Taln as Champion, but for whom?

[Maverick Mistborn]

I know there are lots of threads about who will be Odium's champion and apologies if this has been covered, i did a quick search and someone briefly mentioned Taln, as Odium could take away his pain.

I was struck towards the end of the RoW when they are fighting Ishar how impressed Dalinar is with his fighting skill "he is a duelist" Dalinar thought. "storms, and a good one" and the Storm Father told him "Among the Heralds, Ishar was average in skill" 

"He is average among them?" Dalinar asked. "Then ..... who was the best?"

"Taln," is the Storm Fathers response and he later states "there is no dispute"

So my theory is either ToDium learns this info and is will to remove his pain if he fights for him- pretty standard- or Kalidan helps him recover and Dalinar believing he has an unbeatable champion names him and leaves himself open to being Odium's champion. Then the belief he would be Odiums champion comes to be.

Either way it would be great to have the best duelist of all time in the fight

Thoughts???- please be kind. 

[Bejarden]

8 minutes ago, Maverick Mistborn said:

I know there are lots of threads about who will be Odium's champion and apologies if this has been covered, i did a quick search and someone briefly mentioned Taln, as Odium could take away his pain.

I was struck towards the end of the RoW when they are fighting Ishar how impressed Dalinar is with his fighting skill "he is a duelist" Dalinar thought. "storms, and a good one" and the Storm Father told him "Among the Heralds, Ishar was average in skill" 

"He is average among them?" Dalinar asked. "Then ..... who was the best?"

"Taln," is the Storm Fathers response and he later states "there is no dispute"

So my theory is either ToDium learns this info and is will to remove his pain if he fights for him- pretty standard- or Kalidan helps him recover and Dalinar believing he has an unbeatable champion names him and leaves himself open to being Odium's champion. Then the belief he would be Odiums champion comes to be.

Either way it would be great to have the best duelist of all time in the fight

Thoughts???- please be kind. 

The pain is not the only problem with Taln, he is also completely insane magically. And even if it would work why would he do it? He has expressed that he cares about humanity and I doubt he would fight against them to become a brainless drone

[Psykopathic]

If I had to guess one of the heralds I would probably point to Ishar. Taln is not sane enough and if he were to somehow have his mind cleansed I don't think he would ever give in anyways. He only broke once compared to how many times for the other heralds? He had the glimpses of sanity where it seemed like he wanted to help dalinar. But interactions with Nale among other things kind of single him out to me much more than Taln. 

[Use the Falchion]

6 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The pain is not the only problem with Taln, he is also completely insane magically. And even if it would work why would he do it? He has expressed that he cares about humanity and I doubt he would fight against them to become a brainless drone

Taln became sane again when Dalinar swore an Oath, not unlike Ishar and Navani. I can easily see Dalinar swearing an Ideal during the Contest (depending on the moral dilemma the Contest itself has in store for him - which is why Odium's Champion being someone that causes a moral dilemma to Dalinar matters), and having that bring enough sanity to Taln to do what needs to be done for the sake of Honor and humanity. 

[+Harrycrapper]

Interestingly, if the champion is a Herald and that child epigraph really does pertain to the contest of champions, then technically anyone who isn't a Herald or a Fused would be a child from the Herald's perspective. 

[Bejarden]

13 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Taln became sane again when Dalinar swore an Oath, not unlike Ishar and Navani. I can easily see Dalinar swearing an Ideal during the Contest (depending on the moral dilemma the Contest itself has in store for him - which is why Odium's Champion being someone that causes a moral dilemma to Dalinar matters), and having that bring enough sanity to Taln to do what needs to be done for the sake of Honor and humanity. 

Why would TOD let this happen? Why pick someone who wants to lose and won’t try to win over literally anyone else

3 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Interestingly, if the champion is a Herald and that child epigraph really does pertain to the contest of champions, then technically anyone who isn't a Herald or a Fused would be a child from the Herald's perspective. 

I don’t see Taln as a man that would be conflicted in killing for the greater good. If killing Dalinar meant saving Roshar he would do it in a heartbeat, at least that’s my read of him. And the DR connotates conflict

[Use the Falchion]

19 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Why would TOD let this happen? Why pick someone who wants to lose and won’t try to win over literally anyone else

Who said anything about who TOD picking someone who wants to lose? All I said is that Odium's Champion needs to be someone who can cause Dalinar a moral dilemma* (something that has historically pushed our Radiants to the next level due to them rising to the challenge in most cases) regardless of Odium's intent. 

The full theory, with underlined parts related to this thread: 

Gavinor is chosen as Odium's Chapion (see my below for links to my comments on the plausibility of this**)

Dalinar freezes because of the rules of the Contest dictate that he must kill Odium's Champion, but then says last few Bondsmith Oaths if necessary. 

Taln becomes sane. 

Dalinar switches the Connection between Gavinor, Taln, and himself so that Taln is now Honor's Champion, Dalinar is now Odium's Champion, and Gavinor is free.*** (Dalinar would also throw his Nahel Bond with the Stormfather to Kaladin in my theory, but that doesn't have to be a given). 

Taln kills Dalinar, winning the Contest for Honor. 

Everything goes sideways, since what Dalinar did wasn't strictly legal, but it didn't fully break any rules. (The Champions have to be willing. If Dalinar is willing to become Odium's Champion to make Odium lose, and has the power to switch the Connection to do so, then it's fair game. But then the question arises if that's keeping the Intent of the Contest, as the idea behind being willing is that both parties agree to the choice. Then again, there was a time that Odium was willing to make Dalinar his Champion...) 

 

 

*It won't be a physical fight, at least not entirely. Dalinar is a beast in combat, and one of Odium's most powerful warriors in Lezian has not only been defeated roughly three times, but is also dead. An Unmade can be used, as some members posited not too long ago, but they can also be captured and possibly killed with Anti-Investiture. (However, when the original theory came up, I noted how Odium may use the time between the capturing of the Unmade and its eventual destruction to plan his next steps.) 

Mr. T himself might step in the ring, but why risk himself that way for so little? No, the best way to win - or rather, to not lose - is to manipulate the Oaths and restrictions of the Knights Radiant, one in particular. 

 

 

**Here are two examples

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/95391-gavilar-theory-discuss/?page=2#comment-1239961

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/97936-the-real-child-champion-theory/#comment-1239247

 

***Of the Contest. I'm sure the willingness to become Odium's Champion will haunt Gavinor for years to come. Heck, I fully believe that if this does happen, Gavinor will be a major character in the second arc, and his journey will be learning to forgive others and forgive himself, with Moash (someone who did similar things for a similar reason at the beginning) being the object of forgiveness. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Bejarden]

7 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Who said anything about who TOD picking someone who wants to lose

Well that was the OP was going on and general assumption is always what the OP says

And what are you basing on that Odium can’t either manipulate Connections himself or stop Connection manipulation. Honor is the Shard of Oaths not Spirtual Connections 

 

[Use the Falchion]

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well that was the OP was going on and general assumption is always what the OP says

And what are you basing on that Odium can’t either manipulate Connections himself or stop Connection manipulation. Honor is the Shard of Oaths not Spirtual Connections 

 

Ah, gotcha. OP's final words are a reflection of both the title and the thoughts contained in the post, which are two separate things to me. I answered one in my reply to you (Taln as a champion but for whom), while you were talking about another (Taln as Odium's Champion). My bad. (Although I do think my points still stand.)

The Bondsmith Connection manipulation seemingly stems from Spiritual Adhesion, a Surge that Odium has no access to.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding#Adhesion

 

And we've seen that Odium needs a prior connection to someone (or willing hosts) in order to manipulate someone. Odium manipulated Kaladin through his connection to Moash IIRC, and used that to try and corrupt the Windrunner. Odium manipulated Dalinar through his connection (and addiction) to the Thrill. It feels similar to a certain villain from Mistborn Era 1. 

[LordFlea]

6 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

If I had to guess one of the heralds I would probably point to Ishar. Taln is not sane enough and if he were to somehow have his mind cleansed I don't think he would ever give in anyways. He only broke once compared to how many times for the other heralds? He had the glimpses of sanity where it seemed like he wanted to help dalinar. But interactions with Nale among other things kind of single him out to me much more than Taln. 

We dont know that he broke.

Theres a popular theory that another herald died and was sent to braize. They then broke releasing everything as well as Taln

[The Silverlight Scholar]

On 7/15/2021 at 8:08 PM, LordFlea said:

We dont know that he broke.

Theres a popular theory that another herald died and was sent to braize. They then broke releasing everything as well as Taln

There are also theories that Taln didn't really break and just saw that the Everstorm was allowing the fused and void spren to escape damnation and decided it would be best for him to go back to Roshar to fight them there.

I kind of like this theory because it feels like awfully convenient timing for Taln to break just as the Everstorm was summoned. 

But as for Taln as one of the champions, if he gets some amount of sanity back for at least the duration of the contest I think he would make a great contest if it simply turns out to be a duel, particularly if he had his blade. It would also show growth for Dalinar. I don't have the books in front of me so I can't give a proper quote, but Elhokar complained that Dalinar had a hard time letting go of power, and the Stormfather told Dalinar that his powers would be impotent if he sought to use them for mere combat. (I realize that Ishar kinda proved that combat Bondsmiths can be super dangerous but Dalinar is nowhere near that level of skill and I doubt he could even approach it in under ten days.)

[Unite Them]

On 7/15/2021 at 2:29 PM, Psykopathic said:

If I had to guess one of the heralds I would probably point to Ishar. Taln is not sane enough and if he were to somehow have his mind cleansed I don't think he would ever give in anyways. He only broke once compared to how many times for the other heralds? He had the glimpses of sanity where it seemed like he wanted to help dalinar. But interactions with Nale among other things kind of single him out to me much more than Taln. 

Taln never broke.  We don't know what happened but after the everstorm the oathpact was fully broken and he escaped/was released/who knows.  But he still hasn't broken.

 

Questioner

Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Unite Them