ReaderAt2046

Division as Odium's Truest Surge

130 posts in this topic

We've definitely seen in RoW that the Surge of Adhesion is the Surge most closely aligned with Honor, which is why Kaladin could still use it in Urithiru. And there's a lot of speculation that Progression is Cultivation's True Surge in the same way, which would explain why Lift could use her Lifelight to bind it in Urithiru. But what of the third god? If there is a Surge specially tied to Honor and a Surge specially tied to Cultivation, then logically there should also be a Surge specially tied to Odium.

And of the ten Surges, I think Division is the one that most aligns with Odium. Odium is fundamentally a force that turns men against each other, that divides them where Honor would unite them. It is a fundementally destructive force, and Division is the most destructive of all the Surges. And note that the highspren and ashspren, the two truespren races who bind Division, are also the only spren races to have members who work with Odium willingly, without first being corrupted by Sja-Anat's touch.

Thoughts?

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I don't know how I didn't see it before :blink: this makes a lot of sense... We're also waiting on the division fused... might they be the last to leave Braise, being the closest to Odium?

 

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I don't think Odium has a truest 'surge' so much as a truest 'Void' which would likely be the Voidbinding equivelent of Division.

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Odium is not Ruin. It is hatred, not destruction or even discord.

Furthermore, why would Odium have a Surge, rather than "Void"? Odium's truest stuff is likely to be the mindless Unmade. The Thrill seems to be the best candidate.

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11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Odium is not Ruin. It is hatred, not destruction or even discord.

Well hatred isn't exactly constructive.

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42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well hatred isn't exactly constructive.

“War is father of all, and king of all. He renders some gods, others men; he makes some slaves, others free.”
― Heraclitus, Fragments

 

I could also quote Odium's speech about him making men men.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

“War is father of all, and king of all. He renders some gods, others men; he makes some slaves, others free.”
― Heraclitus, Fragments

 

I could also quote Odium's speech about him making men men.

Ruin claimed he gave life meaning

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20 hours ago, ReaderAt2046 said:

We've definitely seen in RoW that the Surge of Adhesion is the Surge most closely aligned with Honor, which is why Kaladin could still use it in Urithiru. And there's a lot of speculation that Progression is Cultivation's True Surge in the same way, which would explain why Lift could use her Lifelight to bind it in Urithiru. But what of the third god? If there is a Surge specially tied to Honor and a Surge specially tied to Cultivation, then logically there should also be a Surge specially tied to Odium

This is a very good point, and it makes a lot of thematic sense if Odium is intrinsically tied into the magic system.

In ROW, we see characters grapple with who the ‘real Rosharans’ are, and Navani being able to hear and sing the pure tone of Honor indicates that humans have been on Roshar for long enough to count as ‘real Rosharans’ just as much as the singers. By the same logic, Odium is Rosharan just as much as Honor and Cultivation, so he should be represented in the magic system.

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On 7/8/2021 at 11:54 PM, Frustration said:

I don't think Odium has a truest 'surge' so much as a truest 'Void' which would likely be the Voidbinding equivelent of Division.

On 7/9/2021 at 3:25 AM, Oltux72 said:

Odium is not Ruin. It is hatred, not destruction or even discord.

Furthermore, why would Odium have a Surge, rather than "Void"? Odium's truest stuff is likely to be the mindless Unmade. The Thrill seems to be the best candidate.

I mean the shard magic in the Rosharan system manipulates Surges.

 

Odium was the shard on Ashyn and tricked them into destroying the planet with Surges (kind of hinted this may be because of overpowered invested people holding Dawnshards)

 

 

 

But the cities of Ashyn floated due to the having specific people who were capable of manipulating Gravitation because of a communicable magical Ashynite illness

 

Odium's Ashynite magic is supposed to still be related to the Surges right? 

 

 

 

Manipulating the surge of Transformation or Division or anything by using Odiums investiture would still be manipulating the Surge of division, but it would be Voidbinding.

(According to basically the forum-wide assumption even though we don't really know what Voidbinding is. I also agree that this makes a lot of sense to be what Voidbinding is, I'm just highlighting that we still don't actually super understand that)

Odium's surge could be Division even if no human bonded to a non-voidspren could ever access Division the same way a voidbringer could.

 

But there's something about the "truest surge"that really doesn't make sense. Why do the Fused say that there are only 9 Surges? If the Cultivation/Progression relationship was the same as the Honor/Adhesion relationship why are there Fused that can use Progression, and consider it a real Surge?

 

Why can the Knights radiant use all of the surges including Division?

 

I do really like the idea of Odium having a relationship with Division, but these things don't all seem to line up that well yet

 

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2 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

 

But there's something about the "truest surge"that really doesn't make sense. Why do the Fused say that there are only 9 Surges? If the Cultivation/Progression relationship was the same as the Honor/Adhesion relationship why are there Fused that can use Progression, and consider it a real Surge?

Fused can not know everythig. I mean, Odium related beings Can do what Bondsmith can in some extend - Venli is good example, she can Connect with people like Dalinar can (and this is Spiritual Adhesion), Ba-Ado-Mishram also was able to do this, on much Karger scale even.

So this can Simply be the lie, and Odium can grant Adhesion, but don't want to, because Adhesion Fused will have possibility to Disconnect or Reconnect at will.

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3 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

I mean the shard magic in the Rosharan system manipulates Surges.

And "Voids". That we have seen almost no Voidbinding doesn't make it less fundamental.

3 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Odium was the shard on Ashyn and tricked them into destroying the planet with Surges (kind of hinted this may be because of overpowered invested people holding Dawnshards)

We know little detail about the destruction of Ashyn, save that it involved the use of Connection. We are turning in cycles.

3 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Manipulating the surge of Transformation or Division or anything by using Odiums investiture would still be manipulating the Surge of division, but it would be Voidbinding.

No it wouldn't

  • The Fused have red eyes
  • Renarin (without red eyes)
3 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

(According to basically the forum-wide assumption even though we don't really know what Voidbinding is. I also agree that this makes a lot of sense to be what Voidbinding is, I'm just highlighting that we still don't actually super understand that)

Well, this our problem. We cannot conclude back to Odium from our ignorance.

3 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Odium's surge could be Division even if no human bonded to a non-voidspren could ever access Division the same way a voidbringer could.

 

But there's something about the "truest surge"that really doesn't make sense. Why do the Fused say that there are only 9 Surges? If the Cultivation/Progression relationship was the same as the Honor/Adhesion relationship why are there Fused that can use Progression, and consider it a real Surge?

Because the original limit was the 9 and Odium really clashes with Honor presumably.

58 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

So this can Simply be the lie, and Odium can grant Adhesion, but don't want to, because Adhesion Fused will have possibility to Disconnect or Reconnect at will.

Or Odium cannot grant Adhesion to people he has made immortal.

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8 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

I mean the shard magic in the Rosharan system manipulates Surges.

 

Odium was the shard on Ashyn and tricked them into destroying the planet with Surges (kind of hinted this may be because of overpowered invested people holding Dawnshards)

 

 

 

But the cities of Ashyn floated due to the having specific people who were capable of manipulating Gravitation because of a communicable magical Ashynite illness

 

Odium's Ashynite magic is supposed to still be related to the Surges right? 

 

 

 

Manipulating the surge of Transformation or Division or anything by using Odiums investiture would still be manipulating the Surge of division, but it would be Voidbinding.

(According to basically the forum-wide assumption even though we don't really know what Voidbinding is. I also agree that this makes a lot of sense to be what Voidbinding is, I'm just highlighting that we still don't actually super understand that)

Odium's surge could be Division even if no human bonded to a non-voidspren could ever access Division the same way a voidbringer could.

 

But there's something about the "truest surge"that really doesn't make sense. Why do the Fused say that there are only 9 Surges? If the Cultivation/Progression relationship was the same as the Honor/Adhesion relationship why are there Fused that can use Progression, and consider it a real Surge?

 

Why can the Knights radiant use all of the surges including Division?

 

I do really like the idea of Odium having a relationship with Division, but these things don't all seem to line up that well yet

 

Surge Binding isn't Voidbinding, nor was Ashyn's magic garunteed to be Odium's.

The entire Star system is invested, so Ashynite magic very easily could have been Honor and Cultivation.

And for why Fused can use progression, Surgebinding is closer to Honor than Cultivation, if they had access to a corrupted version of Lifebinding they likely couldn't use progression

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Posted (edited)

Firstly

Quote

Questioner

I've had this question burning deep inside me since I finished RoW, is there a truest Surge of Odium? My headcanon for now is Transportation.

Brandon Sanderson

Hey! So, I'll deal with this eventually in the books, so it's a RAFO for now! But do keep in mind that the Surges on Roshar, as they're understood now, are mostly Honor/Cultivation.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 9, 2020)

Secondly

Quote

You will find that hate can unify people more quickly and more fervently than devotion ever could.”

Hrathen, Elantris p. 74

Odium is an aspect of Unity

Quote

Furthermore, why would Odium have a Surge, rather than "Void"? Odium's truest stuff is likely to be the mindless Unmade. The Thrill seems to be the best candidate.

Here we're using Surge in the large sense of "one of the ten powers that can be bound by surgebinding, voidbinding and whatever the 3rd is", not in the "one of the powersof the kniwht radiant" sense, despite Adhesion being Honour's surge there is a void of Adhesion.

Also the Thrill feels more Odium+Ruin than anything to me

On 09/07/2021 at 10:56 PM, Frustration said:

Ruin claimed he gave life meaning

There is no Journey if there is no Destination, and if everything can be undone then can anything of matter ever happen? (remember, Ruin is more Irreversibility than Destruction, destruction is just the easiest way to do irreversible changes)

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Because the original limit was the 9 and Odium really clashes with Honor presumably.

Then why did Ashyn not return to nine?

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Surge Binding isn't Voidbinding, nor was Ashyn's magic garunteed to be Odium's.

I remember a WoB saying that at least some of the Ashynite were Voidbinders but I can't find it.

Edited by mathiau
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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

We know little detail about the destruction of Ashyn, save that it involved the use of Connection. We are turning in cycles.

And that it involved Dawnshards.

And that it was very similar to Radiant Surgebinding:

Quote

Shardbound

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8690

And that it was using stronger uses of the Surges:

Quote

Ryan

Like how Bondsmiths have stronger versions of their Surges, is it possible to have stronger versions of the other Surges, as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. This is what happened to Ashyn. You can have some very dangerous manipulation of Surges.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/450/#e14434

There's also this WoB:

Quote

Blightsong

In Oathbringer it is revealed that the humans who originally came to Roshar were the first ones to be named Voidbringers and that they carried magical powers. The Stormfather also implies that modern Surgebinding didn't exist before the Heralds. Were the original powers that the humans possessed Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson

So, we're getting into lots of interesting definitional problems here. And also the ways that different entities perceive the definitions of different terms. I will answer this question specifically as we do the flashbacks from Ash and Taln's viewpoints. So you've got a long ways to wait. But understand that definitions are not always-- the way that people define things cannot always be trusted. That said, humans were not using powers from Honor originally.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362/#e11147

We don't know a ton of details, but we know a lot more than just "Connection was involved".

7 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

So this can Simply be the lie, and Odium can grant Adhesion, but don't want to, because Adhesion Fused will have possibility to Disconnect or Reconnect at will.

Yeah, this is my stance, personally. Venli proves Connection is certainly not beyond his ability to grant (and BAM may point towards this too but we know too little there to say), so I feel that he just doesn't want the Fused to be able to break themselves free from his control. And it just so happens his excuse might make the Fused even more pissed at Honor, which is a great bonus for him.

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And that it involved Dawnshards.

Do we know that? I thought it was a theory based on the fact Honour raved about the Dawnshard and the destruction of Roshar (and iirc not necessarily about the Dawnshards destroying Roshar)

Quote

Yeah, this is my stance, personally. Venli proves Connection is certainly not beyond his ability to grant (and BAM may point towards this too but we know too little there to say), so I feel that he just doesn't want the Fused to be able to break themselves free from his control. And it just so happens his excuse might make the Fused even more pissed at Honor, which is a great bonus for him.

It's my stance too thought there's technically the possibility that he can only grant connection through corrupted Sprens and the method he used to make the Fused didn't allow him to grant Adhesion, not that I have any idea on what that would happen.

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6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Do we know that? I thought it was a theory based on the fact Honour raved about the Dawnshard and the destruction of Roshar (and iirc not necessarily about the Dawnshards destroying Roshar)

We do. OB 113:

Quote

But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.

 

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

It's my stance too thought there's technically the possibility that he can only grant connection through corrupted Sprens and the method he used to make the Fused didn't allow him to grant Adhesion, not that I have any idea on what that would happen.

Afawk, Voidspren are different from corrupted spren and are actually Odium's, no? (Though I'm not sure how much we KNOW for certain.)

It's possible that it could relate specifically to the method used to make the Fused as well, yeah. I kind of go back and forth on whether it does or not, as I change my mind on what exactly the Fused are, lol

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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

There is no Journey if there is no Destination, and if everything can be undone then can anything of matter ever happen? (remember, Ruin is more Irreversibility than Destruction, destruction is just the easiest way to do irreversible changes)

That is not the case, Ruin is about breaking things into their most basic forms

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That is not the case, Ruin is about breaking things into their most basic forms

Ruin is the idea that things must one day end, + entropy. I don't think "breaking things into their most basic forms" quite works (though it doesn't not fit, in many cases), considering we've been told Cultivation, who is all about growth and building up, is the Shard it would be most compatible with.

Quote

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy.

Quote

They are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y. Like, you've got these two contrasts, between things changing and things not changing. And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same. And those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium.

Quote

I think that would be--if you read through, that's the soul, sort of, center event is, "Don't leave me, don't go away, don't change." And this is diametrically opposed to Ruin. People focus on the fact that she's good at killing and she is. But that heart, that soul...Ruin is more about things changing and decaying, than even about destroying.

Quote

This force was time infinite. It was the winds that weathered, the storms that broke, the timeless waves running slowly, slowly, slowly to a stop as the sun and the planet cooled to nothing.

It was the ultimate end and destiny of all things.

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We do. OB 113:

Thanks :)

Quote

Afawk, Voidspren are different from corrupted spren and are actually Odium's, no? (Though I'm not sure how much we KNOW for certain.)

In universe people consider Enlightened Sprens a type of Voidsprens as far as I can tell

(what does Afawk mean?)

Also, we have no idea if any Enlightened Sprens other than Tumi are half changed or if the other are completely transformed into Odium.

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Posted (edited)

35 minutes ago, mathiau said:

(what does Afawk mean?)

"As far as we know"

35 minutes ago, mathiau said:

In universe people consider Enlightened Sprens a type of Voidsprens as far as I can tell

From what I can tell, they're regarded similarly but distinctly

Quote

Part of Navani felt it should be red—to reveal the true nature of the spren that hid inside Renarin. A Voidspren. Or at least an ordinary spren corrupted to the enemy’s side.

Here Navani seems to concede that "Voidspren" isn't quite the right term.

Quote

The spren had been watching him, from the heart of a cremling. Rlain and Venli had mistaken Tumi for a Voidspren, but he wasn’t exactly the same thing. Once an ordinary mistspren, Tumi had let Sja-anat touch him, and in so doing make him into something new. A spren of both Honor and Odium.

Same thing here with Rlain and Venli, they mistook Tumi for a Voidspren but realize that's not exactly correct. 

We also do know that at the very least stormspren are not originally of Honor:

Quote

rjl

The voidspren for stormform were red, were they originally of Honor? 

Brandon Sanderson

Nope.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8733

and I think it would be weird if they were originally of Cultivation, since winds and storms are all associated heavily with Honor.

And when we do see corrupted spren, they don't seem to change type, necessarily, they're just... different. Corrupted windspren are still windspren, etc. 

I think it's not impossible the spren are kind of imitations of the existing spren, in a way, but they do seem to be regarded different from the corrupted ones. 

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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I do think that Odium has a "truest Surge." The Surges are mostly of Honor and Cultivation, but a small piece of each of them (excluding Adhesion, of course) belongs to Odium, since Odium is a integral part of Roshar - as evidenced by the fact that Odium's tone is, as of the past few thousand years, one of the three pure tones of Roshar. And like Honor and Cultivation, the size of that piece must vary between each Surge. (Curiously, this could mean that Cultivation and Odium's truest Surges are the same - one surge that just has very little Honor in it.) What this Surge is, however, is another matter entirely.

Adhesion

Nope :)

Gravitation

This is one of the least likely options, for two reasons. Firstly, it is closely related to Adhesion - both are centered around objects being pulled together - which means that it probably has a high percentage of Honor in it. Secondly, it is used by the Windrunners, who are one of the closest orders to Honor, and the shanay-im (Heavenly Ones), who are generally some of the most honorable of the Fused.

tl;dr - too Honor-y.

Division

This is OP's theory. I think this is likely, given that the Dustbringers, one of the orders that uses Division, is focused on controlling their power, and the Skybreakers, the other order, have sided with Odium. Plus, we haven't seen the Division Fused yet, and we have this WoB - 

Quote

Questioner

I've had this question burning deep inside me since I finished RoW, is there a truest Surge of Odium? My headcanon for now is Transportation.

Brandon Sanderson

Hey! So, I'll deal with this eventually in the books, so it's a RAFO for now! But do keep in mind that the Surges on Roshar, as they're understood now, are mostly Honor/Cultivation.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 9, 2020)

This could mean that he'll "deal with it" when the Division Fused show up. However, this theory is not without its faults. If you want to see them laid out in full, just read the rest of the thread, but it basically boils down to the fact that Odium is not an innately destructive force, and Division is all about destruction. One thing to note is that this Surge is directly between Adhesion and Progression.

Abrasion

There's not really much to say for or against this surge. Manipulating the friction of objects doesn't seem very Odious, but it doesn't seem like it's of Cultivation or Honor, either. It's kind of like the True Neutral of Surges. 

Progression

This is probably Cultivation's truest Surge. As mentioned earlier, Odium and Cultivation's truest Surges could be one and the same. However, I do not think this is the case, since growing and nurturing something, unless it's a grudge, is almost like the opposite of Odium's Intent. That would require you to have a desire for something to grow and change - Odium is all about being Passionate about something, and not changing in your views. (I think that makes sense. It does in my head.)

Illumination

This also feels like it goes against Odium's intent. Illumination is all about disguises and hiding things, and I feel like Odium advocates being open with your Passions, and not hiding them. 

Transformation

See what I said about Progression and Illumination. Again, this is a changing force, and I feel like Odium is fundamentally anti-change.

Transportation

This is an interesting one. The main thing that it's got going for it is the fact that it's directly between Honor and Cultivation's truest surges (I'm just going to assume Progression is Cultivation's truest Surge from here on out for brevity's sake). I don't think there's very much to be gleaned from the nature of this Surge - Transportation feels like a very neutral force with few ties to any of Roshar's Shards.

Cohesion

Not much to say about this one. (I'm hungry.)

Tension

hungy

does anyone else want to think about this one?

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7 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I do think that Odium has a "truest Surge." The Surges are mostly of Honor and Cultivation, but a small piece of each of them (excluding Adhesion, of course) belongs to Odium, since Odium is a integral part of Roshar - as evidenced by the fact that Odium's tone is, as of the past few thousand years, one of the three pure tones of Roshar. And like Honor and Cultivation, the size of that piece must vary between each Surge. (Curiously, this could mean that Cultivation and Odium's truest Surges are the same - one surge that just has very little Honor in it.) What this Surge is, however, is another matter entirely.

This idea could explain why Kal and Ishi's powers apears to have temporal effect and how a Truthwatcher managed to see the future a millennia before the first Enlighten truespren.

Quote

Adhesion

Nope :)

As I just said, temporal effect helping locating your ennemies

Quote

Gravitation

This is one of the least likely options, for two reasons. Firstly, it is closely related to Adhesion - both are centered around objects being pulled together - which means that it probably has a high percentage of Honor in it. Secondly, it is used by the Windrunners, who are one of the closest orders to Honor, and the shanay-im (Heavenly Ones), who are generally some of the most honorable of the Fused.

tl;dr - too Honor-y.

Gravitation may pull object together but it also make them crash together, which I think falls well inside the "hate unites" idea I gave earlier.

Also I'd argue that the Shanay-im are more Valorous than Honourable

Quote

Progression

This is probably Cultivation's truest Surge. As mentioned earlier, Odium and Cultivation's truest Surges could be one and the same. However, I do not think this is the case, since growing and nurturing something, unless it's a grudge, is almost like the opposite of Odium's Intent. That would require you to have a desire for something to grow and change - Odium is all about being Passionate about something, and not changing in your views. (I think that makes sense. It does in my head.)

I think some fused talked about making one's passions grow

Quote

Illumination

This also feels like it goes against Odium's intent. Illumination is all about disguises and hiding things, and I feel like Odium advocates being open with your Passions, and not hiding them. 

Illumination is not about hiding things, it's about making the other see what you want them to see which is very Odium-like. Also as I mentioned there was a Truthwatcher seeing the future around the Recrence and even if I don't think the visions are pure Illumination (and appear to be the only one thinking that) I do think they require Illumination

Quote

Transformation

See what I said about Progression and Illumination. Again, this is a changing force, and I feel like Odium is fundamentally anti-change.

I'm more seeing him as neutral toward change

Quote

Transportation

The main thing that it's got going for it is the fact that it's directly between Honor and Cultivation's truest surges (I'm just going to assume Progression is Cultivation's truest Surge from here on out for brevity's sake).

I don't see how this would matter, Odium is about central symmetry so if we use geometric considerations we should focus on Transformation and Cohesion

Quote

Cohesion

Not much to say about this one. (I'm hungry.)

Geometrically it's the Surge that makes the most sense for Odium's truest, that way the Odium-Honour is vertically symmetric (Honour's symmetry) the Honour-Cultivation one is vertical symmetric (most likely Cultivation's symmetry) and the Cultivation-Odium one is centrally symmetric (Odium's symmetry)

Quote

Tension

hungy

does anyone else want to think about this one?

Spiritual Tension appears to be able to weaken people's Identity (cf "Journey before Destination you bastard"), which kind of Odiumy

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

Again, this is a changing force, and I feel like Odium is fundamentally anti-change.

I definitely disagree. I don't think his core is necessarily change, but I'd say the concepts are interwoven to a large extent. To quote Ruin,

Quote

“This work I do, it’s about passion, Vin. It’s about dynamic events; it’s about change! That is why you and your Elend are so important to me. People with passion are people who will destroy—for a man’s passion is not true until he proves how much he’s willing to sacrifice for it. Will he kill? Will he go to war? Will he break and discard that which he has, all in the name of what he needs?”

People who feel are people who do, and do in a way that leads to change.

Similarly, when Dalinar sees Odium's essence:

Quote

Burning.

Overwhelming.

Power.

It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.

It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.

It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.

And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.

It's not a force specifically for change, but these emotions aren't exactly the "sit there and do nothing" kind. They're the kind that push one to act.

(I don't particularly think Transformation or Progression line up well with Odium, though. Merely commenting on that particular statement.)

3 hours ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

it basically boils down to the fact that Odium is not an innately destructive force

Eh.... Odium can be used in other ways, but I'd say it's very strongly a destructive thing still and you kind of have to twist it to do other things. For example, the "hate can unify people more quickly and more fervently than devotion ever could" quote. Yes, it can unite, but generally the unity is in order to fight or destroy something else. Theoretically, I think one could take the concepts played with as maybe Odium-y and make them non-destructive (especially the ones from the OB quote as opposed to just hate), but the books haven't really given an indication this is actually the case with the Shard as it is, imo. Like, the moment T picks up the Shard, it just starts urging him to mindlessly destroy and rage. (And then Moash exists and is somehow Odious despite being the opposite of everything we've been told Odium is... so honestly idek.)

(Which is one of my main complaints so far, it really kind of feels like Odium is trying very hard to challenge the "no Shard is evil" WoBs lmfao. And it feels that way even more after RoW than it did before, to me. RoW felt less like "Odium isn't inherently bad and Honor isn't inherently good", and more like "Odium's forces aren't inherently Odious and can leave him and become good", imo. It feels like the books want to add complexity with the "passion" stuff, but whenever it would actually be relevant, the Shard just becomes pure hatred again. But that's a longer conversation I don't want to get into right now :unsure:)

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I definitely disagree. I don't think his core is necessarily change, but I'd say the concepts are interwoven to a large extent. To quote Ruin,

People who feel are people who do, and do in a way that leads to change.

He liked the result, not the thing. He is like a farmer. They don't like going out in the rain any more than average, but it makes the plants on the field grow, so they welcome it.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Similarly, when Dalinar sees Odium's essence:

It's not a force specifically for change, but these emotions aren't exactly the "sit there and do nothing" kind. They're the kind that push one to act.

Well, no. It is the force that drives you to radical decisions. Passion will also make it impossible to do things that rationally speaking would be advantagous. It just just that radical decisions lead to spectacular deeds we notice more.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(I don't particularly think Transformation or Progression line up well with Odium, though. Merely commenting on that particular statement.)

Eh.... Odium can be used in other ways, but I'd say it's very strongly a destructive thing still and you kind of have to twist it to do other things. For example, the "hate can unify people more quickly and more fervently than devotion ever could" quote. Yes, it can unite, but generally the unity is in order to fight or destroy something else.

Which is a necessary component of live. You cannot truly love something or somebody unless you hate their enemies.
Unless you wish to deny conflict in general. Then we are back to Preservation.

 

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Adhesion seems impossible to replicate by the Fused. IMO it's not simply that its closest to Honor, but that it's more or less exclusively Honor. OTOH there is also no 'true' surge the Fused seemed to use that the Sibling couldn't suppress.

I would suggest that Honor simply gave more of himself than either Odium or even Cultivation, and unlike either of those shards he has a unique surge even if some surges have more Cultivation than others. Similarly there are some that are going to be closer to Odium than others - Division is a potential example given the restrictions placed upon it - but I don't think they are quite comparable to Adhesion.

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