Bnaya

Ishar is burning atium!

31 posts in this topic

"It was as if … as if they were trying to hit where Ishar was, while he was able to move in anticipation of where they would be." (ch. 111)

My point is, that's Spiritual Realm something, and not his skill.

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1 hour ago, Bnaya said:

"It was as if … as if they were trying to hit where Ishar was, while he was able to move in anticipation of where they would be." (ch. 111)

My point is, that's Spiritual Realm something, and not his skill.

Connecting himself to the future? :huh: Is it that easy to explain?

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41 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Connecting himself to the future? :huh: Is it that easy to explain?

More like Connecting to their future but it’s mostly the same

Probably is easier said than done…

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

More like Connecting to their future but it’s mostly the same

Probably is easier said than done…

Wait, what if he's just Connecting to their cognitive aspects so he can perceive their thoughts, and act in accordance to them.

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4 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Wait, what if he's just Connecting to their cognitive aspects so he can perceive their thoughts, and act in accordance to them.

That’s…not how Cognitive Aspects work, I don’t think so at least

He can be Connecting to their neurons and be getting more processing power from some more shenanigans so he can interpret messages before the limbs get them (That’s faster than the speed of light reactions though…)

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

That’s…not how Cognitive Aspects work, I don’t think so at least

Fair enough, I'm no expert.

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

He can be Connecting to their neurons and be getting more processing power from some more shenanigans so he can interpret messages before the limbs get them (That’s faster than the speed of light reactions though…)

Euh, sounds like Quantum Entanglement at that point. :P

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No, it's skill.

Otherwise the other Heralds couldn't do it.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

No, it's skill.

Otherwise the other Heralds couldn't do it.

That was my read of it, but I was trying to fit it in with Realmatics since that was what the OP was going for

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1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

That was my read of it, but I was trying to fit it in with Realmatics since that was what the OP was going for

According to Brandon it's skill

Spoiler

Questioner

How would Adolin fare against the greats like Lan, Rand, Galad, and how would Kaladin and his spear fare against Mat?

Brandon Sanderson

It’s really hard to say this, because what are different characters’ skill levels and things? For instance, I generally count Lan as the strongest and the best. My [Wheel of Time] books that I wrote show that. I think Lan would beat Adolin. You just can’t replace the twenty years of intense practice that Lan has, and the wisdom, no matter how talented of a rookie you are -- even though Adolin is not a rookie. I think Lan could go toe-to-toe with anyone non-immortal in the cosmere, because a lot of the cosmere people have an advantage, right? Taln has spent 4,000 years practicing with weapons. Granted, he spent a bunch of that time being tortured as well, but you know. He has many lifetimes behind him, and has been able to be killed making mistakes and never make those mistakes again. That is a leg up on someone like Lan or like Adolin that is just of a supernatural level. And so, while I think Lan would beat any swordsman in a fair fight from the Cosmere, I would count anyone who has a greatly expanded lifespan as an unfair fight. Like, I don’t think Lan would be able to stand against the better duelists among the Heralds or even against Vasher. Vasher’s got multiple lifetimes of practicing with the sword.

How would Kaladin do against Mat? It depends, Mat’s luck is a very big wildcard, and how is the luck on Mat’s side and how is karma working in Mat’s favor or against him in that given moment? That’s part of what makes Mat fun. So Kaladin is a soldier, again, not a duelist. Kaladin is really good with a spear, but his training is in war, his training is to be a battlefield captain. What even is Mat? Mat has been trained by fate itself with weapons, which is just really hard to play. Let’s call that a tie, edge probably to Kaladin.

Lan beats Adolin or basically any duelist but you put him up against the Heralds and he has a much harder time.

YouTube Livestream 16 (Aug. 20, 2020)

 

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6 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, it's skill.

Otherwise the other Heralds couldn't do it.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

According to Brandon it's skill

  Hide contents

Questioner

How would Adolin fare against the greats like Lan, Rand, Galad, and how would Kaladin and his spear fare against Mat?

Brandon Sanderson

It’s really hard to say this, because what are different characters’ skill levels and things? For instance, I generally count Lan as the strongest and the best. My [Wheel of Time] books that I wrote show that. I think Lan would beat Adolin. You just can’t replace the twenty years of intense practice that Lan has, and the wisdom, no matter how talented of a rookie you are -- even though Adolin is not a rookie. I think Lan could go toe-to-toe with anyone non-immortal in the cosmere, because a lot of the cosmere people have an advantage, right? Taln has spent 4,000 years practicing with weapons. Granted, he spent a bunch of that time being tortured as well, but you know. He has many lifetimes behind him, and has been able to be killed making mistakes and never make those mistakes again. That is a leg up on someone like Lan or like Adolin that is just of a supernatural level. And so, while I think Lan would beat any swordsman in a fair fight from the Cosmere, I would count anyone who has a greatly expanded lifespan as an unfair fight. Like, I don’t think Lan would be able to stand against the better duelists among the Heralds or even against Vasher. Vasher’s got multiple lifetimes of practicing with the sword.

How would Kaladin do against Mat? It depends, Mat’s luck is a very big wildcard, and how is the luck on Mat’s side and how is karma working in Mat’s favor or against him in that given moment? That’s part of what makes Mat fun. So Kaladin is a soldier, again, not a duelist. Kaladin is really good with a spear, but his training is in war, his training is to be a battlefield captain. What even is Mat? Mat has been trained by fate itself with weapons, which is just really hard to play. Let’s call that a tie, edge probably to Kaladin.

Lan beats Adolin or basically any duelist but you put him up against the Heralds and he has a much harder time.

YouTube Livestream 16 (Aug. 20, 2020)

 

I don't see anything implying Ishar is not the only one able to do the apparent foresight thing.

Anyway I'm not sure how relevant this is to this but I think it'd be possible with C-duralumin: if you increase enough your connection with the person you should be able to know them deeply enough to understand what that person is trying to do with the faintest of movement, which to the outside observer will look like you're reacting before the person actually moves

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I think there's a tendency for Cosmere fans to come up with complex explanations through magic rather than just accept the simpler mundane answer. It's like how everyone was saying that Dienno must be a surgebinder because how else could he possibly be able to escape shackles?

In this case, the purpose of the scene is to show how the millenia of combat have made the heralds superhumanly skilled at fighting. He fights as though he can see the moves they're about to make because he's just that good, but he's not even the best of the heralds in sword fighting.

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@LuckyJim perhaps you're right. But I think that tendency is justified even if its lead us to wrong assumptions and interpretations. Brandon write in a way that whenever I reread one of his books I discover more forshadowing. So perhaps its nothing this time, but many times its implying something.

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Ishar is a little bit... interesting in this sense. This could be nothing more than Brandon saying just how good Ishar is at combat, with the sheer amount of experience he has, which is totally fine. But... there's more weird stuff about him that may or may not paint a bigger picture.

First of all, consider that Ishar was the first Odium managed to tempt into experimenting with the Surges, way back on Ashyn. Which means Ishar, at least at one point, had some void associations (I'm not saying it was voidbinding, just... he had enough Odious elements to his personality at some point, maybe ambition, greed, I dunno, some seed of darkness, that Odium was able to use to begin to tempt him. And that road eventually did lead to the destruction of Ashyn, even if Ishar eventually became firmly opposed to Odium.)

Second, Shalash mentions that Ishar (and Jezrein) are actual scholars of realmatics.

Third, Ishar has been called with the moniker "Herald of Luck." Take that in for a second. They call the prime Herald, the guy who is the patron of the Order that literally heads the Knights Radiant, the guy who is - according to some - literally responsible for sealing away the Fused, the Binder of Gods, the guy who forged the Knights Radiant... they don't call him the Herald of Bonds, or some name that evokes Connection as a spiritual attribute. Nope. They call him Herald of Luck. Luck, a word intricately tied to Fortune, which itself is associated with or the underlying mechanism for futuresight. Which is... interesting, considering how a significant portion of Roshar is firmly opposed to futuresight and considers it strongly of the enemy, of Odium. Herald of Luck is almost a benign version of that, where they almost want to say, "look, this guy does some weird futuresight fortune shenanigans, but we can't say that, because you know, that'd make him evil and all, so let's call him lucky instead."

Luck has also been associated with Fortune on Scadrial, where people consider Fortune feruchemy to essentially be manipulating luck.

There's other potential fortune shenanigans going on with the Heralds and the humans of that time (which is kind of okay, considering Odium's influence at the time), if Shalash was indeed named Shalash after the Aons Shao - Ale - Ashe. That literally means that her name is "Transformation - Beauty - Illumination." Which is crazy, because that's literally what Rosharan Lightweaving is - expressions of art and beauty arising between and from the blending of the Surges of Transformation and Illumination. If Shalash was named such at birth, with deliberation and intent, then she was named Lightweaver before there was a lightweaver Honorblade, and before she was given or had taken on that role and place, making her name almost a prophecy.

(Incidentally, Ale, the Aon for Beauty, is also the Aon of the Seon Shallan is given by Mraize).

So... I don't know if this is supernaturally relevant or not. It's interesting that Brandon went with describing Ishar fighting like that, because you have to assume that he was aware that that's exactly how he would describe someone fighting with Atium. None of the other corroborating pieces are actual facts we know, just things we can read into.

Edited by asmodeus
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I also have to agree that the Heralds have something more than skill and practice going for them. Remember that all of the Fused have had just as much time to hone their skills, and not one of them has been described as being on a level with one of the Heralds. And we know it isnt just Ishar either, Nalan catches an arrow shot by Cord from mere feet away, something that is described as an inhuman feat in the text.

And back in WoR Taln, who was a mumbling mess snatched Iyatil's dart from the air. That cannot be skill. That has to be supernatural somehow.

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5 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I also have to agree that the Heralds have something more than skill and practice going for them. Remember that all of the Fused have had just as much time to hone their skills, and not one of them has been described as being on a level with one of the Heralds. And we know it isnt just Ishar either, Nalan catches an arrow shot by Cord from mere feet away, something that is described as an inhuman feat in the text.

And back in WoR Taln, who was a mumbling mess snatched Iyatil's dart from the air. That cannot be skill. That has to be supernatural somehow.

well there are thousands of Fused but only ten Heralds.

The Heralds had to be just as good if not better than all of them combined.

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5 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I also have to agree that the Heralds have something more than skill and practice going for them. Remember that all of the Fused have had just as much time to hone their skills, and not one of them has been described as being on a level with one of the Heralds. And we know it isnt just Ishar either, Nalan catches an arrow shot by Cord from mere feet away, something that is described as an inhuman feat in the text.

And back in WoR Taln, who was a mumbling mess snatched Iyatil's dart from the air. That cannot be skill. That has to be supernatural somehow.

I agree that the heralds have at least slightly supernatural abilities.

(WoKPrime spoilers)

Spoiler

Taln has increased endurance, sight, and other physical abilities, maybe something along the lines of Captain america.

 

 

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I don't think it is just normal skill. I feel like it is just some connection/spiritual power gobbledy goop, similar to atium but not the same.

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Note that Ishar is explicitly stated do be average in skill among the Heralds by the Stormfather; that means that there are some (Taln, Chana and probably Jezrien and Kalak) who are better than he is. None of the others should have any Connection hax powers that would let them get a peek at the future, or at least none that can be exploited in the heat of battle. If Ishar really has some method of combat futuresight, you'd expect him to be one of the better fighters, not baseline.

So yeah, I think it really is just thousands of years of skill and no special power he has access to that made him so good in that fight.

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6 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Note that Ishar is explicitly stated do be average in skill among the Heralds by the Stormfather; that means that there are some (Taln, Chana and probably Jezrien and Kalak) who are better than he is. None of the others should have any Connection hax powers that would let them get a peek at the future, or at least none that can be exploited in the heat of battle. If Ishar really has some method of combat futuresight, you'd expect him to be one of the better fighters, not baseline.

So yeah, I think it really is just thousands of years of skill and no special power he has access to that made him so good in that fight.

You can beat future sight by pure skill. Also I don't believe Ishar had future sight before Honour's death

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19 hours ago, mathiau said:

You can beat future sight by pure skill. Also I don't believe Ishar had future sight before Honour's death

Well then how is he getting it?

Future sight is related to Fortune, not Connection.

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On 19/07/2021 at 0:39 PM, Bnaya said:

"It was as if … as if they were trying to hit where Ishar was, while he was able to move in anticipation of where they would be." (ch. 111)

My point is, that's Spiritual Realm something, and not his skill.

Presumably atium does some spiritual stuff that allows one to see the future, as a bond smith he can probably replicate it

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20 hours ago, Kalak_ said:

Presumably atium does some spiritual stuff that allows one to see the future, as a bond smith he can probably replicate it

Supposedly it Connects you to the Spiritual Realm a little bit, and that's why Duralumin-boosting it a la Elend at the end of HoA gives you a total vision of future-sight, because you break through and actually "see" the SR in a way that you can comprehend because of the mental boost of Atium also being enhanced by Duralumin.

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21 hours ago, Kalak_ said:

Presumably atium does some spiritual stuff that allows one to see the future, as a bond smith he can probably replicate it

 

4 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Supposedly it Connects you to the Spiritual Realm a little bit, and that's why Duralumin-boosting it a la Elend at the end of HoA gives you a total vision of future-sight, because you break through and actually "see" the SR in a way that you can comprehend because of the mental boost of Atium also being enhanced by Duralumin.

 

To the both of you Atium uses Fortune,

Ishar uses Connection.

Totally different things, both in the spiritual realm yes, but different.

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3 hours ago, Frustration said:

To the both of you Atium uses Fortune,

Ishar uses Connection.

Totally different things, both in the spiritual realm yes, but different.

Let's see if I can find some WoBs that contradict this.

Quote

Questioner

When will we visit the Spiritual Realm like we have done the Cognitive Realm.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you already have, briefly when Elend transcended and burned atium with duralumin.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

Hmm, not quite. Let me keep looking...

Quote

fryman1701

Would burning atium and duralumin together grant view of single far future or widespread of everyone's near future?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't answered specifically what happens, but there is a hint at the end of Hero of Ages.

Footnote: Brandon has since said that burning atium and duralumin together allows one to peer directly into the Spiritual Realm.
General Twitter 2013 (Aug. 11, 2013)

The footnote there especially makes me wonder.

Quote

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

Hm. Maybe it isn't as clear-cut as I was remembering. Oh well!

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