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

t's honestly odd that just having it won't protect you, though I know that to be the case. Or it's odd that Renarin is protected all the time, as he's presumably not surrounded by halucinations of stained glass 24/7 (or 20/5 as the case may be.)

I'd assume he just has access to more fortune by default than anyone else.

36 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

24/7 (or 20/5 as the case may be.)

You get a rep just for that

37 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Didn't say they did. I meant it as each of them could potentially make a Bondsmith if bonded. Let me pull up my new favourite WoB:

I think they would make Voidbinders if bonded, not Surgebinders

37 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Mishram? I believe that the ancient Radiants made a bit of a deal of how she was supplying Voidlight. 

I was refering to Cultivation-Honor, Warlight, and all three

38 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It would also irk me something fierce if there aren't eventually spren for each Light, personally guessing Mishram for Void, Sja-anat for "Thorn," maybe Yelig-nar for War, don't know for the tripartite Light, possibly a spren that doesn't yet exist.

 I mean, Honor and Cultivation share Spren, Odium really doesn't, just corrupts them to him, So I don' think it likely, possible, but unlikely. And why Sja-anat and Yelig-nar, that seems unbalanced.

40 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Because his seizures didn't make spheres go dun before?

He has two other ways to use light, and we know that Radiants can draw light without realizing.

I get that he doesn't explicetly state that he uses light for every vision function, but it doesn't say he doesn't either.

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6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Huh, I'd forgotten that, neat

Honestly I'd forgotten as well until someone semi-recently pointed out that it's suspiciously similar to how Nightblood "inverts" the normal Breath aura.

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm also not sure that atium is going to have much, if any, presence in Era 4.

I think it'll probably have some use (for example, I think Brandon's mostly been RAFOing the Allomantic and Feruchemical properties of godmetal alloys because they're relevant to Era 3), but I do agree that the direct military use of atium will be a lot less important than in, say, TFE times. 

46 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And I mean, Shadows of Self, Alloy of Law, Warbreaker and Words of Radiance are all titles with very little relevance to what happens in them, so I don't think that's super solid

Disagree, in some cases they're more thematic than direct, but they're very relevant (WoR less so, because it was shoehorned in after the publisher no-no'd his original name for it, but in that case there's the pretty obvious connection of the Radiants).

  • Alloy of Law: what the purpose of law actually is is a re-occurring theme throughout the books, and Miles exists as someone who challenges Wax's view of it. 
  • Shadows of Self: Paalm could probably be described as a shadow of her former self, and I'd argue it applies to Sazed as Harmony as well.
  • Warbreaker: Both a character and a description of the plot of the book, stopping the war Vivenna had been helping start.
51 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Or it's odd that Renarin is protected all the time, as he's presumably not surrounded by halucinations of stained glass 24/7 (or 20/5 as the case may be.)

Honestly, I know Brandon's said Renarin blocking Odium is like atium interfering with atium, but that explanation makes no sense to me. I'm not gonna dig into it much, because I've had several multi-hour arguments on the Discord lol, but I feel it really just does not match it at all.

Atium interference:

  • Only when both are burning
  • A two-way street by necessity
  • Only "blocks" that person, but doesn't even block fully, just gives too many possibilities for a mortal mind

Renarin's interference:

  • Active all the time
  • One-way street (he sees Odium just fine, repeatedly)
  • Blocks him and everyone and everything in his vicinity completely
17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well Moash had surgebinding somehow, and Honorblade surgebinding is noteably weaker than Spren surgebinding(Heralds as a potential exception). Connection to Odium certainly works as a answer

Honorblades are less efficient. This doesn't necessarily mean weaker, though that's what it translates to in most everyday usage. But what's relevant here isn't necessarily efficiency, it's Connection to Honor and/or raw power/Investiture/something, which Honorblades could plausibly beat out most spren on. 

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3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Honorblades are less efficient. This doesn't necessarily mean weaker, though that's what it translates to in most everyday usage. But what's relevant here isn't necessarily efficiency, it's Connection to Honor and/or raw power/Investiture/something, which Honorblades could plausibly beat out most spren on. 

I'd call not being able to heal from Shardblades weaker.

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33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well Moash had surgebinding somehow, and Honorblade surgebinding is noteably weaker than Spren surgebinding(Heralds as a potential exception). Connection to Odium certainly works as a answer

I find myself echoing LewsTherinTelescope here, the power of the Surgebinding isn't the question, the closeness/Connection to Honor is, and I'd argue that there are few things closer to Honor than an Honorblade granting Honor's Truest Surge.

Moash also keeps Surgebinding when the tower comes alight, even though his Connection to Odium is diminished, as he can feel things at that time.

38 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't think Brandon is just going to drop Atium and never use it again

Fair, neither do I, though its relative relevance might be diminished.

41 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I mean, Shadows of Self is the only one that really doesn't fit the tittle, but I will acknowledge the possibiliy that TLM might be about a metal other than Atium.

Oh, I definitely think that the title is about atium, especially when there's the empty display case with a plaque that says "Atium, the Lost Metal" on it in one of the books. I just don't think that atium has to be very relevant going forward.

25 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Disagree, in some cases they're more thematic than direct, but they're very relevant (WoR less so, because it was shoehorned in after the publisher no-no'd his original name for it, but in that case there's the pretty obvious connection of the Radiants).

  • Alloy of Law: what the purpose of law actually is is a re-occurring theme throughout the books, and Miles exists as someone who challenges Wax's view of it. 
  • Shadows of Self: Paalm could probably be described as a shadow of her former self, and I'd argue it applies to Sazed as Harmony as well.
  • Warbreaker: Both a character and a description of the plot of the book, stopping the war Vivenna had been helping start.

I wonder why they didn't want the 1000+ page book to be called the Book of Endless Pages. :rolleyes:

I do see where you're coming from and I was a little hesitant to include Warbreaker on the list.

I'd personally say that my interpretation is that these titles were never really plot relevant, Warbreaker being a cute nod to how this is Vasher's backstory, Shadows of Self being quite vague and Alloy of Law, while being namedropped at one point, isn't actually a thing, really.

Contrasting titles like Well of Ascension (major plot point), Way of Kings (large part of motivation of a major character), Rhythm of War (product of main plot) or Bands of Mourning (main plot device), I find them lacking. This may be partly me being on the spectrum shining through, as that might make me more inclined to take what is written at face value and lead to me missing some subtler things, I hadn't considered Alloy of Law as thematic representation of Right vs Lawful, for instance. (Ah, the eternal bane of Lawful Good.)

58 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I would find it rather odd if a series named Mistborn only had Mistborn in 1/4 of the books

And yet era 2 doesn't have them. I fully expect mistborn to almost entirely be a thing of the past going forward, unless someone works out how to distill lerasium from the mists.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I was refering to Cultivation-Honor, Warlight, and all three

Ah, I misunderstood.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

 I mean, Honor and Cultivation share Spren, Odium really doesn't, just corrupts them to him

I think that might be a quirk of the Vessel, not the Shard and I'm pretty sure secretspren are of Odium.

I could see Taravangian (or his possible successor) trying for a more middle ground approach, in fact, it might not require any intervention from him at all, Odium is now part of Roshar, the third Pure Tone, presumably the admixture of Investitures will arise organically from there.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And why Sja-anat and Yelig-nar, that seems unbalanced.

Partly utter, blatant favouritism on my part, I'm really intrigued by what Yelig-nar + Bondsmith would do, I like the idea of possibly being able to work as mass empowerment, granting temporary Surgebinding to people through Connection shenanigans and Yelig-nar granting access to all the Surges and I'd simply want to see what interesting interaction we'd get between Bondsmith powers and all the Surges.

I'm also a big fan of Sja-anat and have been hoping for her to enter a bond since Oathbringer and she's actually been working, if not with, then at least along the Radiants.

Partly it's who I think would fit, the mindless Unmade are out, as while I thinl they can be bonded, I don't find it realistic, especially as they presumably lack the capacity to judge oaths.

This leaves Mishram, who's an obvious pick for the Voidlight Bondsmith, Yelig-nar, Sja-anat, Dai-Gonarthis, Re-Shephir and Chemoarish.

Of these Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish are practical unknowns, so I can't make informed guesses about them.

Mishram I consider spoken for.

This then leaves Yelig-nar, Sja-anat and Re-Shephir.

Sja-anat's transformative nature, to me, puts her more in line with Cultivation, so makes sense for taking the role as middle ground between Odium and Cultivation, possibly being modified in the process to fit her new role.

Yelig-nar I originally mostly thought about due to his being known as Blightwind, wind being associated to Honor, though he also is supposed to grant Adhesion, Honor's Truest Surge as well as the Surge of binding (I personally believe it can be used to manipulate the other nine in some way), possibly even granting Adhesion primarily, as a way to manipulate the other nine. In either case, this places him closer to Honor.

Re-Shephir... I honestly didn't consider, though I don't find her to be a great fit for either, based on what we've seen. At best she's a malicious Nightwatcher, both seeking to understand humanity, but very differently.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I think they would make Voidbinders if bonded, not Surgebinders

I suppose this comes down to if we consider Renarin a Truthwatcher or not. Is a Truthwatcher someone with access to manifestations of Progression and Illumination? Someone bonded to a mistspren? Someone who has the Surgebinding powers of Progession and Illumination? Is someone with the Truthwatcher Honorblade a Truthwatcher?

If Renarin is a Truthwatcher then is someone who has the equivalent manifestations of the Surges of Tension and Adhesion not a Bondsmith?

Renarin's powers still manifest within the context of the Radiant bond, he takes in Stormlight to fuel his abilities (though I'm sure he can take Voidlight as well), he can manifest his spren as a Blade and he presumably still swears oaths.

Quote

Questioner

Because of Glys' corrupted nature as a spren of Sja-anat, does that mean that Renarin's swearing different Ideals than the mainstream Truthwatcher ideals?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... I'll RAFO that for now. But there will definitely be some differences.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Though I will admit that this could definitely go either way.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

He has two other ways to use light, and we know that Radiants can draw light without realizing.

Yeah, this is probably gonna be one of those points we won't agree on before we get a canonical answer.

I still find it being a resonance as the simpler explanation, it might even solve the "always on" issue, but I see where you're coming from.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

I get that he doesn't explicetly state that he uses light for every vision function, but it doesn't say he doesn't either.

And there's the crux of this entire thing, eh? No explicit confirmation either way.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Honestly, I know Brandon's said Renarin blocking Odium is like atium interfering with atium, but that explanation makes no sense to me. I'm not gonna dig into it much, because I've had several multi-hour arguments on the Discord lol, but I feel it really just does not match it at all.

Atium interference:

  • Only when both are burning
  • A two-way street by necessity
  • Only "blocks" that person, but doesn't even block fully, just gives too many possibilities for a mortal mind

Renarin's interference:

  • Active all the time
  • One-way street (he sees Odium just fine, repeatedly)
  • Blocks him and everyone and everything in his vicinity completely

Yeah, that's really, really odd when you lay it out like that.

I'd say Brandon's phrasing is possible to explain as being about the broad strokes, these are general functions of Fortune, rather than being meant as "it works specifically as the atium/atium interaction" but even then the specifics of how the effects line up (or don't) in the text are strange.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I've had several multi-hour arguments on the Discord

Yeah, I can see why you'd not go in deep again. Sheesh.

Though I'm not sure I have room to talk after typing up this.

 

¤_¤

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21 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I find myself echoing LewsTherinTelescope here, the power of the Surgebinding isn't the question, the closeness/Connection to Honor is, and I'd argue that there are few things closer to Honor than an Honorblade granting Honor's Truest Surge.

Moash also keeps Surgebinding when the tower comes alight, even though his Connection to Odium is diminished, as he can feel things at that time.

Yes, just as Relain and Venli retain theur powers.

21 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And yet era 2 doesn't have them. I fully expect mistborn to almost entirely be a thing of the past going forward, unless someone works out how to distill lerasium from the mists.

Mistborn are planned to make a comeback in era 3

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56 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd personally say that my interpretation is that these titles were never really plot relevant, Warbreaker being a cute nod to how this is Vasher's backstory, Shadows of Self being quite vague and Alloy of Law, while being namedropped at one point, isn't actually a thing, really.

Contrasting titles like Well of Ascension (major plot point), Way of Kings (large part of motivation of a major character), Rhythm of War (product of main plot) or Bands of Mourning (main plot device), I find them lacking. This may be partly me being on the spectrum shining through, as that might make me more inclined to take what is written at face value and lead to me missing some subtler things, I hadn't considered Alloy of Law as thematic representation of Right vs Lawful, for instance. (Ah, the eternal bane of Lawful Good.)

I agree they're mostly not literally relevant, yeah (though for Warbreaker I think it's decently literal, that's what Vivenna's plot is all about), mostly just metaphorical thematic things.

59 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yeah, I can see why you'd not go in deep again. Sheesh.

I should make sure to clarify: it was friendly arguments :lol:

I just have a habit of getting trapped in circular debates for hours on end and need to break the habit lol

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Mistborn are planned to make a comeback in era 3

A Mistborn is planned to appear, which may or may not be an already-existing one depending on if certain theories are true or not. Doesn't necessarily indicate a broader return, though it's possible. 

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25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, just as Relain and Venli retain theur powers.

But, judging from Venli's example, not the ability to use Stormlight. Before the tower is restored the only people who can use Stormlight are people with the Windrunner powerset, one way or another, so Rlain's vision, in that moment, can not have been powered by Stormlight, at least from my understanding.

36 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Mistborn are planned to make a comeback in era 3

 

37 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

A Mistborn is planned to appear, which may or may not be an already-existing one depending on if certain theories are true or not.

Yeah, we only know that a mistborn serial killer is planned to appear, and it might well be everyone's favourite stab-happy ghost.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I should make sure to clarify: it was friendly arguments :lol:

I can still see why you'd want to avoid re-stating hours of arguments here.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I just have a habit of getting trapped in circular debates for hours on end and need to break the habit lol

Heh, my recent post history will show that this is 100% not true for me as well. :P

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I agree they're mostly not literally relevant, yeah (though for Warbreaker I think it's decently literal, that's what Vivenna's plot is all about), mostly just metaphorical thematic things.

Yeah, I mostly wanted to make the point that atium is not guaranteed to actually be central to the plot of Lost Metal and that we can't conclude that atium and lerasium will be seen again in a significant way just because of the title of an upcoming book.

 

¤_¤

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12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

@LewsTherinTelescope @Inquisitor #5

On the Mistborn Serial Killer, I would just like to point out Kelsier is Fullborn now.

Not necessarily, I still believe it's pretty possible the Bands were just made by Kel and a team of Ferrings. But that's somewhat pedantic, either way he's presumably got access to the powerset, inherent or not. Don't see how that disproves the idea that the Mistborn serial killer we know exactly nothing about in the slightest could be him, though. (Now, as mentioned, we know exactly nothing about this killer, so I'm not claiming it is him, either. My point is that we cannot use it to firmly claim that Mistborn will be returning in any broader capacity, as it could be anything from a genuine new Mistborn to Kelsier to someone who managed to recreate the Bands to a Hemalurgic abomination who has worked out how to shield themselves from Sazed's direct control/managed to throw Sazed into a poor enough state that he can't intervene without screwing up his balance.)

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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