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The Cosmere Mechanic That Might Cure The Heralds Madness


Harrycrapper

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I was going through the new WoBs from Jordancon and was planning on doing a post pursuant to the WoB about Hemalurgic spikes:

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Spoiler

 

Questioner

The Hemalurgic table, you wrote down atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture, what's the difference between those three. Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have.

So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity.

Questioner

So abilities is like the <hack?> that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Then Investiture is that offworld magics?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, it's the raw power.

Questioner

Nicrosil is their soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially.

Questioner

So how would you go about stealing an offworld power?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to become a sandmaster you would steal with the power ability.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

 

The WoB itself doesn't have much to do with this, but I included it for anyone who might want to know which one I'm referring to. I decided to go look at the list of known Kandra Blessings and one in particular struck me:

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Blessing of Presence:

A pair of copper spikes that grant increased mental capability.[15][17][16] This capability includes the ability to focus despite physical discomfort or distraction, exceptionally sharp memory, resistance to madness, and the inability to lapse into unconsciousness due to shock.[12][18] This Blessing also counters at least some of the mental weakness that is caused by Hemalurgy; kandra with this Blessing are much less vulnerable to being controlled by Ruin than others.[19]

One of the plot threads set up for book 5 was Kaladin being tasked with curing the Heralds' madness and it seems like a daunting task. Brandon has said that the Heralds' madness is magical in nature, or rather caused by factors that were only possible because of magic. So, it stands to reason that something magical is needed to fix it. Hoid has avoided a similar fate somehow by using Breath, but it seemed more like a preventative measure than something that would just fix the Heralds. It's possible that the madness could be cured with a Divine Breath, but there's only one of those on Roshar and it seems to me that more than one Herald needs to be cured. I have doubts that we're going to see Hemalurgic spikes play that significant a role in Stormlight, though Brandon did intend for Hemalurgy to be used throughout the Cosmere, so it is possible. There are two possible ways I see of accomplishing this with the magic systems common to Roshar. First, the less likely one which is taking the Heralds to The Nightwatcher/Cultivation. I find that less likely because if Cultivation was going to help them, I feel she would have in the intervening 4000 years. If I recall correctly, she's pretty mad at them and neither her nor The Nightwatcher would likely appear to them if they went to the valley. It would be more likely if The Nightwatcher was bonded to someone, the respective Bondsmith might be able to convince her to help fix them. The second and more likely method would be some sort of fabrial. The possibilities are pretty open ended for this one. It could be something similar to Navani's Painrial, but would likely need a Voidspren or Corrupted spren. There are so many unknown spren of those varieties that I feel it would be the most likely place for a spren that can mimic this mechanic. 

 

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I myself am rather suspicious that "Meet Me in Shinovar" is a trap, or at least a red herring. (Not to mention that Shinovar is a pretty big place - was the Oathgate of Shinovar the implied location?)

Assuming one can trust that "suddenly sane sounding Ishar" was not an act (after all, we'd been warned nearly from Book One of SA in a WoB, "Do not trust anything a Herald says. Ever."), but instead a temporary side effect of Navani leveling up to become the Sibling Bondsmith:

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“Dalinar. Dalinar Kholin.

“I can see clearly. I do not know why. Has a Bondsmith been sworn? We have a Connection, all of us... Nevertheless, I feel my sanity slipping. My mind is broken, and I do not know if it can be healed.

"Perhaps you can restore me for a short time after an Ideal is spoken near me. Everyone sees a little more clearly when a Radiant touches the Spiritual Realm. For now, listen well. I have the answer, a way to fix the problems that beset us. Come to me in Shinovar. I can reset the Oathpact, though I must be sane to do it. I must … have help … to…”

The indicator we can maybe trust that this really is a "sane Ishar" is that he addresses Dalinar by name, rather than "Champion of Odium!" as Tezim had been doing.

But his moment of sanity due to Navani swearing an Ideal only lasted long enough for him to say a few sentences! Even if done again, would that "short time" be enough for him to do anything useful?

Besides, shouldn't he have had this "moment of clarity" thing when Dalinar swore Bondsmith Ideals earlier? (Would it have to be a Bondsmith, for the Connection to Ishar?) What about Ash and Taln having similar lucidity at Thaylen Fields, was that everywhere to all Heralds or just to them as the two who were present (and if so, ... what about Nale, wasn't he also there?).

[Pet theory: Ishar DID have moments of lucidity when Dalinar swore his first two Ideals at the Battle of Narak, and then again at Thaylen Fields, and that's when he went to fetch his Honorblade from Shinovar because he'd need it to "reset the Oathpact" except he soon went insane again.]

But even if "restored to sanity", we are still talking about nine Heralds who forswore the Oathpact at Aharietiam before sliding into insanity. I am not sure that "resetting the Oathpact" means what Dalinar thinks it would mean.

Last thought in this post on Heraldic Insanity: the same most recent set of WoBs from JordanCon you mention also drop that Taln did not, in fact, break, so his mental scrambling is not due to 4,000 years of torture, but some other kind of "Ideal Reversal" magical effect that is making him, along with the other Heralds, exemplify opposite traits to their original virtues ("Once, nothing would have kept him from the battlefield when other men died. Today, he had hidden and whimpered during the fighting.")

Edited by robardin
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On 7/21/2021 at 7:02 AM, robardin said:

What about Ash and Taln having similar lucidity at Thaylen Fields, was that everywhere to all Heralds or just to them as the two who were present

That's an interesting point. Navani's oath empowering Ishar implies that it's a widespread thing, but Ishar does explicitly say that the ideal must be "spoken near [him]". Maybe he has a very lose interpretation of near? Tashikk/Emul are close the Urithiru on the scale of Roshar as a whole.

The only other herald we have a viewpoint on when we know an oath is sworn is Nale, watching Szeth from the sky at Thalen Fields. He does seem less crazy to me in the conversation he has with Szeth right after?

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My judgment is flawed.” He narrowed his eyes. “I used to be able to feel, Szeth-son-Neturo. I used to have compassion."..."The law is made by men, so it is not perfect either. It is not perfection we seek, for perfection is impossible. It is instead consistency."

But he seems to have a moment of 'lucidity' to me before the battle even starts when he prevents Szeth from swearing directly to him.

 

On 7/21/2021 at 7:02 AM, robardin said:

[Pet theory: Ishar DID have moments of lucidity when Dalinar swore his first two Ideals at the Battle of Narak, and then again at Thaylen Fields, and that's when he went to fetch his Honorblade from Shinovar because he'd need it to "reset the Oathpact" except he soon went insane again.]

I like this. It matches up with the timeline.

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1 hour ago, Could Be Fire said:

That's an interesting point. Navani's oath empowering Ishar implies that it's a widespread thing, but Ishar does explicitly say that the ideal must be "spoken near [him]". Maybe he has a very lose interpretation of near? Tashikk/Emul are close the Urithiru on the scale of Roshar as a whole.

Since Dalinar was at Ur when he swore his two first ideal that should still be at least one previous moment of lucidity

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18 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

That's an interesting point. Navani's oath empowering Ishar implies that it's a widespread thing, but Ishar does explicitly say that the ideal must be "spoken near [him]". Maybe he has a very lose interpretation of near? Tashikk/Emul are close the Urithiru on the scale of Roshar as a whole.

The only other herald we have a viewpoint on when we know an oath is sworn is Nale, watching Szeth from the sky at Thalen Fields. He does seem less crazy to me in the conversation he has with Szeth right after?

But he seems to have a moment of 'lucidity' to me before the battle even starts when he prevents Szeth from swearing directly to him.

11 hours ago, Nameless said:

Nale had a moment of lucidity when Lift spoke her third ideal in Edgedancer.

I tell you, something does not jibe with what (semi-?) sane Ishar (henceforth referred to just as Ishar, with "Tezim" being the crazy one proclaiming himself the Almighty) says about suddenly seeing clearly, and what we have seen in Heralds apparently regaining sanity for a little while thus far.

To be fair, Ishar did say "perhaps" as if he's not sure - even as a Herald who's live for millennia before and after Aharietiam, he's never come through Heraldic insanity before.

First he supposes he sudden clarity was due to "another Bondsmith" being sworn, due to the Connection he has with all Bondsmiths, referring to Navani. That would imply he had similar moments when Dalinar earlier swore his Ideals. We've seen that Connection doesn't have to work in proximity, depending on the effect.

He also suggests that an Ideal "spoken near me", "when a Radiant touches the Spiritual Realm", could cause him to see "more clearly" once again - suggesting two things: that it's a Spiritual effect (which would mean his Connection to Navani swearing as a Bondsmith may not have required proximity), and that maybe another Radiant order swearing an Ideal would still "touch him" but to a lesser degree and requiring proximity (similar to how Regrowth on someone else works less well than a Radiant healing themself with Stormlight or Regrowth).

Some of this rings true. Tken at face value, we've seen "moments of lucidity" from Heralds a few times:

  • Nalan on the rooftop in Yeddaw with the candlest-- (sorry) in Edgedancer 
    • Lift had just sworn her Third Ideal
  • Taln and Ash at Thaylen Fields in Oathbringer
    • Dalinar had just sworn his Third Ideal and UNITED the Three Realms
    • He's renewed spheres and formed Perpendicularities since then, without that effect...
      • So maybe that was a super-special time related to swearing an Ideal?
  • Ishar at his Tukari camp on the border with Emul in Rhythm of War
    • Navani had just formed a Bondsmith Nahel bond with the Sibling, far away in Urithiru

I don't think that Nalan's comment to Szeth at Thaylen Fields that "I used to be able to feel... I can remember those days, before..." was indicative of "lucidity", as his particular insanity has to do with going numb, and following "letter of the law" interpretations to contradictory conclusions (how can his lucidity include joining the side that he originally swore the Oathpact to fight against that made him the Skybreaker Herald in the first place, before such powers even aligned with highspren?). And he refers to that "feeling stuff and all" in the past tense.

I think Nalan is simply more aware of what's happened to him, and doesn't usually feel it's a bad thing. He even says to Lift the first time he meets her (at the Azish palace) that he is "beyond" feeling things as a positive development for a Fifth Ideal Skybreaker. (Which is eerily similar to Moash appreciating not feeling guilt for betraying Kaladin or killing Teft.)

So yes, in all three examples, either a Radiant Third Ideal was sworn near them, or an initial bond with a spren of the same Order as the Herald.

But we DON'T see evidence of "moments of lucidty" for Ash when Shallan swore her Third Ideal or any of her new Lightweavers form their Nahel bonds; or Jezrien/Ahu when Kaladin swore and/or Windrunners gained their Blades.

Maybe they did, and we just didn't see it happen? But Ash has been resident in Urithiru for a while now? But did Nalan act/talk like he did with Lift, while interacting with Szeth? I don't think so.

Which brings me back to my second point - other than Taln, even with lucidity restored, aren't the motives of the Heralds still going to be somewhat suspect in that they are only going to be restored to the same crew who foreswore the Oathpact? I strongly suspect Ishar's goal is to "reset" the Oathpact by transferring its obligations away from themselves, at a minimum. It's not going to just be a "reboot" like restarting a computer, but a reboot where the characters are now portrayed by different people.

Edited by robardin
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1 hour ago, robardin said:

Maybe they did, and we just didn't see it happen? But Ash has been resident in Urithiru for a while now?

She's not actually, I don't remember where Jasnah hid them but it was not Ur

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