The side-effects of "BEYOND"

[Pandora's shard]

Hi everyone!! 

In cosmere, Brandon has Gods.. Adonalsium, and the shards.. and then, there is "BEYOND". 

It is this that unsettles me a lot.

The concept of "BEYOND" is that, no one knows what or where it is. After you die, your soul goes there (after it has passed the cognitive realm, offcourse). 

So, in short, "BEYOND" could be oblivion, or it could be where THE GOD is... Because that's where the soul goes after the body dies. 

So, how can we call what's not in "BEYOND" as GOD? Is the definition of God, just someone who is absolutely powerful?? 

In our solar system, sun is absolutely powerful. So, is sun a god?? 

To me, the concept of Adonalsium and also the existence of a "BEYOND" shows an inherent flaw. If the god is unknowable, lying in the "BEYOND" and that is the place where the souls go, then, Adonalsium and all shards should never be called as God's. 

If nothing else, the shard, and Adonalsium as well are resources to be exploited. Just like sun's light. Only, these are the magic stars. 

Tell me guys, what do you think about it?? Can you call shards and Adonalsium god, when there is something unknowable and, that's where the souls go? 

[+Oltux72]

Because

• there may be nothing nothing in the beyond
• even if there is it is unclear what relevancy it has

the Beyond  may just be a fancy name for death and emptiness.

The shards of Adonalsium exist in a special realm, are to an extent independent of time and space, have higher forms of perception and understanding and are powerful enough to ceate worlds. You may obviously personally insist on omnipotence. But that is a personal preference. For practical purposes they pretty much qualify.

[Wyndlerunner]

Brandon I believe intends to keep the Beyond a sort of unknowable. It's not likely the concept will play majorly into the Cosmere's plot. The fact that Adonalsium was killed, at least in my mind disqualifies it from being a capital G God.  

I also think part of the reason Brandon hasn't really talked a lot about what exactly the Beyond is comes from preference to let the reader decide what it is. I personally do believe in an afterlife, so I've always viewed the Beyond as a classical, 'heaven'-esque, style afterlife. But, if for example, someone doesn't believe in an afterlife, the Beyond can be simply an end to existence. If it makes sense, I see the Beyond as being Brandon's way of leaving the details of what happens after death up to the reader's individual preference and interpretation.

[Aspiring Writer]

11 hours ago, Pandora's shard said:

Hi everyone!! 

In cosmere, Brandon has Gods.. Adonalsium, and the shards.. and then, there is "BEYOND". 

It is this that unsettles me a lot.

The concept of "BEYOND" is that, no one knows what or where it is. After you die, your soul goes there (after it has passed the cognitive realm, offcourse). 

So, in short, "BEYOND" could be oblivion, or it could be where THE GOD is... Because that's where the soul goes after the body dies. 

So, how can we call what's not in "BEYOND" as GOD? Is the definition of God, just someone who is absolutely powerful?? 

In our solar system, sun is absolutely powerful. So, is sun a god?? 

To me, the concept of Adonalsium and also the existence of a "BEYOND" shows an inherent flaw. If the god is unknowable, lying in the "BEYOND" and that is the place where the souls go, then, Adonalsium and all shards should never be called as God's. 

If nothing else, the shard, and Adonalsium as well are resources to be exploited. Just like sun's light. Only, these are the magic stars. 

Tell me guys, what do you think about it?? Can you call shards and Adonalsium god, when there is something unknowable and, that's where the souls go? 

The definition you are using for god is not what everyone uses for god. Being unknowable isn't really a universal requirement for godhood. I will say that things that were considered unknowable have been associated with gods and worship like the sun is commonly seen as a god in many religions, so the two aren't exactly unconnected. The shards can definitely fit a definition of god, (a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.), and I believe Adonaslium would by extension fit that definition. You also are making the assumption that Adonslium can't be god if there is a god in the Beyond. Admittedly, this does mean he can't be God, singular, but there can be multiple gods, Adonslium being a god of the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual realms, whatever in the Beyond being the god of the beyond. Even some Monotehstic religions have multiple gods, but only one god of worship, the other god often being evil incarnate. 

Notes, the sun is not absolutely powerful. You could say it is the most powerful thing in our star system, but the sun has limits, and a lifespan. It will eventually die. So, by definition, not absolutely powerful. I am not sure if the same would apply to shards, who are said to have virtually infinite investiture, which BS can say with a hand wave. The way they act, however, does not make me believe they would fit that definition, either. And the definition of a God being an absolutely powerful being is a common one.

[mathiau]

On 06/07/2021 at 6:44 PM, Pandora's shard said:

After you die, your soul goes there (after it has passed the cognitive realm, offcourse).

Your spirit goes there, according to Sazed your soul returns to the Cosmere

[+Oltux72]

On 7.7.2021 at 2:11 AM, Wyndlerunner said:

Brandon I believe intends to keep the Beyond a sort of unknowable. It's not likely the concept will play majorly into the Cosmere's plot. The fact that Adonalsium was killed, at least in my mind disqualifies it from being a capital G God.  

Kronos, Baldur, Osiris, ...

Human mythology is full of dead gods. A definition of religion and deities that rules out most of man's religions and arguably the default by definition, which is polytheism, isn't really productive.

 

[Frustration]

53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Kronos, Baldur, Osiris, ...

Human mythology is full of dead gods. A definition of religion and deities that rules out most of man's religions and arguably the default by definition, which is polytheism, isn't really productive.

 

There is a reason for the Capital G.

[Weltall]

These WoBs are relevant to the original question and why Brandon isn't going to answer it (and there are more), so there's no 'right' interpretation of the Beyond.

Quote

Questioner

I wanted to know what your stance on gods were, if you were trying-- If you had a meta-message about God.

Brandon Sanderson

If I what?

Questioner

If you had a meta-message about God.

Brandon Sanderson

I do not really. What I'm fascinated by ends up in the books and I'm fascinated by religion. But even in something like The Stormlight Archive, I don't want there necessarily even be a definitive answer? There are god... lowercase "g" gods. Whether there is a capital "G" God is still, in my opinion, left to the interpretation of various people. I'm not necessarily trying to say anything specific, I'm trying to say what the different characters say. Does that make sense? Jasnah doesn't speak my belief, but neither does Dalinar. But they speak their belief, and I try to respect their belief the best I can. So it's more like trying to be true to the different characters.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

Quote

dIvorrap

Was really Evi the voice that Dalinar heard when he opened Honor's perpendicularity?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. (You knew it was coming.)

So here's the thing--I'm never going to confirm or deny anything from Beyond the Spiritual Realm. Because it is unfair for me to do so. I believe there is an afterlife in our world, while others (quite rationally) conclude there is not.

The Cosmere has systems in place for ghosts and things to be real, yes, but I want it to always be possible for intelligent people to disagree about things like Evi's voice. Spiritual Connection creates visions in the Cosmere that are quite realistic (like all the ones Dalinar experienced.)

What Dalinar heard here could very rationally be a version of such a vision. That's what the Death Rattles are, for example.

Or, it could be his dead wife speaking to him from beyond the grave. Navani would say that's what it is; Jasnah would say it's the first. I try very hard (despite my personal biases) to not undercut the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It is vital to me that the author not sweep in and say, "Yeah, it's cool some characters are Atheists at all who doesn't believe in an afterlife...but nudge nudge, we both know there is one."

The existence of an afterlife (not Cognitive Shadow style, but in the Beyond) in the cosmere is subject to your own personal interpretation. Everything that happens like this CAN be explained by Realmatic Theory, with very valid examples from the books.

General Reddit 2020 (June 5, 2020)

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Weltall

[Meg]

On 7/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, Pandora's shard said:

Hi everyone!! 

In cosmere, Brandon has Gods..

Are there "capital G" Gods (plural)? I mean, in one and the same culture or religion? I admittedly don't remember.

 

On 7/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, Pandora's shard said:

It is this that unsettles me a lot.

The concept of "BEYOND" is that, no one knows what or where it is. After you die, your soul goes there (after it has passed the cognitive realm, offcourse). 

So, in short, "BEYOND" could be oblivion, or it could be where THE GOD is... Because that's where the soul goes after the body dies. 

So it is, IMHO? I agree with Wyndlerunner that I think it's intentional by BS that he doesn't talk about the Beyond.
 

On 7/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, Pandora's shard said:

So, how can we call what's not in "BEYOND" as GOD?

I don't get here whether you're talking of God or god, sorry.
 

On 7/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, Pandora's shard said:

Is the definition of God, just someone who is absolutely powerful?? 

The definition of "god"/"deity" seems to go in this direction though this is not necessarily the definition of "God" (in real life, as here the "capital G" is an invention of monotheistic religions).
 

On 7/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, Pandora's shard said:

In our solar system, sun is absolutely powerful. So, is sun a god?? 

For some religions on Earth: yes.
 

On 7/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, Pandora's shard said:

To me, the concept of Adonalsium and also the existence of a "BEYOND" shows an inherent flaw. If the god is unknowable, lying in the "BEYOND" and that is the place where the souls go, then, Adonalsium and all shards should never be called as God's. 

Hmm, for each planet/culture/region a Shard can be "God" (for example as the Almighty is/was for the Vorins).


In addition I dare hint that on some Shardworlds  people worship the  "God Beyond" or "Unknown God" though we don't know yet whether the "God Beyond" is related to the Beyond.

Now there's a new reply to my yet unfinished edit. Sorry for the confusion.

[ScadrianTank]

On 06.07.2021 at 7:44 PM, Pandora's shard said:

Tell me guys, what do you think about it?? Can you call shards and Adonalsium god, when there is something unknowable and, that's where the souls go? 

Personally, I call Adonalsium god because the Beyond doesn't affect my view on life in the cosmere any more than any of the interpretations of the afterlife affect my life IRL. If capital G God is out there somewhere - good for them, I'll just mind my own business here. It doesn't lower Adonalsium as much in my eyes compared to someone like Dalinar. As far as I know, they might've created all of existence - which is unconfirmed and actively debated by some - and a thing that can do that has enough authority over the universe to address my prayers to it. In terms of theological-oriented arguments for this point, I can argue that if there is only one absolutely powerful being in all of existence and if its power can't be replicated - then we might as well call it God. Don't know if it applies to Adonalsim - since they're dead - by it's still worth considering. 

P.S. The whole concept of creators having authority over the creations has a whole lot of other implications that I find fascinating, particularly about AI and artificial human-designed life.