Division as Odium's Truest Surge

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Radiants are of both Shards, so that categorization leaves out Honor.

Actuallly this assumes Surgebinding is of Honor

1. Radiants use Stormlight
2. There are hints at Cultivation having another system, but not Honor
3. Honorblades, Honor's exclusive creation give surgebnding
4. Windrunners were close to waking than Edgedancers or Truthwatchers.

And besides 99% Honor 1% Cultivation is still both

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Shards themselves have Futuresight. I am sure this is theologically awkward for the Ardents. But still, as Futuresight is forbidden, it must exist and is not a capability of the Knights Radiant.

Oh contrare

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Radiants use Stormlight

Which is definitely interesting, but as we see with Lift and Venli there's some weirdness in this regard and I'd like to learn more about it before saying if it points to anything or not. 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There are hints at Cultivation having another system, but not Honor

What are these hints?

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Honorblades, Honor's exclusive creation give surgebnding

As do Fused, Odium's exclusive creations, and the Nightwatcher, Cultivation's exclusive creation. 

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Windrunners were close to waking than Edgedancers or Truthwatchers.

This is definitely curious. Though, Lift was in a better state than Kal iirc, so it's kinda weird (but also Lift is weird in general). It's also worth noting Kal and Teft are both extremely close to the Fourth. 

[mathiau]

19 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Few moments later near Perpendicularity for example ;-)

Oh yeah, I had forgotten that

Quote

Because maching Surge-Void are in my theory closer related than different Surges. Also when you have normal Spren and Enlightened Spren or full Voidspren, they are rather similar amount of Investiture (Like cars with simmilar parameters) and compared to Godspren should have smaller capabilities (in terms of raw power, not usefullness) because Godspren is much more Investiture (like Train is bigger and has much larger capacity than car).

So if we compare Bondsmith to Stoneward, Stoneward still would have some Spiritual Tension, and Bondsmith also have Physical Tension (We know that), and even if they have the same Physical-Spiritual Ratio of Surge, Bondsmith Surges would be much stronger, because how stronger their Spren is (Again: Car and Train). And power in Physical Tension seems to be not very important, so even if Bondsmith have potentially much stronger Physical Tension, it simply would be no need to use this Surge whith large amounts of power.

Ah ok, it was in that framework

Quote

I found some nice WoB:

As you can see, this is not just Shallan's imgination. It is related to her powers.

...

Shai's power is to change the past and present of a object according to an imagined vision of Shai

Shallan's power is (in part) to change people in something else they could be

I don't see any contradictions

Quote

Yes - they affect only physical objects.

...

Rocks have a soul, that's why Shai can modify them

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this.

Before anyone says it, NO this is not an Enlightened Truthwatcher, Glys was the first enlightened truespren.

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Which is definitely interesting, but as we see with Lift and Venli there's some weirdness in this regard and I'd like to learn more about it before saying if it points to anything or not. 

I don't see how this is interesting, you could use the black mist to power Ferruchemy if you had the right Connection

Quote

What are these hints?

The fact that Khriss said it

Quote

This is definitely curious. Though, Lift was in a better state than Kal iirc, so it's kinda weird (but also Lift is weird in general). It's also worth noting Kal and Teft are both extremely close to the Fourth. 

Isn't that just because Lift is always in a better state than Kal?

Edited July 26, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

What are these hints?

"My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoterric than the Voidbindings." -Khriss

WoB's

Spoiler

PrinceDusty

At the Pixel Project event, you talked about a further extent of Cultivation's magic than just the boon and bane? Are there any people alive at the end of Oathbringer who are influenced by that magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Lift. Well, I guess that's a boon, isn't it? Yes, there are. But nobody on screen that has Cultivation magic, other than boons or curses from the Nightwatcher. Yes, there is such a thing, no, there's no one else on screen. But what Lift does is a hint.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

MiToRo94

Honor has Stormlight and Odium has Voidlight, is there a Cultivationlight? If so, can an Invested person use it as a third magic on Roshar or is a boon/curse the only magic of Cultivation/Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

There is more! I'll just say that, the rest is Read And Find Out. You are theorizing in an accurate direction.

Read For Pixels 2018 (Sept. 1, 2018)

 

21 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

As do Fused, Odium's exclusive creations, and the Nightwatcher, Cultivation's exclusive creation.

Fused have Corrupted Surgebinding, not natural, as can be seen by their red eyes and souls.

And on Nightwatcher all Bondsmiths behave differently, is it that much of a stretch to be a Lift having "Stormlight" actually being Lifelight, and Nightwatcher giving Lifebinding?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

57 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't see how this is interesting, you could use the black mist to power Ferruchemy if you had the right Connection

I don't find it interesting that it can fuel the Surges (even Voidlight can, if you can take it in), just that by default Radiants seemingly can only use Stormlight rather than Lifelight or Towerlight, and that Lift shows this can be changed even without messing with the spren themselves, pointing towards some weird external stuff potentially being relevant.

59 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Isn't that just because Lift is always in a better state than Kal?

Lol fair enough

I'll need to do a reread someday, but I thought I remembered Kaladin feeling effects from the suppressor, but Lift not at first (besides Abrasion being blocked). 

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

"My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoterric than the Voidbindings." -Khriss

Could be a Cultivation magic, could be a Cultivation-Odium magic if the theory that Voidbinding is actually Honor-Odium is true, etc. Afaik the only thing we know about it is Khriss doesn't think the Old Magic (which she describes as a cousin to Voidbinding) is part of it. 

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

WoB's

Could mean a magic system, could just mean Lifelight. We don't know.

(However, I did ask for hints, and those do qualify as potential hints, so fair enough.)

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Fused have Corrupted Surgebinding, not natural, as can be seen by their red eyes and souls.

I mean, the Honorblades aren't exactly "natural" either, they're artificial creations.

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And on Nightwatcher all Bondsmiths behave differently, is it that much of a stretch to be a Lift having "Stormlight" actually being Lifelight, and Nightwatcher giving Lifebinding?

You'd think at some point the old Radiants would've realized the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith had a different powerset if it was something more dramatic than just different expressions of the Surges (like for example the Stormfather Bondsmith vs Windrunners or Stonewards, all of which are still considered Surgebinding despite being wildly different).

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, the Honorblades aren't exactly "natural" either, they're artificial creations.

Well, you aren't wrong, but that's not the natural that I ment. How is "It's not default Surgebinding" then?

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

You'd think at some point the old Radiants would've realized the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith had a different powerset if it was something more dramatic than just different expressions of the Surges (like for example the Stormfather Bondsmith vs Windrunners or Stonewards, all of which are still considered Surgebinding despite being wildly different).

That is a fair point, my answer to this is that our information of the past is very limited, so maybe they did know, I realize this is a stretch however.

 

Something else to note, is that the first use of Surgebinding, Honorblade, Ishar's acts as far as we can tell identically to Dalinar's which I think is at least a small indication that the Stormfather's Bondsmith is the most 'pure' With the Sibling giving one Surge and one Life, and the Nightwatcher giving two Lifes.

 

However I will concede that Venli's Oaths being accepted by Cultivation/Nightwatcher as a counterpoint

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well, you aren't wrong, but that's not the natural that I ment. How is "It's not default Surgebinding" then?

Maybe.... on the other hand, Regals have red eyes too, so I'm hesitant to take it to mean the Surgebinding is "not default" as opposed to something else.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Something else to note, is that the first use of Surgebinding, Honorblade, Ishar's acts as far as we can tell identically to Dalinar's which I think is at least a small indication that the Stormfather's Bondsmith is the most 'pure'

The Stormfather is the only Radiant spren that is pure Honor, so it makes sense to me for the aspects of the Surges expressed to line up relatively closely with the Honorblade, or at least moreso than the other Bondsmith spren. Whether that's "purest" depends on how you're choosing to define "Surge".

Something worth noting is that Ash says that powers work differently for Radiants and the Heralds + Honorblades, but it's unclear what exactly this means (ie if it's just fabrial vs spren differences, if Honor just didn't "chain" the Heralds, if it's actually a subtle difference in powers due to spren being H&C and HBs being just H, etc). 

Quote

“And do you think Dalinar,” Jasnah asked, “as a Bondsmith, could repair or replicate it somehow? Sealing the enemy away?”

“Who knows?” Ash said. “It doesn’t work the same for you all as it did for us, when we had our swords. You’re limited, but sometimes you do things we couldn’t. At any rate, I never knew much about it.”

 

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

With the Sibling giving one Surge and one Life,

Does this mean the other Radiant spren all grant one Surge and one Life as well?

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

However I will concede that Venli's Oaths being accepted by Cultivation/Nightwatcher as a counterpoint

Honestly I didn't even think of that lol

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Something worth noting is that Ash says that powers work differently for Radiants and the Heralds + Honorblades, but it's unclear what exactly this means (ie if it's just fabrial vs spren differences, if Honor just didn't "chain" the Heralds, if it's actually a subtle difference in powers due to spren being H&C and HBs being just H, etc). 

This makes my theory instinct tingle so much

 

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Does this mean the other Radiant spren all grant one Surge and one Life as well?

I think this explains my thoughts better

If they use

Stormlight - Surges

Towerlight - 1 surge 1 life

LifeLight - Lifes

 

Not sure How Lift works into this, Lift is weird and we don't have as comprehensive a grasp on non-lift Progression and Abrasion as I would like, but if I had to say She would have one of each with Abrasion as a Surge

[LewsTherinTelescope]

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I think this explains my thoughts better

If they use

Stormlight - Surges

Towerlight - 1 surge 1 life

LifeLight - Lifes

 

Not sure How Lift works into this, Lift is weird and we don't have as comprehensive a grasp on non-lift Progression and Abrasion as I would like, but if I had to say She would have one of each with Abrasion as a Surge

I kind of get where you're coming from, but it just feels... trying to figure out exactly how to put it... it just feels intuitively off to me for so many spren of both Honor and Cultivation to all grant only Honor's interpretation of the concept, especially if some spren types lean more to C than H. Recently I've gravitated more towards the idea that it's more specifically the concept of the Surges filtered through the Intents of the spren, which would include Honor, Cultivation, and the spren type's own unique thing (such as truth or unity), though I'll admit I've been hesitant because I've for a long time been pretty firmly on the side the differences in powers aren't inherent to the orders and this idea heavily implies otherwise. But it's what makes the most sense to me on a kind of gut feeling level, for it to be filtered through the Intent of the being you're actually bonded to. 

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I kind of get where you're coming from, but it just feels... trying to figure out exactly how to put it... it just feels intuitively off to me for so many spren of both Honor and Cultivation to all grant only Honor's interpretation of the concept, especially if some spren types lean more to C than H. Recently I've gravitated more towards the idea that it's more specifically the concept of the Surges filtered through the Intents of the spren, which would include Honor, Cultivation, and the spren type's own unique thing (such as truth or unity), though I'll admit I've been hesitant because I've for a long time been pretty firmly on the side the differences in powers aren't inherent to the orders and this idea heavily implies otherwise. But it's what makes the most sense to me on a kind of gut feeling level, for it to be filtered through the Intent of the being you're actually bonded to. 

I think spren likely could give Lifebinding, they just don't know how, sort of like how they didn't know how to give surgebinding until the Honorblades were created

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't find it interesting that it can fuel the Surges (even Voidlight can, if you can take it in), just that by default Radiants seemingly can only use Stormlight rather than Lifelight or Towerlight, and that Lift shows this can be changed even without messing with the spren themselves, pointing towards some weird external stuff potentially being relevant.

As I said which light(s) you can use should depend on Connection to Shards (I don't think many ferruchemists who could have breathed the white mist could also have breath the black one in) so I blame Ishar

Quote

“Your abilities are what made the original Oathpact,” she said. “And they existed—and were named—long before the Knights Radiant were founded. A Bondsmith Connected the Heralds to Braize, made them immortal, and locked our enemies away. A Bondsmith bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world. A Bondsmith created—or at least discovered—the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better. You Connect things, Dalinar. Realms. Ideas. People.”

Or maybe Syl is talking about Nohadon?

Quote

Could be a Cultivation magic, could be a Cultivation-Odium magic if the theory that Voidbinding is actually Honor-Odium is true, etc. Afaik the only thing we know about it is Khriss doesn't think the Old Magic (which she describes as a cousin to Voidbinding) is part of it. 

We also know Fabrials are part of it (well, Rosharan Fabrials at least, Elantris and primer cubes obviouslt aren't part of this)

Quote

I mean, the Honorblades aren't exactly "natural" either, they're artificial creations.

Exactly as much as any truespren

47 minutes ago, Frustration said:

However I will concede that Venli's Oaths being accepted by Cultivation/Nightwatcher as a counterpoint

Don't forget Shallan's truth being accepted by "we have no idea whom"

35 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The Stormfather is the only Radiant spren that is pure Honor, so it makes sense to me for the aspects of the Surges expressed to line up relatively closely with the Honorblade, or at least moreso than the other Bondsmith spren. Whether that's "purest" depends on how you're choosing to define "Surge".

I don't think we have definite confirmation Honoursprens aren't pure Honour

Quote

Something worth noting is that Ash says that powers work differently for Radiants and the Heralds + Honorblades, but it's unclear what exactly this means (ie if it's just fabrial vs spren differences, if Honor just didn't "chain" the Heralds, if it's actually a subtle difference in powers due to spren being H&C and HBs being just H, etc).

Well first there has to be a mechanism preventing her from becoming a Savant

Quote

I think this explains my thoughts better

If they use

Stormlight - Surges

Towerlight - 1 surge 1 life

LifeLight - Lifes

That idea looks very weird when you put next to it the fact the three Mists can be equally used by ferruchemist

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not sure How Lift works into this, Lift is weird and we don't have as comprehensive a grasp on non-lift Progression and Abrasion as I would like, but if I had to say She would have one of each with Abrasion as a Surge

I'll say it again : she's the only one to have ever used Growth

7 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I kind of get where you're coming from, but it just feels... trying to figure out exactly how to put it... it just feels intuitively off to me for so many spren of both Honor and Cultivation to all grant only Honor's interpretation of the concept, especially if some spren types lean more to C than H. Recently I've gravitated more towards the idea that it's more specifically the concept of the Surges filtered through the Intents of the spren, which would include Honor, Cultivation, and the spren type's own unique thing (such as truth or unity), though I'll admit I've been hesitant because I've for a long time been pretty firmly on the side the differences in powers aren't inherent to the orders and this idea heavily implies otherwise. But it's what makes the most sense to me on a kind of gut feeling level, for it to be filtered through the Intent of the being you're actually bonded to. 

I don't know whether that can help but I'll give you this WoB

Quote

Questioner

If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon were to travel to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It would act very, very similarly, yes. But it would be like... it wouldn't necessarily do the exact same things. Like if you've got two radios tuned to a frequency, they won't necessarily pick up another radio frequency, or things like this. I don't know, that's a bad metaphor, I'd have to think of a better one. But it would be treated exactly the same way but it might not grant the same powers.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

[Frustration]

29 minutes ago, mathiau said:

We also know Fabrials are part of it (well, Rosharan Fabrials at least, Elantris and primer cubes obviouslt aren't part of this)

I'd put them as a system of all three

30 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That idea looks very weird when you put next to it the fact the three Mists can be equally used by ferruchemist

When did we learn this?

and besides that's a bit different, I think Honor definatly could Fuel Lifebinding, of Cultivation Surgebinding

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

As I said which light(s) you can use should depend on Connection to Shards (I don't think many ferruchemists who could have breathed the white mist could also have breath the black one in) so I blame Ishar

What does Ishar have to do with this? And why do people like Venli or Shallan use Stormlight when Venli has some pretty Culti vibes going on and Shallan's not exactly a very honor-focused person?

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

Exactly as much as any truespren

Eh... kinda. The truespren aren't wholly natural, but from what Brandon's said, they weren't completely unnatural either. I believe "cultivated" was the word he settled on.

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

Don't forget Shallan's truth being accepted by "we have no idea whom"

Obligatory reminder that we almost never actually see Ideals being accepted by an external being (ie, not the spren in the bond itself), even Kaladin has only had it happen for half of his Ideals (and only one was Stormfather, other was Dalinar). 

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't think we have definite confirmation Honoursprens aren't pure Honour

I mean, unless tanavastium and koravellium are the same metal...

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

I'll say it again : she's the only one to have ever used Growth

Progresssion Fused seem to as well, but considering we still don't really understand how Fused powers and Radiant powers relate, I don't know that that means much. Though I'd note that Wyndle, who doesn't seem to yet consider her different from any other Edgedancer in that major a way, tries to teach her Growth, so I highly doubt she's the only one who has it. The Radiants presumably just don't view it as terrribly useful when Soulcasters exist, I'd guess. 

Edit: and when she performs Growth, he tells her "well done, we’ll make an Edgedancer out of you yet", which certainly implies it to be an Edgedancer power. 

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

and besides that's a bit different, I think Honor definatly could Fuel Lifebinding, of Cultivation Surgebinding

Agreed, considering even Voidlight can fuel Surgebinding despite not being part of the Radiant spren at all. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+Bzhydack]

14 hours ago, mathiau said:

Rocks have a soul, that's why Shai can modify them

Of course, all things have soul. You seem to not understand what I want to tell.

Surge works in all 3 Realms. But there is different effect if Surge is used to change physical object (Made him fall in wrong dirrection, change into other matter etc), the "basic" usage of surge, and is different effect if you use Surge in some process, on more esoteric atribute, but without change of physical appereance of object (like make people change, connect them mentally, gravitatet  to himself, even Connesting Realms, etc). This is what I understand as Physical or Spiritual Usage of Surges (Maybe indeed Aspect is wrong term)

 

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

and besides that's a bit different, I think Honor definatly could Fuel Lifebinding, of Cultivation Surgebinding

4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Agreed, considering even Voidlight can fuel Surgebinding despite not being part of the Radiant spren at all. 

I think it is fuel, and is interchangable if Connection is right, and is not influencing type of Magic. We simply to differentiae those thinks.

BTW, Moash is running on Stormlight, right? So how he isnt surpressed by changed Tower Fabrials? Is he running on Voidlight inside? Or he has so strong Connection to Odium so he is immune to effect (Like he is equivalent of 4th or even 5th Oath?)

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Fused have Corrupted Surgebinding, not natural, as can be seen by their red eyes and souls.

Fused seems to have totaly normal Surgebinding. I think Red in their eyes is becuase they are Corrupting Sparks of Life of Singers, rewriting it, to take over bodies.

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

I think this explains my thoughts better

If they use

Stormlight - Surges

Towerlight - 1 surge 1 life

LifeLight - Lifes

Not think so. Like higher, Lights can be interchangable.

More likely, Surges are from both Shards, but some of them are more of one Shard than another. Still is problem with Nightwacher, why she would grant Adhesion and Tension, but I think this goes due to nature of Godspren - so large amount of Investiture agregated in one mind is closer in nature to Honor than Cultivation. Large amount of Investiture makes Realms closer, so Godspren is in nature similar to Perpendicularity and this is why they can bring Light from Spiritual (not produce - Investiture is not made, is pulled from Spiritual Realm).

So this would give us 5 more-Honor-ish Surges, and 5 more-Cultivation-y. This will go like this:

Honor:

Adhesion (of course)

Gravitation

Tension

Division

Abrasion

Cultivation

Progression (Of course)

Transformation

Transportation

Illumination

Cohesion

If you look at Surgebinding Chart, you will se they are divided in those groups by diagonal line. Also, Honor's one seems to be more related to "Joining" things, while Cultivation ones are more related to "changing" things.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

BTW, Moash is running on Stormlight, right? So how he isnt surpressed by changed Tower Fabrials? Is he running on Voidlight inside? Or he has so strong Connection to Odium so he is immune to effect (Like he is equivalent of 4th or even 5th Oath?)

Well it's an Honorblade for one.

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Fused seems to have totaly normal Surgebinding.

Teleporting in Physical, walking through stone, altering their physical shape. None of these are possible for anyone else.

4 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Not think so. Like higher, Lights can be interchangable.

Can be, just like you theoretically could use Stormlight to power Feruchemy, but by default you can't change them.

[mathiau]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

I'd put them as a system of all three

Brandon wouldn't

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

Quote

When did we learn this?

Misremembered WoBs

Quote

Czanos

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

Brandon Sanderson

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Quote

and besides that's a bit different, I think Honor definatly could Fuel Lifebinding, of Cultivation Surgebinding

I suspect Honour fuelling Lifebinding would give the user red eyes, same for Cultivation fuelling Voidbinding

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

What does Ishar have to do with this? And why do people like Venli or Shallan use Stormlight when Venli has some pretty Culti vibes going on and Shallan's not exactly a very honor-focused person?

That's my point actually, we know a Bondsmith did something to the order's Nahel bounds and we have Radiants that shouldn't be linked strongly enough to breath Stormlight in that can so I think Ishar (or another Boundsmith) created a Connection between every one bounded to a spren of Roshar and Honour so they could breath Stormlight in.

Quote

Obligatory reminder that we almost never actually see Ideals being accepted by an external being (ie, not the spren in the bond itself), even Kaladin has only had it happen for half of his Ideals (and only one was Stormfather, other was Dalinar).

Oath accepted by an external source that I remember:

Kal's 3rd and 4th, Lopen's 2nd and 3rd, Dalinar's 1st, 2nd and 3rd (stormfather except for Kal's 4th)

Shallan's 1st and 2nd truth to Pattern (by we're not sure who)

Venli's 2nd oath (probably Cultivation), iirc her 2nd oath was previously refused by the Stormfather

Szeth's 2nd oath (by the woman he was a squire too)

Navani's 1st oath

 

As we can note it never happens for the 1st oath outside of Boundsmiths, probably because for the Boundsmiths we saw it was the human who went to ask the Spren while for every other Radiant it was the Spren who came to the Radiant

Quote

I mean, unless tanavastium and koravellium are the same metal...

I don't know, we've seen Brandon say things more wrong than "this is how it works for 7 out of 9 of the order but I'll imply it works that way for the 9" and we've had other WoBs where he was purposely unclear on how the Honour/Cultivation ratios between sprens worked

So I'm putting the probability if Syl not being full Honour at 99% instead of 100%

Quote

Progresssion Fused seem to as well, but considering we still don't really understand how Fused powers and Radiant powers relate, I don't know that that means much.

I think Brandon said Fused were supposed to have more internal equivalent of the Surges, which is why the Deep Ones change themselves so they pass through the rocks while Venli move the rocks and why the Division Fuseds are ablaze while Releasers set things ablaze.

Also

Quote

“I was, Your Grace,” Vono said. “Until she kicked me in my spheres and stuffed me under the bed. Um, Your Grace. Don’t right know how she moved me. She’s not real big, that one.…”

If I remember correctly Stormlight grants increased speed and endurance but not much strength so it could be an example of Lift using Growth on herself

Quote

Though I'd note that Wyndle, who doesn't seem to yet consider her different from any other Edgedancer in that major a way, tries to teach her Growth, so I highly doubt she's the only one who has it.

Edit: and when she performs Growth, he tells her "well done, we’ll make an Edgedancer out of you yet", which certainly implies it to be an Edgedancer power. 

I had forgotten this

Quote

The Radiants presumably just don't view it as terrribly useful when Soulcasters exist, I'd guess. 

I don't know, they are using Rlain technique to make plants grow faster from Stormlight

Quote

Agreed, considering even Voidlight can fuel Surgebinding despite not being part of the Radiant spren at all.

Add to this that Stormlight can fuel Allomancy or Awakening and my argument completely falls flat

17 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Of course, all things have soul. You seem to not understand what I want to tell.

Surge works in all 3 Realms. But there is different effect if Surge is used to change physical object (Made him fall in wrong dirrection, change into other matter etc), the "basic" usage of surge, and is different effect if you use Surge in some process, on more esoteric atribute, but without change of physical appereance of object (like make people change, connect them mentally, gravitatet  to himself, even Connesting Realms, etc). This is what I understand as Physical or Spiritual Usage of Surges (Maybe indeed Aspect is wrong term)

Gravity is an agreement between friends, changing this agreement is a Siritual effects

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I think it is fuel, and is interchangable if Connection is right, and is not influencing type of Magic. We simply to differentiae those thinks.

Beside eye colour of course

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BTW, Moash is running on Stormlight, right? So how he isnt surpressed by changed Tower Fabrials? Is he running on Voidlight inside? Or he has so strong Connection to Odium so he is immune to effect (Like he is equivalent of 4th or even 5th Oath?)

Honourblade are probably equivalent to 5th oath in ther of power

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Not think so. Like higher, Lights can be interchangable.

More likely, Surges are from both Shards, but some of them are more of one Shard than another. Still is problem with Nightwacher, why she would grant Adhesion and Tension, but I think this goes due to nature of Godspren - so large amount of Investiture agregated in one mind is closer in nature to Honor than Cultivation. Large amount of Investiture makes Realms closer, so Godspren is in nature similar to Perpendicularity and this is why they can bring Light from Spiritual (not produce - Investiture is not made, is pulled from Spiritual Realm).

So this would give us 5 more-Honor-ish Surges, and 5 more-Cultivation-y. This will go like this:

Honor:

Adhesion (of course)

Gravitation

Tension

Division

Abrasion

Cultivation

Progression (Of course)

Transformation

Transportation

Illumination

Cohesion

If you look at Surgebinding Chart, you will se they are divided in those groups by diagonal line. Also, Honor's one seems to be more related to "Joining" things, while Cultivation ones are more related to "changing" things.

Are you sure you don't what to switch Abrasion and Cohesion?

Edit: also, Division as a mostly Honour Surge?

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Teleporting in Physical, walking through stone, altering their physical shape. None of these are possible for anyone else.

Personnaly I'm betting on "Radiants can but don't know how"

Edited July 26, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Brandon wouldn't

He simply called it a magic system, no mention of what shard(s) it belonged to.

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I suspect Honour fuelling Lifebinding would give the user red eyes, same for Cultivation fuelling Voidbinding

Do you mean Surgebinding rather than Voidbinding?

And I'd have to disagree

[mathiau]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He simply called it a magic system, no mention of what shard(s) it belonged to.

He also said there where exactly three magic systems other than Old magic

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Do you mean Surgebinding rather than Voidbinding?

And I'd have to disagree

No, I mean Voidbinding. Surgebinding is of Honour and Cultivation so Cultivation powering it is not really her co-opting another Shard's investiture while Voidbinding is (most likely) of Honour and Odium so her powering it would be co-opting another Shards Investiture

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FirstSelector

Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

(of course Dustbringers and Lightweavers eyes are an exception, they're red because their associated gemstone is red)

Edited July 26, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

Just now, mathiau said:

He also said there where exactly three magic systems other than Old magic

Eh, he's said there are anywhere from 3 to 30 magic systems in SA.

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

No, I mean Voidbinding. Surgebinding is of Honour and Cultivation so Cultivation powering it is not really her co-opting another Shard's investiture while Voidbinding is (most likely) of Honour and Cultivation so her powering it would be co-opting another Shar's Investiture

So Why do Odium and Cultivation get their own systems but not Honor?

[+Bzhydack]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Teleporting in Physical, walking through stone, altering their physical shape. None of these are possible for anyone else.

We didnt see many usage of Cohesion (Venli is too fresh with powers), only one Radiant who can use Transportation is Jasnah (who practicly dont use it, she focuses more on Transformation), while Oathgates can teleport in Physical. And change of shells shape is normal function of Parshendi physiology - so redirecting Progression to fuel it is not wierd. Also, they are Cognitive Shadows, and CS can change shape.

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't know, they are using Rlain technique to make plants grow faster from Stormlight

I think he has in mind old Radiants, in time when Urithiru was fully operational.

 

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Gravity is an agreement between friends, changing this agreement is a Siritual effects

Can you stop? I thoght I told everything clear. I. KNOW. THAT.

Spiritual Usage, or maybe better call it Esoteric Usage of Surge, dont have physical effect.

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Add to this that Stormlight can fuel Allomancy or Awakening and my argument completely falls flat

Yes, it can. But noone knows how. But it can.

10 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Are you sure you don't what to switch Abrasion and Cohesion?

Yeah, Im not sure on this two. Simply Cohesion is to me more related to Cultivation, there is also thing with Venli's Oath accepted by Cultivation,

[mathiau]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Eh, he's said there are anywhere from 3 to 30 magic systems in SA.

He said it was either 3 or 30 and if it was 30 Fabrials were 10 of them

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So Why do Odium and Cultivation get their own systems but not Honor?

I'm saying inly Cultivation has her own system (Old magic) each of the 10 centric systems are balanced magic system like Ferruchemy is

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We didnt see many usage of Cohesion (Venli is too fresh with powers), only one Radiant who can use Transportation is Jasnah (who practicly dont use it, she focuses more on Transformation), while Oathgates can teleport in Physical. And change of shells shape is normal function of Parshendi physiology - so redirecting Progression to fuel it is not wierd. Also, they are Cognitive Shadows, and CS can change shape.

Also Shallan mentioned Jasnah couldn't get Transportation to work as it should

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I think he has in mind old Radiants, in time when Urithiru was fully operational.

But they used the Sibling to grow food not Soulcasters

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Can you stop? I thoght I told everything clear. I. KNOW. THAT.

Spiritual Usage, or maybe better call it Esoteric Usage of Surge, dont have physical effect.

Spiritual Tension made Moash blind, I call that a physical effect.

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Yes, it can. But noone knows how. But it can.

Do we have confirmation that no one knows how? We know Hoid don't but what about Khriss?

Just now, Bzhydack said:

Yeah, Im not sure on this two. Simply Cohesion is to me more related to Cultivation, there is also thing with Venli's Oath accepted by Cultivation,

Having Cultivationsprens give a mostly Honour Surge feels weird

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

He said it was either 3 or 30 and if it was 30 Fabrials were 10 of them

He did not say Fabrials were ten

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I'm saying inly Cultivation has her own system (Old magic) each of the 10 centric systems are balanced magic system like Ferruchemy is

Brandon specifically says that Cultivation has a magic system beyond the Old Magic, not Cultivation+Odium

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Spiritual Tension made Moash blind, I call that a physical effect.

Um, no, that's a real thing that can happen

[+Bzhydack]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Spiritual Tension made Moash blind, I call that a physical effect.

But not immedietaly. He was able to run from the tower. And are you sure it was Spiritual Tension, and not Tower Suppresors or Anti-Voidlight Tone?

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Having Cultivationsprens give a mostly Honour Surge feels weird

Yeah, probably. Dustbringers, on the other hand, dont strike me as Cultivation ones, but... They have this deal with controling themselves... Like controling growth...

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

But they used the Sibling to grow food not Soulcasters

But still, they not have use of Growth on little scale, when they can have whole tower working for them.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I think what we're seeing on Roshar is an example of how magic systems being associated to Shards is... messy... in most places, outside the circumstances of Scadrial (with the exception of Hemalurgy, the arts there were directly granted, so it makes sense for things to turn out a bit neater than what we get on places like Roshar, or the gods-cursed mess that is everything to do with Sel). I don't think fabrials are associated to Shards at all, I think it's simply a natural thing that spren-like beings can learn to do. Similarly to the Radiant bond, actually (I think the exact specifics are influenced by the fact the spren are of Honor and Cultivation, but I would almost describe the magic as "of" the spren themselves instead "of" the Shards — but that's a whole other long tangent).

---

58 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That's my point actually, we know a Bondsmith did something to the order's Nahel bounds

We know a Bondsmith may have done so.

58 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Dalinar's 1st, 2nd and 3rd

...

Navani's 1st oath

I don't count those, personally, as in those cases it's the bonded spren talking and not a being who is outside of the bond.

58 minutes ago, mathiau said:

iirc her 2nd oath was previously refused by the Stormfather

Nah, it was rejected by "a femalen voice, so very far away—but thrumming with the pure rhythm of Roshar" (presumably the same as the "distant femalen voice" that accepts them).

58 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't know, we've seen Brandon say things more wrong than "this is how it works for 7 out of 9 of the order but I'll imply it works that way for the 9"

Except the question was specifically about honorspren and cultivationspren, who would be the two it's not the case for in the scenario you propose.

58 minutes ago, mathiau said:

and why the Division Fuseds are ablaze while Releasers set things ablaze.

We haven't actually seen Division Fused, have we?

58 minutes ago, mathiau said:

If I remember correctly Stormlight grants increased speed and endurance but not much strength so it could be an example of Lift using Growth on herself

I think she slicked him, but not sure if we know or not.

58 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't know, they are using Rlain technique to make plants grow faster from Stormlight

Good point. Might still view Regrowth as a higher priority for the Edgedancers to be doing, though.

24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I'm saying inly Cultivation has her own system (Old magic)

Tbh, I still don't count that as a magic system, just a big spren doing big spren things and choosing/being told to do things in a specific manner, but that's an old argument.

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He did not say Fabrials were ten

He did not say so, but we know that there's 3, 10, or 30 magic systems depending on how you count it, and that Surgebinding and Voidbinding are in some manner ten-based, which makes it seem pretty likely. (I agree it shouldn't be stated as fact however.)

---

A WoB that feels relevant to the broader conversation:

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BenFoley

You have stated in your blog that Mistborn had three magic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy) and also that The Way of Kings will have upwards of 20.

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that something like X-Men—with huge numbers of powers—all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3—is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

[...]

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

So defining a magic system is kinda complicated anyway.

Edited July 26, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Frustration]

So here is my model of the magic systems

Surgebinding ~75% Honor ~25% Cultivation

Lifebinding ~75% Cultivation ~25% Honor

Voidbinding - Odium

Fabrials - All Three