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Division as Odium's Truest Surge

130 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He did not say Fabrials were ten

He said Surgebinding was 10, Voidbinding was 10 and Fabrials+Surgebinding+Voidbinding was 30

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Brandon specifically says that Cultivation has a magic system beyond the Old Magic, not Cultivation+Odium

Didn't he also said at some point say Surgebinding was of Honour and then said it was both H and C?

Anyway form Scadrial we know all magic system don't necessarily appears at the same moment (it's even implied that if Preservation hadn't betrayed Ruin Allomancy would never had existed) so it's possible it just ended up that way for no reason

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Um, no, that's a real thing that can happen

If you forget that Honourblade healing don't work, maybe

14 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

But not immedietaly. He was able to run from the tower. And are you sure it was Spiritual Tension, and not Tower Suppresors or Anti-Voidlight Tone?

Then how about Ishar making people one with the ground?

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Yeah, probably. Dustbringers, on the other hand, dont strike me as Cultivation ones, but... They have this deal with controling themselves... Like controling growth...

I see them as the "great power comes with great responsibility" order so their Cultivation part is growing in their ability to handle great responsibilites

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But still, they not have use of Growth on little scale, when they can have whole tower working for them.

Yes, because the Sibling is using Growth for them

By the way, why is the Sibling able to use Cohesion and Progression?

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We know a Bondsmith may have done so.

We know there were people bonding with Sprens before there were Oaths and that made for weaker Surges, so I think it's more of a probably

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I don't count those, personally, as in those cases it's the bonded spren talking and not a being who is outside of the bond.

Acceptable

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Nah, it was rejected by "a femalen voice, so very far away—but thrumming with the pure rhythm of Roshar" (presumably the same as the "distant femalen voice" that accepts them).

Ok, first how did I make that mistake?

Second, what? Is it how honour did it with everyone when he was alive and since Cultivation care more about Singers than about Humans she only do it with them?

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Except the question was specifically about honorspren and cultivationspren, who would be the two it's not the case for in the scenario you propose.

Well, to 100% we go

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We haven't actually seen Division Fused, have we?

Technically no

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They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn...

—Collected on Palahishev 1172, 21 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a baker's apprentice.[
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I think she slicked him, but not sure if we know or not.

I don't think removing friction would help much here, depend on what the ground is made of honestly.

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Good point. Might still view Regrowth as a higher priority for the Edgedancers to be doing, though.

Probably

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Tbh, I still don't count that as a magic system, just a big spren doing big spren things and choosing/being told to do things in a specific manner, but that's an old argument.

I don't know, it's implied to have been bigger in the past

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A WoB that feels relevant to the broader conversation:

So defining a magic system is kinda complicated.

Well, we're screwed

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So here is my model of the magic systems

Surgebinding ~75% Honor ~25% Cultivation

Lifebinding ~75% Cultivation ~25% Honor

Voidbinding - Odium

Fabrials - All Three

That's too much magic system

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31 minutes ago, mathiau said:

He said Surgebinding was 10, Voidbinding was 10 and Fabrials+Surgebinding+Voidbinding was 30

Yeah, he's also said Lift uses Stormlight

32 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Anyway form Scadrial we know all magic system don't necessarily appears at the same moment (it's even implied that if Preservation hadn't betrayed Ruin Allomancy would never had existed) so it's possible it just ended up that way for no reason

Um, I recall nothing of the sort

33 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That's too much magic system

I count 4 there, way under ten.

If we add

Parshendi forms

Old Magic

Dawnshards

Fused

Regals

Unmade

We end up with 10, or we could even switch some of those around, it's all in how you count

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45 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Then how about Ishar making people one with the ground?

Technicaly in people's body nothing changes (from physical Point od view), just their Cognitive Aspect is affected. Btw, this is Adhesion, not Tension.

This also can work for Moash - if his Cognitive Aspect sees him as blind, he will be, even if technicaly his eyes and nerves are not damaged.

51 minutes ago, mathiau said:

By the way, why is the Sibling able to use Cohesion and Progression?

I think is because different parts of tower are different fabrials (with different metals/gems compositions) and he is able to delegate part of himself to run this fabrials (like semi-autonomous mini-splinters).

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Teleporting in Physical, walking through stone, altering their physical shape. None of these are possible for anyone else.

Our database is thin. We have no idea what a Knight Radiant can do after 30 years of training under a qualified trainer at the fifth oath.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Nah, it was rejected by "a femalen voice, so very far away—but thrumming with the pure rhythm of Roshar" (presumably the same as the "distant femalen voice" that accepts them).

Basing conclusion on what people hear in their heads is dangerous. How can we know that this is not what she considered a divine voice?

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

He did not say so, but we know that there's 3, 10, or 30 magic systems depending on how you count it, and that Surgebinding and Voidbinding are in some manner ten-based, which makes it seem pretty likely. (I agree it shouldn't be stated as fact however.)

You won't get it down to three even by the most conservative of counts

  • X-Binding
  • Regals and Forms
  • Aimians
  • Horneater temporary stuff
  • Purelake fish
  • Animals bonding spren
Edited by Oltux72
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30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Our database is thin. We have no idea what a Knight Radiant can do after 30 years of training under a qualified trainer at the fifth oath.

Unless it was a restriction Honor placed on the surges or found after Aherietam it's not a reasonable acomplishment

31 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You won't get it down to three even by the most conservative of counts

Well you can

Honor

Cultivation

Odium

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14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Basing conclusion on what people hear in their heads is dangerous. How can we know that this is not what she considered a divine voice?

I just meant that the voice that rejected the Ideal was presumably the same as the one that accepted it, as opposed to SF rejecting it like the person has said. I intentionally did not draw any other conclusions about the voice in my comment.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

By the way, why is the Sibling able to use Cohesion and Progression?

To be honest the Sibling just does a tooon of weird crap with fabrials that I think is just stuff a giant spren like them can do even without Surges.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

We know there were people bonding with Sprens before there were Oaths and that made for weaker Surges, so I think it's more of a probably

I still think it's plausible that the WoB refers to people working out and formalizing definitions for the Ideals (ie, people bonded to highspren looking at what things seem to grant them more power and working out the rules for what they term the Ideals of Radiance, Justice, Dedication, Crusade, and Law, which in my opinion are a bit more restricted than the actual requirements are and are more ways to push someone to meet those requirements than the other way around, based on the other orders we know), rather than referring to them being added, but yes, there is a decent argument for that. I would still not state it as fact, personally.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Technically no

Quote

They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn...

—Collected on Palahishev 1172, 21 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a baker's apprentice.[

Ah, I forgot about that, interesting. Could be, and would match with the Surge, but once more I don't think should be stated as absolute fact yet.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I don't think removing friction would help much here, depend on what the ground is made of honestly.

Isn't the point of Abrasion that it makes things slippery either way? :P

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I don't know, it's implied to have been bigger in the past

Would you mind pointing out where that is? I've seen other people say it too but can't recall what the evidence was. (I do actually have some thoughts on this myself, but they also mostly boil down to "spren can do spren things" lol.)

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

We end up with 10, or we could even switch some of those around, it's all in how you count

I feel like it's pretty clear from the WoB about how you could say that there's 30 abilities or there's 10 categories that he means Surges when he says 10 systems as a possible number.

53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:
  • Regals and Forms

I think this gets into what Brandon talks about sometimes with what does or doesn't count as a magic system. Is it an Invested Art, or simply a natural adaptation to an environment with readily available Splinters? (Well, "natural", because Ado does Ado things.)

54 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:
  • Aimians

a.) Which kind? b.) That feels like saying mistwraiths are a magic system, which while you can make an argument isn't usually what people mean by it.

55 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:
  • Horneater temporary stuff
  • Purelake fish
  • Animals bonding spren

I think it's very plausible these + singer forms are all essentially the same thing.

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Ohhh, let me come in to stir the pot. :D

I don't believe that there can be such a thing as Lives/Lifes and probably not Voids. My personal interpretation (which I find also makes things very simple) is that Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Khriss' theorised "Thirdbinding," Fabrials, the Forms of Power/Regals and the general fauna with a bit of magic are all expressions of the ten forces that rosharans label Surges.

Now, before anyone pounces on me, wielding Renarin like a club, I'm not contending that there's nothing different between Renarin's Illumination and, say, Shallan's Illumination, I just believe that they are both expressions of the Surge of Illumination.

I'm personally in the camp of "Renarin's powers sure seem to express in a Spiritual direction," as there's no reason to mention the Even More Perfect Adolin(TM) unless this is somehow relevant and, well, you've seen what his Illumination does.

I also think that this can be seen by implication on the so-called Voidbinding chart, the basic design is obviously borrowed from the Surgebinding/Radiant chart, including the basic design of the Surge glyphs, but they are rotated weirdly, almost like they represent a "twisted" version of something familiar, from the in-world artist's point of view.

Quote

Argent

I was talking with someone about the woman on The Way of Kings endsheet, and I wondered about her identity - could you reveal whether she is supposed to depict a someone/something specific, or is it just a somewhat generic image of a woman?

Brandon Sanderson

The woman on the border of the maps isn't meant to be anyone specific, I don't believe. I've never asked Isaac about it, actually.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Sept. 9, 2016)

And that is my entry into the "is the chart itself just art or is the border just art" falling square into camp border is art.

 

Now, an answer to the initial premise of the thread, I'd say that there's an argument to be made for Adhesion being Odium's truest Surge. It is after all the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum. What is a vacuum? An emptiness, a nothing, a Void you might say.

Do I personally believe this? No. But the argument can nontheless be made.

 

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Anyway form Scadrial we know all magic system don't necessarily appears at the same moment (it's even implied that if Preservation hadn't betrayed Ruin Allomancy would never had existed) so it's possible it just ended up that way for no reason

Um, source?

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Then how about Ishar making people one with the ground?

Spiritual Adhesion?

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Technically no

Quote

They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn...

—Collected on Palahishev 1172, 21 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a baker's apprentice.[

1. This could be a reference to the ashynite refugees using some poetic language.

2. I fail to see how setting yourself on fire is a beneficial power to have.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Basing conclusion on what people hear in their heads is dangerous. How can we know that this is not what she considered a divine voice?

By that same token Kaladin hearing Dalinar for his Fourth is unreliable from his point of view, people hearing voices accept their oaths is an established thing, why doubt it now?

49 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think it's very plausible these + singer forms are all essentially the same thing.

Seeing as they all fall under the category of "creature bonding spren," wholeheartedly agree.

 

¤_¤

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18 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

By that same token Kaladin hearing Dalinar for his Fourth is unreliable from his point of view, people hearing voices accept their oaths is an established thing, why doubt it now?

  1. The oaths are not fundamental to Surgebinding. They come from Ishar.
  2. You can use Surges without oaths. In fact, that is the original way.
  3. We know of other Arcane Arts, where the outcome is determined by the perception of the user. In fact when Venli uses her Regal power she stops hearing the foreign stuff.
18 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Seeing as they all fall under the category of "creature bonding spren," wholeheartedly agree.

 

¤_¤

They are throwing lightning or using Connection to speak languages.

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31 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The oaths are not fundamental to Surgebinding.

I never said they were, I just said that people hearing a voice accept their oaths is an established thing that I see no reason for us to doubt.

33 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

They come from Ishar.

Doubt. I'm not sure if I'm willing to accept that he personally had/has the power to do that. I'm willing to accept it being Ishar's idea implemented by Tanavast though.

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You can use Surges without oaths. In fact, that is the original way.

Yes, how is that relevant to people hearing their oaths being accepted?

36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

We know of other Arcane Arts, where the outcome is determined by the perception of the user.

Yes, and? Are you saying that Venli, with no known preconcieved notions of how the oaths work, on account of how her people have never before been picked to be Radiants, was expecting a divine voice to speak to her, thereby causing it to happen?

38 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

In fact when Venli uses her Regal power she stops hearing the foreign stuff.

I'm sorry, I can't figure out what you mean. Would you mind explaining?

39 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

They are throwing lightning or using Connection to speak languages.

Why can they do this? Because they've bonded the right kind of spren. I see no contradiction here.

The Unkalaki are apparently able to form temporary bonds that do things like increase their strength, the various shellbeasts, ryshadium and the Purelake fish form symbiotic relationships with spren and the singer forms are accessed by bonding spren.

I'd say the common thread here is physical being bonded to spren, so they go in the same category.

Mind, Forms of Power have two systems going on, first the physical being/spren relation, facilitating the actual form, and second, what I interpret as limited/specialised access to a Surge (Envoyform getting the highly specific language part of Connection, an expression of Adhesion, Stormform getting what I assume to be a limited form of Division, splitting bonds, ionisation, somewhere around there), facilitated by the nature of the form.

 

¤_¤

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3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Ohhh, let me come in to stir the pot. :D

I don't believe that there can be such a thing as Lives/Lifes and probably not Voids. My personal interpretation (which I find also makes things very simple) is that Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Khriss' theorised "Thirdbinding," Fabrials, the Forms of Power/Regals and the general fauna with a bit of magic are all expressions of the ten forces that rosharans label Surges.

Now, before anyone pounces on me, wielding Renarin like a club, I'm not contending that there's nothing different between Renarin's Illumination and, say, Shallan's Illumination, I just believe that they are both expressions of the Surge of Illumination.

I'm personally in the camp of "Renarin's powers sure seem to express in a Spiritual direction," as there's no reason to mention the Even More Perfect Adolin(TM) unless this is somehow relevant and, well, you've seen what his Illumination does.

I mean, that's just a different way of saying the same thing I'm saying.

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8 hours ago, Frustration said:

I mean, that's just a different way of saying the same thing I'm saying.

It is?

Then I must have misunderstood you.

My understanding was that you thought that Surgebinding manipulated Surges, Voidbinding manipulated "Voids," etc. and that these are wholly separate things, rather than different expressions of the same thing.

I might have gotten confused by terminology here, saying eg that Renarin has the Void of Illumination makes it sound like he's not got an expression of the Surge of Illumination but a wholly separate analogous ability.

 

¤_¤

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On 11/07/2021 at 8:57 PM, Bzhydack said:

Fused can not know everythig. I mean, Odium related beings Can do what Bondsmith can in some extend - Venli is good example, she can Connect with people like Dalinar can (and this is Spiritual Adhesion), Ba-Ado-Mishram also was able to do this, on much Karger scale even.

So this can Simply be the lie, and Odium can grant Adhesion, but don't want to, because Adhesion Fused will have possibility to Disconnect or Reconnect at will.

This makes sense more then anything. It could also be that it would give fused with Adheision the ability to make deals with shards the way bondsmiths could

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11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I never said they were, I just said that people hearing a voice accept their oaths is an established thing that I see no reason for us to doubt.

Yes, but you are giving meaning to which voice they hear and which exact words. That's a related but different concept.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Doubt. I'm not sure if I'm willing to accept that he personally had/has the power to do that. I'm willing to accept it being Ishar's idea implemented by Tanavast though.

Ishar forged the Oathpact. He can restrict a Shard, but not Spren?

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yes, how is that relevant to people hearing their oaths being accepted?

That means that what you hear needs to come from the method the oaths were implemented. It tells you nothing about Surgebinding.

In other words, those messages have meaning, but not for this topic.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yes, and? Are you saying that Venli, with no known preconcieved notions of how the oaths work, on account of how her people have never before been picked to be Radiants, was expecting a divine voice to speak to her, thereby causing it to happen?

  1. Venli most likely had more of an idea than almost all Rosharans. Neshua Kadal tells us that they knew Knights Radiant and what they do.
  2. Venli most likely has a general idea how a divine voice should sound. Again message and means are different.
11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm sorry, I can't figure out what you mean. Would you mind explaining?

We got a POV from Venli as she picked up a language. Her Arcane powers did not make her understand the foreign words, but she perceived them as native. In other words cognitve concepts are not coded in a specific language or voice.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Why can they do this? Because they've bonded the right kind of spren. I see no contradiction here.

Spren in bonds with Singers and animals or in fabrials show powers they do not exhibit on their own. In fact in the case of Radiants the spren explicitely cannot use the Surge. Sylphrena could not lash the Pursuer; Pattern cannot use Illumination. The only exception are that Windspren can use a bit of Adhesion.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The Unkalaki are apparently able to form temporary bonds that do things like increase their strength, the various shellbeasts, ryshadium and the Purelake fish form symbiotic relationships with spren and the singer forms are accessed by bonding spren.

The fish grant those powers after their death. And a gravity spren certainly transforms nothing else into a worker. These powers cannot be explained by spren powers.

 

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53 minutes ago, LordFlea said:

This makes sense more then anything. It could also be that it would give fused with Adheision the ability to make deals with shards the way bondsmiths could

Yeah, I personally have a theory that there's nothing stopping Odium from granting Adhesion (both because Envoyform clearly uses Connection and because if he's hacking an existing system, that is Surgebinding, it makes more sense to just take it wholecloth instead of making alterations to it) but that Rayse might have been afraid of the capabilities of someone with Adhesion.

Odium also seems to have a hard time reclaiming his Investiture once granted, yes, he threatens Turash with taking back that which gives him persistent life, but he seems unwilling or incapable of taking it from Leshwi, instead telling her that she'll be tortured and not reborn again, IIRC.

So someone with Bondsmith-y abilities might be able to do things with Odium's power that Odium can't easily undo.

 

50 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Ishar forged the Oathpact. He can restrict a Shard, but not Spren?

Did he? A Bondsmith did, yes, but was it Ishar?

Quote

Argent

In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that.

Argent

Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges....

Brandon Sanderson

That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it.

Argent

Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place?

Brandon Sanderson

So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order.

Argent

And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense?

Argent

I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

By this WoB, Bondsmithing can be used much like Lightweaving, as a generic term for a category of ability and the general gist of Honor seems to have a lot to do with Connection and binding things so some of the references to "a Bondsmith" might be about Tanavast, not Ishar.

I'm far more willing to believe that a functional god could make people immortal, tether their souls to a specific place, etc. than just a guy++ or at least that if Ishar did it he was being supercharged by Honor when he did it, à la late HoA Vin/Elend and Ruin/Marsh.

Also, the Oathpact is doing nothing to any Shard, it's the mechanism by which the Heralds locked away the Fused, separate from the trapping of Odium in the system.

And no, I don't find it believable that one dude could impose that kind of thing on ten entire categories of being, not without some serious help, like that of a local Shard who likes rules, or even two local Shards one that likes rules and one that likes personal growth.

Now, him being able to manipulate the Oathpact once it's in place I have no problem with and I'm fully willing to believe that I might have forgotten/missed actual confirmation that Ishar created the Oathpact, but I'd not take Ishar's word for it, because that man has said a lot of words that are in serious doubt because of being bleeding insane.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Venli most likely had more of an idea than almost all Rosharans. Neshua Kadal tells us that they knew Knights Radiant and what they do.

Oral histories thousands of years old, presumably featuring no information from actual Radiants. I find myself doubting how much truth about the Radiant experience they could have contained. Why would they have a detail related to the internal experience of Radiance?

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Venli most likely has a general idea how a divine voice should sound. Again message and means are different.

Why? We have no evidence of religious practice or even religiosity among the Listeners. The only religious references are to the Fused and Odium, neither of which seem to be revered, but rather avoided. Odium is also referenced as King of the gods, so by that token wouldn't Venli's preconcieved notion of a divine voice have been malen?

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

We got a POV from Venli as she picked up a language. Her Arcane powers did not make her understand the foreign words, but she perceived them as native.

Ah, thank you.

Is this not just Connection making her a native speaker, essentially? Same as Dalinar does, though without the (apparent) requirement of physical contact. She gains the ability not not just speak but also think in the target language. (Which isn't that hard to do, I'm currently thinking in English even though it's not my native tongue, though the Connection shenanigans presumably work even deeper and more instinctually than that.)

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Spren in bonds with Singers and animals or in fabrials show powers they do not exhibit on their own.

Yes, but can these still be mapped to the Surges?

Luckspren are clearly related to gravity in some way, being presumed to be the Platespren of Skybreakers (the Gravitation primary order) as well as being what allow Greatshells to, well, Greatshell without square-cubing themselves and at least around the Greatshells they can excert some influence, as we see with Rysn apparently being slowed as she falls.

This relationship also holds for windspren being the Windrunner Platespren and being known to stick things together.

The Singer forms are presumably a form of Progression built into their biology, presumably a specialised expression of Growth, with the spren not serving to give the Form its ability, but mostly as a key to guide the Growth, a bit like a specific metal gives nature to Preservation's power or a specific Aon affects the expression of the Dor. So, Growth in the manner of gravitationspren gives Workform.

Now, Forms of Power seem a bit weird here, but they might be using both the Singer biology system (to make the Form) and the more general creature bonding spren system (to access a Surge in some manner.)

I will freely admit that fabrials are harder to explain, but that might just be because we don't know enough yet.

In any case, attractors and repellers could concievably be an expression of Gravitation, if a darn weird and specific one.

Cojoined fabrials might work off expressions of Tension or Adhesion?

Painrials miiiight work off Illumination.

Oh, and Purelake fish might just have had something about them permanently altered from having spent their life bonded to a spren, just like I don't think it's a stretch that there might be spottable differences between an Aviar and a bird of the same species having not become an Aviar, post mortem.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Sylphrena could not lash the Pursuer; Pattern cannot use Illumination.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

These powers cannot be explained by spren powers.

And yet these powers can? If Radiant bonds can express power that the spren can cannot express themselves why is it a stretch to assume that other bonds might allow this too? 

 

¤_¤

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6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It is?

Then I must have misunderstood you.

My understanding was that you thought that Surgebinding manipulated Surges, Voidbinding manipulated "Voids," etc. and that these are wholly separate things, rather than different expressions of the same thing.

I might have gotten confused by terminology here, saying eg that Renarin has the Void of Illumination makes it sound like he's not got an expression of the Surge of Illumination but a wholly separate analogous ability.

 

¤_¤

We differentiate F-steel from A-steel, it's the same here, Void-illumination, Surge-Illumination, Life-Illumination

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3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yeah, I personally have a theory that there's nothing stopping Odium from granting Adhesion (both because Envoyform clearly uses Connection and because if he's hacking an existing system, that is Surgebinding, it makes more sense to just take it wholecloth instead of making alterations to it) but that Rayse might have been afraid of the capabilities of someone with Adhesion.

Odium also seems to have a hard time reclaiming his Investiture once granted, yes, he threatens Turash with taking back that which gives him persistent life, but he seems unwilling or incapable of taking it from Leshwi, instead telling her that she'll be tortured and not reborn again, IIRC.

So someone with Bondsmith-y abilities might be able to do things with Odium's power that Odium can't easily undo.

 

Did he? A Bondsmith did, yes, but was it Ishar?

By this WoB, Bondsmithing can be used much like Lightweaving, as a generic term for a category of ability and the general gist of Honor seems to have a lot to do with Connection and binding things so some of the references to "a Bondsmith" might be about Tanavast, not Ishar.

I'm far more willing to believe that a functional god could make people immortal, tether their souls to a specific place, etc. than just a guy++ or at least that if Ishar did it he was being supercharged by Honor when he did it, à la late HoA Vin/Elend and Ruin/Marsh.

Also, the Oathpact is doing nothing to any Shard, it's the mechanism by which the Heralds locked away the Fused, separate from the trapping of Odium in the system.

And no, I don't find it believable that one dude could impose that kind of thing on ten entire categories of being, not without some serious help, like that of a local Shard who likes rules, or even two local Shards one that likes rules and one that likes personal growth.

Adhesion: I agree Odium can grant Adhesion normally, I think all shards could grant them all 10 if they invested in Roshar. Unless part of the deal with Honor that keeps Odium trapped also blocks him from granting that Surge. I don't know why that would be a part of it though. This gets back to the magic number on Braize being 9 while the rest of the Roshar system has 10. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33/#e2745

Odium Investiture: I think all Shards have limited control of their investiture once it is out of the Spiritual realm. The more they invest in a particular place and time the less they have to use elsewhere at that time. In the long run it is infinite because it recycles back to the Spiritual realm, but the same piece of investiture can't be in two places at once in the Physical. The piece of investiture keeping Leshwi immortal can't also, at the same time, be used to make a new Thunderclast or whatever.  

He might not be able to reclaim a Fused, he tells Dalinar he can't keep the Fused on Braize anymore due to a part of the Everstorm being on Roshar when discussing the contest of champions. 

Bondsmith: Yeah, Tanavast could have done some of the things Syl rattled off. 

Oathpact: The Oathpact is an agreement between Honor and the Heralds, but I think it piggybacks on what Honor and Cultivation did to seal Odium on Braize. Why not trap them on a gas giant or a moon away from Odium? Why put them in direct communication with their god? I think the Barrier Storm around Braize was created when Odium was trapped on Braize (Honor is big into storms) and then Honor and the Heralds made a deal to lock the Fused on Braize in that same storm created as part of the trapping Odium by Honor & Cultivation.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/160/#e2898

Quote

"AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD" Stormfather in OB Ch. 38

Ishar Binding The Radiant Spren: What if Ishar had a Dawnshard? 

Quote

"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."

WoK Ch. 36 Epigraph

This is one of those Death Rattles that is warped because the dying person didn't fully understand what they were seeing, but I think this is actually someone ascending to the top of Urithiru to use a Dawnshard. "10 steps crafted for Heralds" Urithiru form the outside is stepped because it gets narrower as it goes up. Crafted for Heralds, it's the KR headquarters and they idolized the Heralds, naming a Herald as a Patron of each order. 

"Grand Temple Above" they worshipped Honor who rode the High Storms. The "grand temple" is the sky. We've seen the largest piece of Honor's remnants, the Stormfather, officiate a wedding on the roof of Urithiru. Weddings are often conducted in places of worship like a temple. 

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49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We differentiate F-steel from A-steel, it's the same here, Void-illumination, Surge-Illumination, Life-Illumination

Ah, I think your choice of terminology tripped me up. What you were saying sounded to me like claiming that the Dor is a different thing in AonDor and Dakhor, or that AonDor is powered by the Dor and Dakhor isn't.

If I'm understanding you you say Surge/Void/Life where I'd say Expression of Surge, or something like that; eg, Voidish expression for what Renarin does. Is this correct?

40 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Adhesion: I agree Odium can grant Adhesion normally, I think all shards could grant them all 10 if they invested in Roshar. Unless part of the deal with Honor that keeps Odium trapped also blocks him from granting that Surge.

Oh, I like that as a concept, though as you point out, it's an odd stipulation, especially considering that the Dawnsingers were apparently forbidden proper Surgebinding, per the Eila Stele.

Quote

They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges.

So it'd be odd if Honor and Cultivation only enforced a "no Bondsmithing" rule on Odium.

45 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Odium Investiture: I think all Shards have limited control of their investiture once it is out of the Spiritual realm. The more they invest in a particular place and time the less they have to use elsewhere at that time.

Interesting, I've never thought about it like that.

I still do find it odd that Rayse threatens to reclaim what keeps Turash around but doesn't actually do so when Leshwi leaves his side. Is Rayse just bluffing with no contingency?

Honestly, the Fused are built so badly for someone who wants them to be reliant on him. He should have gone the Endowment route, make them reliant on a periodic infusion of Investiture to keep them in line.

50 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

He might not be able to reclaim a Fused, he tells Dalinar he can't keep the Fused on Braize anymore due to a part of the Everstorm being on Roshar when discussing the contest of champions.

Isn't that specifically because he's made a tunnel (the Everstorm) allowing them access to Roshar regardless of his continuing action? Then again, why can't he reclaim that Investiture?

54 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Oathpact: The Oathpact is an agreement between Honor and the Heralds, but I think it piggybacks on what Honor and Cultivation did to seal Odium on Braize. Why not trap them on a gas giant or a moon away from Odium? Why put them in direct communication with their god?

Hmm, fair.

I could definitely see them reusing an existing mechanism that's already known to staple Investiture to a planet.

It's also possible that the Oathpact, being Bondsmith shenanigans, might work by strengthening an existing connection, think Kelsier in Secret History, he can't go too far out because of his Connection to Scadrial. What if by enhancing and/or warping the Connection the Fused have to Odium, the metaphorical leash is pulled short, catapulting their souls to Braize? At least as long as the Heralds maintain it.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think the Barrier Storm around Braize was created when Odium was trapped on Braize (Honor is big into storms) and then Honor and the Heralds made a deal to lock the Fused on Braize in that same storm created as part of the trapping Odium by Honor & Cultivation.

Hmm, I'm not sure if I believe this, though it does solve a Connection problem by letting the Fused exist within the Everstorm, which is a fraction of the Barrier Storm.

I like it.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Ishar Binding The Radiant Spren: What if Ishar had a Dawnshard? 

OK, yeah, I'll give that a strong maybe, I was not considering that, though I'd still put it in the "juiced up" category.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

This is one of those Death Rattles that is warped because the dying person didn't fully understand what they were seeing, but I think this is actually someone ascending to the top of Urithiru to use a Dawnshard.

I just want to point out (sorry, incoming nitpick) that this is not a Death Rattle, but a quote from the Poem of Ista, which rather throws off your interpretation, sorry.

 

¤_¤

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8 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I just want to point out (sorry, incoming nitpick) that this is not a Death Rattle, but a quote from the Poem of Ista, which rather throws off your interpretation, sorry.

 

¤_¤

Ah you're right! It is from Jasnah's notes. A poem from long ago, so it is still a warped retelling of a historical event that Jasnah thinks has some merit, despite her disdain for poetic forms of historical accounts. 

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

We differentiate F-steel from A-steel, it's the same here, Void-illumination, Surge-Illumination, Life-Illumination

Heh, case in point for my argument earlier about terminology :P

5 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Oathpact: The Oathpact is an agreement between Honor and the Heralds, but I think it piggybacks on what Honor and Cultivation did to seal Odium on Braize. Why not trap them on a gas giant or a moon away from Odium? Why put them in direct communication with their god? I think the Barrier Storm around Braize was created when Odium was trapped on Braize (Honor is big into storms) and then Honor and the Heralds made a deal to lock the Fused on Braize in that same storm created as part of the trapping Odium by Honor & Cultivation.

What I've usually thought (this is not confirmed, just my guess) is that because Odium was trapped on Braize, the Fused are naturally "centered" on Braize in a way since they're of his power, same as how spren would be tied to Roshar. So imprisoning them on Braize was kind of a matter of convenience more than specifically thinking Braize sounded like a great place for it. Means that they don't have to track down every individual Fused and Voidspren and work out how to move their Connection to a different place, they can just block off Braize so the Fused get trapped when they get yoinked back (my theory is that when they die each time they get tugged back to their source as kind of just a natural consequence of being beings of Investiture, as opposed to the Oathpact specifically sending them back, but once more this is conjecture). 

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Heh, case in point for my argument earlier about terminology :P

Wonderful use of Voidish illumination<_<

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Ah, I think your choice of terminology tripped me up. What you were saying sounded to me like claiming that the Dor is a different thing in AonDor and Dakhor, or that AonDor is powered by the Dor and Dakhor isn't.

If I'm understanding you you say Surge/Void/Life where I'd say Expression of Surge, or something like that; eg, Voidish expression for what Renarin does. Is this correct?

or the Feruchemical use of steel, yes.

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22 hours ago, Frustration said:

or the Feruchemical use of steel, yes.

Riight, except no-one's making the case that A-steel and F-steel are both expressions of the "force" of steel. I'm inclined to think that all rosharan manifestations of investiture are expressions of the Surges, similar to how all selish manifestations are expressions of the Dor (with the obvious difference of one side being principles and the other power source, but I felt that as an explanation this made sense.)

Mind, I don't think we'd disagree if we all said V-Illumination, even if we'd read it differently.

 

¤_¤

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7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Riight, except no-one's making the case that A-steel and F-steel are both expressions of the "force" of steel.

Feruchemical use of steel, Allomantic use of steel, Hemalurgic use of steel

Surge of Illumination, Void of Illumination, Life of Illumination.

I don't see a difference

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Mind, I don't think we'd disagree if we all said V-Illumination, even if we'd read it differently.

Works for me.

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4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Feruchemical use of steel, Allomantic use of steel, Hemalurgic use of steel

Surge of Illumination, Void of Illumination, Life of Illumination.

I don't see a difference

I, huh, really?

I have a hard time accepting that because the Metallic Arts have no visible commonalities, compare S-Illumination and V-Illumination, both have obvious effects related to light/waveforms, thus we'd expect A-steel, F-steel and H-steel to share some commonality, relating either to Pushing, speed or physical allomancy, for most of the metals there doesn't seem to be a common theme, no rhyme nor reason as to why this metal fills this function across magic systems.

We can make educated guesses about most of the powers of Voidbinding (Tension, Division <_<), because we can, based on Renarin, conclude that they will have effects in line with Surgebinding and how it expresses Surges. We wouldn't expect V-Tension to enable Soulcasting, as that is not in line with being an expression of Tension.

On the other hand, if you handed someone a feruchemy chart and gave them a thorough explanation of the Metallic Arts, leaving out which metals perform which function in the other two, then asked them to, based on this information, fill in the metals on the other charts, could they reliably conclude which metals actually do what? Seeing as there tends to, aside from tin, be very little relation between what the metals do in each system, I'd hazard a no.

Does that make sense?

 

¤_¤

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1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I, huh, really?

I have a hard time accepting that because the Metallic Arts have no visible commonalities, compare S-Illumination and V-Illumination, both have obvious effects related to light/waveforms, thus we'd expect A-steel, F-steel and H-steel to share some commonality, relating either to Pushing, speed or physical allomancy, for most of the metals there doesn't seem to be a common theme, no rhyme nor reason as to why this metal fills this function across magic systems.

We can make educated guesses about most of the powers of Voidbinding (Tension, Division <_<), because we can, based on Renarin, conclude that they will have effects in line with Surgebinding and how it expresses Surges. We wouldn't expect V-Tension to enable Soulcasting, as that is not in line with being an expression of Tension.

On the other hand, if you handed someone a feruchemy chart and gave them a thorough explanation of the Metallic Arts, leaving out which metals perform which function in the other two, then asked them to, based on this information, fill in the metals on the other charts, could they reliably conclude which metals actually do what? Seeing as there tends to, aside from tin, be very little relation between what the metals do in each system, I'd hazard a no.

Does that make sense?

 

¤_¤

Tin is senses in all arts, pewter is strength in two of them, 4 physical and 4 mental in two as well, Nicrocil is always related to Investiture, and Aluminum is an inigma for them all.

There are a lot of commonalities, and a lot of differences, just as I excpect we will see as SA plays out.

I see where you are looking, but I think you have the wrong angle.

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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Tin is senses in all arts, pewter is strength in two of them, 4 physical and 4 mental in two as well, Nicrocil is always related to Investiture, and Aluminum is an inigma for them all.

There are a lot of commonalities, and a lot of differences, just as I excpect we will see as SA plays out.

I see where you are looking, but I think you have the wrong angle.

You might be right.

I of course have a bias toward my own interpretation (and for instance for a long time held that what Renarin did couldn't be Voidbinding, as it was too similar to Surgebinding, unlike the metallic arts, which are very dissimilar, imo), but I see where you're coming from, I think.

It might simply be that SA has mostly given us similarities thus far, of course.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree for now, the Metallic Arts are, from my point of view, too dissimilar to be treated as the same kind of framework as the Surges, as the ways surges manifest seems more consistent than how the nature of the metal influences the magic.

Also, aluminium isn't an enigma in feruchemy, it, for some bizzare reason, has a valid interaction with the magic system that isn't just a magnified null.

 

¤_¤

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