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Posted (edited)

All spoilers - RoW, Dawnshard, Cosmere, WoB, r/cremposting, whispers of fictive headmates, etc:

In a nutgreatshell: I propose that the herald Ishi and the radiant Melishi are one and the same.

1. MELISHI

We know that Melishi was a Bondsmith prior to the Recreance. He was bonded to the Sibling. He enjoyed a position of authority among the Knights Radiant. He lead a strike team to capture Ba-ado-Mishram. He was warned that this would have unintended consequences. He ignored this warning. 

2. ISHAR

We know that Ishar was a Herald of the Almighty. He is currently the mad God-Priest of Tukar. He is obsessed with spren, the Nahel bond, and Connection in general. He is preposterously skilled in combat - far more than even the Blackthorn and several Knights Radiant. Before he was a Herald, he was a part of the development of surgebinding on Ashyn, which led to the destruction of Ashyn, and was part of the subsequent exodus of humans from Ashyn to Roshar. He is still studying the fundamental forces of the Cosmere with an eye towards their manipulation.

3. SIMILARITIES

I mean, basically all of it?

ISHI, MELISHI - their names are pretty dang similar.

Both had positions of authority in the Knights Radiant - Melishi from the way he is spoken of in the Gem Archive, and the Knights Radiant being literally called "Ishar's Knights."

Both are closely associated with Bondsmiths. Melishi was a Bondsmith (bonded to the Sibling), the historical Ishar was the Heraldic patron of Bondsmiths, and the modern Ishar tried to steal a Bondsmith's bond to the Stormfather.

Both are closely associated with Connection. We really only know Melishi in the context of gems mentioning Ba-Ado-Mishram, who in another gem is specifically discussed in terms of majuscular Connection. Ishar, in RoW, is all about that Connection.

Melishi captured Ba-Ado-Mishram in a perfect gem (much the way Dalinar does to The Thrill). Ishar is studying a new way to capture spren, one that involves less jewelry and

The historical Ishar was part of the development of surgebinding on Ashyn. The modern Ishar is trying to mess with the fundamental forces of Roshar. Melishi messed with the fundamental forces by capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram.

The historical Ishar was part of the exodus of humans from Ashyn to Roshar. The modern Ishar is studying the persistence of Invested entities outside of their home. (This is pretty close to what Restares is doing on Roshar, and what Thaidakar is doing on Scadrial.) In the same way, Melishi was studying how to stop Voidlight from getting from Braize to Roshar by means of a spren. These seem similar - even progressive, one two three.

The historical Ishar was part of the Surgebinding investigations that destroyed Ashyn. Melishi was part of the spren-capturing that caused the False Desolation and turned the parshendi into parshmen. The modern Ishar is on his way to becoming the subject of a Behind The Bastards episode. This guy genocides. And I mean, the methods of his madness are bad enough, but his *goals* are probably even worse! The guy should really be the Herald of Ignoring Externalities. "Playing with forces too big for him to control" seems like his bag, baby. He answers the question: What if Lanfear was like "okay, so we've got this Bore. What if we bored a BIGGER bore and then put THAT Bore in THIS bore? Problem solved!" This guy probably has a coffee mug that says "That's a problem for Tomorrow Ishar!" OMG I hate him so much.

4. PROBLEMS

From the Gem Archive, we are told: ""This generation has had only one Bondsmith[...]" This suggests that there are multiple, changing Bondsmiths. But it does not imply that it all Bondsmiths are new. Heck, it tells us clearly that the 'multiple' part is not constant. I expect that none of these parts are constant.

A) Heralds can bond spren. Look at Nale.

B) Heralds can lead their Order - again, Nale.

C) Heralds are immortal. Look at... well, 9 of them. (Sorry Jezza)

D) We know that Ishi is older than the Heralds themselves. He was definitely alive during the time Melishi was alive.

E) Again, Ishar tried to steal Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather - but another way of saying that is, he tried to bond a Bondsmith spren himself. 

F) Back in the day, the Nahel bond was less permanent. Maya says that she thought the breaking of her Radiant bond would hurt, but would not kill her. This implies that it would have left her able to be re-bonded to a new person, making a new Knight Radiant - much as she is on the road to doing with Adorablin. By this same method, a bondsmith could well have bon

G) We are told by the Gem Archive that "This generation has only one Bondsmith." It does not imply that this one Bondsmith hasn't been a Bondsmith for generations - since, indeed, the beginning. And it does not imply that, just because there's only one bondsmith, only one of the Bondsmith spren is bonded. A person can have more than one Nahel bond at once. And if anyone was ever to do this it would be Mr. Bondypants himself.

H) As a result, Melishi could have been bonded to more than one of the Bondsmith spren - before his attack on Ba-Ado-Mishram, or even, during it.

I) Storms, it wouldn't surprise me to discover that Ishar CREATED the Sibling - using his Bonding powers to combine Stormlight and Cultivationlight into a new "Bondsmith-level spren." (We need better vocabulary, here. Bondspren? Shardspren? Greatspren? Pleez halp.)

J) Storms, I'm guessing that Ishi-Melishi is the one who created the Nahel bond entirely

5. SIDE THEORY THAT'S TOTALLY BATSHIT, I KNOW

Since Ba-Ado-Mishram was a Light-level spren, and the only other Light-level spren are the Bondsmith spren, I'm going to go ahead and suggest that Ba-Ado-Mishram could have been a Bondsmith-bondable spren.

Ba-Ado-Mishram might have been a regular ol' spren of Odium, and her only association with Light was to forge a Connection between a Light-source - say Odium himself - and the parsh. Or, Ba-Ado-Mishram could have been the spren of Odium in the way the Stormfather is the spren of Honor, or the Nightwatcher the spren of Cultivation. BUT. What if Ba-Ado-Mishram was a spren like the Sibling - a meeting of the two? And what if, as I theorized about the Sibling, Ishar was involved in her creation? Ba-Ado-Mishram might have been a 'sibling' of Honor and Odium, or of Cultivation and Odium - creating a 'towerlight'-like blend of the two lights. Maybe the creation of such a blended greatspren was part of the Oathpact by which Odium and the Ashyn Refugees were allowed onto Roshar. Maybe there were two of them - three blended greatspren, in addition to one pure greatspren of Odium. Meaning there's one mixed greatspren, and one pure greatspren, that we have yet to meet - or at least to understand.

If Ba-Ado-Mishram was a Bondsmith-spren, Ishi/Melishi could well have bonded her at one point - or indeed, could have been bonded to her even while he was imprisoning her. This might be the reason that the Sibling went into hiding, and refused to bond any new Radiant. His last Bondsmith had betrayed one of his other bonded spren!

(Aside: I kind of wonder if the Sibling being tied to the Tower is actually not that far off from Ba-Ado-Mishram being trapped in a gem. But that's a bit metaphysical for the moment - save 4 l8r.)

And, ifffff this is all true... ISHAR COULD STILL BE BONDED TO BA-ADO-MISHRAM. Still bonded. All this time! This could well be the reason that Ishar is so double extra super crazy at the moment. He could be bonded to a spren who is trapped in a gem and has been stuck underground for a few millennia. That's probably halfway to being trapped himself - halfway to being Taln. Probably not super awesome for the ol' mental health - just guessing.

6. PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER

My guess is that the history/mechanics went something like this.

-Ishar was a human living on Ashyn

-He was interested in the Surges - kind of the way Dr Faustus was interested in the spirits, Dr Oppenheimer in the atom, Dr. Eronaile the Power, or the current Ishar in playing Dr. freakin' Mengele with living spren.

-Odium tempted Ishar with the power to manipulate the fundamental surges

-Ishar did so, creating Surgebinders - probably creating the Nahel bond as we know it.

-In doing so, he also delved_too_deep.gif, and created such instability on Ashyn that the planet was rendered uninhabitable - all but destroyed.

(Side note - the name "Ishar" is quite a bit like the "Ishtar" of Biblical times. There's a lot of cross-pollenation among old deities, and their names... but Ishtar is associated with the serpent who tempted Adam and Eve with the forbidden knowledge that saw them cast out of Paradise. RIP Tranquiline Halls.)

-Odium then asked Honor and Cultivation if he, and his people, could flee to Roshar. The Avasts agreed, under the condition that Odium would stay on Braize and not do, y'know, Odium Stuff. This was the Oathpact. 

-The Oathpact was created, not just by the power of the Shards, but by the power of Ishar the Bondsmith. He created the rules of the Oathpact.

-The reason Ishar was able to bind Shards to an agreement, is the same reason that he was able to bind spren of the cognitive to people of the physical by means of the Nahel bond. It's the same reason that he is all about that Connection and always has been. You see, Ishar is - or at least, was - a Dawnshard. It could be UNITE, as in UNITE THEM; or it could be BIND, as in Surgebinding, as in Bondsmith ("binding contract" sounds a lot like an Oathpact to this attorney.) I'm guessing it's BIND.

-Specifically, Ishar was given th Dawnshard of Binding by Odium. And specifically, he was given it by Odium *specifically* so that it would lead to the ruination of Ashyn, so that Odium could play upon Honor and Cultivation's sympathies to admit his people to their system - and in doing so, let him in, to war upon them, and kill them.

-Ishar then wrote the Oathpact, and Bound the parties to it. The problem, here, is that - pacts are hard. Words are hard. Hell, I'm a lawyer. Writing contracts is hard. Ambiguities are unavoidable, and can be exploited by other parties - and sometimes ambiguities can be hidden by the drafter to exploit themselves. Odium found, or made, those ambiguities, and exploited them - leading to the death of Tanavast, the splintering of Honor, and the cycle of Desolations.

-Hell, Odium might have done this same trick to the other Shards he Splintered. The Bondsmith's power to turn human words into the laws of the Universe is as beautiful and terrible as the very dreams of the skybreakers. (When you've got the Hammer of Gods, everything looks like a Nale. Sorry. No, no I'm not.)

-I don't understand the current status of the Dawnshard of Bind. I know it profoundly affects Dalinar. That's all I know. It could be held by the Stormfather. It could be hidden, but was held long enough by Bondsmith-related entities that it suffuses all that they are. But, if I had to guess, part of the Oathpact was that the Dawnshard of Binding was splintered into ten pieces, and divided amongst the Heralds, whose main goal was not to be interplanetary warlords, but simply keepers of a power that was too great to combine - and too dangerous for Honor and Cultivation to want anywhere near Roshar.  The Heralds, as prison-guards of the power that destroyed their home planet, were then banished to Braize, and never meant to return. Then Odium went all rules lawyer on them, found mad sploits, and thus the endless cycle of free-trips-to-Damnation.

-Whether by Ishar's bindings, or the natural reordering of the world after Odium's people came to Roshar, the Nahel bond became as tied to Voidlight as it was to Stormlight and Cultivationlight. My guess is that three spren were created to be co-equal blends of the Shards in the system. The spren who resides in Urithiru is part Honor, part Cultivation. That spren has two siblings: Ba-Ado-Mishram, and an as-yet-unnamed (or at least, as-yet-unidentified) spren, one of which is of Honor and Odium, the other of Cultivation and Odium. 

-As a result of stacking playing-god on top of playing-god, Ishar/Melishi's capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram stopped what could well have been the imminent conquest of Roshar by Odium. But in doing so - well, Lews Sealing The Bore. Prepare For Unforseen Consequences. OOPS I DID IT A GAIN. This deprived the parshmen of cognition, deprived the spren of the ability to survive the breaking of their bonds, and probably other things that we don't even understand, because THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU STICK YOUR DICK IN THE UNIVERSE.

And... storms, it is quite possible that the name Ba-Ado-Mishram is a sobriquet. "Ado" could come from "Adora," the same root as the first syllable in Adolin's name, meaning "light" - and  "Mishram" contains "Ish" and even "Ishr," which could be linked to the Herald. Maybe there's a Ba-Ado-Mishram and a, idk, Tet-Ado-Mishram, indicating Honor/Odium-light and Cultivation/Odium-light (or vice versa). Heck, maybe the "Sibling" is actually like Asha-Ado-Mishram - three Siblings, created simultaneously by the powers of a Dawnshard, in the hopes of a harmony that Odium immediately sought to destroy. Three multi-shardic blends - three little Harmonys - three little Adonalsiums - simultaneously beautiful in their unity, and terrible in their return towards that which was Shattered.

-The phrase UNITE THEM is probably just a general, all-encompassing idea of the Dawnshard of BINDING. It might even be a mixed version, resulting from the Intention of dead Tanavast and mere echoes of the splinitered Dawnshard. However, I doubt it will be satiated until it has united the splinters of itself (if such they are), and, indeed, the Shards of Adonalsium.

-I expect that is Hoid's biggest interest in the Rosharan system - the unification of the shards of the Dawnshard of Binding, towards his ultimate goal of the reunification of Adonalsium.

-...which interest could very well be at conflict with the best interests of Roshar.

-And, as a result, the biggest single piece on the Rosharan chessboard is probably... Rysn. Because A] maybe the only way out of the BINDing Oathpact is to CHANGE it... and B] because my girl Rysn real good at contract negotiation. TEAM RYSN BABY. ALL ABOARD DAT WANDERSAIL!

 

Best from Great Barrington, Massachusetts, where I am off-Trail hiding from a thunderclaststorm

-Silver the Ridgerunner

Edited by silver-the-thruhiker
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...I also hypothesize that the mixed races of Roshar are the result of Bondsmithery. Parshmen are half-Dragons, and hence can shapeshift but only on a limited basis.

...Why yes I did drink too much caffeine today why do you ask

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The Stormfather was aware of Ishar and Melishi but did not compare the two.

Parshmen predate Ishar and even the ability to bond Surges by several thousand years. And so does the Nahel bond

And the Sibling was Created by Honor and Cultivation.

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On 7.07.2021 at 9:17 PM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Ba-Ado-Mishram might have been a 'sibling' of Honor and Odium, or of Cultivation and Odium - creating a 'towerlight'-like blend of the two lights.

No way, we know what type of Light she provides, and it was exactly Voidlight, and also Voidspren - all Connected to Odium only.

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1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

No way, we know what type of Light she provides, and it was exactly Voidlight, and also Voidspren - all Connected to Odium only.

We know that the Radiants were shocked to discover she had found a way to provide them Voidlight. It would have been rather shocking to think her only able to provide an emulsion of the two lights, only to discover she had found a way to separate them.

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7 minutes ago, silver-the-thruhiker said:

We know that the Radiants were shocked to discover she had found a way to provide them Voidlight. It would have been rather shocking to think her only able to provide an emulsion of the two lights, only to discover she had found a way to separate them.

Lets quote all related:

Drawer 30-20, fourth emerald:

Quote

Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.

Ulim:

Quote

Eventually the Unmade decided to start a war without us. That turned out to be exceedingly stupid. In the past, Odium granted forms of power, but Ba-Ado-Mishram thought she could do it. Ended up handing out forms of power as easily as Fused give each other titles, Connected herself to the entire singer species. Became a little god. Too little.

But more than Voidlight shocking was ability to provide lesser Voidspren - and they are Connected directly to Odium (only corupted/enlightened spren are Conected to Odium and others, and at this time Sia-Anat wasnt able to do this, she even cannot think on her own).

Yes, Ba-Ado-Mishram probably is Godspren (this is name for those most powerfull spren like Stormfather) but from all the Unmade She seems to have the closest Connection with Odium. Clearly is doing what Stormfather is doing, but on Odium's side, and her imprisonment had very drastic consequences for Roshar as a whole, what we know it would also happen if we would remove Stormfather. If I would bet on wich Unmade is from Odium and Cultivation, my bet would be on Sia-Anat.

But I also had theory about Recreance

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I would note that name similarities to heralds tend to not be an accident but a common occurance. I find its more likely that Melishi is simply named after Ishar similar to Kaladin/Kalak, Shallan/Shallash, etc.

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On 7/8/2021 at 3:18 PM, Bzhydack said:

No way, we know what type of Light she provides, and it was exactly Voidlight, and also Voidspren - all Connected to Odium only.

To be fair, we were also told Lift produces Stormlight, and look at what that turned out to actually be :P

(I don't think she was providing a different Light, but I certainly don't think it's impossible that it may have been a blended light and the Radiants just assumed it was Voidlight because "what else could it be?")


This theory was fun to read and see the time put into writing it, but personally I don't think it's terribly likely. Others have already brought up most of the arguments I would against the core idea of the post (such as the Stormfather knowing both separately), so I'll focus on new arguments on parts of the post that are smaller but nonetheless pretty interesting to actually dig into. In this case, an alternate idea on Ba-Ado-Mishram, and some mechanics of the Oathpact.


On 7/7/2021 at 2:17 PM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Since Ba-Ado-Mishram was a Light-level spren, and the only other Light-level spren are the Bondsmith spren, I'm going to go ahead and suggest that Ba-Ado-Mishram could have been a Bondsmith-bondable spren.

Ba-Ado-Mishram might have been a regular ol' spren of Odium, and her only association with Light was to forge a Connection between a Light-source - say Odium himself - and the parsh. Or, Ba-Ado-Mishram could have been the spren of Odium in the way the Stormfather is the spren of Honor, or the Nightwatcher the spren of Cultivation. BUT. What if Ba-Ado-Mishram was a spren like the Sibling - a meeting of the two?

...

And... storms, it is quite possible that the name Ba-Ado-Mishram is a sobriquet. "Ado" could come from "Adora," the same root as the first syllable in Adolin's name, meaning "light" - and  "Mishram" contains "Ish" and even "Ishr," which could be linked to the Herald. Maybe there's a Ba-Ado-Mishram and a, idk, Tet-Ado-Mishram, indicating Honor/Odium-light and Cultivation/Odium-light (or vice versa). Heck, maybe the "Sibling" is actually like Asha-Ado-Mishram - three Siblings, created simultaneously by the powers of a Dawnshard, in the hopes of a harmony that Odium immediately sought to destroy. Three multi-shardic blends - three little Harmonys - three little Adonalsiums - simultaneously beautiful in their unity, and terrible in their return towards that which was Shattered.

Personally, I think she was a sort of spiritual precursor to the Sibling (who we know was only created after the war started), a kind of child of Cultivation and Honor. Breaking down her name as a Vorin-style name with the halves of words gives some interesting results:

  • Ba: "bab", which when we take the H rule into account could be "bah" (meaning: seemingly something in the vein of "child of", though we don't know for certain, it's just context clues)
    • Example: "Rysn bah-Vstim" from Dawnshard (it's mentioned in one of the books that Rysn is legally considered Vstim's child)
    • Side note, could "babsk" come from this?
  • Ado: "adoda" (meaning: "light")
    • Example "Adolin" means "born unto light"
  • Mish: "Mishim" which is the green moon
    • Perhaps refers to Cultivation? (listeners at least do associate the moons with the Shards, see "Honor's moon" for Nomon)
    • Issue some have raised with that: why isn't Nomon named "Merem", if they're named after the Shards?
      • My potential counterargument is that perhaps Nomon was renamed at the same time that Vorinism took Honor and renamed him to the Almighty.
  • ram: "maram" or perhaps "ramar" (neither of these is a known word, but the string "maram" is part of Amaram's name, so I'll guess that that one)
    • perhaps an older version of the word "merem" (meaning: "honor"), following the same vowel shift we see with Kalak -> Kelek

I actually asked Brandon about this, the answer was a RAFO but vaguely in an affirmative direction.

Quote

LewsTherinTelescope

Does "Ba-Ado-Mishram" mean "child of the light of Cultivation and Honor"?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but you're doing a pretty good job picking apart the linguistics of that.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 22, 2020)

Additionally, the Sanskrit word "मिश्र" (depending on the romanization you use, transliterated as "miśra" or, more relevantly, "mishra") means "mixed" or "blended". And one of the forms of the word, "मिश्रम्", is transliterated as "miśram" or... "mishram". And we've been told that Alethi words with Sanskrit roots IRL are intended to represent words coming from the Dawnchant:

Quote

Many Alethi names come from Arabic, Hebrew, or sometimes Sanskrit origins. I devised Kaladin specifically by mashing up names like Khalid and Saladin--among others. The ones you can pick out are, generally, intended to be names with Dawnchant origins. Not to imply actual Earth connections; the point here is the same one I make when using ancient Latin or Greek roots to create magic term words.

General Reddit 2019 (April 17, 2019)

So yeah. Name IRL means "blended" or "mixed" and is from a language usually indicating Dawnchant roots, and her name broken down in a Vorin way might (emphasis on might) mean "Child of the Light of Cultivation and Honor". Combine that with how essential she seems to have been (her removal seems to have caused deadeyes to be able to exist, and it sent the Sibling into a coma and caused them to lose the ability to hear the tones of their parents), I feel she was a godspren of H&C mixed, similar to the Sibling, who was unmade by Odium or perhaps Fused (I feel that the "betrayal" hinted at by the singers may be some of them unmaking her, which would be a big deal potentially). (I also think that the Eila Stele referencing "our gods: ... spren, stone, and wind" refers to Mishram, Nightwatcher, and Stormfather.)

(Credit for the Sanskrit part goes to @mdross81 for originally pointing out "miśra" and @asmodeus for taking that and pointing out the form "mishram". asmodeus also started the process of breaking down BAM's name over on the Discord, which I then continued to get what I have above.)

(Man, I really need to write up a proper post on this to link to instead of just rewriting bits of it over and over again...)


On 7/7/2021 at 2:17 PM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

-Odium then asked Honor and Cultivation if he, and his people, could flee to Roshar. The Avasts agreed, under the condition that Odium would stay on Braize and not do, y'know, Odium Stuff. This was the Oathpact. 

-The Oathpact was created, not just by the power of the Shards, but by the power of Ishar the Bondsmith. He created the rules of the Oathpact.

Interesting idea. Unfortunately we do know that the Oathpact was specifically an agreement between Honor and the Heralds:

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

and that the Oathpact is only an indirect part of him being stuck:

Quote

Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

so this seems unlikely.

Stormfather also mentions this about the binding of Odium:

Quote

HUMANS COULD NEVER WIN WHEN THE CREATURES THEY KILLED WERE REBORN EACH TIME THEY WERE SLAIN. AND SO, THE OATHPACT.

“Ten people,” Dalinar said. “Five male, five female.” He looked at the swords. “They stopped this?”

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH.


On 7/7/2021 at 2:17 PM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

What if Lanfear was like "okay, so we've got this Bore. What if we bored a BIGGER bore and then put THAT Bore in THIS bore? Problem solved!"

LMAO that's an amazing analogy. New terrifying fantasy duo coming to conquer and/or destroy the universe, Ishar x Lanfear.

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@silver-the-thruhiker There is also one thing noone brings in, but is essential. I'm sorry, but I have to kill your theory.

Kalak was in place and time of Ba-AdoiMishram imprisonment. So if Ishar did this, Kalak would know - and this is too important to not mention ths.

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17 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

@silver-the-thruhiker 

Kalak was in place and time of Ba-AdoiMishram imprisonment. So if Ishar did this, Kalak would know - and this is too important to not mention ths.

How do we know Kalak didn't know? He hasn't referred to Melishi or Ishar in the context of the imprisonment of BAM. I think the presence of other heralds at the imprisonment strengthens this theory, not the other way around. They might have been there to support Ishar/Melishi. 

On 7/7/2021 at 0:17 PM, silver-the-thruhiker said:

If Ba-Ado-Mishram was a Bondsmith-spren, Ishi/Melishi could well have bonded her at one point - or indeed, could have been bonded to her even while he was imprisoning her. This might be the reason that the Sibling went into hiding, and refused to bond any new Radiant. His last Bondsmith had betrayed one of his other bonded spren!

(Aside: I kind of wonder if the Sibling being tied to the Tower is actually not that far off from Ba-Ado-Mishram being trapped in a gem. But that's a bit metaphysical for the moment - save 4 l8r.)

And, ifffff this is all true... ISHAR COULD STILL BE BONDED TO BA-ADO-MISHRAM. Still bonded. All this time! This could well be the reason that Ishar is so double extra super crazy at the moment. He could be bonded to a spren who is trapped in a gem and has been stuck underground for a few millennia. That's probably halfway to being trapped himself - halfway to being Taln. Probably not super awesome for the ol' mental health - just guessing.

I've been a proponent of the Ishar=Melishi theory for a while and I have thought that the binding of BAM somehow caused the madness of the heralds but never could figure out how. This makes a lot of sense to me.

In Oathbringer we find out that in order to trap a spren you have to offer it something it wants in order to attract it. Perhaps BAM wanted a bond, and Melishi/Ishar gave it one.

On 7/7/2021 at 3:28 PM, Frustration said:

The Stormfather was aware of Ishar and Melishi but did not compare the two.

The Stormfather is not omniscient, it is conceivable he was not aware they were the same person, especially if we consider the Stormfather's evolution into full awareness (prompted by Honor prior to and in response to his imminent demise) might not have been complete yet.

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2 hours ago, Zanarkand said:

The Stormfather is not omniscient, it is conceivable he was not aware they were the same person, especially if we consider the Stormfather's evolution into full awareness (prompted by Honor prior to and in response to his imminent demise) might not have been complete yet.

He was able to learn from Melishi, and remembered that, I don't think he would be so ignorant as to not realize.

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2 hours ago, Zanarkand said:

The Stormfather is not omniscient, it is conceivable he was not aware they were the same person, especially if we consider the Stormfather's evolution into full awareness (prompted by Honor prior to and in response to his imminent demise) might not have been complete yet.

Sibling too speak about Melishi, and he also should know difference between two of them. Ishar founded Radiants, of course he was in Urithiru many times, and Sibling should know, if he was Melishi.

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7 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Sibling too speak about Melishi, and he also should know difference between two of them. Ishar founded Radiants, of course he was in Urithiru many times, and Sibling should know, if he was Melishi.

It's also possible that Melishi is simply another name for Ishar that has since been forgotten by history. The Sibling and the Radiants of the time were aware of Melishi's identity as the herald Ishar, and the Sibling is not purposely obfuscating that fact, but rather it is unaware of the name currently being used to refer to said herald and is simply using the name that was common at the time.

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He was able to learn from Melishi, and remembered that, I don't think he would be so ignorant as to not realize.

Could you please quote the passage where Stormfather refers to Melishi by name? I have been unable to find it. Thank you in advance.

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18 minutes ago, Zanarkand said:

Could you please quote the passage where Stormfather refers to Melishi by name? I have been unable to find it. Thank you in advance.

SF mentions Melishi twice in RoW 66:

Quote

“How did you know about this ability?” Dalinar said, eyes still closed.

I heard it described before I fully lived. Melishi saw these lines.

“The last Bondsmith,” Dalinar said. “Before the Recreance.”

The same. Honor was dying, possibly mad.

Then a little later:

Quote

Spren have these too, the Stormfather said. And the bond that makes Radiants is similar, but far stronger. I don’t think these little ones are particularly useful.

“Surely these mean something,” Dalinar said.

Yes, the Stormfather said. But that doesn’t mean they can be exploited. I heard Melishi say something once. Imagine you had two pieces of cloth, one red, one yellow. Before you and your brother parted, you each reached into a bag and selected one—but kept it hidden, putting it away in a box, unseen. You parted, traveling to distant quarters of the land.

I’m omitting the rest of the metaphor about the two pieces of cloth.

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6 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

SF mentions Melishi twice in RoW 66:

Then a little later:

I’m omitting the rest of the metaphor about the two pieces of cloth.

Thanks! I'll have to give this a good think, I'll admit it's a very good point against my pet theory.

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