Technological oddities of Scadrial

[+Oltux72]

I thought I'd list a few technological oddities and how they are visible in the books. Then maybe we can discuss a common denominator

1. Guns. Scadrian gun technology is a curious thing. And it seems to be in extreme flux, leading to extremely anachronistic solutions..

In Alloy of Law Wax takes a captured gun and its ammo apart. The propellant is definitely black powder. Yet they use cartridges. That was a transition technology on Earth. Tech level around 1870. Yet Shadows of Self mentions a submachine gun.

2. No refrigeration

Shadow of Self clearly states that they get their ice from the mountains. On Earth refrigeration was invented around 1850 and became economical around 1875

3. Cars like around 1920

They look reliable and mass produced. That is post-WW1 technology. They definitely have gasoline engines. Waxillium wonders about using them in Bands of Mourning

4. No immunology

Bleeder tells us that the scientists of Scadrial don't know about the function of leukocytes. That is really odd. This is 1860ies knowledge.

5. Spectroscopy & Zeeman effect

Again Shadows of Self. That is fairly advanced physics. If you wish to understand it fully, you will need quentum mechanics.

6. Tarcsel's speaker's

It looks like he has invented an amplifier based on vacuum tubes. That is 1905 technology and was combined with loudspeakers in 1925.

 

On the whole it looks to be ahead of our world where electricity or materials help, but they are hopeless in organic chemistry or biology.

[DoctaDajman]

I'm not sure if this has any bearing on the reasoning but if a zinc ferring were in a field of science and that same ferring were applying mental speed to their specific field of study it could/would progress at a pretty quick rate.   It could be that there simply aren't enough zinc ferrings to ensure each field of study is getting the same amount of invested brainpower dumped into it.  

Not only could it be a lack of zinc ferrings but I dont believe that being able to store into zinc actually means that you think better... your brain doesn't magically know the sciences that you want it to when you tap.  It simply allows you to think faster on subjects you are already familure with.   That isn't to say you couldn't use it to learn faster... but a zinc ferring who spent their life studying / working on making a car wouldn't be able to suddenly tap zinc and have the ability to make massive leaps in biology.   

I guess there could also be a much simpler answer too... because Brandon likes the world with these aspects at this time.   

[ScadrianTank]

On 16.07.2021 at 9:05 PM, Oltux72 said:

No refrigeration

Shadow of Self clearly states that they get their ice from the mountains. On Earth refrigeration was invented around 1850 and became economical around 1875

Wasn't ice merchanting a thing until the early 1900s? I was under the impression that early refrigerators still used ice for cooling. And it's not like everyone can afford electricity - a lot of people would still use old tech because it's cheaper and familiar.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

Wasn't ice merchanting a thing until the early 1900s? I was under the impression that early refrigerators still used ice for cooling. And it's not like everyone can afford electricity - a lot of people would still use old tech because it's cheaper and familiar.

Sure. In most parts of the world sales and deliveries of ice in fact continued into the 1950ies. But that conflates two different things. That you do not have a device for refrigeration on the premise means that you will have to buy ice. But it does not mean that the ice you buy has to be gathered from glaciers or stored in winter. It can just as well be made in a factory. And that was how it was done from the last quarter of the 19th century onwards.

Yet the text clearly states that the ice comes from the mountains and is becoming affordable because transportation has been getting cheaper. And that puts a pretty incriminating light on Scadrian technology and science. In fact, we can no longer be sure that they have thermodynamics as a scientific concept.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Oltux72
typo

[Halyo_Alex]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

In fact, we can no longer be sure that they have thermodynamics as a scientific concept.

Some brass ferring somewhere is probably feeling mildly offended or is about to make a lot of money...

[+Bzhydack]

On 18.07.2021 at 10:55 AM, Oltux72 said:

In fact, we can no longer be sure that they have thermodynamics as a scientific concept.

You cannot have advanced steam engines without concept of thermodynamics.

[StanLemon]

This is actually an interesting thing, because science and technological development don't need to happen in the same order as they did here on Earth. To me it makes the world feel more real with its history. 

On 7/16/2021 at 0:05 PM, Oltux72 said:

On the whole it looks to be ahead of our world where electricity or materials help, but they are hopeless in organic chemistry or biology.

This could be due to the fact that the Basin is so bountiful and providing of their needs. The have less of a need or interest to learn more as things are for the most part provided for them, but in comparison, material science needs are something they have to provide for themselves and thus more reason to put in the effort and resources to develop it

[+Bzhydack]

On 16.07.2021 at 8:05 PM, Oltux72 said:

In Alloy of Law Wax takes a captured gun and its ammo apart. The propellant is definitely black powder. Yet they use cartridges. That was a transition technology on Earth. Tech level around 1870. Yet Shadows of Self mentions a submachine gun.

Can you give us quote about submachine gun? All what can shot in series we saw is rotary gun like Gattling, what is year 1862. This is still black powder era cartrige. Also first real-life machinegun, Maxim, was constructed in 1883, and smokeless powder was invented in 1884. Also, submachine gouns can mean early automatic pistols like Borchardt.

On 16.07.2021 at 8:05 PM, Oltux72 said:

On the whole it looks to be ahead of our world where electricity or materials help, but they are hopeless in organic chemistry or biology.

 

17 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This could be due to the fact that the Basin is so bountiful and providing of their needs. The have less of a need or interest to learn more as things are for the most part provided for them, but in comparison, material science needs are something they have to provide for themselves and thus more reason to put in the effort and resources to develop it

This can be also due to Scadrian Magic System. They are much more interested with metals, alloys, and other chemical stuff, becuase they have clear and widely-known benefit from this. And like ours chemists search for Philosophical Stone, they search for Allomantic Metals and this focused scientists. Like spectroscopy - first usage of this science was to idetify elements. And cannot be fully understand, to be used - Joseph Fraunhoffer made first spectrometer in 1814.

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Can you give us quote about submachine gun? All what can shot in series we saw is rotary gun like Gattling, what is year 1862. This is still black powder era cartrige. Also first real-life machinegun, Maxim, was constructed in 1883, and smokeless powder was invented in 1884. Also, submachine gouns can mean early automatic pistols like Borchardt.

Waxillium chasing the Marksman, Chapter 3 of Shadows of Self:

Quote

He found only a pool of blood soaking into the carpet and a discarded submachine gun. This room was some kind of clerk's office. Several men and women pressed againt the floor, trembling.

 

[Weltall]

One thing that might also help explain the relative lack of knowledge of biochemistry is that they probably have less pressure to research certain things due to the population being unnaturally healthy. Sazed basically waved a magic wand and made genetic defects go away for the northern Scadrians so there's going to be a lot fewer cases of people born with medical issues that would prompt people to start asking 'Hey, why is this happening and is there something we can do about it? Let's look into it!'.

We also know that the Words of Founding include a compilation of what Sazed had in his copperminds, which we know included medical knowledge. It's likely that the post-Catacendre civilization had knowledge that was 'good enough' that it took care of most of their needs so there wasn't as much need to go looking for more. This might be another of Sazed's ideas that didn't work out quite so well, like how he made the Elendel Basin so productive. We know he dropped hints about technology he wanted the Scadrians to develop (mainly electricity) but we don't know if he did the same for medical knowledge and it might be that he essentially gave them too much too soon and it stifled progress.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Weltall

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, Weltall said:

One thing that might also help explain the relative lack of knowledge of biochemistry is that they probably have less pressure to research certain things due to the population being unnaturally healthy. Sazed basically waved a magic wand and made genetic defects go away for the northern Scadrians so there's going to be a lot fewer cases of people born with medical issues that would prompt people to start asking 'Hey, why is this happening and is there something we can do about it? Let's look into it!'.

We also know that the Words of Founding include a compilation of what Sazed had in his copperminds, which we know included medical knowledge. It's likely that the post-Catacendre civilization had knowledge that was 'good enough' that it took care of most of their needs so there wasn't as much need to go looking for more. This might be another of Sazed's ideas that didn't work out quite so well, like how he made the Elendel Basin so productive. We know he dropped hints about technology he wanted the Scadrians to develop (mainly electricity) but we don't know if he did the same for medical knowledge and it might be that he essentially gave them too much too soon and it stifled progress.

Similarly, they live too close together to really develop extensive communications. Hence the lack of radio and phone technology, and the absence of an extensive telegraph system. 

[mathiau]

On 16/07/2021 at 8:05 PM, Oltux72 said:

I thought I'd list a few technological oddities and how they are visible in the books. Then maybe we can discuss a common denominator

1. Guns. Scadrian gun technology is a curious thing. And it seems to be in extreme flux, leading to extremely anachronistic solutions..

In Alloy of Law Wax takes a captured gun and its ammo apart. The propellant is definitely black powder. Yet they use cartridges. That was a transition technology on Earth. Tech level around 1870. Yet Shadows of Self mentions a submachine gun.

Also their bullets are very slow

Quote

5. Spectroscopy & Zeeman effect

Again Shadows of Self. That is fairly advanced physics. If you wish to understand it fully, you will need quentum mechanics.

Wait, what? When did they talk about that?

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

Also their bullets are very slow

Yes.

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

Wait, what? When did they talk about that?

During the party Wayne impersonates a scientist at

Shadow of Self, chapter 9

Quote

She soon found the page she wanted. "The Higgens effect. Has to do with the way a spectral field is influenced by magnets." She flipped a few pages.

Then

Quote

"The Higgens effect is old news!" Wayne said. "I'm much more interested in the way that a static electric field produces similar results.

And that is the Stark (No, not the one with the implanted power plant and the flying armor. Professor Stark was from Hamburg IIRC) effect. I had to look that effect up.

We call this a spectrogram and not a spectral field, but at its core it is a plot of intensity vs. frequency/wave length. Calling that a field is not unreasonable. You could even say that it shows yields at certain frequencies. And a magnetic field splitting up spectral lines is what the Zeeman effect experimentally speaking is. I am afraid finding another explanation for this exchange is extremely difficult. Somebody called Higgens or working for somebody called Higgens discovered the Zeeman effect within the last few years.

[mathiau]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

During the party Wayne impersonates a scientist at

Shadow of Self, chapter 9

Then

And that is the Stark (No, not the one with the implanted power plant and the flying armor. Professor Stark was from Hamburg IIRC) effect. I had to look that effect up.

We call this a spectrogram and not a spectral field, but at its core it is a plot of intensity vs. frequency/wave length. Calling that a field is not unreasonable. You could even say that it shows yields at certain frequencies. And a magnetic field splitting up spectral lines is what the Zeeman effect experimentally speaking is. I am afraid finding another explanation for this exchange is extremely difficult. Somebody called Higgens or working for somebody called Higgens discovered the Zeeman effect within the last few years.

In our world the Zeeman effect was discovered in 1896, Stark in 1913 and the Schroedinger equation (which allows to explain both of them) in 1925 so that's in the same timeline as most other discovery of Scadrial. Also both the Stark and the Zeeman effects could have been discovered earlier than they did.

[+Oltux72]

56 minutes ago, mathiau said:

In our world the Zeeman effect was discovered in 1896, Stark in 1913 and the Schroedinger equation (which allows to explain both of them) in 1925 so that's in the same timeline as most other discovery of Scadrial. Also both the Stark and the Zeeman effects could have been discovered earlier than they did.

Yes. There is considerable variation, but it can still be explained. I was looking for patterns.

BTW can we conclude from their helplessness when finding Kandra that they do not have X-ray machines?

[mathiau]

28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. There is considerable variation, but it can still be explained. I was looking for patterns.

Honestly aside from immunity theory and guns I'm not seeing considerable variation

Quote

BTW can we conclude from their helplessness when finding Kandra that they do not have X-ray machines?

While using X-ray machines to find Kandras would be impractical even with our tech level, I do think they would have been mentioned if they had these. Note that X-ray machines are a WW1 technology so it still fit with the "early 20th century tech plus random order variation" idea

[Frustration]

On 7/22/2021 at 8:07 AM, Oltux72 said:

BTW can we conclude from their helplessness when finding Kandra that they do not have X-ray machines?

How is an X-ray going to help?

For all intents and purposes they are Human.

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

How is an X-ray going to help?

For all intents and purposes they are Human.

They have two metalic nails in their bodies.

Also if they have metallic bones they'll look slightly different than normal bones on a X-ray

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

They have two metalic nails in their bodies.

Oh, yeah.

25 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Also if they have metallic bones they'll look slightly different than normal bones on a X-ray

Only if they are using a TrueBody, which they don't have to do.

 

Also forcing a shapeshifter to take an X-ray is easier said than done.

[mathiau]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Only if they are using a TrueBody, which they don't have to do.

I'm not sure what you mean, are you just pointing not every Kandra have metallic bones?

Quote

Also forcing a shapeshifter to take an X-ray is easier said than done.

Well if they shapeshift you know they are a kandra so it's as hard as to make a human take an X-ray, which is to say it's quite impractical but still would have been mentioned when MeLaan talked about how hard it was to tell a kandra from a human

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I'm not sure what you mean, are you just pointing not every Kandra have metallic bones?

Yes

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Well if they shapeshift you know they are a kandra so it's as hard as to make a human take an X-ray, which is to say it's quite impractical but still would have been mentioned when MeLaan talked about how hard it was to tell a kandra from a human

Fair enough

[Isilel]

Also, the northern Scadrian population is very small compared to that of industrial countries iRL in late 19th - early 20th century.  5 - 10 millions all told, IIRC. Therefore, they also have a rather limited  talent pool. It is entirely likely that there never had been a zinc Ferring scientist, because what are the odds that these 2 somewhat rare talents coexisted in a single person and that person actually had an opportunity to get education? 

Particularly since the they apparently went with the anglophone tradition of an expensive independent university, rather than cheap/free ones funded by the state like in other countries.

[Domo4448]

Spoiler

During the scene near the end of bands of mourning, When Wax and Sazed have their convo, Sazed mentions being worried about meddling  to much in  their tech advancement specifically sighting lack of radio as a mistake. I'd bet money these differing pace of advancements could be chalked up to that. Also it is a different society than earth, less people in a more concentrated area, the goals are definently not the same as real life.

 

[WandererNearby]

Let me just add something I haven't seen before. We know that every one in the cosmere is invested a little bit and I believe there are WOB's saying that this causes diseases to be less of a problem. Like, people have asked why worldhoppers haven't caused mass outbreaks of disease and Brandon said that this effect would hamper most diseases. This would explain why they haven't looked into as much. Less people getting seriously ill results in less pressure to cure them which results in them being behind in microbiology and immunity.

[i’m in the details]

Not very related to anything above, but the weirdness in what tech they have and what they don't could be attributed to slight influences from other shardworlds. For example we know that 

Spoiler

the Darkside of Taldain has had guns for thousands of years, and are presumably approaching Modern levels of tech if they aren't there already. Granted Autonomy has restricted travel on and off, but other shardworlds we havn't seen could have more advanced tech than Scadrial and that tech could be leaking onto the planet through one of the several worldhopping orgs.