Reckoner89

Surgebinding, Odium and Renarin’s Powers

47 posts in this topic

Tldr; any Shard can give access to Surgebinding and that means Renarin is the most powerful mortal in the Cosmere (and now Rlain too)

This is my first post here after recently and very heavily falling down the rabbit hole of the Cosmere after a friend recommended the books. Apologies if my ideas/theory are old hat or well-trodden. 

 

Along with being my favourite (mostly) non-viewpoint character, I can’t help but think there is something very important about Renarin and what he represents. We’ve known for a while that there is something “off”  about his powers and this has been treated with suspicion by other characters in the story, to the point where Jasnah was prepared to execute her cousin. My argument here is that far from being “off”, Renarin’s powers are what Rosharan Surgebinding can be at its full potential. 

The theory relies on a few assumptions and assertions:

1) Odium is one sixteenth of God’s power. As such, it is neither “good” or “evil”, but simply a force in the universe. 

We think of Odium as being the “bad guy”. He does indeed seem pretty unpleasant: cruel, capricious, power-hungry and arrogant but I suspect this is more to do with Rayse than Odium itself. Sazed/Harmony thinks that it is the power that wishes to destroy. Hoid thinks differently. As much as I love Sazed (and in most debates I’d side with him) if it’s an argument against Hoid, I think Hoid might be in the right. We can see when Taravangian takes up Odium that he is able to consider the urges of the power in a different way. Cultivation also seems to think the right Vessel would be able to contain this force. Hoid tells us that Rayse was always a pretty bad guy. 

2) Combining more Shards with Odium will temper its destructive Intent and create something different and almost certainly better. 

We know that the combination of Shards is possible (see Sazed/Harmony). As Frost tells us in the Second Letter; “He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.” Giving context to this hatred will allow it to be channelled into something more productive. We can see the combination of Stormlight and Voidlight gives Warlight. There’s an assumption that if you were to combine Odium and Honor would get a new Shard called War (as Ruin and Preservation became Harmony). Many theorise that Dalinar will ascend to become this Shard at some point in our story. 

3) Odium is as much a part of Roshar as Honor and Cultivation. 

We know that Roshar pre-dates the Shattering, so the Investiture of the planet arrived when Honor and Cultivation settled there. Odium has now been part of the Rosharan system for millenia, it’s reasonable to assume it’s Investiture has now saturated the place to enough of an extent that it is comparable to that of Honor and Cultivation. We can see this in the Singers’ use of Rhythms, they can attune to the Rhythms of Odium. Given that Roshar’s natives can attune to these Rhythms, we can be sure Odium is pretty much embedded in the planet. 

4) Surgebinding and Voidbinding are two names of the same thing

There is a thread on this forum about Division being Odium’s “truest surge” and one of the first objections was that Odium doesn’t have surges, he has Voidbinding. I found this point fairly meaningless. It seems obvious to me that the processes of Surgebinding and Voidbinding are the same process channelled through different Shards. The “surges” are described as the fundamental forces of the Cosmere which individuals can access through a splinter of a Shard (spren). R-Odium tells Dalinar he is preparing for “the [war] that will begin when the gods of other worlds discover the strength of Surgebinding” and earlier says that he is planning for combat with those that are “not nearly as well trained”. The implication of these two statements is that Surgebidng is available via any of the Shards. All they need to do is create spren of themselves and allow mortals in their domains to bond them. Let’s call this kind of magic “Investbinding”. 

The Knights Radiant are Investbinders who access the Surges through some combination of Honor and Cultivation in varying degrees. The Fused are Investbinders who access the Surges only through Odium. 

-

So back to Renarin. We know Glys has been “Enlightened” by Sja-Anat. Enlightenment has a lot of meanings in Western culture, a whole philosophical movement is named after it. But if we take the literal meaning, “to make luminous”, in other words, to give Light; this might shed light (get it?) on what is going on. Glys has been granted access to Odium’s Light, in other words, Glys can allow Renarin to Investbind through Honor, Cultivation and Odium.

I suspect there is a reason it was a Mistspren that was the first to do this. Truthwatchers are the mirror to Bondsmiths in the Surgebinding chart, i.e. furthest from Adhesion or Honor’s “truest surge”. It would be a spren that had the least influence from Honor that would be prepared to consider allowing Odium’s Light in. 

There are several implications if this theory is true, which I’ll outline in brief below, but the one I want to concentrate on here is what it means for Renarin’s powers. 

Renarin seems perfectly capable of using Progression (healing). He is also becoming increasingly proficient with Odium’s version of Illumination (his future-sight). However, he is still having issues with using Illumination in the way other Radiants (including other Truthwatchers) use it. My theory is that Progression is the “truest surge” of Cultivation and so Illumination is closer to Honor. Honor and Odium are especially at odds, and Odium’s light’s influence is making it difficult for him to use his Illumination in the way Shallan can. However, he can combine Cultivation and Odium’s version of Illumination and show what growth and future sight result in (Moash’s better self). 

However, Navani and Raboniel have shown us that with effort, you can combine Odium’s and Honor’s lights. So I am sure Renarin will get there eventually and be able to replicate Shallan’s version of Illumination. However, the crucial point is that he can access his surges in three different ways as opposed to the usual two. If Odium is correct and that Surgebinding is the strongest form of Investiture in the Cosmere that would mean the Renarin (and now Rlain too) is the potentially the most powerful mortal in the Cosmere, he can access two of the fundamental forces of the Cosmere in three different ways. 

If all the truespren are able to gain access to Odium’s Light then this will mean they can all grant three ways of accessing the fundamental forces of the Cosmere. It’s important to remember the first assumption I made here, that there is nothing “evil” about Odium. It’s just a force in the universe. It might mean that those spren that have access to Odium’s Light view the world in a slightly different way, but one of the themes of RoW was that spren can change and develop over time. They can evolve. Sja-Anat seems opposed to R-Odium’s goals. The origin is not their destiny. 

But more significantly, what this theory would imply is that each Shard could give even more Light. A Spren that comes into contact with Endowment could get another source of Light via Enlightenment. This is why the potential for spren to leave Roshar is so important for the Ghostbloods, we are talking about access to huge levels of power. 

So, to conclude this ramble, Renarin has access to two fundamental forces of the Cosmere in one more way than almost all others do. This makes his potential power level highest of every mortal we have met so far in the Cosmere

 

Other implications of this theory

  • The Shards can create many different types of Investiture. In theory Honor could use Allomancy and Endowment could use Surgebinding. 
  • The Old Magic might be the magic system Cultivation used before she got on board with Surgebinding.
  • There may be an Honor-based magic system that predates Surgebinding
  • If each Shard has a “truest surge” there should be 16 Surges, not 10 (I’ll admit this probably is a big problem with this theory)




 

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Posted (edited)

Well first off any Shard can give access to any magic system, so you are right on that point.

However Voidbinding and Surgebinding are not the same thing anymore than Feruchemy and allomancy are.

Cultivation has a magic system independent of Surgebinding

There are only ten surges and only the Rosharan ones would have a distinction.

 

Welcome to the Shard:D

Edited by Frustration
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16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Welcome to the Shard:D

Thank you! ^_^

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well first off any Shard can give access to any magic system, so you are right on that point.

Good I'm glad I haven't completely got the wrong end of the stick.

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

However Voidbinding and Surgebinding are not the same thing anymore than Feruchemy and allomancy are.

So what makes you say this? As far as I can tell the Heavenly Ones are granted the "surge" of Gravitation through Odium and Kaladin accesses it through (mostly) Honor. The same fundamental force is accessed through two different Shards. I agree they are not "the same thing" in the sense the pathway is different, but they are resulting in the same effect. 

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Cultivation has a magic system independent of Surgebinding

Yup - I'm guessing that's what has been called the Old Magic

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There are only ten surges and only the Rosharan ones would have a distinction.

So as I said, this is probably the biggest problem with my theory. I'm not sure what you mean by a distinction. What I would say is; I spent Final Empire assuming there were at most 11 metals. Then by the time of BoM not only are there 16 (plus the god metals) and there are increasingly crazy ways of manipulating those metals. I guess I'm ready for Brandon to pull the rug out from under me again on the Surges. 

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1 minute ago, Reckoner89 said:

So what makes you say this? As far as I can tell the Heavenly Ones are granted the "surge" of Gravitation through Odium and Kaladin accesses it through (mostly) Honor. The same fundamental force is accessed through two different Shards. I agree they are not "the same thing" in the sense the pathway is different, but they are resulting in the same effect. 

Well for starters Brandon calls them separate things

Spoiler

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

Which I will admit could be an Oathbringer Honorblade but I doubt it.

2 minutes ago, Reckoner89 said:

Yup - I'm guessing that's what has been called the Old Magic

No, there's more to it

2 minutes ago, Reckoner89 said:

So as I said, this is probably the biggest problem with my theory. I'm not sure what you mean by a distinction. What I would say is; I spent Final Empire assuming there were at most 11 metals. Then by the time of BoM not only are there 16 (plus the god metals) and there are increasingly crazy ways of manipulating those metals. I guess I'm ready for Brandon to pull the rug out from under me again on the Surges. 

It was a common theory but we have been told it is not the case

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm just curious, there are 16 Allomantic metals, 16 Feruchemical metals, there are 16 Shards of Adonalsium. Are there 16 surges?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Questioner

So there's no correlation?

Brandon Sanderson

10 is an important number on Roshar.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018)

 

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Cool - thank you - I didn't know about that WoB. I guess that mean the relevance of "truest surge" is much lower in terms of whats going on with Renarin's powers. 

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well for starters Brandon calls them separate things

  Hide contents

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

So I think I should have been more precise in my original post. I am not saying Voidbinding and Surgebinding are the exact same thing. I am saying they are different versions of the same overarching magic system. So like Allomancy, Hemalurgy and Feruchemy are three different versions of The Metallic Arts, filtered through Preservation, Ruin and a combination of the two respectively. 

Raboniel tells us clearly that the Fused access the Surges: "We of the Fused know our Surge with an intimacy a Radiant will never know." (RoW, Chp 31)

The Fused are accessing the Surges through Odium and the Radiants are accessing them through Honor and Cultivation. I think the problem is that we call what the Radiants do "Surgebinding" instead of Honor-binding and Culti-binding (for obvious reasons given how ugly those words are). I think Odium's line at the end of RoW about other Shards discovering the strength of Surgebinding is the key one. The implication is that there is a version of this overall magic system that uses the suffix "binding" that can be filtered through each of the Shards. 

My fundamental point is that as things stand, Renarin and Rlain are the only two beings we know of who can access their surges through three different Shards. The implication of that is that their potential power level is higher than that of most everyone else. 

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17 hours ago, Reckoner89 said:

2) Combining more Shards with Odium will temper its destructive Intent and create something different and almost certainly better. 

We know that the combination of Shards is possible (see Sazed/Harmony). As Frost tells us in the Second Letter; “He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.” Giving context to this hatred will allow it to be channelled into something more productive. We can see the combination of Stormlight and Voidlight gives Warlight. There’s an assumption that if you were to combine Odium and Honor would get a new Shard called War (as Ruin and Preservation became Harmony). Many theorise that Dalinar will ascend to become this Shard at some point in our story. 

I disagree with that assumption. First there almost no chances combining Ruin and Odium will not create something even more dangerous and second there are more than one way to fuse to Shards, for example we know there's another possible combination of Ruin and Preservation called Discord.

You fuse Honour and Odium in a way that use Honour to temper Odium but you could also fuse them in a way that use Honour to fuel Odium

Quote

I suspect there is a reason it was a Mistspren that was the first to do this. Truthwatchers are the mirror to Bondsmiths in the Surgebinding chart, i.e. furthest from Adhesion or Honor’s “truest surge”. It would be a spren that had the least influence from Honor that would be prepared to consider allowing Odium’s Light in. 

The spren with the least influence from Honour are Cultivationsprens, not Mistpsrens. And the fact Tumi was singing the Rhythm of War imply it's his Cultivation part that was transformed

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I disagree with that assumption. First there almost no chances combining Ruin and Odium will not create something even more dangerous and second there are more than one way to fuse to Shards, for example we know there's another possible combination of Ruin and Preservation called Discord.

You fuse Honour and Odium in a way that use Honour to temper Odium but you could also fuse them in a way that use Honour to fuel Odium

A very good and terrifying point. This probably means the personality of the Vessel is key to how the Shards combine. Sazed was able to become Harmony rather than Discord because he was uniquely capable of holding those two. 

22 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The spren with the least influence from Honour are Cultivationsprens, not Mistpsrens. And the fact Tumi was singing the Rhythm of War imply it's his Cultivation part that was transformed

Hmm - this is a good point. There's a WoB about why Sja-anat was able to recruit the Mistspren:

 

Quote

 

Oversleep

Will there be Enlightened spren of other Radiant Orders than Truthwatchers, and why does Sja-anat like Truthwatchers so much?

Brandon Sanderson

The reason Sja-anat likes Truthwatcher spren the most is because they are the most willing. And she considers what she's doing offering Enlightenment, not corrupting. And she considers their willingness to be a part of this. Outside observers might consider her methods less... involving less volition on the parts of some of the spren that she touches. They might argue with her on that point. In this case, as it comes with the two Truthwatcher spren that you see in the books, they both went to what they are willingly. Fully willingly to become what they are. They are, you might say, participants in her plans. So that's why she wants them.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

I assume he will at some point reveal what it is about the Mistpren that makes most willing. I think the reasoning in my first post about it being distance from Honor is probably wrong and more likely to do with the culture/nature of Mistspren than some deterministic factor about the various levels of Honor and Cultivation in them. 

I think what I really want to know is if it is possible for Renarin and Rlain to use Illumination in the way Shallan can or not? We know that each order seem to master one Surge first and then the second. Elsecallers figure Soulcasting out before Lightweavers do. Are Renarin's issues to do with him not progressing far enough, or is it to do with what has happened to Glys? Will "regular" Lightweaving be permanently denied to him? If the answer is Yes, then my theory about him being potentially very powerful is wrong. If the answer is no...

 

Edited by Reckoner89
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5 minutes ago, Reckoner89 said:

A very good and terrifying point. This probably means the personality of the Vessel is key to how the Shards combine. Sazed was able to become Harmony rather than Discord because he was uniquely capable of holding those two.

Oh it's much worse than you think

Quote

Shallan's Ward

While Sazed holds Preservation and Ruin, could his intent change from Harmony to Discord?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)
Quote

“He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it.”

TFE, epigraph of chapter 8

Quote

I think what I really want to know is if it is possible for Renarin and Rlain to use Illumination in the way Shallan can or not? We know that each order seem to master one Surge first and then the second. Elsecallers figure Soulcasting out before Lightweavers do. Is Renarin's issues to do with him not progressing far enough, or is it to do with what has happened to Glys? Will "regular" Lightweaving be permanently denied to him? If the answer is Yes, then my theory about him being potentially very powerful is wrong. If the answer is no...

It's likely Renarin won't be able to use S-Illumination, for Rlain I'm less certain, I'm still not convinced Tumi and Glys have the exact same nature

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5 hours ago, Reckoner89 said:

My fundamental point is that as things stand, Renarin and Rlain are the only two beings we know of who can access their surges through three different Shards. The implication of that is that their potential power level is higher than that of most everyone else. 

Ehh, I'm not so sure about this. I have personally theorised that the bond-mate (most likely spren, but presumably any Cognitive entity/sapient bit of Investiture will do) has a lensing effect on the power, a bit like shining light through a coloured or warped lens. So Renarin and Rlain can access Truthwatcher Surges through an Enlightened Mistspren lens, rather than a Mistspren lens, but I don't think this will grant them access to more power, but different power.

I will say though, the fact that Enlightening seems to be an imperfect method, as Tumi implies the Rhythm of War to be significant (though this might be philosophical), with the different Investitures apparently not harmonising, I could see the case for them potentially having access to both the regular Surgebinding of their order and the Voidbinding equivalent, though possibly imperfectly, on account of using two "half lenses" instead of one "lens."

32 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I disagree with that assumption. First there almost no chances combining Ruin and Odium will not create something even more dangerous and second there are more than one way to fuse to Shards

It will temper Odium in the sense that the Vessel will no longer have a singular overpowering Intent to contend with, it will not just be hatred all the time, though that particular combination isn't one I'd like to see.

Other than that I don't think there's a difference in the way the Shards combine if they make Harmony, Discord or even just Inaction or Indecisiveness, just how the mind of the Vessel interprets/rationalises these two Intents simultaneously, but I don't think the actual power of [Ruin+Preservation] is any different no matter the combined Intent.

42 minutes ago, mathiau said:

You fuse Honour and Odium in a way that use Honour to temper Odium but you could also fuse them in a way that use Honour to fuel Odium

And which one is War? Or is it both? I don't think this is something with a simple answer, though I'm personally inclined to believe that War would be both of them feeding the worst of eachother. Honor as a justification for Odium and as a way of making it "okay," because there are rules in war, the hatred is dressed up in glory and Odium pulling Honor towards martiality.

47 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The spren with the least influence from Honour are Cultivationsprens, not Mistpsrens.

I'd say that the spren with the least influence from Honor is the Nightwatcher, who's wholly of Cultivation, unlike the Cultivationspren, who are an Honor/Cultivation mix, though presumably heavily biased toward Cultivation.

Spoilered for length, bolding mine.

Spoiler
Quote

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

There's even disagreement among the spren about who's most like Honor and we don't actually know the ratios for any spren, with obvious guesses being Honorspren leaning heavily toward Honor, Cultivationspren leaning heavily toward Cultivation and the Stormfather, Nightwatcher and Sibling presumably being entirely Honor, entirely Cultivation and 50/50, respectively.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

And the fact Tumi was singing the Rhythm of War imply it's his Cultivation part that was transformed

I really don't like that interpretation, it doesn't sit right with me for a few reasons

1) I don't think that spren have easily isolatable Investiture properties, but are (normally) wholly composed of whatever investiture(s) make them up, ie spren generally consist of a chunk of [Honor and Cultivation], not two chunks of [Honor] and [Cultivation], so claiming that only the Cultivation part was affected sounds to me a lot like just heating up the tin in a bar of bronze.

2) the fact that Tumi put import on the Rhythm of War might also be because it's the first known fusion of Odium and any traditional Tone of Roshar, which is hopeful for Sja-anat's children as it's an affirmation that they do have a place, also:

Quote

Questioner

So far all the spren that have bonded to humans appear to be emotion-based as opposed to nature-based. Is that true for all the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Well it depends. For instance: how would you define Wyndle?

Questioner

I struggled with that one.

Brandon Sanderson

Uh hm. So I would say that you are on the right track, that there is a definite inclination that direction.

Questioner

Towards Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There is.

Questioner

Is there other surges then, that are more Cultivation-exclusive or other Knights Radiant that are...?

Brandon Sanderson

We'll RAFO that, but the original Knights Radiant are more focused on Honor and his spren.

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

 Bolding mine.

The Rhythm of War might be significant specifically for being a melding of Honor and Odium, if this is the perspective, again with the added sense of belonging, as above.

 

¤_¤

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Reckoner89 said:

So I think I should have been more precise in my original post. I am not saying Voidbinding and Surgebinding are the exact same thing. I am saying they are different versions of the same overarching magic system. So like Allomancy, Hemalurgy and Feruchemy are three different versions of The Metallic Arts, filtered through Preservation, Ruin and a combination of the two respectively. 

The Metallic arts aren't a preexisting force that was filtered through the shards, it is the shards, made possible, and powered by them. Same with surgebinding and Voidbinding

7 hours ago, Reckoner89 said:

Raboniel tells us clearly that the Fused access the Surges: "We of the Fused know our Surge with an intimacy a Radiant will never know." (RoW, Chp 31)

The Fused are accessing the Surges through Odium and the Radiants are accessing them through Honor and Cultivation. I think the problem is that we call what the Radiants do "Surgebinding" instead of Honor-binding and Culti-binding (for obvious reasons given how ugly those words are). I think Odium's line at the end of RoW about other Shards discovering the strength of Surgebinding is the key one. The implication is that there is a version of this overall magic system that uses the suffix "binding" that can be filtered through each of the Shards.

Odium doesn't want people to use Voidbinding, or any of his power at all, that's why he likes to take other shards powers instead. the fused are surgebinders, but Voidbinding is something else.

1 hour ago, Reckoner89 said:

I think what I really want to know is if it is possible for Renarin and Rlain to use Illumination in the way Shallan can or not? We know that each order seem to master one Surge first and then the second. Elsecallers figure Soulcasting out before Lightweavers do. Are Renarin's issues to do with him not progressing far enough, or is it to do with what has happened to Glys? Will "regular" Lightweaving be permanently denied to him? If the answer is Yes, then my theory about him being potentially very powerful is wrong. If the answer is no...

They probably will not have access to the Surge of Illumination

Edited by Frustration
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Posted (edited)

20 hours ago, Reckoner89 said:

However, the crucial point is that he can access his surges in three different ways as opposed to the usual two.

When do we see other Knights accessing each individual Surge in two different ways? Edgedancers with Progression is the only time I can think of this happening, with Growth vs Regrowth, and I think it's plausible to kind of fit those under the same umbrella.

20 hours ago, Reckoner89 said:

Renarin seems perfectly capable of using Progression (healing). He is also becoming increasingly proficient with Odium’s version of Illumination (his future-sight). However, he is still having issues with using Illumination in the way other Radiants (including other Truthwatchers) use it. My theory is that Progression is the “truest surge” of Cultivation and so Illumination is closer to Honor. Honor and Odium are especially at odds, and Odium’s light’s influence is making it difficult for him to use his Illumination in the way Shallan can. However, he can combine Cultivation and Odium’s version of Illumination and show what growth and future sight result in (Moash’s better self). 

I disagree with this. I think his futuresight is his resonance. It's a passive thing that appears to require no Light and can be related in a way to both of his powers but at the same time is more than just a combination of the two. I think the lights he makes are his Illumination, though we don't really know what the heck those do yet besides "strange, unnatural things sometimes" (unclear if this is referring to what he did against Moash or not). I could buy the Moash thing being either an extension of those lights and so V-Illumination, or essentially being his Reverse Lashing equivalent.

9 hours ago, Reckoner89 said:

Raboniel tells us clearly that the Fused access the Surges: "We of the Fused know our Surge with an intimacy a Radiant will never know." (RoW, Chp 31)

Worth noting, Fused are considered Surgebinders, not Voidbinders:

Quote

Chaos

You've recently said that Rosharans call everything Surgebinding. So my question is: does Khriss call what the Fused do "Surgebinding"?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Chaos

Interesting. We still don't know what Voidbinding is, but we'll get there eventually, I'm sure.

Brandon Sanderson

You will.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

 

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

1) I don't think that spren have easily isolatable Investiture properties, but are (normally) wholly composed of whatever investiture(s) make them up, ie spren generally consist of a chunk of [Honor and Cultivation], not two chunks of [Honor] and [Cultivation], so claiming that only the Cultivation part was affected sounds to me a lot like just heating up the tin in a bar of bronze.

Agreed. To quote a WoB (emphasis mine):

Spoiler

Alpharho

The metal of Shardblades. Cultivationspren versus honorspren, for example. Are they different metals?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but good question.

Alpharho

Are all orders the same alloy, essentially?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There's a little asterisk on there, but not in the way you're asking... You could call those all the same alloy. Because the mixture to different spren is different, I think that you could argue that each one is its own alloy.

Alpharho

So, different proportions of tanavastium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it doesn't quite work that way with these magics, right? I'm going to say that's up to the individual cosmerologist who is in the world, the arcanist, defining it. You would be able to find enough differences to legitimately call them different alloys if you wanted to.

Alpharho

Would you say different ratios of the same two metals?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide it up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing.

Alpharho

But you won't say what that thing is called?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are dividing them would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

 

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

There's even disagreement among the spren about who's most like Honor and we don't actually know the ratios for any spren, with obvious guesses being Honorspren leaning heavily toward Honor, Cultivationspren leaning heavily toward Cultivation and the Stormfather, Nightwatcher and Sibling presumably being entirely Honor, entirely Cultivation and 50/50, respectively.

As you kind of get at later, I don't think we can define ratios for the spren so easily. Imo, it's not two types of Investiture with one Intent each, it's one type of Investiture with one Intent (which is made up from two others a la resonances). So you can't, say, split an honorspren into Honor and Cultivation easily (there's probably some way to sort of do it, but I don't think it's directly splitting it in that way, I think it's kinda weirder than that), because it's not made of separate Honor and Cultivation. It's a piece of Investiture with the Intent of, say, protection or something in that vein, which contains elements of both Honor and Cultivation but is not quite either, they're changed to work together as one whole. You can argue the Intent is closer to one Shard than another, but you can't directly split it into something like "80% Honor, 20% Cultivation".

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I disagree with this. I think his futuresight is his resonance. It's a passive thing that appears to require no Light and can be related in a way to both of his powers but at the same time is more than just a combination of the two. I think the lights he makes are his Illumination, though we don't really know what the heck those do yet besides "strange, unnatural things sometimes" (unclear if this is referring to what he did against Moash or not). I could buy the Moash thing being either an extension of those lights and so V-Illumination, or essentially being his Reverse Lashing equivalent.

It requires light

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It requires light

The visions that come to him unbidden require Light?

I know he uses Light when he deliberately "re-plays" one, but nothing of the sort is indicated about when he just sees the stained glass images around him. Also, I believe Rlain gets the same type of vision when he's in no position to have Light.

 

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1 minute ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The visions that come to him unbidden require Light?

Kaladin, Jasnah and Shallan alll unintentionally used Surgebinding, with light.

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I know he uses Light when he deliberately "re-plays" one, but nothing of the sort is indicated about when he just sees the stained glass images around him.

Tell me, why would storing a vision for later require light, but not the original viewing?

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Also, I believe Rlain gets the same type of vision when he's in no position to have Light.

Rlain did not

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13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin, Jasnah and Shallan alll unintentionally used Surgebinding, with light.

Shouldn't, say, Shallan have remarked on him glowing at the end of WoR though, when he's definitely seeing something?

Also, it's been pointed out on Shardcast that we've never seen any other example of someone Surgebinding unwillingly, uncosciously, yes, against their express wishes, no. So it would be odd of this was an actual ability he was using but couldn't control.

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Tell me, why would storing a vision for later require light, but not the original viewing?

I don't know, possibly because actively using the ability takes more effort? Possibly because it's not actually a vision, but the recreation of a vision?

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Rlain did not

Oh?

Quote

"Yes," Venli said to Mourning, "but I sent them away. The Fused would have seen them, hunted them." She paused, then her rhythm changed to Confusion. "And Timbre says . . . she says you're spoken for?"

"What?" he said. "By that honorspren who said he'd take me? I turned him down. I . . ."

The room went dark.

Then it shone as crystals grew out feom his feet like . . . like stained glass windows, covering the floor. They showed a figure rising in blue-glowing Shardplate, and a tower coming alight.

Keep fighting, a voice said in his head. Salvation will be, Rlain, listener. Bridger of Minds.

-Rhythm of War, chapter 111

He doesn't get a vision?

 

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3 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Shouldn't, say, Shallan have remarked on him glowing at the end of WoR though, when he's definitely seeing something?

No one noticed Kaladin glowing in the baracks.

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Also, it's been pointed out on Shardcast that we've never seen any other example of someone Surgebinding unwillingly, uncosciously, yes, against their express wishes, no. So it would be odd of this was an actual ability he was using but couldn't control.

He did say they replaced his epileptic seizers, so that probably explains it.

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't know, possibly because actively using the ability takes more effort? Possibly because it's not actually a vision, but the recreation of a vision?

So why would a Void, not give him the ability to create a vision, but would let him store it?

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh?

-Rhythm of War, chapter 111

He doesn't get a vision?

... Huh, I thought that was his spren.

Reguardless he's in the atrium, all the lanterns have light.

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We all know Renarin and Rlain are the most powerful beings in the cosmere because of the mutual love and respect they have for each other.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

So why would a Void, not give him the ability to create a vision, but would let him store it?

Interestingly, he does not recreate the visions. Glys is the one who does it and uses Light to do so, and it takes effort and tires him out pretty quickly.

As for your actual question, I don't know, and am very curious on that too. Maybe Glys can make illusions (which only he and Renarin can see, for whatever reason) and "capturing" and "recreating" the vision is just that, memorizing and then recreating from the memory? But either way, this seems to be different from the visions themselves, which Renarin speaks about as if they can't be controlled.

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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12 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Interestingly, he does not recreate the visions. Glys is the one who does it and uses Light to do so, and it takes effort and tires him out pretty quickly.

A potentially important distinction.

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9 hours ago, Frustration said:

No one noticed Kaladin glowing in the baracks.

Could you remind me of when this happens? It's been a while since I read WoK and WoR.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

He did say they replaced his epileptic seizers, so that probably explains it.

But why would a power manifest as a seizure? I'm much happier with the idea of this being a resonance simply because it seems like an attribute, something that just happens, just like Kaladin's squires.

It might also be that Renarin, having grown up with seizures, simply rationalises this as a different kind of seizure, where Rlain might not, not having that same reference frame.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

So why would a Void, not give him the ability to create a vision, but would let him store it?

I think it makes sense if the original vision is the resonance and the "stored" vision is simply a manifestation of Illumination, showing the same thing, sure, but not being the same thing.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Reguardless he's in the atrium, all the lanterns have light.

And the suppressor is still flipped at this point, meaning that this vision would have to be fueled by Voidlight if that were the case.

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Interestingly, he does not recreate the visions. Glys is the one who does it and uses Light to do so, and it takes effort and tires him out pretty quickly.

Yeah, that is an interesting point.

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

As for your actual question, I don't know, and am very curious on that too. Maybe Glys can make illusions (which only he and Renarin can see, for whatever reason) and "capturing" and "recreating" the vision is just that, memorizing and then recreating from the memory? But either way, this seems to be different from the visions themselves, which Renarin speaks about as if they can't be controlled.

You put it better than I would have.

 

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Could you remind me of when this happens? It's been a while since I read WoK and WoR.

After the Highstorm Kaladin is left outside in

8 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

But why would a power manifest as a seizure? I'm much happier with the idea of this being a resonance simply because it seems like an attribute, something that just happens, just like Kaladin's squires.

I'm not sure, that's just what he said.

8 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And the suppressor is still flipped at this point, meaning that this vision would have to be fueled by Voidlight if that were the case.

Stormlight still works.

Edited by Frustration
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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Stormlight still works.

Only for Adhesion, no?

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Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Only for Adhesion, no?

And Gravtation fused to Adhesion.

Also I don't remember Venli trying to use Stormlight to power her abilities in the Tower so it could have worked for her

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3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

And Gravtation fused to Adhesion.

Heh, thought you meant the Heavenly Ones at first and was so confused. 

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Also I don't remember Venli trying to use Stormlight to power her abilities in the Tower so it could have worked for her

Nah, she tries it and it doesn't work. RoW 67:

Quote

Timbre pulsed. She wasn’t convinced it would work with Stormlight, not with the tower’s defenses in place. Indeed, as Venli tried to do … well, anything with the Stormlight, she felt as if there were some invisible wall blocking her.

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21 hours ago, Frustration said:

No one noticed Kaladin glowing in the baracks.

Teft noticed. Also, when you use only little of Stormlight glow is practicly unnoticable - Kaladin was using Reverse Lashing on the Bridge, and only few people near to him were able to see this.

 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Stormlight still works.

 

48 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Only for Adhesion, no?

And for Honorblade.

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