Are we treating Lin Davar fairly?

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

That's up to God to decide, not me.

Now, I have to judge on that sort of thing every now and again, but I try to be as fair as I can with it, my general rule of thumb is that if you have improved enough to know better, and not repeat the same mistakes then yes.

What, so if I blow up a planet then feel sorry about doing it and decide not to do it again, that makes it better?

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So if he isn't excused, why is it wrong to call him evil?

It's not. I am not arguing that Lin isn't evil. I am arguing that he is sympathetic evil. Can you agree that you feel bad for him? Is there a difference between him and Voldemort?

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

What, so if I blow up a planet then feel sorry about doing it and decide not to do it again, that makes it better?

As I said not for me to decide, now if I met someone who blew up a planet and had a "Oh crap what have I done?" moment with a legitamate change of heart, I would do my best to forgive them and treat them as I would anyone else.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It's not. I am not arguing that Lin isn't evil. I am arguing that he is sympathetic evil. Can you agree that you feel bad for him? 

Not really.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Is there a difference between him and Voldemort?

I don't see one.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Not really.

I don't see one.

Okay. Well I do. Thus there was an argument. Because I think that there is a big difference between Hitler and someone who killed a couple of people and abused his children.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

On 1/18/2022 at 2:46 PM, Frustration said:

being nuanced but evil is still being evil is it not?

A villain and a sympathetic villain are still both evil.  But I think we can still, at the very least, feel sympathetic to the villain based of the reason they do things. 

There is a difference between Voldemort, who does evil for purely selfish reasons, and Taravangian, who does evil because he believes he is saving the world.  Both are evil villains, but I can sympathize with Taravangian more for his reasons for doing things.

Sympathizing with a villain doesn't mean you condone everything they do, it just means that you recognize them as flawed humans (not some immutable evil entity).  Characters like Lin and Moash underwent great pain that molded them for the worse.  Did that pain force their hands to commit evil?  Of course not.  Both of them are accountable for their evil actions.  But I can still empathize with the pain they felt that lead them to their current selves.  Not everything is black and white.

Edited January 22, 2022 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Bort]

On 1/19/2022 at 0:13 AM, Frustration said:

Not really.

Would you still feel this way when you realised whose fault it is that Lin Davar turned "evil"?

As Pattern points out in WoR, Shallan doesn't need to use Soulcasting to enact change in people, she just needs to be "truth and lies," or in other words, herself. What happened to Shallan's mother and her "lover," was horrific, but it changed Lin for the worse because he chose to protect Shallan. Tell us, Frustration, is the act of protecting a child from something horrific the action of an evil person?

Then Lin realises what an untenable position he's in, everyone believes he's both a cuckold and a murderer. No-one supports him in anything he does, and he ends up involved with the Ghostbloods. Even to the point where his family have turned against him, and the only one of them that offers him even token support is the one person he should be blaming for all the troubles. And so, he changes. He becomes moodier, angrier, more prone to violent outbursts, until, as Shallan does so well, the lie becomes truth.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

Would you still feel this way when you realised whose fault it is that Lin Davar turned "evil"?

As Pattern points out in WoR, Shallan doesn't need to use Soulcasting to enact change in people, she just needs to be "truth and lies," or in other words, herself. What happened to Shallan's mother and her "lover," was horrific, but it changed Lin for the worse because he chose to protect Shallan. Tell us, Frustration, is the act of protecting a child from something horrific the action of an evil person?

Then Lin realises what an untenable position he's in, everyone believes he's both a cuckold and a murderer. No-one supports him in anything he does, and he ends up involved with the Ghostbloods. Even to the point where his family have turned against him, and the only one of them that offers him even token support is the one person he should be blaming for all the troubles. And so, he changes. He becomes moodier, angrier, more prone to violent outbursts, until, as Shallan does so well, the lie becomes truth.

Do you really believe that Shallan has passive mind control abilities?

He made his choices,  Shallan didn't make him do it, they were his decisions, he gets the consequences.

[Bort]

It's not passive mind control. It's the Surge of Transformation. You know, one of the fundamental forces powering Roshar?

I mean, you literally see it in action in Words of Radiance when she transforms a bunch of bandits and deserters into something more. Why do you have such a hard time believing this ability could go the other way too?

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Bort said:

It's not passive mind control. It's the Surge of Transformation. You know, one of the fundamental forces powering Roshar?

I mean, you literally see it in action in Words of Radiance when she transforms a bunch of bandits and deserters into something more. Why do you have such a hard time believing this ability could go the other way too?

Why do you believe that it takes away their choice in the matter?

[Bort]

The point I'm making isn't about removing their choices, it's about changing someone so the choices they make are not the ones they normally would.

Lin Davar was a man who would rather be thought of as a murderer, rather than let someone he loves, who committed the crime in question, suffer for it. Where's the evil here? His choice in this matter is about as far from evil as he can get. This is the choice that Shallan inspired, starting Lin down the road to becoming the murderer in truth.

How many movies are there about someone's family being killed, so the main protagonist goes a bit beserk and murders a bunch of people? How many of those movies depict the protagonist as evil?

Why is Lin Davar so different to them? He does some terrible things, all born out of a place of love, just like those "heroes" in the movies.

 

[Frustration]

33 minutes ago, Bort said:

How many movies are there about someone's family being killed, so the main protagonist goes a bit beserk and murders a bunch of people? How many of those movies depict the protagonist as evil?

Why is Lin Davar so different to them? He does some terrible things, all born out of a place of love, just like those "heroes" in the movies.

I don't care what the movies show.

34 minutes ago, Bort said:

The point I'm making isn't about removing their choices, it's about changing someone so the choices they make are not the ones they normally would.

Lin Davar was a man who would rather be thought of as a murderer, rather than let someone he loves, who committed the crime in question, suffer for it. Where's the evil here? His choice in this matter is about as far from evil as he can get. This is the choice that Shallan inspired, starting Lin down the road to becoming the murderer in truth.

After the night of her mother's attack, her bond with Testiment was severed, so she couldn't have made Lin act the way he did afterwards.

[Bort]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't care what the movies show.

After the night of her mother's attack, her bond with Testiment was severed, so she couldn't have made Lin act the way he did afterwards.

What you care or don't care about has nothing at all to do with the point I made. So, why do you view Lin Davar as being so different from the heroes in those movies that butcher loads of people?

And you seem to forget that Lin's choice was made right then and there, in the room, with the dead mother and "lover." Before Shallan broke her bond to Testament.

Also, I'd point out that she Transformed Lin, like the Surges say she can, so she did not force him to do anything.

Finally, the point I'd make about Testament is that we've ONLY seen Shallan's PoV for those parts of her life, and she's an unreliable witness because she literally has parts of herself locked away from her own mind.

[NameIess]

Just now, Bort said:

What you care or don't care about has nothing at all to do with the point I made. So, why do you view Lin Davar as being so different from the heroes in those movies that butcher loads of people?

And you seem to forget that Lin's choice was made right then and there, in the room, with the dead mother and "lover." Before Shallan broke her bond to Testament.

Also, I'd point out that she Transformed Lin, like the Surges say she can, so she did not force him to do anything.

Finally, the point I'd make about Testament is that we've ONLY seen Shallan's PoV for those parts of her life, and she's an unreliable witness because she literally has parts of herself locked away from her own mind.

Everyone can change anyone. People are forged by the circumstance. I doubt Shallan used soulcasting to change her father. Even if she did, that doesn't excuse him for his later actions. Now, whether the influence of an unmade excuses him is another story.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Bort said:

What you care or don't care about has nothing at all to do with the point I made. So, why do you view Lin Davar as being so different from the heroes in those movies that butcher loads of people?

Is this a discussion about them?

5 minutes ago, Bort said:

And you seem to forget that Lin's choice was made right then and there, in the room, with the dead mother and "lover." Before Shallan broke her bond to Testament.

He did not choose to abuse his children there.

He did not choose to kill his second wife there.

He did not choose to attempt to assassinate his eldest son there.

5 minutes ago, Bort said:

Also, I'd point out that she Transformed Lin, like the Surges say she can, so she did not force him to do anything.

If she didn't force him your point doesn't convince me of anything.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Frustration

[Bort]

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Is this a discussion about them?

He did not choose to abuse his children there.

He did not choose to kill his second wife there.

He did not choose to attempt to assassinate his eldest son there.

If she didn't force him your point doesn't convince me of anything.

Given how I was using them as a parallel to the point I was making, yes, they are at least relevant to the conversation. And you're still avoiding the question.

He made those choices... LATER. AFTER he became a different person. What's so difficult to understand here?

And once again, you miss the point. She didn't force him to do anything. She changed him from the type of person who would be willing to be known as a murderer in public just to protect his daughter, into someone who could have his son killed, and murder his wife.

They were HIS CHOICES, but he wouldn't have made them the way he did if it was not for Shallan and her influence on him. Or do you seriously think that someone who would go so far out of their way to protect their daughter as to become thought of as a murderer would really just kill his own family members for no good reason?

Lin's choices were his, but as I originally pointed out, he was well and truly broken. Should there be consequences for him for what he did? Yes. Should he carry all of the blame for what he did? No.

Given how you seem to so utterly disagree with me on this, maybe you could go into more detail about what you think, rather than just claim I'm wrong. If Lin was solely to blame for his actions, whi would he try to protect Shallan, but try to kill his son, and actually kill his second wife?

Edited January 24, 2022 by Bort

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Bort said:

Given how I was using them as a parallel to the point I was making, yes, they are at least relevant to the conversation. And you're still avoiding the question.

Given the hundreds of possible examples you could be drawing from you are being too vauge for me to make any sort of judgement here.

13 minutes ago, Bort said:

He made those choices... LATER. AFTER he became a different person. What's so difficult to understand here?

And once again, you miss the point. She didn't force him to do anything. She changed him from the type of person who would be willing to be known as a murderer in public just to protect his daughter, into someone who could have his son killed, and murder his wife.

They were HIS CHOICES, but he wouldn't have made them the way he did if it was not for Shallan and her influence on him. Or do you seriously think that someone who would go so far out of their way to protect their daughter as to become thought of as a murderer would really just kill his own family members for no good reason?

Explain to me using Cosmere terminology how Shallan did that.

14 minutes ago, Bort said:

Should he carry all of the blame for what he did? No.

Why not?

Was he mentally incabable of understanding? No.

15 minutes ago, Bort said:

Given how you seem to so utterly disagree with me on this, maybe you could go into more detail about what you think, rather than just claim I'm wrong. If Lin was solely to blame for his actions, whi would he try to protect Shallan, but try to kill his son, and actually kill his second wife?

Lin made choices, he is responsible for them.

[Bort]

Given the hundreds of possible examples... PROVING THE EXACT POINT I WAS MAKING. Pick ANY OF THEM. They ALL commit atrocities, ALL thinking they have some perfect reason for it, but in reality, they are ALL just murderers, as far as your logic goes, at least. Seems you disagree with every single writer in Hollywood. I'm not surprised you don't enjoy movies like that, as you would obviously dismiss the first 20-30 minutes of the movie, explaining why the crazy person is on a rampage.

And do you seriously need a Cosmere specific example of how one person can influence another? Do you not have friends? Family? Do they not influence you? Do you not influence them? How could this possibly come to pass?

Have YOU never made a choice that has backfired onto you and shown a number of unintended consequences? What about a choice that you KNOW will have negative consequences, but your only other option is to see someone you love suffer? How dark a place would it send you to knowing that you are suffering due to the actions of another, but also knowing you cannot do anything about it, because of how important that person is to you?

So, by your logic, ANYTHING you do is your fault, and no-one else's. What if, say, you're driving down the road, but have to swerve because some idiot pulls out in front of you, and you accidentally hit some poor passerby on the street? By your logic, you chose to turn that way, therefore it's your fault the passerby is hit.

To make that argument is idiocy, because you are saying that no-one can change the way you act or the decisions you make. That's very simply not true. Life proves this time and time again every single day.

Edit: Actually, you never did answer me earlier... Is the act of protecting your child from something horrific the act of an evil person?

Edited January 24, 2022 by Bort

[Frustration]

59 minutes ago, Bort said:

Given the hundreds of possible examples... PROVING THE EXACT POINT I WAS MAKING. Pick ANY OF THEM. They ALL commit atrocities, ALL thinking they have some perfect reason for it, but in reality, they are ALL just murderers, as far as your logic goes, at least. Seems you disagree with every single writer in Hollywood. I'm not surprised you don't enjoy movies like that, as you would obviously dismiss the first 20-30 minutes of the movie, explaining why the crazy person is on a rampage.

And what does that prove?

59 minutes ago, Bort said:

And do you seriously need a Cosmere specific example of how one person can influence another? Do you not have friends? Family? Do they not influence you? Do you not influence them? How could this possibly come to pass?

So it still his decision and Shallan changes nothing.

59 minutes ago, Bort said:

Have YOU never made a choice that has backfired onto you and shown a number of unintended consequences? What about a choice that you KNOW will have negative consequences, but your only other option is to see someone you love suffer? How dark a place would it send you to knowing that you are suffering due to the actions of another, but also knowing you cannot do anything about it, because of how important that person is to you?

Killing an innocent is wrong, it doesn't matter why you did it, if you know they were innocent and you killed them, you are evil. The why is irrelivent.

59 minutes ago, Bort said:

So, by your logic, ANYTHING you do is your fault, and no-one else's

Yes.

59 minutes ago, Bort said:

What if, say, you're driving down the road, but have to swerve because some idiot pulls out in front of you, and you accidentally hit some poor passerby on the street? By your logic, you chose to turn that way, therefore it's your fault the passerby is hit.

If you knew they were there when you swerved then yes, if you didn't, no.

59 minutes ago, Bort said:

To make that argument is idiocy, because you are saying that no-one can change the way you act or the decisions you make. That's very simply not true. Life proves this time and time again every single day.

People can influence you, but you bear responsibility. Always.

And please refrain from Ad Hominim.

59 minutes ago, Bort said:

Edit: Actually, you never did answer me earlier... Is the act of protecting your child from something horrific the act of an evil person?

One good deed a decade ago does not make up for a decade of horrible atrocities.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Frustration

[SomeRandomPeasant]

@Frustration I think there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here.  Nobody is saying that Lin is some anti-hero with a heart of gold.  We all agree that, by the end of his life, Lin was very much a bad guy.  The reason a lot of us slightly sympathize with Lin is the fact that he wasn't always bad.  As @Bort has been saying, he made at least one noble decision early in Shallan's life.  When Lin saw Shallan kill her mother and the other guy, he choose to take credit for the murder.  While Lin intended to protect his daughter, his decision backfired.  Everyone, his sons included, hated him for "murdering" his wife, despite the fact that Lin did nothing wrong.  Can you at least sympathize with Lin at this point in his life?

What came next was Lin's fault.  He allowed his shame, rage, and the hatred of others to mold him into a monster.  He abused his sons and killed his second wife.  Nobody is letting him off the hook for that.  We all know that he is responsible for his actions later in life.  But that doesn't mean we can't mourn the loss of what Lin used to be. 

If Kaladin chose to kill King Elhokar, and then he joined Moash in light eye killing spree, I would say that Kaladin has become a villain.  But I would still sympathize with Kaladin due to the sad events that led Kaladin to that point.  I would still feel sadness over the various abuses of Kaladin's life.  John Wayne Gacy was an evil murderer who was solely responsible for his own actions, but I can still feel bad about the abuse he suffered as a child.  Just because someone is evil doesn't mean you can't sympathize with the pain they suffered.

[danex]

*walks in*
*smacks WoB*

Spoiler

Questioner

Was Shallan's family, during her childhood, being influenced by an Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes.

Questioner

Was it the corrupting--

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that, but yes, there is some external influence there. 

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

*leaves*

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Dannnex said:

*walks in*
*smacks WoB*

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Was Shallan's family, during her childhood, being influenced by an Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes.

Questioner

Was it the corrupting--

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that, but yes, there is some external influence there. 

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

*leaves*

"I Burned the children of Rathalis. You may have influenced me but it was my choice." -Dalinar OB.

[danex]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

"I Burned the children of Rathalis. You may have influenced me but it was my choice." -Dalinar OB.

Hmmmm, good counter.

here's my thoughts
1. Lin could have been influenced by a different unmade
2. Lin could have been influenced to a much stronger degree
3. Dalinar might be treating himself too harshly in his self-judgement
4. Lin is a man of weaker caliber and might have not been able to resist the same amount of influence as Dalinar could have (but didn't). 

and then just to make my own stance on this more clear
I am on the side of "Lin's actions are definitely not justified, they were horrible. However, he should not be condemned for them as I doubt he had much agency at that time."

Edited January 24, 2022 by Dannnex
edited in point 4

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

"I Burned the children of Rathalis. You may have influenced me but it was my choice." -Dalinar OB.

A quote from someone who wasn't killed before being able to grow. Yes. Lin is evil. He did objectively wrong things. But the situation he was in, with influence from the unmade, everyone who should have supported him hating him, makes him more sympathetic than someone who did the same things just because he was always an obsessive psychopath. If Lin had killed his wife, would he be a worse person? Yes.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Dannnex said:

here's my thoughts
1. Lin could have been influenced by a different unmade

Oh definatly, Most likely Chemorish, though Dia-gonalthis isn't impossible, as opposed to Nergaoul.

3 minutes ago, Dannnex said:

2. Lin could have been influenced to a much stronger degree

I won't say that's impossible, but I doubt it.

3 minutes ago, Dannnex said:

3. Dalinar might be treating himself too harshly in his self-judgement

That's possible, but we have no way to say for sure, until Brandon weighs in, so I'm going to agree with Dalinar.

[Bort]

Anyone could argue that Dalinar is also evil, given the atrocities that he committed, so why aren't you out  there condemning everything he does, @Frustration?

What's the difference between Lin and Dalinar, other than Dalinar lived long enough to get a redemption arc?

Edit: And if you so freely admit Lin was being corrupted by one of the Unmade, how can you so easily condemn him as evil? Why do you doubt Lin could be corrupted as much as Dalinar? Come on, let's see some actual explanations instead of your usual single sentence lines making broad sweeping statements.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Bort

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Bort said:

Anyone could argue that Dalinar is also evil, given the atrocities that he committed, so why aren't you out  there condemning everything he does, @Frustration?

Where was Lin's redemption?

4 hours ago, Bort said:

What's the difference between Lin and Dalinar, other than Dalinar lived long enough to get a redemption arc?

Bingo

4 hours ago, Bort said:

Edit: And if you so freely admit Lin was being corrupted by one of the Unmade, how can you so easily condemn him as evil? Why do you doubt Lin could be corrupted as much as Dalinar? Come on, let's see some actual explanations instead of your usual single sentence lines making broad sweeping statements.

I have given you an actual explination, I doubt Lin was as influenced as Dalinar because Dalinar was the most influenced charater we have ever seen, and yet even then Dalinar still had free will.

So if you have free will, and are mentally capable of understanding your actions, you are responsible for them.

Having good motivation, or doing some good does not absolve a person from being evil, only a sincere change of heart, and repentance can do that.