Division as Odium's Truest Surge

[apepi]

I do think it is possible that every shard has their own surge, like they each has their own god metal, tone, light, and etc.

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, apepi said:

I do think it is possible that every shard has their own surge, like they each has their own god metal, tone, light, and etc.

There's only 10 surge for 16 shards

[apepi]

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

There's only 10 surge for 16 shards

There's only 10 known surges.

Is it that wild that there could be more? Like we have had forgotten/lost metals and the like. 

[Frustration]

Just now, apepi said:

There's only 10 known surges.

Is it that wild that there could be more? Like we have had forgotten/lost metals and the like. 

there are only ten.

It's a rule of Roshar that there are only ten

[mathiau]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

there are only ten.

It's a rule of Roshar that there are only ten

And he means a rule confirmed by Brandon, not a rule people believes in-universe

[Frustration]

Just now, mathiau said:

And he means a rule confirmed by Brandon, not a rule people believes in-universe

That is correct

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm just curious, there are 16 Allomantic metals, 16 Feruchemical metals, there are 16 Shards of Adonalsium. Are there 16 surges?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Questioner

So there's no correlation?

Brandon Sanderson

10 is an important number on Roshar.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018)

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

55 minutes ago, apepi said:

Is it that wild that there could be more? Like we have had forgotten/lost metals and the like. 

Considering the Surges come linked together in a neat little circle, I feel it'd be weird if there were 6 others completely unconnected to the rest. (It's confirmed the pairings are the way they naturally go.)

[apepi]

On 7/17/2021 at 0:13 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Considering the Surges come linked together in a neat little circle, I feel it'd be weird if there were 6 others completely unconnected to the rest. (It's confirmed the pairings are the way they naturally go.)

I mean....he says it they are like metal...and some people didn't know of all the metals that were possible. So I am not seeing what this is proving.

And like, you can have more surges and it still be a circle.

[+Oltux72]

On 11.7.2021 at 8:58 PM, mathiau said:

Thanks

In universe people consider Enlightened Sprens a type of Voidsprens as far as I can tell

They do, well some do. The problem is that they have never seen a Voidspren (unless you count the Unmade).

And you cannot explain what Renarin does with any of the ten Surges. He has to have something else, the voidish equivalent of Lightweaving. We know that he can heal. But he cannot lightweave. You cannot explain his visions as just a resonance. You must have two powers to have a resonance. He must have something else that is not a Surge.

 

[mathiau]

8 hours ago, apepi said:

I mean....he says it they are like metal...and some people didn't know of all the metals that were possible. So I am not seeing what this is proving.

And like, you can have more surges and it still be a circle.

You can't, you already have the Adhesion-Gravitation-Division-Abrasion-Progression-Illumination-Transformation-Transportation-Cohesion-Tension-Adhesion circle, if you add a new surge you wont be able to change the circle into Adhesion-Gravitation-Division-Abrasion-Progression-Illumination-Transformation-Transportation-Cohesion-Tension-[new]-Adhesion because the Tension-Adhesion link is already there, you'll end up with two circle touching each others.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They do, well some do. The problem is that they have never seen a Voidspren (unless you count the Unmade).

I want to point out the guiding spren, the secret sprens, the chaossprens, the stormspren and Ulim but there have been theory of Ulim being a splinter of Ruin or of Dominion so... (though Brandon consider the Unmades as Voidsprens and there still is some theory about the Unmade originally being splinters of other Shards, Ruin for the Thrill and Preservation for the heart of reveal for example)

Quote

And you cannot explain what Renarin does with any of the ten Surges. He has to have something else, the voidish equivalent of Lightweaving. We know that he can heal. But he cannot lightweave. You cannot explain his visions as just a resonance. You must have two powers to have a resonance. He must have something else that is not a Surge.

And even when he heals there are temporal side-effects.

Edited July 21, 2021 by mathiau

[+Oltux72]

33 minutes ago, mathiau said:

You can't, you already have the Adhesion-Gravitation-Division-Abrasion-Progression-Illumination-Transformation-Transportation-Cohesion-Tension-Adhesion circle, if you add a new surge you wont be able to change the circle into Adhesion-Gravitation-Division-Abrasion-Progression-Illumination-Transformation-Transportation-Cohesion-Tension-[new]-Adhesion because the Tension-Adhesion link is already there, you'll end up with two circle touching each others.

Right. You can have the simple solution. We have three rings of ten members. One ring associated with each Shard. The Surges are assigned to Honor; Voids belong to Odium; and there are likely to be another ten "Lifes" associated with Cultivation.

33 minutes ago, mathiau said:

And even when he heals there are temporal side-effects.

He must have a novel resonance.

[mathiau]

21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Right. You can have the simple solution. We have three rings of ten members. One ring associated with each Shard. The Surges are assigned to Honor; Voids belong to Odium; and there are likely to be another ten "Lifes" associated with Cultivation.

What do you think of that @Frustration? Maybe if we say the right-side inverted Voids are alternate interpretation of the corresponding Surge and left-side inverted Voids are a completely different thing compared to the corresponding Surge there's a chance it will work?

Edit: if people are wondering what I'm talking about, refer to the Surgebinding and Voidbinding charts.

Quote

He must have a novel resonance.

I'm interpreting as him having the Void of progression, Frustration interpret it as Renarin instinctively using Illumination at the same time as Progression, like the Windrunner do with Adhesion and Gravitation

Edited July 21, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

What do you think of that @Frustration? Maybe if we say the right-side inverted Voids are alternate interpretation of the corresponding Surge and left-side inverted Voids are a completely different thing compared to the corresponding Surge there's a chance it will work?

I don't think looking at the artwork is going to give us too many answers.

Now I agree there arre ten surges, ten voids, and likely ten "Lifes" but the Voidbinging chart has already been confirmed to have been given artisic license so I don't think looking at how they are inverted will help us.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I'm interpreting as him having the Void of progression, Frustration interpret it as Renarin instinctively using Illumination at the same time as Progression, like the Windrunner do with Adhesion and Gravitation

I think Renarin has the surge of Progression, and Illumination's Void.

Now the weird things happening there could easily be a resonance, showing them their spiritual self, or it could be intentional on Renarin's part, or something else entirely I'm not sure

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

but the Voidbinging chart has already been confirmed to have been given artisic license so I don't think looking at how they are inverted will help us.

It has?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

It has?

Yeah

I'm probably the only person who actually took an intrest in this WoB, but during my Voidbinging theory I found it.

Spoiler

Narkac

Who is the woman on the "Voidbringer Chart"?

Brandon Sanderson

Isaac did the art. It is just a pattern. She's no character in particular.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

 

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Yeah

I'm probably the only person who actually took an intrest in this WoB, but during my Voidbinging theory I found it.

  Hide contents

Narkac

Who is the woman on the "Voidbringer Chart"?

Brandon Sanderson

Isaac did the art. It is just a pattern. She's no character in particular.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

 

I wouldn't consider her part of the chart honestly

[Frustration]

Just now, mathiau said:

I wouldn't consider her part of the chart honestly

Isaac did the art. It is just a pattern

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

Isaac did the art. It is just a pattern

She is not character in particular

Brandon is talking about the frame here, not the chart itself

[Frustration]

Just now, mathiau said:

She is not character in particular

Brandon is talking about the frame here, not the chart itself

Is the chart itself not art?

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Is the chart itself not art?

We should ask Brandon for precision on what of the chart is only a pattern

Edited July 21, 2021 by mathiau

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

What do you think of that @Frustration? Maybe if we say the right-side inverted Voids are alternate interpretation of the corresponding Surge and left-side inverted Voids are a completely different thing compared to the corresponding Surge there's a chance it will work?

They are rings in terms of topology. The shape they are depicted in those charts as cannot be based on the Surges themselves. The shapes of the symbols are based on symmetry, yes, but that may just as well be a cultural convention. Those Vorins have a highly contentious relation with symmetry.

We have seen the symbols of the orders. But those are of orders, not Surges and may well come out of whatever Ishar did to establish the Knights Radiant.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Edit: if people are wondering what I'm talking about, refer to the Surgebinding and Voidbinding charts.

I'm interpreting as him having the Void of progression, Frustration interpret it as Renarin instinctively using Illumination at the same time as Progression, like the Windrunner do with Adhesion and Gravitation

After one year we can be pretty sure that Navani investigated a security risk. If his healing were all that different fron what the other Truthwatchers or Edgedancers do, she'd know.

The only other things we know for sure is that he cannot make Lightweavings and that he sees the future and that he can make strange lights and visions. Now based purely on abilities I would call Futuresight a major ability and call that a void. It is also vaguely related to imaging. Lightweavers make images; Voidweavers see images. Yet I must admit that relevance is hard to objectively grade.
And Renarin should have a resonance. In fact a resonance seen in nobody else, as until very recently he was the only one of his kind. A combination of Surges has so far been only observed in Windrunners and maybe in Dalinar "healing" temples. Both orders have Adhesion, which by now we must conclude is exceptional.

Now, if we come back to the core topic we must say that hatred is an emotion. Honor is not. Honor is a concept of binding oaths. None of the Surges is about emotions. Yet a Void may be about emotions. Which Surge it is equivalent to is based on too many factors. Maybe it is at the place of Adhesion?

[ReaderAt2046]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:29 AM, Oltux72 said:

They do, well some do. The problem is that they have never seen a Voidspren (unless you count the Unmade).

And you cannot explain what Renarin does with any of the ten Surges. He has to have something else, the voidish equivalent of Lightweaving. We know that he can heal. But he cannot lightweave. You cannot explain his visions as just a resonance. You must have two powers to have a resonance. He must have something else that is not a Surge.

Why can't this be explained as one of the Surges? I always thought that what Renarin was still using Illumination to conjure those visions, just using it in a different way than Lightweavers. Just like nex-im use Transportation differently than Elsecallers do, or like Bondsmiths and Windrunners use Adhesion in different ways.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 7/21/2021 at 8:30 AM, Oltux72 said:

Right. You can have the simple solution. We have three rings of ten members. One ring associated with each Shard. The Surges are assigned to Honor; Voids belong to Odium; and there are likely to be another ten "Lifes" associated with Cultivation.

I strongly disagree with this way of putting it for a few reasons.

1. The "Surges" are not just the effects of Surgebinding. They're a set of (often mostly philosophical) percieved fundamental forces, which the Knights Radiant express aspects of (and we see via things like Bondsmiths that other aspects can be expressed while still being considered the same Surge). So I don't feel there will be "ten Voids" or "ten Lifes", there will be different expressions of the Surges filtered through the lens of the relevant Shard(s). 
2. Surgebinding and Radiance is not just of Honor. It is of both Honor and Cultivation, which both sides agree on. So the "Surges" (as defined the way you seem to be using it, not how I defined it above) would be of both, not purely Honor's.

(This seems similar to what @ReaderAt2046was saying.)

Edited July 25, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, ReaderAt2046 said:

Why can't this be explained as one of the Surges? I always thought that what Renarin was still using Illumination to conjure those visions, just using it in a different way than Lightweavers. Just like nex-im use Transportation differently than Elsecallers do, or like Bondsmiths and Windrunners use Adhesion in different ways.

Nex-im are Surgebinding while we have Brandon's confirmation that at least some of what Renarin is doing is Voidbinding

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, ReaderAt2046 said:

Why can't this be explained as one of the Surges? I always thought that what Renarin was still using Illumination to conjure those visions, just using it in a different way than Lightweavers. Just like nex-im use Transportation differently than Elsecallers do, or like Bondsmiths and Windrunners use Adhesion in different ways.

Because Surgebinders don't see the future. That is Voidbinding.