What's causing the Heralds magical insanity?

[Could Be Fire]

Heralds Madness

The Heralds are insane, and that seems to a plot point of increasing significance with Kaladin’s focus on mental health in RoW, Ishar’s plan being dangled as a plot thread for the upcoming KoW. However, a lot of unclear with the herald's madness.
I don’t think it’s been confirmed but it’s collectively accepted that a major part of the problem is a ‘magical’  inversion of their divine attributes/purpose.

Quote

Ishar: Pious/Giving. Corrupted Priest who sees self as God (opposite of pious). Also fueling a long civil war, an inversion of unity.
Jezerin: Protecting/Leading. Dunkard, absconding leadership/responsibility (we know Nale/Ishar/Kalak/Bateb are all still heavily involved Rosharian affairs but Jezerin actively does nothing). Beggar, direct opposite of King.
Nale: Just/Confidence. Explicitly compassionless, making it impossible for him to be just. Also blindly following the law because he doesn’t trust his judgment anymore (lack of confidence).
Shalash: Creative/Honest. Compulsively destroys artistic representations of herself (anti-creative but also unable to be honest about herself). Somewhat evasive with giving answers to Dalinar and co. Lying to herself about Ishar’s sanity.
Kallak: Resolute/Builder. Choice paralysis, the direct opposite of resoluteness. Arguably working against freedom as leader of the SoH.
Taln: Dependable/Resourceful. Barely mentally present and cowardly, can’t be depended on for anything.

 

 

However, what’s causing this isn’t clear. There are so many factors at play that could be screwing with the Heralds heads:

1. Normal PTSD from millennia of torture + war
2. Immortality related Cognitive shadow decay (brain trying to handle millennia of memories)
3. Spiritweb impact of 'breaking' during the oathpact
4. Spiritweb impact of actually abandoning the oathpact
5. BAM being bound
6. Honor's death/shattering
7. Guilt over abandoning one of their closest companions to be tortured alone
8. ???
9. (Nale specific, but bonding to a Highspren is making him worse)

The heralds seem to think that this is purely a result (1) PTSD. Kalak says that they shouldn't be 'getting worse' anymore. Nale tells Szeth at Thaylen Field his loss of compassion is directly torture-related Ash told Adolin that "thousands of years of torture" is what made the heralds insane. Ishar seems only to make the ideal = lucidity connection when Navani swears her ideal.

Ishar also says he needs to be sane to fix the oathpact, not that fixing the oathpact will make him sane. I don’t think it’s actually on the herald's radar that they have a 'magical' problem.

The source of the magical insanity can't just be the impact of abandoning the oathpact or breaking since Taln seems to still have the 'inverted attribute (resolute/dependable - comatose and cowardice) and he never participated in either of those two things. The cognitive shadow memory problems are definitely an issue but it doesn’t make sense as a root of the herald's ironic madness.

I think it's something later, probably BAM being bound and/or Honor's death, that is causing the 'curse'.

Heralds are closer to Nahal spren than humanity at this point, per Kalak, and also directly connected to Honor (like the Sibling). What happened to the Sibling and all the spren was drastic and completely uwpredicted. Heralds getting uniquely broken (on top of trauma + memory problems) fits with the other effects we've seen.

Furthermore, while, the heralds do seem insane even in the original prologue (Kalak's anxiety, he sees cowardice in Jezerin’s eyes) but it’s nowhere near what we see in modern Roshar. Jezerin is leagues more put together, and while anxiety does seem to be part of Kalak’s madness, but I would argue that his magical anxiety seems to be specifically social anxiety (he’s at his most fearful surrounded by crowds at Gavliar’s party and the Trial) as an inversion of the social organizer role willshapers seems to have had. What we saw in the prologue than the completely reasonable fear of torture driven by PTSD.

Finally, on a meta level, this would also help tie two of the major plot threads (Dalinar’s plan to fix the Heralds and Adolin/Shallan’s quest to release BAM) in KoW.

[mathiau]

10 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

However, what’s causing this isn’t clear. There are so many factors at play that could be screwing with the Heralds heads:

1. Normal PTSD from millennia of torture + war
2. Immortality related Cognitive shadow decay (brain trying to handle millennia of memories)
3. Spiritweb impact of 'breaking' during the oathpact
4. Spiritweb impact of actually abandoning the oathpact
5. BAM being bound
6. Honor's death/shattering
7. Guilt over abandoning one of their closest companions to be tortured alone
8. ???
9. (Nale specific, but bonding to a Highspren is making him worse)

The seven first are definitely a factor. For Nale I'd bet on the opposite, him bounding a Highspren is making the Highspren worse and she'll end up either breaking their bound or getting killed by him.

I think we can add "direct Unmade interference" to the list

(also for a single Shard the term is Splintering)

Edited July 22, 2021 by mathiau

[Could Be Fire]

48 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The seven first are definitely a factor. For Nale I'd bet on the opposite, him bounding a Highspren is making the Highspren worse and she'll end up either breaking their bound or getting killed by him.

I think we can add "direct Unmade interference" to the list

(also for a single Shard the term is Splintering)

It's WOB that we can "blame some of how Nale is acting more on the Highspren" and that his Highspren is "wacky". It is possible that they were originally reasonable and the stress of a nahel bond with Nale corrupted them but I think it's more likely that Nale choose/was chosen by an extremist Highspren who already agreed with his 'letter of the law above all' and pro-proto-radiant murder brand of crazy.

Direct Unmade interference is a good point! We know Moelach was in Kharbranth with Battar and Nergaoul was based in Alethkar while Jezerin was in Kholinar for a while. Maybe some of the Unmade were directly haunting the heralds? It's not like they had much else to do due in the millennia after BAM/Singers was bound.

[NameIess]

I'm pretty sure that the chief cause of the Herald's insanity is the conflict between their natural spiritual or cognitive aspects and the investiture that makes up the oathpact. We have seen that people's perception can affect investiture, and the heralds have been deified by people for millennia. Some of them, (Nale and Taln being the best examples) did not fight this change, while others (primarily Ash) fought against it semi-successfully, while others, (such as Jezrien) being mentally broken by the struggle. The fused show similar symptoms, with the Pursuer, one of the most famous of the fused, being unable to break his tradition, Raboniel thinking that she is naturally the best scholar, and many of the fused being completely insane. Notably, Leshwi seems to be the most sane of all the fused we have seen, and she also has no stories or mythology about her.

[crème de la crèmling]

I've been dwelling on this for a few days now and putting my thoughts together on it, but I personally tend to believe it's something along the lines of "4. Spiritweb impact of actually abandoning the oathpact."

When the Stormfather describes the way that they put together the Oathpact, he phrases it like they died, Honor Invested them, and became Cognitive Shadows, and that first time was meant to be forever. RoW has a bunch of arcs dedicated to showing that nothing lasts, and why that's actually a good thing; Bridge Four, like the Heralds, is a "legendary team that has already faded into memory" or something to that effect. But even though Bridge Four was formed to survive a terrible circumstance, absolutely nobody, not even Kaladin, believed that would work forever. Something else had to be done to save them. The dissolution of Bridge Four is also framed as a good thing: now the members of it can go and live their own lives. Kaladin himself has an arc in RoW on why he can't live forever as Highmarshal Stormblessed; mentally, it is too much of a toll on him and he's gradually breaking. His conversation with Wit on Braize, "there will be sunshine again" highlights the necessity of change in maintaining his mental health; even earlier in the series, in WoR, Wit and Shallan have the conversation about how beauty would be the pain of existence changing from day to day. And back in RoW, there's lots to do with Investiture and Intent, and how Investiture can be given Intent, etc. Zahel even explains Cognitive Shadows on the page. 

I tend to think these days that perhaps Cognitive Shadows, like spren, have an Intent baked in to their creation, and that the Intent of the Heralds was to bear the burden of the Oathpact together. I think they probably believed that being able to share the pain would be enough, but obviously it was not, and maybe never could have been. It's an interesting take on the "failing seal placed on the ancient evil's prison" trope, in my opinion. It would add some level of grand tragedy to the Heralds' existence as well. This interpretation would mean that setting down the Oathpact is going against their Intent, which is said to have some sort of consequence. (In Taln's case, I argue that holding it up alone would still be going against his Intent, if the burden was intended to be shared, and so he would therefore still manifest some kind of magical insanity.) When the Desolation begins, and they make enough progress that the Radiants will be able to win the day, they're supposed to die and head back together--literally, they need to choose death, until, eventually, the pain becomes too much and they eventually choose life, which is being reborn on Roshar to fight again. I feel like this is mappable to Pattern's assertion in WoR that "spren change in the same ways, over and over." They can't seem to break out of that cycle.

The reversal of their attributes might actually fit with this idea of going against an Intent that Honor gave them. The degree of their madness might vary based on the level of how very much against their Intent they are going? Ash, for example, put down the Oathpact, but her madness amounts to a compulsion to destroy depictions of herself. She doesn't descend into Ishar's or Nale's levels because perhaps her Intent is to remain honest in some way, and by acknowledging that she's doing something wrong, she retains a bit more of her sanity. Ishar, however, totally believes that he's sole bearer of the Oathpact, and that he's fighting against Odium's false Radiants ... Nale seems to be reliving some of the things he did in the past, too--he fought against Jezrien which was noted by Jezrien as being a particularly honorable thing to do ("an enemy who was correct all along"), and now he's repeating that character-defining moment again but in a twisted context. Taln repeats his introductory speech over again. I wonder if they are perpetuating their own personal cycles? Resetting the Oathpact could mean resetting their Intent so they can be freed of their madness--mechanically forcing a change? 

I also think it might have an application on the Fused, too, who function similarly ... imagine if Raboniel's Intent was to end the war, one way or another. She maintains her clarity up to the end, although her methods are pretty extreme. Leshwi might be fighting the war to her internal code. But other Fused might be sick of the war, and want to leave it behind like the Heralds left the Oathpact, and they might be reduced to madness. The Pursuer, I think, could be an example of a Fused who is gradually going against his Intent: suppose it was to fight the war, but more and more he changes his identity to that of someone who pursues vengeance over Odium's agenda. So each time he gets reborn, he suffers more magically induced madness, because he's choosing actively to pull further and further away from that initial Intent.

[NameIess]

@crème de la crèmling, do you think that the investiture based madness manifests in random ways?

Edited July 22, 2021 by Nameless
Not specific enough

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

I'm pretty sure that the chief cause of the Herald's insanity is the conflict between their natural spiritual or cognitive aspects and the investiture that makes up the oathpact. We have seen that people's perception can affect investiture, and the heralds have been deified by people for millennia. Some of them, (Nale and Taln being the best examples) did not fight this change, while others (primarily Ash) fought against it semi-successfully, while others, (such as Jezrien) being mentally broken by the struggle. The fused show similar symptoms, with the Pursuer, one of the most famous of the fused, being unable to break his tradition, Raboniel thinking that she is naturally the best scholar, and many of the fused being completely insane. Notably, Leshwi seems to be the most sane of all the fused we have seen, and she also has no stories or mythology about her.

I was going to say something pretty similar. The Heralds are worshiped as Ideals by most of the people on Roshar. The Heralds believe that they are terrible people for the actions they took to end the Desolations while the people worship them for it. So it's a struggle between how they view themselves and how people view them. Though I think all the torture and the longer than mortal lifespan has an effect as well along with some of the other factors mentioned. 

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

I was going to say something pretty similar. The Heralds are worshiped as Ideals by most of the people on Roshar. The Heralds believe that they are terrible people for the actions they took to end the Desolations while the people worship them for it. So it's a struggle between how they view themselves and how people view them. Though I think all the torture and the longer than mortal lifespan has an effect as well along with some of the other factors mentioned. 

The torture has definitely had an effect on the heralds. All ten of them are insane, compared to the majority of the fused who seem able to function in battle, only Nale and Ishar seem to be able to fight, although we haven't seen all ten heralds. It could also have to do with the heralds being in the forefront of mythology.

[crème de la crèmling]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

@crème de la crèmling, do you think that the investiture based madness manifests in random ways?

I'm not quite sure which way you mean; like, is "investiture based madness" manifesting to random degrees of severity, or are the symptoms of it (compulsion to destroy depictions of yourself, etc) random?

I suppose the answer to both is no. Right now, what I'm thinking is that the more choices that the Heralds (and the Fused) make that try to change their own personal identities from what they were when they became Cognitive Shadows is what affects them. I tend to interpret it as the mind/soul is trying to change, and the power is punishing that so that it can keep doing what it was made to do, the way it was made to do it. The more the mind changes, the more the power pushes back. 

Of course, now that I'm really going through the Heralds, it does seem like the ones who engaged the most to prevent the return of Odium and the Fused in some way without using the Oathpact as it was initially constructed suffered the most. Ash and Kalak, who are trying to ignore it as best they can, don't seem nearly so bad off at the moment, but it's impossible to see just yet what they were like in the past.

I think that still might hold if it wasn't the Intent of the Investiture but the perceptions people have of them, as you suggest? People's expectations, holding them in place? But I feel like Ash is the only Herald who expresses dismay over others' perceptions of her and the other Heralds. I just think there's something inherently damaging about holding to an oath forever, and using magic to cement it just seems like a decision that would have consequences.

Most of my thought process has a lot to do with this exchange:

Quote

“I think,” Syl said, “that we spren have a problem. We think we don’t change. You’ll hear us say it sometimes. ‘Men change. Singers change. Spren don’t.’ We think that because pieces of us are eternal, we are as well. But pieces of humans are eternal too. 

“If we can choose, we can change. If we can’t change, then choice means nothing. I’m glad I feel this way, to remind me that I haven’t always felt the same. Been the same. It means that in coming here to find another Knight Radiant, I was deciding. Not simply doing what I was made to, but doing what I wanted to.”

RoW Chapter 63: Practice

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by crème de la crèmling
Grammar!

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I'm not quite sure which way you mean; like, is "investiture based madness" manifesting to random degrees of severity, or are the symptoms of it (compulsion to destroy depictions of yourself, etc) are random?

I meant the symptoms.

8 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I suppose the answer to both is no. Right now, what I'm thinking is that the more choices that the Heralds (and the Fused) make that try to change their own personal identities from what they were when they became Cognitive Shadows is what affects them. I tend to interpret it as the mind/soul is trying to change, and the power is punishing that so that it can keep doing what it was made to do, the way it was made to do it. The more the mind changes, the more the power pushes back. 

But what causes the power to push back in any specific way?

8 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I think that still might hold if it wasn't the Intent of the Investiture but the perceptions people have of them, as you suggest? People's expectations, holding them in place?

I'm saying that it is the intent. We've seen lesser spren be changed by intent, but humans seem mostly immune to the intent of others. I think that there is something different about humans, (Maybe their connection to the physical realm?) that makes their cognitive and spiritual aspects immune to change by other's perspectives. The heralds and fused, however, are bonded to what is basically "blank" (aside from Honor/Odium's) intent, making it highly vulnerable to change due to perception.

TLDR, the intent of their investiture changes based on the perception of other people.

8 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

But I feel like Ash is the only Herald who expresses dismay over others' perceptions of her and the other Heralds.

Well, the other heralds are either too far gone or don't recognize the issue.

8 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I just think there's something inherently damaging about holding to an oath forever, and using magic to cement it just seems like a decision that would have consequences

The Fused aren't holding to an oath, they're just highly invested. Kelsier isn't holding any oaths, but he still seems to want a way to avoid negative side effects due to his nature as a cognitive shadow.

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

However, what’s causing this isn’t clear. There are so many factors at play that could be screwing with the Heralds heads:

1. Normal PTSD from millennia of torture + war

Taln is worst and he was tortured the longest.

10 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

1. (Nale specific, but bonding to a Highspren is making him worse)

It should be noted that his spren was likely already bound to him during the Recreance. That may be what "living in death" means. The alternative to abandoning their oaths was driving their spren insane.

And you forgot something

• Fear of Death. - All this time they knew that if something fatal happened to them they'd either face eternal torture or causing a Desolation

10 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

The heralds seem to think that this is purely a result (1) PTSD. Kalak says that they shouldn't be 'getting worse' anymore. Nale tells Szeth at Thaylen Field his loss of compassion is directly torture-related Ash told Adolin that "thousands of years of torture" is what made the heralds insane. Ishar seems only to make the ideal = lucidity connection when Navani swears her ideal.

Ishar also says he needs to be sane to fix the oathpact, not that fixing the oathpact will make him sane. I don’t think it’s actually on the herald's radar that they have a 'magical' problem.

That is not a contradiction. It is perfectly possible to be unable to fix a problem because you have that problem.

10 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

Furthermore, while, the heralds do seem insane even in the original prologue (Kalak's anxiety, he sees cowardice in Jezerin’s eyes) but it’s nowhere near what we see in modern Roshar. Jezerin is leagues more put together, and while anxiety does seem to be part of Kalak’s madness, but I would argue that his magical anxiety seems to be specifically social anxiety (he’s at his most fearful surrounded by crowds at Gavliar’s party and the Trial) as an inversion of the social organizer role willshapers seems to have had. What we saw in the prologue than the completely reasonable fear of torture driven by PTSD.

They have lived millenia with Taln being tortured and fearing what the next Desolation will do. Inconclusive.

7 hours ago, crème de la crèmling said:

When the Stormfather describes the way that they put together the Oathpact, he phrases it like they died, Honor Invested them, and became Cognitive Shadows, and that first time was meant to be forever.

 

There is a basic problem with this assumption

• the Heralds got weapons
• the Heralds got Surges
• the Heralds got a repeated facility for making bodies
• the Heralds get bodies with superpowers

I cannot help myself. The Desolations were forseen and planned for. And these features came from Honor himself. Do we really wish to assume that Honor forsaw the Desolations but thought they could go on forever?
 It rather looks to me like Honor started living in denial when he made the Oathpact and doomed himself thereby.

 

[crème de la crèmling]

Gotcha! Let me see if I can clarify my argument further. I really enjoy thinking about this kind of thing, so it always goes on a bit long.

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But what causes the power to push back in any specific way?

I believe that it's choice and the consistency of making a choice. Just to illustrate what I'm thinking more clearly: Let's say Nale wants to stop the Desolations, but he won't go back to Braize to be tortured. The power says that this is how he was created to be, he needs to go back. Nale decides to retrieve his Honorblade. The power pushes back. Nale decides that he needs to prevent the Desolations by arranging Gavilar's death, and it's okay if he can do it justly. The power pushes harder. Nale decides that it's necessary and just to kill kindly shoemakers, old women who run orphanages, children, and he doesn't need to feel guilt because this is justice. It pushes even harder. Nale decides to join the very force he fought against, because that is now how he views justice. 

My theory is basically that with each choice he makes that isn't going back to the Oathpact and holding it up with the other Heralds, the Intent that makes up his Investiture distorts his reality a little more and he makes a (much!) worse decision than he did before. It's trying to push down, keep him where he began, and that requires him to pull harder, advance to a more extreme position. I imagine him literally stretching his soul thin. It goes without saying that I could definitely be wrong in my interpretation, but the pattern I'm seeing at the moment is that the more he fights, the more he tries to find a different solution, the less and less clearly he sees the world until his attributes are twisted against him.

Kalak's indecision and Ash's refusal to involve herself makes a lot of sense to me in that context. Ishar is extremely far gone; Ash says that watching him fade was like watching the sun go out. And Taln's decision is always to keep holding up the burden, despite the fact that the Stormfather and Ash both single him out as the one who was never meant to join them, and he makes that decision over and over for more than four thousand years. In his narration, he hints at something he calls the Gift, which was not his, that is now his; he believes that he is somehow late, and that it has been too long. In his moment of lucidity, however, he states directly that "they have given a gift to humanity", which he specifically calls out as time. He's not late, as he believes in his madness, but his reality is heavily distorted. Instead of Taln, who was never a scholar or a king and who was never meant to be a Herald, he introduces himself as Talenel'Elin, the Herald of War--he gives the whole speech by rote, as if he had broken. He's fully embraced a role that wasn't his, as Nale has embraced a code that isn't justice. 

13 hours ago, Nameless said:

I'm saying that it is the intent. We've seen lesser spren be changed by intent, but humans seem mostly immune to the intent of others. I think that there is something different about humans, (Maybe their connection to the physical realm?) that makes their cognitive and spiritual aspects immune to change by other's perspectives. The heralds and fused, however, are bonded to what is basically "blank" (aside from Honor/Odium's) intent, making it highly vulnerable to change due to perception.

TLDR, the intent of their investiture changes based on the perception of other people.

I would counter here that I don't see anything about the people's perception of the Fused that would affect the Fused in such a way--knowledge of the Fused was essentially lost. I could agree that perception is doing something to the Heralds, especially over thousands of years of worship, but the Fused were utterly forgotten, to the point where Jasnah was hunting them in folklore. They could be vulnerable to perception, but a lot of people, human and singer, just learned about them in the last year or so. The mythology that gets given about them is disseminated by the Fused when they get there. But I suppose what could happen is that the Fused might see themselves as just and correct (or something along those lines), while the people they fight do not? What's happening there that's eroding the minds of the Fused via perception? What's the perception that the Fused are acting against? Whose perception sets the Intent? 

I also argue that the Cognitive aspects of humans are actually not immune to change based on someone else's perception of them, but it's usually rather mundane. Shallan's perspective of the deserters seems to change them; the main thing is that they agree (perhaps subconsciously) to begin to act the way she shows them they could be, the same way that the obsidian in Shadesmar is "intrigued" enough to turn into seeds. Others overwhelmingly see them as deserters, cowards, thieves, murderers, etc., but Shallan shows them that they can be otherwise. When Jasnah Soulcasts the thieves in Kharbranth, she uses Investiture to change them materially; their Cognitive aspect believes, at some level and for some length of time, they are crystal, fire, etc. based on her will. It's the more Invested someone (or something) is, the more they resist the Surge of Transformation, which I feel is consistent with the thematic idea that Intent, once set, doesn't change easily, and that change has to be done intentionally.

I think, however, what you are saying is that spren are affected directly by (Physical Realm) peoples' thoughts about them because that's how they are born, and the flamespren in TWoK are responding to observation, etc. Shallan and Pattern have a conversation about this, I think, in WoR:

Quote

"Spren," Shallan said. "If people weren't here, would spren have thought?" 

"Not here, in this realm," Pattern said. "I do not know about the other realm."

"You don't sound concerned," Shallan said. "Your entire existence might be dependent on people." 

"It is," Pattern said, again unconcerned. "But children are dependent on parents." 

WoR Chapter 24: Tyn

The parent/child metaphor is used a lot, and generally the argument behind it is that when a child is born they are given an some sort of expectation by the parent; but the child has their own mind and makes their own choices. I argue that the spren's initial creation has something to do with people's perception, but after that the pattern is that the minds that make up the spren have to agree to change, like humans. Lesser spren, flamespren and windspren and the like, I think they don't have a mind to the same extent that a Radiant spren does, and generally seem to be more easily persuadable. 

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

The Fused aren't holding to an oath, they're just highly invested. Kelsier isn't holding any oaths, but he still seems to want a way to avoid negative side effects due to his nature as a cognitive shadow.

I think there's something special about how the Heralds went to Honor specifically and "gave themselves up" to create the Oathpact, but my thought as it applies to the Fused, Kelsier, etc. is that they are all Cognitive Shadows created from Investiture that has the personality, memories and possibly the motivation that the person in question had at the time, and they are all baked in. The Investiture has "gotten used to being that person" and so it wants to keep going.  

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

There is a basic problem with this assumption

• the Heralds got weapons
• the Heralds got Surges
• the Heralds got a repeated facility for making bodies
• the Heralds get bodies with superpowers

I cannot help myself. The Desolations were forseen and planned for. And these features came from Honor himself. Do we really wish to assume that Honor forsaw the Desolations but thought they could go on forever?
 It rather looks to me like Honor started living in denial when he made the Oathpact and doomed himself thereby.

I think what you're saying here is that I'm assuming wrong; do you mean the Stormfather's assumption is wrong? I can't quite tell. I certainly believe right now that the Oathpact was a well-meaning plan that doomed everyone. Here are the specific passages leading me to my conclusion, at least. From Oathbringer, Chapter 38 is all about the Oathpact from the Stormfather's memory. The context he gives is that they knew that there was no way for the humans to win against the Fused, who Invested by Odium ("souls of the dead" who were "given great power by the enemy, the one called Odium. That was the beginning, the start of the Desolations"), and so the Heralds knew they needed to do something about that specific problem. They went to Honor for help--"and so, the Oathpact."

Quote

"Ten people," Dalinar said. "Five male, five female." He looked at the swords. "They stopped this?"

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.

"He was like a spren himself," Dalinar said. "You told me before--Odium too."

HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH—THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS, MEN CAN AND WILL. THE TEN HERALDS WERE SEALED UPON DAMNATION, TRAPPING THE VOIDBRINGERS THERE. HOWEVER, IF ANY ONE OF THE TEN AGREED TO BEND HIS OATH AND LET VOIDBRINGERS PAST, IT OPENED A FLOOD. THEY COULD ALL RETURN.

“And that started a Desolation,” Dalinar said. 

THAT STARTED A DESOLATION, the Stormfather agreed.

OB Chapter 38: Broken People

He goes on to explain how the cycle of Desolations continued, and how the time lapsed between them becomes shorter and shorter. If the Oathpact had been a temporary measure--my analogue for this remains Bridge Four--the Heralds would have had other plans, wouldn't they, as Kaladin kept devising escape routes? But this seemed like the only option they were able to come up with. 

Quote

THEY HAD BEEN WARNED THAT IF ANY LINGERED, IT COULD LEAD TO DISASTER. BESIDES, THEY NEEDED TO BE TOGETHER, IN DAMNATION, TO SHARE THE BURDEN OF TORTURE IF ONE WAS CAPTURED.

OB Chapter 38: Broken People 

The Stormfather admits that his memory of that time works a little fuzzily, but it seems exactly like they thought it would last indefinitely if they shared the pain as a team, and it wasn't. Odium also seems to believe that this is how humans work--emotion is too much, humans hold it imperfectly, but if they can share it, they do it better. In the Prelude, Jezrien and Kalak's conversation about the Oathpact also suggests to me that they were looking for a permanent solution.

Quote

Jezrien nodded to the ring of weapons. "I was chosen to wait for you. We weren't certain if you had survived. A ... a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end." 

Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. "What will that do?"

"Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.

TWoK: Prelude to the Stormlight Archive

The features of the Oathpact came from Honor, but Honor's power always appears to be doing surprising things. Honor also admits in his vision to Dalinar that he's not very good at seeing outcomes. Taln's appearance in Kholinar suggests to me that he manifested like a Shardblade does, coalescing from mist, likening him to a spren in that manner ... I think what Honor was trying to do is related to the Stormfather's belief that men break oaths but spren are different, by causing the Heralds to transcend humanity and become more spren-like--more unable to break their word, perhaps by attaching it to their existence. I don't think that this worked. 

But Syl demonstrates that spren can change because they choose to, and Zahel draws a distinction between power that comes to life on its own (like Syl) and a "dead man walking." I'm suggesting that there's something about becoming a Cognitive Shadow that results in a "worn soul"--as a creature of the dead, are they capable of changing, or is that solely a property of the living? The ability to change is such an enormous theme in the series as a whole. What's the consequence Sanderson is giving, if any at all, for returning from the dead? What's the cost of immortality in the cosmere? Those are the questions I'm asking myself as I read.

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I believe that it's choice and the consistency of making a choice. Just to illustrate what I'm thinking more clearly: Let's say Nale wants to stop the Desolations, but he won't go back to Braize to be tortured. The power says that this is how he was created to be, he needs to go back. Nale decides to retrieve his Honorblade. The power pushes back. Nale decides that he needs to prevent the Desolations by arranging Gavilar's death, and it's okay if he can do it justly. The power pushes harder. Nale decides that it's necessary and just to kill kindly shoemakers, old women who run orphanages, children, and he doesn't need to feel guilt because this is justice. It pushes even harder. Nale decides to join the very force he fought against, because that is now how he views justice. 

My theory is basically that with each choice he makes that isn't going back to the Oathpact and holding it up with the other Heralds, the Intent that makes up his Investiture distorts his reality a little more and he makes a (much!) worse decision than he did before. It's trying to push down, keep him where he began, and that requires him to pull harder, advance to a more extreme position. I imagine him literally stretching his soul thin. It goes without saying that I could definitely be wrong in my interpretation, but the pattern I'm seeing at the moment is that the more he fights, the more he tries to find a different solution, the less and less clearly he sees the world until his attributes are twisted against him.

Kalak's indecision and Ash's refusal to involve herself makes a lot of sense to me in that context. Ishar is extremely far gone; Ash says that watching him fade was like watching the sun go out. And Taln's decision is always to keep holding up the burden, despite the fact that the Stormfather and Ash both single him out as the one who was never meant to join them, and he makes that decision over and over for more than four thousand years. In his narration, he hints at something he calls the Gift, which was not his, that is now his; he believes that he is somehow late, and that it has been too long. In his moment of lucidity, however, he states directly that "they have given a gift to humanity", which he specifically calls out as time. He's not late, as he believes in his madness, but his reality is heavily distorted. Instead of Taln, who was never a scholar or a king and who was never meant to be a Herald, he introduces himself as Talenel'Elin, the Herald of War--he gives the whole speech by rote, as if he had broken. He's fully embraced a role that wasn't his, as Nale has embraced a code that isn't justice. 

Okay. Why does Nale's madness manifest as lack of emotion? Why is Ishar unable to see the world as it actually is?

12 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I would counter here that I don't see anything about the people's perception of the Fused that would affect the Fused in such a way--knowledge of the Fused was essentially lost. I could agree that perception is doing something to the Heralds, especially over thousands of years of worship, but the Fused were utterly forgotten, to the point where Jasnah was hunting them in folklore. They could be vulnerable to perception, but a lot of people, human and singer, just learned about them in the last year or so. The mythology that gets given about them is disseminated by the Fused when they get there. But I suppose what could happen is that the Fused might see themselves as just and correct (or something along those lines), while the people they fight do not? What's happening there that's eroding the minds of the Fused via perception? What's the perception that the Fused are acting against? Whose perception sets the Intent? 

During the desolations, Fused like the pursuer garnered reputations among both humans and listeners, and those reputations likely had centuries in which they were widely known. Even in the current pre-final desolation world, humans have stories of the voidbringers, hate-filled monsters bent on destroying mankind. That perception has changed the intent of their investiture, and their investiture would keep that intent even if everyone forgot about them.

16 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I also argue that the Cognitive aspects of humans are actually not immune to change based on someone else's perception of them, but it's usually rather mundane. Shallan's perspective of the deserters seems to change them; the main thing is that they agree (perhaps subconsciously) to begin to act the way she shows them they could be, the same way that the obsidian in Shadesmar is "intrigued" enough to turn into seeds. Others overwhelmingly see them as deserters, cowards, thieves, murderers, etc., but Shallan shows them that they can be otherwise.

I think that what Shallan has done is based on her nature as a Lightweaver. As her oaths are about discovering who she is, (As Wit put it, you must know the truth before you change it) she shows the deserters not only what they are, but also what they could be.

18 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

When Jasnah Soulcasts the thieves in Kharbranth, she uses Investiture to change them materially; their Cognitive aspect believes, at some level and for some length of time, they are crystal, fire, etc. based on her will. It's the more Invested someone (or something) is, the more they resist the Surge of Transformation, which I feel is consistent with the thematic idea that Intent, once set, doesn't change easily, and that change has to be done intentionally.

We've seen that theme, and we've also seen the theme of conflict between your reputation and your actual self, during Kaladin's arc in RoW. We've also seen the vessels struggling against the intent of their shards, and we've even seen Rayse semi-successfully change the intent of Odium from just hatred to hatred and also passion, largely by telling everyone to see it that way and by viewing it as Passion.

20 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

The parent/child metaphor is used a lot, and generally the argument behind it is that when a child is born they are given an some sort of expectation by the parent; but the child has their own mind and makes their own choices. I argue that the spren's initial creation has something to do with people's perception, but after that the pattern is that the minds that make up the spren have to agree to change, like humans. Lesser spren, flamespren and windspren and the like, I think they don't have a mind to the same extent that a Radiant spren does, and generally seem to be more easily persuadable. 

And the investiture that is bonded to the heralds and fused also has no mind to guide it save the heralds and fused, making it vulnerable to change.

[+Oltux72]

51 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

My theory is basically that with each choice he makes that isn't going back to the Oathpact and holding it up with the other Heralds, the Intent that makes up his Investiture distorts his reality a little more and he makes a (much!) worse decision than he did before. It's trying to push down, keep him where he began, and that requires him to pull harder, advance to a more extreme position. I imagine him literally stretching his soul thin. It goes without saying that I could definitely be wrong in my interpretation, but the pattern I'm seeing at the moment is that the more he fights, the more he tries to find a different solution, the less and less clearly he sees the world until his attributes are twisted against him.

OK, the problem I see is that his attributes he is fighting against applied to Roshar (the planet) during Desolations.

51 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I think there's something special about how the Heralds went to Honor specifically and "gave themselves up" to create the Oathpact, but my thought as it applies to the Fused, Kelsier, etc. is that they are all Cognitive Shadows created from Investiture that has the personality, memories and possibly the motivation that the person in question had at the time, and they are all baked in. The Investiture has "gotten used to being that person" and so it wants to keep going.  

While the Oathpact says that he should be on Braize.

51 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I think what you're saying here is that I'm assuming wrong; do you mean the Stormfather's assumption is wrong? I can't quite tell. I certainly believe right now that the Oathpact was a well-meaning plan that doomed everyone. Here are the specific passages leading me to my conclusion, at least. From Oathbringer, Chapter 38 is all about the Oathpact from the Stormfather's memory. The context he gives is that they knew that there was no way for the humans to win against the Fused, who Invested by Odium ("souls of the dead" who were "given great power by the enemy, the one called Odium. That was the beginning, the start of the Desolations"), and so the Heralds knew they needed to do something about that specific problem. They went to Honor for help--"and so, the Oathpact."

Unless you assume Honor planned for them to break their oaths. And that implies that the Desolations were planned events.

51 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

He goes on to explain how the cycle of Desolations continued, and how the time lapsed between them becomes shorter and shorter. If the Oathpact had been a temporary measure--my analogue for this remains Bridge Four--the Heralds would have had other plans, wouldn't they, as Kaladin kept devising escape routes? But this seemed like the only option they were able to come up with. 

But they did search for alternatives. In fact they found one. And it worked 4000 years.

 

[crème de la crèmling]

34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Okay. Why does Nale's madness manifest as lack of emotion? Why is Ishar unable to see the world as it actually is?

I think that it has to do with his decisions, his past, where he started, what he is trying to do, and who he is ... which is to say, I think it's just his character development, as it is with all of them. I'm using Nale as an example solely because he has a lot of screen time. I think the implication from the flashback Dalinar witnesses in RoW gives the strongest implication as to why Nale's particular madness manifests that way:

Quote

"The law cannot be moral," Nale said to them. "But you can be moral as you create laws. Ever must you protect the weakest, those most likely to be taken advantage of. Institute a right of movement, so that a family who feels their lord is unrighteous can leave his area. Then tie a lord's authority to the people who follow him."

RoW  Chapter 47: A Cage Forged of Spirits

Nale begins from this place of sympathy for the governed; he wants to make it so that the law, which has no mind, can protect the most vulnerable people. 

Quote

"I will take this charge," Nale said softly. "With honor." 

"Do not consider it an honor," Jezerezeh said. "A duty, yes, but not an honor." 

"I understand. Though I had not expected you would come to an enemy with this offer." 

"An enemy, yes," Jezerezeh said. "But an enemy who was correct all along, making me the villain, not you. We will fix what we've broken. Ishar and I agreed. There is no person we would welcome more eagerly into this pact than you. You are the single most honorable man I have ever had the privilege of opposing."

RoW  Chapter 47: A Cage Forged of Spirits

Dalinar's vision doesn't go any further than this moment, which I feel implies that this is the moment that created Nale as he is now, either being inducted to the Oathpact, or about to be. This is what he's supposed to be. He follows his own code, which isn't necessarily moral--but when he made his code and decided to follow it, he took into account sympathy and morality, the reasons why he followed it to begin with.

Quote

Darkness continued to advance. "You are right. It seems I have finally released myself from the last vestiges of guilt I once felt at doing my duty. Honor has suffused me, changed me. It has been a long time coming."

Edgedancer Chapter 19

He's insane in this moment, so I don't trust his own interpretation of what's happening to him. Whatever has really happened to him, all he's got left of that person he was before is that belief that he is the law, the law cannot be moral, and that he was correct all along. The attributes of "Justice" and "Confident" are inverted. 

From what I understand, I think we're actually using the same arguments, just with different pivots. Let me see if I can summarize how I'm getting this:

• The Heralds and Fused are attached to Investiture, but the Investiture is a separate entity from their mind.
• Widespread perception of the Heralds and the Fused affects their identity. 
• The pressure of perception on their Intent causes their Investiture to want to match that perception.
• Their identity wants to do its own thing.
• The difference between their identity and their Intent is so stark that it causes a magical madness that manifests based on how they are perceived.

Is this right? If I could ask, what about perception do you see as instigating the madness? Like--Nalan is worshipped as a Herald of Justice, but Nale knows he went against his code once in a big way, and now he's convinced that he's the absolute embodiment of law? Ishar is worshipped as the Herald of Luck and Mysteries, etc, but he knows that his knowledge failed him at some juncture, and now he's convinced that he's a god king? Whereas someone like the Pursuer ... what's happening there?

What I'm saying is the following:

• The Investiture that makes up the Heralds and the Fused is mixed in with their mind. It's all the same. 
• In regards to the Heralds, putting down the Oathpact and walking away goes against their Intent in some personal way. Every choice and change they make afterwards manifests as madness particular to them. 
• In regards to the Fused, their Intent, their reason for being, is likely to be the war, or related to the war. What I think is happening is that if they choose to do anything but fight the war, they go mad.

I think this could be simplified down even more: the further Nale gets from the Oathpact, the further he gets from the reason he made that choice to begin with. His feelings of compassion, whatever made him defend a child against "dark forces", everything truly honorable about him, that gets left behind. 

There's been a pattern so far that when one side learns something, the other side learns it, too--so Odium creates the Fused, Honor creates the Heralds. The Knights Radiant arise on one side, and the Fused gain the use of Surges on the other. One side learns of the Anti-Tones and the other side gets that information as well ... it seems like whatever Kaladin eventually ends up doing, it might be used to heal the Fused, as well? If that's possible? Just a thought.

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

OK, the problem I see is that his attributes he is fighting against applied to Roshar (the planet) during Desolations.

I don't think I understand quite what you mean here, could you clarify?

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Unless you assume Honor planned for them to break their oaths. And that implies that the Desolations were planned events.

I personally don't think Honor planned for them to break their oaths. I view the Oathpact as like a tragedy of heroic naivete, to be honest. I think the Desolations weren't planned for, either. I believe that the Oathpact was meant to seal the Fused away forever, the first time, and it just didn't work out that way. The Stormfather's opinion is that only Taln dying was a lucky circumstance that they exploited, and I tend to agree with him on that point.

[+Oltux72]

 

13 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

• Widespread perception of the Heralds and the Fused affects their identity. 

Until a year ago, nobody alive knew what a Fused is and it had been so for millenia. And the Heralds were supposed to be preparing an attack on the Voidbringers in the Tranquiline Halls.

13 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

• The pressure of perception on their Intent causes their Investiture to want to match that perception.
• Their identity wants to do its own thing.
• The difference between their identity and their Intent is so stark that it causes a magical madness that manifests based on how they are perceived.

Is this right? If I could ask, what about perception do you see as instigating the madness? Like--Nalan is worshipped as a Herald of Justice, but Nale knows he went against his code once in a big way, and now he's convinced that he's the absolute embodiment of law? Ishar is worshipped as the Herald of Luck and Mysteries, etc, but he knows that his knowledge failed him at some juncture, and now he's convinced that he's a god king? Whereas someone like the Pursuer ... what's happening there?

Well, to most of Roshar the Heralds are gods

13 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I don't think I understand quite what you mean here, could you clarify?

The guiding principles the Heralds were famous for applied to their activity on Roshar, not their captivity on Braize. There were no armies to lead or codes of law to be written on Braize.

 

[Could Be Fire]

37 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Unless you assume Honor planned for them to break their oaths. And that implies that the Desolations were planned events.

I agree with you. I have gotten the vibe that the original plan may have been for the heralds to be the jailers on Braize. So they planned to give up their lives on Roshar to live eternity on Braize, locking away Fused with them. This is still a massive sacrifice, but I'm not convinced the Heralds/Honor planned for the torture/desolations.

If you look at the Oathpact there's two major factors that seem to allow for the fused returns: 1) Nothing was preventing the Heralds from leaving.  By definition, the oathpact binds Odium forces, but the only thing keeping the Heralds on Braize is their will to be there. 2) The fused were suck on Braize, but the heralds were stuck with them and nothing was stopping Odium's forces from overpowering the heralds and reversing the guard/prisoner dynamic.

[NameIess]

3 hours ago, crème de la crèmling said:

• The Heralds and Fused are attached to Investiture, but the Investiture is a separate entity from their mind.
• Widespread perception of the Heralds and the Fused affects their identity. 
• The pressure of perception on their Intent causes their Investiture to want to match that perception.
• Their identity wants to do its own thing.
• The difference between their identity and their Intent is so stark that it causes a magical madness that manifests based on how they are perceived.

You pretty much got it, but I do think that the Heralds and fused are the same as their power. If they weren't, it likely wouldn't be able to affect their minds so starkly. Also, I think that the insanity doesn't always manifest based on how they are perceived. for example, Taln, Jezrien, Kalak, and Ash are all very different from people's perception of them.

4 hours ago, crème de la crèmling said:

Is this right? If I could ask, what about perception do you see as instigating the madness? Like--Nalan is worshipped as a Herald of Justice, but Nale knows he went against his code once in a big way, and now he's convinced that he's the absolute embodiment of law? Ishar is worshipped as the Herald of Luck and Mysteries, etc, but he knows that his knowledge failed him at some juncture, and now he's convinced that he's a god king? Whereas someone like the Pursuer ... what's happening there?

Nale and Ishar haven't fought against the intents of their powers. It doesn't matter what reality is, they are completely insane. The pursuer is someone who made his own reputation. He perceives himself the same way others perceive him. He can function perfectly while he is pursuing people, but if his tradition is threatened, we saw in RoW how he reacted.

 

[apepi]

I think the person that we have discussed this in the books is Zahel, so lets see what they have to say about this.
 

Quote

The Heralds too,” Zahel said. “When they died, they left an imprint behind. Power that remembered being them. You see, the power wants to be alive.”

Quote

“Lots of ways. For the weaker ones, just kill the body again, make sure no one Invests the soul with more strength, and they’ll slip away in a few minutes. For stronger ones … well, you might be able to starve them. A lot of Type Twos feed on power. Keeps them going.
“These enemies of yours though, I think they’re too strong for that. They’ve lasted thousands of years already, and seem Connected to Odium to feed directly on his power. You’ll have to find a way to disrupt their souls. You can’t just rip them apart; you need a weapon so strong, it unravels the soul.” He squinted, looking off into the distance. “I know through sorry experience those kinds of weapons are very dangerous to make, and never seem to work right.”

Here he talks about how to kill a cognitve shadow.

Quote

“Grand ideals,” Zahel said. “Optimism. Yeah, you’d make a terrible swordmaster. Be wary of those Fused, kid. The longer one of us exists, the more like a spren we become. Consumed by a singular purpose, our minds bound and chained by our Intent. We’re spren masquerading as men. That’s why she takes our memories. She knows we aren’t the actual people who died, but something else given a corpse to inhabit.…”

Here he talks about what happens to cognitive shadows after they live for a long time, reminds me of what happens to a vessel, ever so slowly they just become the intent of the shard that they are holding.

Though....the Heralds seem to be having the opposite problem, they are acting against the intent given to them. Could their souls be 'disrupted' then? Or sense Honor is dead, the Heralds can no longer feed from his power, and that is making them crazy(plus with the thousand years of ptsd sprinkled in). Because when someone speaks an oath, the heralds become more sane, they probably feed off that connection

I don't think it is the Oathpact that is causing it, but maybe circumventing it has caused this to happen. I do think it is caused by something external(not caused by just years of torture). Taln never broke, yet he also seems effected by it.

There is something with Brandon's system and the mentally ill though, Ruin can mentally speak to them(as well as Nightblood), many of the systems requires someone to 'break', they are easier for investiture to influence.
 

[NameIess]

On 7/25/2021 at 3:00 AM, apepi said:

Here he talks about what happens to cognitive shadows after they live for a long time, reminds me of what happens to a vessel, ever so slowly they just become the intent of the shard that they are holding.

Actually, Zahel only says that they slowly become their intent. The distinction being that their intent is not limited to the shard whose investiture keeps them alive.

[Zoey]

On 7/22/2021 at 3:22 PM, Could Be Fire said:

Heralds Madness

The Heralds are insane, and that seems to a plot point of increasing significance with Kaladin’s focus on mental health in RoW, Ishar’s plan being dangled as a plot thread for the upcoming KoW. However, a lot of unclear with the herald's madness.
I don’t think it’s been confirmed but it’s collectively accepted that a major part of the problem is a ‘magical’  inversion of their divine attributes/purpose.

 

 

However, what’s causing this isn’t clear. There are so many factors at play that could be screwing with the Heralds heads:

1. Normal PTSD from millennia of torture + war
2. Immortality related Cognitive shadow decay (brain trying to handle millennia of memories)
3. Spiritweb impact of 'breaking' during the oathpact
4. Spiritweb impact of actually abandoning the oathpact
5. BAM being bound
6. Honor's death/shattering
7. Guilt over abandoning one of their closest companions to be tortured alone
8. ???
9. (Nale specific, but bonding to a Highspren is making him worse)

The heralds seem to think that this is purely a result (1) PTSD. Kalak says that they shouldn't be 'getting worse' anymore. Nale tells Szeth at Thaylen Field his loss of compassion is directly torture-related Ash told Adolin that "thousands of years of torture" is what made the heralds insane. Ishar seems only to make the ideal = lucidity connection when Navani swears her ideal.

Ishar also says he needs to be sane to fix the oathpact, not that fixing the oathpact will make him sane. I don’t think it’s actually on the herald's radar that they have a 'magical' problem.

The source of the magical insanity can't just be the impact of abandoning the oathpact or breaking since Taln seems to still have the 'inverted attribute (resolute/dependable - comatose and cowardice) and he never participated in either of those two things. The cognitive shadow memory problems are definitely an issue but it doesn’t make sense as a root of the herald's ironic madness.

I think it's something later, probably BAM being bound and/or Honor's death, that is causing the 'curse'.

Heralds are closer to Nahal spren than humanity at this point, per Kalak, and also directly connected to Honor (like the Sibling). What happened to the Sibling and all the spren was drastic and completely uwpredicted. Heralds getting uniquely broken (on top of trauma + memory problems) fits with the other effects we've seen.

Furthermore, while, the heralds do seem insane even in the original prologue (Kalak's anxiety, he sees cowardice in Jezerin’s eyes) but it’s nowhere near what we see in modern Roshar. Jezerin is leagues more put together, and while anxiety does seem to be part of Kalak’s madness, but I would argue that his magical anxiety seems to be specifically social anxiety (he’s at his most fearful surrounded by crowds at Gavliar’s party and the Trial) as an inversion of the social organizer role willshapers seems to have had. What we saw in the prologue than the completely reasonable fear of torture driven by PTSD.

Finally, on a meta level, this would also help tie two of the major plot threads (Dalinar’s plan to fix the Heralds and Adolin/Shallan’s quest to release BAM) in KoW.

As I see it, it is the first 7. As it does have magical background, as shown by how they can be made lucid by the opening of Perpendicularities and the swearing of Oaths, and by the various claims by Brandon that it is magical in nature. 

But they do show signs of PTSD, Taln in particular seems to have PTSD alongside the magical stuff.  

Edited September 23, 2021 by Zoey

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, Zoey said:

As I see it, it is the first 7. As it does have magical background, as shown by how they can be made lucid by the opening of Perpendicularities and the swearing of Oaths, and by the various claims by Brandon that it is magical in nature. 

But they do show signs of PTSD, Taln in particular seems to have PTSD alongside the magical stuff.  

Taln actually has moments of lucidity, and seems completly normal during these times.