Nice little bit of foreshadowing in OB

[+mdross81]

Working on an OB reread, I just came across this exchange between Evi and Dalinar in OB 71:

Quote

"I wasn't praying for myself, but for those of your countrymen."

"The rebels?"

"Men no different from you, who happened to be born in another city. What would you have done, had an army come to conquer your home?"

"I'd have fought," Dalinar said. "As they will. The better men will dominate."

"What gives you the right?"

"My sword." Dalinar shrugged. "If the Almighty wants us to rule, we'll win. If He doesn't, then we'll lose. I rather think He wants to see which of us is stronger."

This exchange already worked well as a bit of foreshadowing for the reveal in OB that the humans are the invaders on Roshar.

But rereading it after RoW, the highlighted line at the end called to mind something else. There was someone who was interested in pitting men against one another to see who was stronger. But it sure as crem wasn't the Almighty. This is from RoW 112:

Quote

Odium chuckled softly, rotating his scepter beneath his hand so the butt ground against he golden stone at their feet. "Do you know why I make men fight, Dalinar? Why I created the Thrill? Why I encourage the wars?"

"To destroy us."

"Why would I want to destroy you? I am your god, Dalinar." Odium shook his head, staring into the infinite golden distance. "I need soldiers. For the true battle that is coming, not for one people or one miserable windswept continent. A battle of the gods. A battle for everything.

"Roshar is a training ground. The time will come that I unleash you upon the others who are not nearly as well trained. Not nearly as hardened as I have made you."

I know that Rayse ultimately couldn't contend with the will of the Shard of Odium, but damn if this wasn't a sneaky-ass plan he had. He had all of the Alethi doing exactly what he wanted. Battling it out to see who was the strongest, the most brutal. Hardening themselves up. And all the while they thought they were serving Honor. And Vorinism seemed to back that up. Odium's co-opting of that religion is really something to behold.

Also, didja catch Rayse's mention of "unleashing" his Rosharan soldiers on the forces of the other gods? That's a really nice callback to the "Blackthorn Unleashed" chapter.

[Windrunner2319]

You know as I read the exchange from Dalinar and Evi, I think you could also claim that it could also be foreshadowing for the battle of champions.

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I know that Rayse ultimately couldn't contend with the will of the Shard of Odium, but damn if this wasn't a sneaky-ass plan he had. He had all of the Alethi doing exactly what he wanted. Battling it out to see who was the strongest, the most brutal. Hardening themselves up. And all the while they thought they were serving Honor. And Vorinism seemed to back that up. Odium's co-opting of that religion is really something to behold.

I am afraid I have to point out that this suspiciously sounds like cultivating the Alethi.

And I will allow myself a question. Why are people always coming back to the dead loser instead of the livig winner, who got her revenge, concerning the history of Roshar?

[Inquisitor #5]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And I will allow myself a question. Why are people always coming back to the dead loser instead of the livig winner, who got her revenge, concerning the history of Roshar?

Could it be because this 1) aligns with Rayse's stated goal, 2) is not a known goal of Koravari (not that there are a lot of those)?

Maybe?

Also, pointing out that it sounds like cultivating is a bit reductionistic to me, Cultivation doesn't hold a monopoly on cultivating things, that's like saying that only Invention is ever allowed to have new ideas.

 

¤_¤

[+mdross81]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I have to point out that this suspiciously sounds like cultivating the Alethi.

And I will allow myself a question. Why are people always coming back to the dead loser instead of the livig winner, who got her revenge, concerning the history of Roshar?

Interesting point. Who knows, we could find out that this is Cultivation playing twelve-dimensional chess, co-opting Odium’s co-opting.

Kind of a side tangent from another thread I was reading, but do we believe Rayse when he says that he created the Thrill to prepare battle-hardened soldiers for a future Cosmere war?

If so, do we think that other Unmade were also created for some broader purpose?

If not, then we need to think about their purpose in the Rosharan conflict.

There’s been a lot of theorizing about what the Unmade were before they were Unmade, but I feel like I haven’t seen as much discussion of how the Unmade were actually useful to Odium and his forces on Roshar. What was their purpose?

For some, I can see it. Re-Shephir and Yelig-nar have combat applications. Ashertmarn seems like a great way to destabilize a location and undermine leadership before attacking. Sja-anat created spies.

For others, like Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish, we just don’t know much at all. But take Moelach. What’s the usefulness there for Odium?

And then there’s BAM. We know that she provided Voidlight and forms of power on her own initiative during the False Desolation, but what did she do before that during the earlier Desolations?

[mathiau]

8 hours ago, mdross81 said:

Kind of a side tangent from another thread I was reading, but do we believe Rayse when he says that he created the Thrill to prepare battle-hardened soldiers for a future Cosmere war?

If so, do we think that other Unmade were also created for some broader purpose?

I mean, I don't even believe Rayse when he says he created the Unmade. It's more likely they were made my either Adonalsium or H&C and he corrupted them. Especially for BAM

[+mdross81]

14 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I mean, I don't even believe Rayse when he says he created the Unmade. It's more likely they were made my either Adonalsium or H&C and he corrupted them. Especially for BAM

That may very well be true. But when he says he "created" the Unmade, in this context I take him to mean he Unmade them, i.e. converted them to his Investiture and purpose. So, for what purpose did he Unmake each of them? What did he want them to do once he Unmade them?

Again, I think for Nergaoul, Re-Shephir, Yelig-nar, Sja-Anat, and Ashertmarn, I see how he might have envisioned using them.

Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish are question marks because we know next to nothing about what they even do. Maybe it's the same for BAM frankly because we only really know what she did during the False Desolation. We don't know what her role was during earlier Desolations.

For Moelach we see his effects but I just don't see how they're useful to Odium. Maybe just to freak people out or plant ideas in the populace?

Edited July 16, 2021 by mdross81

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

That may very well be true. But when he says he "created" the Unmade, in this context I take him to mean he Unmade them, i.e. converted them to his Investiture and purpose. So, for what purpose did he Unmake each of them? What did he want them to do once he Unmade them?

Firstly so that they stop helping Honour and Cultivation, the current Moelach is rather useless but the original may have been a very strong seer.

[+mdross81]

38 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Firstly so that they stop helping Honour and Cultivation, the current Moelach is rather useless but the original may have been a very strong seer.

That’s a solid reason if true. Good call.