silver-the-ridgerunner

Just finished my reread of RoW. In case you're in the mood for the completely bonkers... here are all my theories for the rest of the Archive.

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Posted (edited)

Spoilers RoW - Spoilers Dawnshard - Spoilers All Cosmere - SPOILERS HERE - SPOILERS THERE - SPOILERS BLOODY EVERYWHERE

...now that we've scared off the neophytes:

 

I haven't read a lot of Stormlight theories. I'm going to start that right now. But I've spent a lot of time reading the books, and reading the blessed Coppermind. So based on too much information and too little community critique... here are my craycray ideas about the Cosmere:

Roshar is Yolen. The original planet, home of Adonalsium, is hidden in the Physical by crem (much like Akinah)... and known so commonly as Roshar that it is shrouded in the cognitive. Adonalsium was Shattered at the Shattered Plains, and the warcamps were the loci of the vessels who Ascended to become the first Shards. The burst of power from the Shattering created so many features of Roshar, such as the Windblades, as a result of cymatics. Rosharan Highstorms are driven by the spren of this storm - basically its memory - imprinted on the cognition of the very world. Every highstorm is the memory of the shatterstorm. Cusicesh is the spren of everyone on Yolen recognizing the Shattering - the spren of "a million voices crying out in terror," Alderaan-style. The reason the three realms on Roshar bleed over into each other so much is because of the realmatic trauma of the shattering - a kind of permanent perpendicularization.

The ancestors of the Alethi are from Ashyn. The ancestors of the Ashynites were from Yolen. As such, they share a common ancestry with the Shin, who never left Yolen. (Alethkar-son-son-Shinovar). This explains their continued use of stone, which is but a memory of what once was used to keep the Fain at bay. The crem-based life of Roshar is either Fainish, or the result of Fainish adaptation to Roshar - that is to say, to the introduction of the crem cycle. This possibly aided by Cultivation, and/or Dawnshardic influence - or maybe Cult simply created the context which would cause 'evolution' in the direction she desired, God do I love Cult, she storming owns.

In this same manner, the races of Roshar are mostly the result of interspecies combination caused at a Deific level. We've seen part-human, part Dysian Aimian; part-human, part Siah Aimian; part human, part Parsh... what is hiding in plain sight is that the Parsh themselves are part human, part dragon. Hence their limited but impressive ability to shapeshift, and their Revisionist Smaug hoarding of gems.

Sja-anat's "Enlightenment" is literally adding a light. Five broams says Horneater White is how Brandon thinks Hornitos is pronounced.

Axies the Collector is of Whimsy. So is his race. His Collectoriness is his Whim... and he can change his appearance on a whim as well.

I'm guessing that the Dysian Aimians are of one of the remaining two shards - probably a complement of Invention, such as Observation - or maybe Fascination. The planet-names of the Threnodite System are all about songs for the dead. They are unrelated to Ambition. They're a little related to Mercy. Maybe. But I wonder if the original Shard of that system was something like Mourning, or Grief, or maybe even Celebration. I wonder if that shard is still in the Threnodite System - maybe Celebration plus the presence of a dead Shard equals Mourning. 

Harmony will fail to turn Waxillium Ladrian into his prime agent. This is mainly because Harmony's mutually-exclusive powers prevent him from making something into something-else. (His Shard-name could very well be "Laissez-faire.") As a result, he will need to recruit an Agent from offworld. Someone who is already brilliant and capable. Someone who can serve with honor. Someone who, opposite of Sazed, can put on a different intent and skillset to meet the particular challenge at hand - a little like the halfway point between a kandra and a human. Someone who is already involved with a Scadrian organization. Someone who is already involved with an organization dedicated, by happy accident, into discovering how someone with a spren-bond could leave Roshar. Harmony thinks he needs a "sword," but what he really needs is a "little knife." 

Shallan’s mother was the Herald Chanarach. When Shallan manifested surgebinding, her mother tried to kill her. Shallan killed her in self-defence - but in doing so, she started the False Desolation. I also wonder whether Shallan killed her mother, not with Pattern, and not with Testament, but with something else - either a permadeath weapon, like the knife that killed Jezerien, or a gem-on-a-stick weapon, that killed her mother's physical form but trapped her mother's spiritual aspect in the gem, which was then hidden in the box - either to remain trapped forever, or shattered and sent back to Damnation, starting the cycle of desolation BUT allowing for her immediate rebirth. (Poor Lin!)

Jasnah is trying to get pregnant by Hoid.

The Dawnshards are the building blocks of life. In the context of the world - of what an evolutionary biologist might call *evolutionary pressures* - they are Adaptation, Perseverence, Mating, and Multiplying. Devoid of their context, they are, at their most fundamental levels, CHANGE, SURVIVE, UNITE, and DIVIDE, respectively. At a more programmer level (Cosmere's Game Of Life?) they are +CHANGE, -CHANGE, COMBINATION, and REPRODUCTION. (Or on an OS level, "Edit" "Save" "Merge" and "Duplicate"). 

As of the current moment - the end of RoW, and the end of Era 2 Book 3 - the Dawnshards are held by Rysn (CHANGE), Kelsier (SURVIVE), The Stormfather (UNITE) in trust for a worthy host, and I'm guessing Jaddeth for Divide. The effects of this can be seen in Chiri-chiri's evolution; Kelsier's sheer inability to stop being alive; and Dalinar's desire to Unite Them... which so far expresses itself mostly in political terms, but is probably not orthogonal to the fact that, as has often been commented upon, suddenly and irrepressably, Dalinar f---s.

Vstim was training Rysn to be a Dawnshard. He made her fit to hold it well, and also developed her Connection to its evolutionary concept sufficient for her to claim it. He arranged for her to have a larkin, and a ship. This smacks of Cultivation’s work with Taravangian, but is rather less direct. Perhaps Vstim is an agent of Cult. Perhaps he visited the Nightwatcher and as a result has become her pawn unknowingly. Or perhaps the indirectness of his actions is based upon an oath of noninterference… because Vstim is Frost.

The reason that Investiture on Scadrial always re-gathers is due (howsoever indirectly) to the presence of the Dawnshard SURVIVE. The reason behind so many of the racial hybrids on Roshar is the presence of the two Dawnshards, UNITY and CHANGE. 

The reason that Kelsier and Hoid immediately wanted to punch each other - and Hoid was able to! - is because of their closeness to Dawnshards. We know that Kelsier is Mr. SURVIVE. Hoid might have also held SURVIVE, and perhaps the Dawnshards are like storming magnets, whereby identical polarities repulse. Or Hoid might have held CHANGE, and as such they are naturally opposed. Personally I prefer the former logic, because... um... well... RYSN/KELSIER. IS THE SHIP THAT I DID NOT KNOW I NEEDED BUT NOW I DO I DO I DOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Larkin/lanceryn are guardians of Dawnshards because they prevent the Dawnshard-holder from gaining Investiture. They are like the tamper in the core of a nuclear bomb. (Someone get Kelsier a gang... that is entirely made up of EDIT: Leechers.)

The forging of Nightblood took "ten thousand breaths" but I bet it also involved ten thousand hemalurgic spikings. This is related to the growing theme in the Archive of "is it okay to do evil to make a technology that will do more good?" - which is very Ishar and just SO DAMN TARAVANGIAN. (As an aside: I wonder if Nightblood was cast or forged. Unwrought steel naturally has a crystaline structure, quite akin to a gem.) (As another aside, I bet the Conventicle of Seran was founded by one or more of the Five Scholars - at least Shashara - and its name is related to the name she used when she was on Scadrial.)

Speaking of awakening, command, intent, and visualization: I am told that humans dream in black and white. I wonder if that's why Awakening requires color, to make our dreams reality?

Aaand speaking of ethics: Odium's champion is going to be someone Dalinar cannot kill. Adolin? Kaladin? Gavinor? The ghost of Evi?

Dalinar will "lose" this rigged contest... but also, *he will be glad to lose*! The end of Stormlight 5 will have the humans of Roshar abandon the planet to Odium. More specifically, they will cede the planet to Toadium, in reparation for bringing the Void and enslaving the Parshmen lo so many years ago. (Stormlight is anticolonialist literature?!?). The Shin will remain, as they predate arrival of humans from Ashyn. Maybe *some* humans will, too. But some will go. They will leave Roshar behind. And this sets us up for the Stormlight Archive Back 5 to suddenly and fully go COSMIC STORMING COSMERE. Dalinar and Navani will go to Sel (Dalinar to Unite that which was splintered; Navani to study seons and aons and basically become Ada Lovelace but for MAGIC), Shallan will go to Scadrial to become Harmony's Mara Jade, and Jasnah will lead the Alethi to Ashyn to try to de-storm the planet of Honor. AND I MENTIONED KELSIER/RYSN RIGHT?!?!?!

But not "Toadium." Actually "Passavangian." Because:

The Oathpact was a deal between Honor and Odium to fight FOR THE SAKE OF FIGHTING. Odium would send his forces after Honor, and thus be his Hateful self. Honor, in turn, was the anti-Yoda, and thought that wars DO make one great - and longed to provide his people with an endless war in which they could fight and die in glory. This is the truth which the Knights Radiant learned, leading to the Recreance. I would even guess that Koravellium betrayed Tan to Rayse in desperate hope to end their mutual madness (shard-savantism + toxic masculinity = you're gonna have a bad time). El wishes to continue this fight, probably by going after the forces of Valor in big bad Infinity War II Interplanetary Boogaloo. The real test will be whether Odium can truly be transformed into Passion as once he was, causing El to rip off his armor and return to his carapace... a very heavy-metal version of swords-into-plowshares.

ADDITION: I still wonder if Ba-ado-Mishram is actually the Sibling - broken of light, trapped in a gem - already bonded by Navani.

ADDITION: I bet Kaladin will will sacrifice himself to save Moash, even though Moash has not been redeemed. This might be his fifth Ideal. Or, it might be him being unable to swear the fifth Ideal! In either event, it will be so damn Honorable that we'll get Kalavast. 

ADDITION: I believe that the most important person in the entire storming cosmere is our sweet, our beloved, all-around best twink in fiction, Adolin Kholin. And why? Because he is Connecting so strongly to Mya. He's not just going to reverse the Deadeye-ness. He's not going to just become an Edgedancer. No. No. He's going to form a bond with a spren WITHOUT SWEARING  THE IMMORTAL WORDS. He's going to form a Nahel outside of the strictures that Honor placed on Surgebinding on Roshar. He's going to be a Radiant without being a Knight. And this will be both the key to Connecting with Investiture on other worlds... and also will make Surgebinding on Roshar as dangerous as it was on Ashyn. Yeeeeesh.

ADDITION: My guess is that Urithiru is one leg of a Rosharan Bifrost. When you turn it on, it makes a bridge to another similar device on Ashyn. This is how the Ashynites got to Roshar in the first place. However, I also have an alternate guess that is probably mutually exclusive - that the gateway to Ashyn is still open, that it's at the Origin, and that it's the source of all the crem on Roshar. ("Ashyn fell from the sky.")

ADDITION: Adonalsium was not actually shattered. It was split, like light by prisms. No, not actually like, but literally. A Dawnshard is a pure Command, wrought into a crystalline lattice so that it can capture investiture, and held by (as) a person in order to supply Vessel-like Intent. (I half wonder whether Hoid's name when he was a youthful otherkin on Yolish Tumblr was Feldspathoid The Dragon, hence "hoid.") I think that the Sixteen thought they would split the light of God off into the world(s). But. But! They used gems that contained TOO MUCH DAMN ALUMINUM. (Such as topaz!). This trapped the Investiture, forcing the Ascension of those who held these gems. 

ADDITION: I really wonder if Shallan's mother was planning on having more children. Like, 5 or 6 more. Think about that for a hot minute.

ADDITION: I wonder if the way you "wound" a Shard is to convince them to betray their Intent. The Sixteen made a promise not to reform Adonalsium. From the get-go, this limited Ambition's ambition to such an extent that they were in internal conflict, and thus injured. Exploiting this injury was easy for our boy Rayse The Roof. By the same token, the infinite loop of the Desolations grew so dishonorable that Honor began to lose himself within it. Kind of like if Cultivation was asked to *not* prune, such as by choosing to *not* nuke every human on Roshar except Kharbranth. I wonder if Koravellium is setting herself to be Splintered, or even killed, by making such a choice - as part of a plan to kill Odium - or even, as part of a plan to let some others (Dalinar and Navani?) Ascend to Unity. 

Also the binding of Ba-ado-Mishram is the source of the taint on saidin. Okay I'm done now.

-silver the ridgerunner

(yes, actual name) (yes, actual job title)

thanks for being the best fandom. just, the best. <3

Edited by silver-the-thruhiker
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53 minutes ago, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Also the binding of Ba-ado-Mishram is the source of the taint on saidin.

Brilliant! [WoT spoilers follow]

Spoiler

The Honorblades were forged out of the seals to the prison

Odium tried to corrupt Roshar's spiritweb, but Honor United all the bits of the corruption into one entity, Ba-Ado-Mishram

Her "imprisonment" in the gemstone actually Spiritually Hemalurgically spiked her into the concept of polestones, at which point she was able to backdoor her way into Honor via the Sibling (who is manifested as gemstones), but then the Shards cut the Sibling off from their tones to keep BAM from making her way to Cultivation (Cultivation later restored her tone to the Sibling once she was sure Mishram was stuck in just Honor)

Tanavast's death was actually him putting himself into the Stormfather to create this Age's version of the Eye of the World (now the Eye of the Storm), a pure untainted version of himself

The Shattered Plains were actually formed when Honor and Cultivation attempted to blare some speakers really loudly and expel Odium from the system with his anti-tone, but it didn't work

 

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9 hours ago, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Roshar is Yolen. The original planet, home of Adonalsium, is hidden in the Physical by crem (much like Akinah)... and known so commonly as Roshar that it is shrouded in the cognitive. Adonalsium was Shattered at the Shattered Plains, and the warcamps were the loci of the vessels who Ascended to become the first Shards. The burst of power from the Shattering created so many features of Roshar, such as the Windblades, as a result of cymatics. Rosharan Highstorms are driven by the spren of this storm - basically its memory - imprinted on the cognition of the very world. Every highstorm is the memory of the shatterstorm. Cusicesh is the spren of everyone on Yolen recognizing the Shattering - the spren of "a million voices crying out in terror," Alderaan-style. The reason the three realms on Roshar bleed over into each other so much is because of the realmatic trauma of the shattering - a kind of permanent perpendicularization.

Have you read the Traveler?, it's set on Era1 Yolen and as you can see is very much not on Roshar

Quote

In this same manner, the races of Roshar are mostly the result of interspecies combination caused at a Deific level. We've seen part-human, part Dysian Aimian; part-human, part Siah Aimian; part human, part Parsh... what is hiding in plain sight is that the Parsh themselves are part human, part dragon. Hence their limited but impressive ability to shapeshift, and their Revisionist Smaug hoarding of gems.

I wouldn't say we have seen part Dysian people, part Lanceryn Dysian maybe but not the opposite

Quote

Axies the Collector is of Whimsy. His Collectoriness is his Whim... and he can change his appearance on a whim as well.

Axies is about as much of Whimsy as Shallan

Ok, that was not a very good counter argument

Quote

The planet-names of the Threnodite System are all about songs for the dead. They are unrelated to Ambition. They're a little related to Mercy. Maybe. But I wonder if the original Shard of that system was something like Mourning, or Grief, or maybe even Celebration. I wonder if that shard is still in the Threnodite System - maybe Celebration plus the presence of a dead Shard equals Mourning. 

The issue with Celebration and Mourining is they don't fit well in modern Shard-Dawnshard theories, which require the two unknown Shard to be aspects of Survive

Quote

The Dawnshards are the building blocks of life. In the context of the world - of what an evolutionary biologist might call *evolutionary pressures* - they are Adaptation, Perseverence, Mating, and Multiplying. Devoid of their context, they are, at their most fundamental levels, CHANGE, SURVIVE, UNITE, and DIVIDE, respectively. At a more programmer level (Cosmere's Game Of Life?) they are +CHANGE, -CHANGE, COMBINATION, and REPRODUCTION. (Or on an OS level, "Edit" "Save" "Merge" and "Duplicate"). 

1. If they are the building block of life, which Dawnshard takes care of creating Sentience/Sapience?

2. Everything that Divide can do, Change can do better

3. Any Shard-Dawnshard theory using Divide require Ruin not to be an aspect of Change, which is absurd Ruin is basically Irreversibility (to be exact it's Entropy)

Quote

As of the current moment - the end of RoW, and the end of Era 2 Book 3 - the Dawnshards are held by Rysn (CHANGE), Kelsier (SURVIVE), The Stormfather (UNITE) in trust for a worthy host (Sadeas voice: DAAALINARRRR), and ???? for Divide. The effects of this can be seen in Chiri-chiri's evolution; Kelsier's sheer inability to stop being alive; and Dalinar's desire to Unite Them... which so far expresses itself mostly in political terms, but is probably not orthogonal to the fact that, as has often been commented upon, suddenly and irrepressably, Dalinar f---s.

If a Dawnshard was in the SF Honour wouldn't have consider it lost

Quote

Vstim was training Rysn to be a Dawnshard. He made her fit to hold it well, and also developed her Connection to its evolutionary concept sufficient for her to claim it. He arranged for her to have a larkin, and a ship. This smacks of Cultivation’s work with Taravangian, but is rather less direct. Perhaps Vstim is an agent of Cult. Perhaps he visited the Nightwatcher and as a result has become her pawn unknowingly. Or perhaps the indirectness of his actions is based upon an oath of noninterference… because Vstim is Frost.

1. Vstim doesn't have sivler eyes (not a very strong argument, I know)

2. Vstim was surprised by the Dawnshard being real

3. Frost is non-interventionist

Quote

The reason that Kelsier and Hoid immediately wanted to punch each other - and Hoid was able to! - is because of their closeness to Dawnshards. We know that Kelsier is Mr. SURVIVE. Hoid might have also held SURVIVE, and perhaps the Dawnshards are like storming magnets, whereby identical polarities repulse. Or Hoid might have held CHANGE, and as such they are naturally opposed. Personally I prefer the former logic, because... um... well...

If Kelsier is a Dawnshard he only became one after SH

Quote

RYSN/KELSIER. IS THE SHIP THAT I DID NOT KNOW I NEEDED BUT NOW I DO I DO I DOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Well that's my new anti-OTP

Quote

Larkin/lanceryn are guardians of Dawnshards because they prevent the Dawnshard-holder from gaining Investiture. They are like the tamper in the core of a nuclear bomb. (Someone get Kelsier a gang... that is entirely made up of Nicrobursts.)

I hope you meant of Leechers?

Quote

The forging of Nightblood took "ten thousand breaths" but I bet it also involved ten thousand hemalurgic spikings. This is related to the growing theme in the Archive of "is it okay to do evil to make a technology that will do more good?" - which is very Ishar and just SO DAMN TARAVANGIAN. As an aside, I bet the Conventicle of Seran was founded by one or more of the Five Scholars - at least Shashara - and its name is related to the name she used when she was on Scadrial.

One thousand actually, also Nihtblood is made of steel and H-steel become basically useless after the fourth spike

Quote

I am told that humans dream in black and white.

I can personnaly attest this information is crem

Quote

Aaand speaking of ethics: Odium's champion is going to be someone Dalinar cannot kill. Adolin? Kaladin? The ghost of Evi? My money's on Gavinor. BECAUSE BIBLE. BECAUSE SUCH BIBLE. 

1. The rule of the duel means Gavinor can't be Odium' champion

2. What's biblical about a guy killing he's nephew?

My money is on Gavilar, as we know he thought he'd survive getting killed and Dalinar fighting Gavilar would break his old oath of never hurting him.

Quote

Honor, in turn, was the anti-Yoda, and thought that wars DO make one great

That'd be Valour not Honour

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14 hours ago, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Roshar is Yolen.

Frost is on Yolen, and he had to be sent a letter from Hoi(who was on Roshar) Via interplanetary mail.

14 hours ago, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Also the binding of Ba-ado-Mishram is the source of the taint on saidin. 

I'm guessing that this is a joke.

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On 7/17/2021 at 7:49 AM, mathiau said:

The rule of the duel means Gavinor can't be Odium' champion

 

I disagree on this point, a child can be willing 

just as he can be willing to eat a slice of pizza

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1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I disagree on this point, a child can be willing 

just as he can be willing to eat a slice of pizza

They can't but if the eight last months have proven anything it's that this debate is even more fruitless than the one on whether Renarin has the Surge of Progression or its Void

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Just now, mathiau said:

They can't but if the eight last months have proven anything it's that this debate is even more fruitless than the one on whether Renarin has the Surge of Progression or its Void

Yes it is

Spoiler

So stop offhandedly mentioning it as fact<_<

 

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20 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes it is

  Reveal hidden contents

So stop offhandedly mentioning it as fact<_<

 

It is a fact.

The debate is pointless, but it is a fact.

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Just now, Frustration said:

It is a fact.

The debate is pointless, but it is a fact.

Frustration -I won’t listen to your side and I have no proof to mine…but I’m right

<_<

We had a debate about this and you brought nothing substantial, maybe it was with someone else I don’t remember, but the facts are that willing is such a loose term that anyone that has the least bit of intelligence (or a better term would be סכל) which a six year old child by almost definition has just reached can be willing

But I’ll try to stop derailing all threads that touch on the CCT

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7 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Frustration -I won’t listen to your side and I have no proof to mine…but I’m right

<_<

We had a debate about this and you brought nothing substantial, maybe it was with someone else I don’t remember, but the facts are that willing is such a loose term that anyone that has the least bit of intelligence (or a better term would be סכל) which a six year old child by almost definition has just reached can be willing

But I’ll try to stop derailing all threads that touch on the CCT

1. As long as replacing "participating to the duel" by "having sex" in your argument doesn't create an obvious fallacy you have not given any argument

2. Wiktionary says סכל means "acting like a fool"

3. I had purposely not risen the first point in my first answer in order to let the conversation die, can you and @Frustration not pick it up again this time?

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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Wiktionary says סכל means "acting like a fool"

 

Never trust a wikitionary cuz that ain’t what it means 

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55 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Unless I'm doing something wrong google traduction seems to agree https://translate.google.com/?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&text=סכל&op=translate

Am I doing something wrong?

Yes

could be pronunciation or could be something else but סכל roughly translates to “one who has the campacity to use intelligence and does” (or smart person but that doesn’t work either) that’s a very rough translation 

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

1. As long as replacing "participating to the duel" by "having sex" in your argument doesn't create an obvious fallacy you have not given any argument

I feel like assuming the god of hatred and don't-think-about-it and its Vessel that is known for taking an extreme utilitarian philosophy follow age of consent laws in modern Earth countries for every deal they make isn't really a particularly strong argument

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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On 17.7.2021 at 3:48 AM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Roshar is Yolen. The original planet, home of Adonalsium, is hidden in the Physical by crem (much like Akinah).

Mraize's trophy room had faynlife. I am afraid Yolen has to exist at least a few decades until after the end of the Final Empire. And Roshar does not have enough gravity.

On 17.7.2021 at 3:48 AM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

The Dysian Aimians are of Invention. They reinvent themselves to fit whatever planet they are on - and they move from world to world via Invention’s space ship. Which I presume is called the Aluminum Falcon.

By the same logic they could be from Cultivation.

On 17.7.2021 at 3:48 AM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Shallan’s mother was the Herald Chanarach. When Shallan manifested surgebinding, her mother tried to kill her. Shallan killed her in self-defence - but in doing so, she started the False Desolation. I also wonder whether Shallan killed her mother, not with Pattern, and not with Testament, but with something else - either a permadeath weapon, like the knife that killed Jezerien, or a gem-on-a-stick weapon, that killed her mother's physical form but trapped her mother's spiritual aspect in the gem, which was then hidden in the box - either to remain trapped forever, or shattered and sent back to Damnation, starting the cycle of desolation BUT allowing for her immediate rebirth. (Poor Lin!)

Chanarach could not have been surprised with a Shardblade.

On 17.7.2021 at 3:48 AM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Jasnah is trying to get pregnant by Hoid.

That is the logical conclusion. She wants a Mistborn in the family.

On 17.7.2021 at 3:48 AM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

The Oathpact was a deal between Honor and Odium to fight FOR THE SAKE OF FIGHTING. Odium would send his forces after Honor, and thus be his Hateful self. Honor, in turn, was the anti-Yoda, and thought that wars DO make one great - and longed to provide his people with an endless war in which they could fight and die in glory. This is the truth which the Knights Radiant learned, leading to the Recreance. I would even guess that Koravellium betrayed Tan to Rayse in desperate hope to end their mutual madness (shard-savantism + toxic masculinity = you're gonna have a bad time). El wishes to continue this fight, probably by going after the forces of Valor in big bad Infinity War II Interplanetary Boogaloo. The real test will be whether Odium can truly be transformed into Passion as once he was, causing El to rip off his armor and return to his carapace... a very heavy-metal version of swords-into-plowshares.

There must be some truth to this. Honor expected the Heralds to return and fight. Why else give them superpowers? But Cultivation is in on the scheme. Breeding supersoldiers must look brilliant to her Intent.

 

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11 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes

could be pronunciation or could be something else but סכל roughly translates to “one who has the campacity to use intelligence and does” (or smart person but that doesn’t work either) that’s a very rough translation 

The link I gave show the pronunciation I used (well, the pronunciation google used for me=

8 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I feel like assuming the god of hatred and don't-think-about-it and its Vessel that is known for taking an extreme utilitarian philosophy follow age of consent laws in modern Earth countries for every deal they make isn't really a particularly strong argument

I'm not saying he has to follow modern day age of consent laws (which by the way is a very poorly define thing). Also Tarv is not exactly the only guy setting the rules.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

By the same logic they could be from Cultivation.

Yes but we know they're not since they're otherworlders

Quote

Chanarach could not have been surprised with a Shardblade.

Why not? We don't know what her madness does but from what happened to the others it's most likely something that would undermine her role as the guard.

Also it's probably better to speak of this theory in this thread

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That is the logical conclusion. She wants a Mistborn in the family.

I'm just now realizing an offspring of Hoid and Jasnah could be old enough to have a role in the back 5, this is somehow as much terrifying as Lift being adult in SA6

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1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Also Tarv is not exactly the only guy setting the rules.

I definitely feel like his perception is the main relevant bit here. For example, we know (from JordanCon) that Hoid can eat meat as long as he believes it's lab-grown or magically-made, whether that's truly the case or not. And we know Radiant Ideals can bend pretty far based on the Knight and spren, though because of how spren are there's a limit. I think he's got quite a bit of wiggle room and the only other entity relevant is likely to be the Shard of Odium, which I don't see having much of an opinion on this.

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On 7/20/2021 at 3:47 AM, Oltux72 said:

Mraize's trophy room had faynlife.

I believe this was a piece of white wood, confirmed to be from Yolen. This could have been a recent cutting from a distant planet. It could also be a really old cutting that is just well preserved - ye unto petrified wood. It could also come from a currently-alive plant that is the descendant of those old plants, White Tree Of Gondor style. Or one of those original trees could still be alive, Avendasora style. (Or... magic stuffs!)

On 7/17/2021 at 7:49 AM, mathiau said:

Have you read the Traveler?, it's set on Era1 Yolen and as you can see is very much not on Roshar

We have not yet seen Shinovar, known as the being the most Yolen-esque nation on Roshar. This scene could well be set there. Conversely it could be set in a little corner of Roshar that Frost keeps in the old style - a combination private garden, living museum, memento mori. I rather favor this explanation. And... a part of me wonders if that scene occured in the Cognitive - if Frost literally dwells in the memory of what has gone away.

On 7/20/2021 at 3:47 AM, Oltux72 said:

Roshar does not have enough gravity.

After the end of Era 1, I am distrustful of the constancy of "constants." 

On 7/17/2021 at 7:49 AM, mathiau said:

2. Everything that Divide can do, Change can do better

Change is taking one thing and making it a different thing. Divide is taking one thing and making it two of the same things. It is the difference between sexual reproduction and asexual reproduction - a fundamental distinction among all life.

On 7/20/2021 at 3:47 AM, Oltux72 said:

Chanarach could not have been surprised with a Shardblade.

Ooo, why not? Feel like this is some herald lore that I don't know!

Although: If I remember my WOBs, a cognitive shadow can only have children under ery specific circumstances. I wonder if Chana reduced, or even abandoned, some of her powers, in order to have children - "becoming mortal" or something quite close thereto.

On 7/20/2021 at 3:47 AM, Oltux72 said:

She wants a Mistborn in the family.

The virgin Amaram versus the chad Guy Who Is Connected To Every Magic System.

...no, seriously, great catch. Wonder if she'll also arrange to give birth in Arelon? I hear Selish citizenship can really open Dors for a kid.

On 7/17/2021 at 7:49 AM, mathiau said:

If Kelsier is a Dawnshard he only became one after SH

Agree. Picked this up from Shardcast (and like SHOUTED OUT LOUD, those guys RULE) - the location where the Bands of Mourning were found looked eerily reminiscent of the location where Rysn found her Dawnshard. Maybe he had to drop the Bands in order to become a Dawnshard for <some magical reason>. But what I think is, maybe Kelsier wanted to protect his status as a Dawnshard so much that he was willing to sacrifice the Bands in one gigantic act of misdirection.

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2 hours ago, silver-the-thruhiker said:

We have not yet seen Shinovar, known as the being the most Yolen-esque nation on Roshar. This scene could well be set there. Conversely it could be set in a little corner of Roshar that Frost keeps in the old style - a combination private garden, living museum, memento mori. I rather favor this explanation. And... a part of me wonders if that scene occured in the Cognitive - if Frost literally dwells in the memory of what has gone away.

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Pagerunner

In The Traveler, which you read here [at a prior JordanCon], Hoid was on Yolen. He has only worldhopped with perpendicularities. Does Yolen have a perpendicularity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yolen has something very similar.

Pagerunner

Okay, is it associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

You would call it a perpendicularity, but there is not a Shard in residence on Yolen.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)
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Change is taking one thing and making it a different thing.

That's Remake, only a part of Change

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Divide is taking one thing and making it two of the same things.

That's Duplicate, not Divide

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The virgin Amaram versus the chad Guy Who Is Connected To Every Magic System....no, seriously, great catch. Wonder if she'll also arrange to give birth in Arelon? I hear Selish citizenship can really open Dors for a kid.

I think Dor Connection works by right of blood and not right of soil (contrary to breaths)

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Agree. Picked this up from Shardcast (and like SHOUTED OUT LOUD, those guys RULE) - the location where the Bands of Mourning were found looked eerily reminiscent of the location where Rysn found her Dawnshard. Maybe he had to drop the Bands in order to become a Dawnshard for <some magical reason>. But what I think is, maybe Kelsier wanted to protect his status as a Dawnshard so much that he was willing to sacrifice the Bands in one gigantic act of misdirection.

It's also possible it was at the place toward which Leras was pointing (on the exact opposite direction from Elendel) but at this point I'm betting on the 0th metal being there and not Preservation's Dawnshard

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Posted (edited)

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Shallan’s mother was the Herald Chanarach. When Shallan manifested surgebinding, her mother tried to kill her. Shallan killed her in self-defence - but in doing so, she started the False Desolation. I also wonder whether Shallan killed her mother, not with Pattern, and not with Testament, but with something else - either a permadeath weapon, like the knife that killed Jezerien, or a gem-on-a-stick weapon, that killed her mother's physical form but trapped her mother's spiritual aspect in the gem, which was then hidden in the box - either to remain trapped forever, or shattered and sent back to Damnation, starting the cycle of desolation BUT allowing for her immediate rebirth. (Poor Lin!)

PREACH

Shallan's account of her mother's death and the events that happen shortly after to me are clearly meant to be suspicious to us now. Many people on the forums seem to think "well Shallan is crazy, so of course she hallucinated a glowing light and also hallucinated bright light coming from within the safe. Shallan just made up the fact that her father put her mother's soul in a box". But really? Does Shallan hallucinate, because to me she forgets or stitches false memories together; hallucinating light is not at all in keeping with her mental issues and is more in keeping with events like Dalinar seeing light when Jasnah reads the Way of Kings (and events of that nature). Heck, the theme of these books is "glowing magic light", so why dismiss this account of Shallan when it is in keeping with so many other weird light events? 

With the reveal about Testament, it blows my mind that more people didn't look at the Glowing Soul of Light thing and not consider there may be some truth to what Shallan remembers. Shallan believes that:

1) Shallan is attacked because her mother is disgusted by Surgebinders
2) Shallan summons a blade to kill her mother in self defence. 
3) Shallan's father picks up something glowing and locks it in a safe.
4) Shallan believes her mother's soul is trapped in a safe.
5) Shallan goes to the garden to yell at Testament and unbond the spren.
6) Shallan continues to see light radiating from the safe for the rest of her time in the Davar household. 
7) Shallan retains some knowledge that she could summon Testament again (as she seems to know this is tWoK before meeting Pattern)
?) So why does Shallan believe anything is trapped in the safe if Shallan knew Testament would be in the garden to talk with her AND that Shallan knew on some level that she could summon Testament at any time (as she proves in tWoK and WoR)? What is there in the safe to consider locked-away? And why hallucinate light? Shallan may be loads of unstable, but she has never hallucinated before - she instead represses or stitches together narratives. If anything, she has some kind of magical connection-sight as shown by her ability to draw Yalb's actual survival on a beach. There is no reason to believe that Shallan made up the light besides a bias we have against her. 

When Shallan goes to the garden to unbond Testament, she is not crazy or repressing any of these events yet, so her understanding that Testament was not equal to the thing in the safe seems pretty clear and concrete to me. So to me it seems clear that something else was put in the safe and modern-Shallan has repressed memories and is conflating whatever was put in the safe with Testament (which she further conflates with Pattern). Could this be a Herald's soul? Could Shallan's father have known about Chanarach? Could the safe have been something other that just a run of the mill safe? With Seon in the mix, is there some other tech abound? It is just so odd. 

Add on the fact that Cryptics were drawn to child-Shallan for no currently apparent reason (so much so even that a dead spren didn't deter them and they tried a second time years later), that there are Seons involved somehow, the influence of an unmade is around the family, secret societies are abound and persistent (to the point where Maraize even says he should have known a Davar was a radiant despite Heleran not being one), and Shallan's parents fighting about Shallan's future all before these events, there is something very very special going on and non-standard about Shallan's family and the death of Shallan's mother in particular. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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