Are we treating Lin Davar fairly?

[Bort]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I doubt Lin was as influenced as Dalinar because Dalinar was the most influenced charater we have ever seen

Another sweeping statement with no basis in fact, or do you have something to actually back up what you're saying here? Or is this just your opinion? Personally, I think it's entirely possible because it seems from Shallan's flashbacks that the Davar household was under the influence of an Unmade for several years, where Dalinar specifically only felt the Thrill during combat. You see that? I explained why I thought the way I did. You should try it sometime.

So, why do you think what you think? What reasons from the Stormlight Archives do you have to think the way you do?

And if Lin was under the influence of an Unmade, why do you assume he had all his free will, or was capable of understanding what he was doing? Indeed, his behaviour seems to suggest he didn't entirely know what he was doing, or he would have realised that his actions were what was causing his family to turn against him, but he never did figure that out, just kept getting worse. To me, that suggests sickness, not evil.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Bort said:

 You see that? I explained why I thought the way I did. You should try it sometime.

Once again please refrain from ad Hominim

2 hours ago, Bort said:

Another sweeping statement with no basis in fact, or do you have something to actually back up what you're saying here? Or is this just your opinion? Personally, I think it's entirely possible because it seems from Shallan's flashbacks that the Davar household was under the influence of an Unmade for several years, where Dalinar specifically only felt the Thrill during combat. So, why do you think what you think?

What reasons from the Stormlight Archives do you have to think the way you do?

Maybe the fact that Odium said that he had been specifically preparing Dalinar for years? Or the entirety of Oathbringer? Or the fact that he once felt it so severly couldn't see?

Or the fact that as a result he was able to summon a pseudo-blade despite the Stormfather's wish? Take your pick Dalinar is the only charater to be shown to be this severly affected.

2 hours ago, Bort said:

And if Lin was under the influence of an Unmade, why do you assume he had all his free will, or was capable of understanding what he was doing? Indeed, his behaviour seems to suggest he didn't entirely know what he was doing, or he would have realised that his actions were what was causing his family to turn against him, but he never did figure that out, just kept getting worse. To me, that suggests sickness, not evil.

Dalinar makes it clear he had free will.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Frustration

[Bort]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Once again please refrain from ad Hominim

Maybe the fact that Odium said that he had been specifically preparing Dalinar for years? Or the entirety of Oathbringer? Or the fact that he once felt it so severly couldn't see?

Or the fact that as a result he was able to summon a pseudo-blade despite the Stormfather's wish? Take your pick Dalinar is the only charater to be shown to be this severly affected.

Re-read the ending of OB, Dalinar makes it clear he had free will.

Everything that happened to Dalinar was still in little bits. He dipped into the Thrill while in battle, then would have months sitting doing nothing. That's not the same as having a permanent oppression going on all around you solidly for years.

And his summoning of the pseudo-Blade I think is more an indicator of his powers being unbound by Honor. That's why he can do it despite the Stormfather not wanting him to.

Also, I would point out that Odium telling Dalinar something doesn't mean that something similar wasn't going on with Lin and one of the Unmade, does it?

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Bort said:

Also, I would point out that Odium telling Dalinar something doesn't mean that something similar wasn't going on with Lin and one of the Unmade, does it?

Why would Odium want an old nobody from back country Vedanar who can barely fight?

Dalinar was so heavily influenced all attempts to see the future showed him falling, except maybe for Cultivation. And yet he chose differently, once again proving that the unmade cannot take free will.

[Bort]

Just now, Frustration said:

Why would Odium want an old nobody from back country Vedanar who can barely fight?

Dalinar was so heavily influenced all attempts to see the future showed him falling, except maybe for Cultivation. And yet he chose differently, once again proving that the unmade cannot take free will.

Who said it was Odium? Remember Unmade influence in Jah Keved? All the speculation about which Unmade was influencing the Davar household? And we've seen Unmade with their own agendas, so why do you assume it's Odium?

Also, seeing the future is of Odium. Why do you assume you see truth, and not what Odium wants you to see? Remember, Renarin in OB, "The visions can be wrong!!!"

[Frustration]

Just now, Bort said:

Who said it was Odium? Remember Unmade influence in Jah Keved? All the speculation about which Unmade was influencing the Davar household? And we've seen Unmade with their own agendas, so why do you assume it's Odium?

I'm more than well aware that the unmade in the davar household was likely Chemoarish.

But Unmade are WAY less powerful than Odium, if Odium wanted Dalinar he had far more power to exert than any of the unmade. So I find it hard to believe than anyone would be more influenced than the one that Odium himself specifically wnated

2 minutes ago, Bort said:

Also, seeing the future is of Odium.

No it's not

Fortune is not of any shard.

3 minutes ago, Bort said:

Why do you assume you see truth, and not what Odium wants you to see?

Because Shards can't control their magic system like that.

Spoiler

RandyD

Can a Shard just--like, say someone is using their magic system--can they stop the power from them being able to use it?

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's a bit like stopping the laws of physics. So, while they can circumvent laws of physics and things like that, but if you wanted to stop someone from using magic, smiting them would be the efficient way of making that happen, if you are capable of it in the system.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

RandyD

Can a Shard just smite someone? Like, "Boom, you're dead," and they die?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Shards can do this, depending on where they are. For instance, Odium can't, but Endowment could.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

[Bort]

I don't mean that Odium is controlling the magic, only that the future sight he's giving Renarin isn't necessarily actual future sight, and more because it comes through Odium, it's Odium-wishful-thinking sight, showing a vision of the future that Odium most wants to occur. Not saying it's something that is controlled, or even controllable, just putting it out as a potential idea.

This would explain why Renarin saw Dalinar fall so many times, but he never did.

On Roshar, seeing the future is of Odium. This is the cultural belief that the people of Roshar have. There has to be some kind of fact backing that up in world.

And yes, while Odium has obscene amounts of power compared to the Unmade, why would you assume he'd expend any of it trying to corrupt Dalinar, given that he had the Thrill doing just that for him. For that matter, why would you believe a word Odium tells Dalinar? It could well be true, but it could just as easily be a total fabrication, or somewhere in the middle. I mean, what kind of God would the Father of Hate be if he couldn't lie once in a while?

And remember, until the Everstorm, Odium spent just as much time hiding from Cultivation as he did plotting. Using too much of his power would have given her an opening.

Yeah, speculation tells us you are likely right about the identity of the Unmade in the Davar household, but we know very little about it. Why was it there? Who was it influencing? (I suspect everyone is the answer to that last one). Was it there doing Odium's bidding, or working on it's own plans? Either way, what were those plans?

Edited January 25, 2022 by Bort

[Pathfinder]

So I think clearing the air a bit might help things. First and foremost, if I misrepresent you @Frustration , I apologize and please feel free to correct me. I am only elaborating on what I believe is the source of your stance, so it may be a little clearer. I do not want to put words in anyone's mouths, so again if you take issue with anything I say, it is not with the intention of misrepresenting you and please feel free to say as much.

@Bort Regarding Frustration's beliefs, they believe that true redemption and forgiveness can only be provided through a higher power, and only through true and genuine change. What I mean by that, is the individual has to realize what they are doing is wrong, and seek to change the behavior. Thereby there are theoretically two states of being an individual can be in:

 

1. Committing the evil and thereby are evil

2. Repented for their actions and changed how they acted. Thereby no longer "evil"

 

I put quotes around evil in state 2, because their actions and who they were are still evil, but now they repented, are forgiven, and have changed their actions. So in the examples of Dalinar and Lin Davar, as Frustration said, in their opinion, one repented, one did not. Now as you argue, it is a question of timeline. One was afforded the time and chance to change, while the other seemingly did not. But given the understanding of Frustration's view, that is immaterial. All that is material is whether you are in state 1, or state 2. 

Now having said this, that is not my own opinion nor view on the situation. Just felt I was clarifying a bit on what seems to be a fundamental view of Frustration's. You can certainly take issue with it and disagree with it, but I think in that light, it might foster the conversation a bit more. 

Again to Frustration, as I stated earlier, if I misrepresented you, or you feel I oversimplified your beliefs, I do apologize. Please feel free to correct me. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Pathfinder

[CryoZenith]

@Pathfinder Reading over the arguments here, I don't think this is only a philosophical disagreement, but an empirical disagreement as well. There seem to be facts of the matter that Bort and Frustration disagree on (such as whether Dalinar took in an average amount of Thrill or whether he took an Odium-empowered amount of Thrill, or whether the unmade can overtake free will, or whether we should believe what Odium said about grooming Dalinar etc.) Resolving the empirical disagreements would not remove the fundamental ethical differences between the debaters, but it would actually change a lot of factors IMHO.

(on the Elantris tangent)

Spoiler

Kmon guys Hrathen is not evil lol. I genuinely think that if you define "evil" so broadly that it includes Hrathen, the word loses its utility.

[Bort]

Thanks @Pathfinder, but I did understand that.

I am arguing that Lin's actions, while evil, may not have entirely been his fault, due to outside influences, and earlier choices which placed him onto this path. Frustration is arguing that it doesn't matter what was influencing him, it's all his fault anyways, regardless, because the actions were his. There have been tangents to this, like the time frame and Dalinar's chance of redemption that Lin didn't get, but this is the essence of the debate.

If it's accepted that Dalinar did a load of evil things while under the influence of an Unmade and/or Odium, and he's forgiven by the reader, why is it so important that Lin be condemned for the same thing? Literally the only difference is that Dalinar got his redemption arc, while Lin got murdered.

By the same logic, @Frustration, do you also believe that Shallan is evil? She killed her parents after all., then plotted a theft which had the potential to put two countries at war.

@CryoZenith -

I don't think Hrathen is evil

[Pathfinder]

(edit, I had a response, then thought of something to add to that response, but at the end of the day I am responding on behalf of someone who never asked that I do so, nor do I personally espouse these beliefs, so I think I will just delete what I wrote and leave it there. Don't think continuing will help anything. So just going to call it.)

Edited January 25, 2022 by Pathfinder

[Bort]

It's a very "black and white" view of the world, and I feel that neither the real world nor Roshar fits into such a model. Everything has shades of grey, where Frustration seems to take only the black and white view.

This is why I asked him about Shallan. It's a curious case. She has never apologised for what she did. She has never sought redemption for it. Indeed, as we learn more about her, we discover that there are more people that she hurt with her actions.

RoW Spoiler:

 

Also, is Shallan evil because Radiant, one of her alternative personalities, killed Ialai? Or does this make Radiant evil? How does it work if they are the same person?

Edited January 25, 2022 by Bort

[Frustration]

58 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I think clearing the air a bit might help things. First and foremost, if I misrepresent you @Frustration , I apologize and please feel free to correct me. I am only elaborating on what I believe is the source of your stance, so it may be a little clearer. I do not want to put words in anyone's mouths, so again if you take issue with anything I say, it is not with the intention of misrepresenting you and please feel free to say as much.

@Bort Regarding Frustration's beliefs, they believe that true redemption and forgiveness can only be provided through a higher power, and only through true and genuine change. What I mean by that, is the individual has to realize what they are doing is wrong, and seek to change the behavior. Thereby there are theoretically two states of being an individual can be in:

 

1. Committing the evil and thereby are evil

2. Repented for their actions and changed how they acted. Thereby no longer "evil"

 

I put quotes around evil in state 2, because their actions and who they were are still evil, but now they repented, are forgiven, and have changed their actions. So in the examples of Dalinar and Lin Davar, as Frustration said, in their opinion, one repented, one did not. Now as you argue, it is a question of timeline. One was afforded the time and chance to change, while the other seemingly did not. But given the understanding of Frustration's view, that is immaterial. All that is material is whether you are in state 1, or state 2. 

Now having said this, that is not my own opinion nor view on the situation. Just felt I was clarifying a bit on what seems to be a fundamental view of Frustration's. You can certainly take issue with it and disagree with it, but I think in that light, it might foster the conversation a bit more. 

Again to Frustration, as I stated earlier, if I misrepresented you, or you feel I oversimplified your beliefs, I do apologize. Please feel free to correct me. 

Yep good job.

38 minutes ago, Bort said:

By the same logic, @Frustration, do you also believe that Shallan is evil? She killed her parents after all., then plotted a theft which had the potential to put two countries at war.

Shallan?

For killing her parents no, as they were attacking either her or her brother at the time. For trying to steal Jasnah's soulcaster, I feel that was more the action of a child, I'm not sure on that one that would depend on factors I can't see.

15 minutes ago, Bort said:

It's a very "black and white" view of the world, and I feel that neither the real world nor Roshar fits into such a model. Everything has shades of grey, where Frustration seems to take only the black and white view.

I disagree, I look and all I see is black and white.

18 minutes ago, Bort said:

This is why I asked him about Shallan. It's a curious case. She has never apologised for what she did. She has never sought redemption for it. Indeed, as we learn more about her, we discover that there are more people that she hurt with her actions.

RoW Spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, is Shallan evil because Radiant, one of her alternative personalities, killed Ialai? Or does this make Radiant evil? How does it work if they are the same person?

I don't even know where to begin on that topic, there are some instances in which mental illness can absolve a person, whether this is one of them I don't know.

Assuming that that is not the case then yes.

[Bort]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Yep good job.

Shallan?

For killing her parents no, as they were attacking either her or her brother at the time. For trying to steal Jasnah's soulcaster, I feel that was more the action of a child, I'm not sure on that one that would depend on factors I can't see.

I disagree, I look and all I see is black and white.

I don't even know where to begin on that topic, there are some instances in which mental illness can absolve a person, whether this is one of them I don't know.

Assuming that that is not the case then yes.

So, could be the act of a child... Mental health issues...

This is exactly my point about the worlds not being black and white. You say here you see everything in black and white, and then immediately start bringing up shades of grey.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bort said:

So, could be the act of a child... Mental health issues...

This is exactly my point about the worlds not being black and white. You say here you see everything in black and white, and then immediately start bringing up shades of grey.

No, I bring up an area in which I have inssufficent knowledge to make a call, if I knew everything I could, but I do not.

That is why God is the judge, not me.

[Bort]

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, I bring up an area in which I have inssufficent knowledge to make a call, if I knew everything I could, but I do not.

That is why God is the judge, not me.

Which God are you talking about? Also, if your God is the judge, why are you judging Lin? Or indeed anyone? 

[Chaos]

I don't think we need to bring real world religion into this topic; I don't think that will be helpful.

The staff is noticing rising tensions in this thread, so we would like people to cool down a bit and come back later. Everyone should be respectful and courteous to all, as our Code of Conduct says.

[Medium]

So uh....

Have we cooled off?

Can we continue the civilized discussion on Lin Davar?

I would like to offer my opinion.

Having read the series 4 times (yes i know, it is a number. small for some, big for others. i am proud of this number), i have a decent perspective on Lin's motives.

I believe that he is overworked. Stressed. Obviously, this is true. But he copes with it in horrible, and I mean HORRIBLE ways.

Beating his children, reckless endangerment of his reputation, etc.

He deserves some pity, but not for everything. What happened with Shallan's mother does not deserve pity in any way. But the stress of his life takes a toll, and I couldn't help but pity him in that one scene when he yells at Shallan, and then sees that he's yelling at Shallan, and is mortified. The poor man was struggling. And in that moment, I pitied him.

But that was the only moment he deserved pity. Most other times, not so much. 

This is mostly me ranting, don't read too much into it thanks.

TTYL besties

-Doomslug

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Doomslug The Destroyer said:

So uh....

Have we cooled off?

Can we continue the civilized discussion on Lin Davar?

I would like to offer my opinion.

Having read the series 4 times (yes i know, it is a number. small for some, big for others. i am proud of this number), i have a decent perspective on Lin's motives.

I believe that he is overworked. Stressed. Obviously, this is true. But he copes with it in horrible, and I mean HORRIBLE ways.

Beating his children, reckless endangerment of his reputation, etc.

He deserves some pity, but not for everything. What happened with Shallan's mother does not deserve pity in any way. But the stress of his life takes a toll, and I couldn't help but pity him in that one scene when he yells at Shallan, and then sees that he's yelling at Shallan, and is mortified. The poor man was struggling. And in that moment, I pitied him.

But that was the only moment he deserved pity. Most other times, not so much. 

This is mostly me ranting, don't read too much into it thanks.

TTYL besties

-Doomslug

Wait, what happened with Shallan's mother? You mean Shallan's stepmother?

But yeah, I pretty much agree with your analysis of Lin's motivations. I think that he was also heavily influenced by the unmade, but overwork and stress probably played a factor as well.

Personally, I feel pity for him and the whole Davar family. Things could have turned out so much better for them all, and we don't even really know the full details of why it turned out that way, and probably won't until at least KoW.

[Medium]

57 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Wait, what happened with Shallan's mother? You mean Shallan's stepmother?

Shallan's biological mother. Remember, the one who was killed by Shallan herself? It was super traumatizing and caused her to make Testament into a deadeye?

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Doomslug The Destroyer said:

Shallan's biological mother. Remember, the one who was killed by Shallan herself? It was super traumatizing and caused her to make Testament into a deadeye?

So why does he not deserve pity for that? He didn't do anything wrong. Or are you talking about Shallan?

[Kandrafish]

I've read everything and concluded that there are too many factors to determine if we are being too hard on Lin Davar. I don't even know who "we" are or how hard "we" are being on Lin. There are certainly countless possibilities that could justify his actions... Maybe all those servants he killed were assassins (I doubt it, though). With the data we have, I think that he is a bad person who deserved to go to prison for a long time. He did horrible things. But... lots of what happened was behind closed doors and Lin is part of an organization with powerful enemies (maybe there really are assassins) and Shallan is a compulsive liar, so even what we think we know is suspect... All I know is that I know nothing... (I spent too long reading to not point out how pointless this argument is due to a lack of data)

(Side Note: Evil people are not necessarily bad guys, just look at Dr. Heinz Doofenschmirtz... I, personally, identify as an evil scientist and don't appreciate being lumped in with Lin Davar) 

Here are some cooler stuff

Lin certainly demonstrates Balat's violence, Jushu's alcoholism, Wikim's sullenness and Shallan's warped view of reality... Should we be more hard on him and blame his genetics for the problems Shallan and her siblings have? I am only kidding a little bit...

Do you think the fact that Lin just never talked about the mother enabled Shallan's denial, or do you think that he tried to talk to Shallan about it and she just tuned him out? (This, I suppose, would be integral to figuring out if Shallan should shoulder some of the blame for these actions. At least in a court of law)

 

Also, I just think it is ironic that Thaidakar employs Lin Davar...

I think Thaidakar would murder him outright for what Lin did to his second wife and not give it a second thought.

(Mistborn spoiler)

Spoiler

Kelsier would kill Lin and his soldiers and maybe Shallan's brothers too, if they picked up weapons.

Kelsier killed noblemen for much less and for being much smaller parts of the problem... In fact, based on his logic, he would probably be considered part of the Lighteyes and if Kelsier were a darkeyes activist he would be trying to kill anyone who works for or with the Lighteyes...

Ergo Kelsier's logic dictates that he needs to be killed.

 

[Bort]

13 hours ago, Doomslug The Destroyer said:

I believe that he is overworked. Stressed. Obviously, this is true. But he copes with it in horrible, and I mean HORRIBLE ways.

Beating his children, reckless endangerment of his reputation, etc.

He deserves some pity, but not for everything.

Hey Doomslug, I love your avatar

I think this might be an oversimplification of Lin's behaviour. We know that the Davar household was under the influence of one of the Unmade, so who is to say that Lin would have reacted the same way if not for the Unmade?

I totally get where you're coming from, and under other circumstances would be there with you, but we do have this unknown entity doing something to mess up all their minds. We see how broken the Davar kids are, indeed, it's pointed out bluntly a few times, but that is never done with Lin. Brandon leaves out the damage done TO Lin to be overshadowed by the damage done BY Lin.

[Bort]

On 1/25/2022 at 2:58 PM, Frustration said:

Why would Odium want an old nobody from back country Vedanar who can barely fight?

I had a thought about this question, and I may have an answer for you. Forgive the slight RoW spoilers...

The new guards, staff, and quarries Lin "discovered," plus speculation from Shallan's point of view suggest that Lin Davar and the Ghostbloods were likely making a play for the throne of Jah Keved. That would put the corrupted Lin in charge of a country, giving Odium an immediate stronghold when the Desolation started.

On top of this, though, what else do we know about the Ghostbloods? Specifically, their leader. Who he is and what he is will, I suspect, play quite the role in the Cosmere's future, given his ambitions and all that. Odium having someone on the inside of the Ghostbloods could be one part of a bigger plan to let him keep an eye on Kelsier. Kelsier is, like Odium, Connected to a specific system and looking for a way around this restriction. Makes sense to keep an eye on an enemy who is pursuing the same goal you are.

Most of this is speculation, but it is speculation which makes sense to me.

Sorry for the double post.

[Medium]

10 hours ago, Bort said:

Hey Doomslug, I love your avatar

Aww thanks!!

10 hours ago, Bort said:

We know that the Davar household was under the influence of one of the Unmade, so who is to say that Lin would have reacted the same way if not for the Unmade?

This raises a few questions for me, as I was never informed/never caught on to the Unmade influence, so good point.

I'd like to see if it ever gets covered again