Bort Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 On 7/6/2021 at 11:33 PM, Frustration said: That is unconfirmed. I don't know about you but I certainly judge him fairly. He's an evil man plain and simple. While not confirmed precisely, there is a scene in WoR where a distracted Adolin is finding it very difficult to maintain a summoned Shardblade when it's not in his hands. Adolin Kholin, quite possibly the best duelist in Alethkar, with years of training under his belt, couldn't maintain his Shardblade in training because he was bit distracted by the visit from Szeth the night before. If someone like Adolin had problems then, what makes you think Shallan could maintain Testament after going through that? Also, you don't judge him fairly if you just dismiss him as evil "plain and simple." He wasn't evil. He was broken. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) On 7/7/2021 at 5:52 AM, Dannnex said: Well she didn’t deadeye testament until after she killed her mom, so either way it wouldn’t be in the safe. We see her talking to Testament in Spren form when she breaks her bond, so there’s even more proof it disappeared. And we have no idea what deadeye-ing a spren “should” do. Where are you getting that from? A gemstone allows the blade to be bonded to a new person, it’s entirely possible for the radiant who killed the spren to keep the bond to the blade. That’s what we see happen, Shallan is still bonded to Testament. We've seen plenty of examples in Dalinar's vision about what happens when you "deadeye" a Spren. Also, it's confirmed by Navani in, I believe, Oathbringer that adding a gemstone to a "dead" Blade was what permitted it to be summoned and dismissed, not bonded. In one of Adolin's duels, he pulls out the gemstone and crushes it, but says it's unimportant and just symbolic. Here is a very good question though... Where is Testament now? We know where her deadeye version is... But where's her Blade? Edit: Sorry for the double post. Edited January 17, 2022 by Bort 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Bort said: While not confirmed precisely, there is a scene in WoR where a distracted Adolin is finding it very difficult to maintain a summoned Shardblade when it's not in his hands. Adolin Kholin, quite possibly the best duelist in Alethkar, with years of training under his belt, couldn't maintain his Shardblade in training because he was bit distracted by the visit from Szeth the night before. big difference between living and dead blades. 2 hours ago, Bort said: Also, you don't judge him fairly if you just dismiss him as evil "plain and simple." He wasn't evil. He was broken. He set up a dictatoship in his own house and repeatedly abused his children, and kiled his second wife in cold blood. Yes that is evil. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Bort said: While not confirmed precisely, there is a scene in WoR where a distracted Adolin is finding it very difficult to maintain a summoned Shardblade when it's not in his hands. Adolin Kholin, quite possibly the best duelist in Alethkar, with years of training under his belt, couldn't maintain his Shardblade in training because he was bit distracted by the visit from Szeth the night before. If someone like Adolin had problems then, what makes you think Shallan could maintain Testament after going through that? I believe where the disconnect is happening is when shardblades were first grabbed, they could not be dismissed. You had to carry a giant sword with you everywhere. There is WoB on that. It is affixing the gemstone that allows it to be bonded, and dismissed. So since Shallan did not affix a gemstone to bond to the blade, she could not have dismissed it. Though it could be said considering she is the original radiant that broke the oath, perhaps there is still semi a connection enough to dismiss it, avoiding that issue. (highlighted the pertinent portion of the WoB) Adontis I've always wondered, how do you determine where the line between "Word of Brandon" and "Read and Find Out" is? Has it ever caused issues where you've said something, but later that thing changed when it went into a book making your first statement now false? Thanks so much for writing as much as you do, I'm looking forward to all your upcoming books, keep up the great work! Brandon Sanderson Boy, this one is an art, not a science. I've several times said something that I later decided to change in a book. I've always got this idea in the back of my head that the books are canon, and things I say at signing aren't 100% canon. This is part because of a habit I have of falling back on things I decided years ago, then revised in notes after I realized they didn't work. My off-the-cuff instinct is still to go with what I had in my head for years, even when it's no longer canon. An example of this are Shardblades. In the first draft of TWoK in 2002, I had the mechanics of the weapons work in a specific way. (If you wanted to steal one from someone, you knock off the bonding gemstone, and it breaks the bond.) I later decided it was more dramatic if you couldn't steal a Shardblade that way--you had to kill the person or force them to relinquish the bond. It worked far better. But in Oathbringer, Peter had to remind me of that change, as I just kind of nonchalantly wrote into a scene a comment about knocking off a gemstone to steal a Shardblade. These things leak back in, as you might expect for a series I've been working on for some twenty years now--with lore being revised all along. So...short answer...yes, I've contradicted myself a number of times. I try very, very hard to let the books be the canon however. So you can default to them. As for what I answer and what I RAFO...it depends on how much I want to reveal at the moment, if I'm trying to preserve specific surprises, or if I just want people to focus on other things at the moment. Like I said, art and not science. damenleeturks In WoR, Navani muses to Dalinar about how the gemstones in the Blades could be the focus that allows the bond with the Blade to exist. If this theory is correct, it would follow that someone could damage that gemstone and thus be able to steal the Blade with it then having no intact bonding mechanism, right? I guess I'm having trouble seeing how the example you describe isn't possible. Peter Ahlstrom The gemstone is needed to create the bond and operate the bond's functions. If you remove the gemstone, the person the sword is bonded to can't summon it or dismiss it to mist. But neither can anyone else. If they eventually pop another gemstone in and try to bond it themselves, they will fail, and the original person can then resummon their Blade. The bond is with the dead spren of the Blade, not with the gemstone. The stone facilitates the bond. So, you can haul around a de-gemstoned Blade with you all the time and successfully steal it that way. But this makes it very easy to steal back. You'd have to kill the holder of the bond in order to rebond it. Which is no different from usual. And in general, if you can get close enough to a Shardbearer to steal their Blade, you are also close enough to kill them anyway. Phantine So that scene where Dalinar crushes the gemstone and hands the Shardblade over, he's also doing some sort of mystical de-bonding? Or is it just 'if you WANT to give it up, you gave it up'? Peter Ahlstrom Yes, if you want to give it up, you gave it up. Phantine If nobody is currently bonded to it, does the attuning still take a week? Otherwise it seems weird people would figure out putting a gemstone in hilt lets you summon it, since nothing would happen without a week of bonding time. ricree Not that weird. One of the books (WoK, I think) mentions that many years passed before the gemstone bonding was discovered. Shardblades were still really valuable, though, and even more vulnerable to theft, so it makes sense that people would have kept them close at hand long enough for the bonding process. Other than that, all you need is someone to accidentally decorate the blade correctly, which is something that took a long time to happen, but was probably bound to happen eventually considering how key infused gemstones are to the world. Peter Ahlstrom Well said. /r/fantasy AMA 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017) Edited January 17, 2022 by Pathfinder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 I think that we are treating Lin Davar unfairly. He is certainly not a good person, but he's not a pure evil monster either. I don't really feel anything other than pity for him. Despite the influence of the unmade, despite everyone, including the highprince, his wife, and even his own sons assuming he killed his own wife, he still lied to protect Shallan. Did he do evil? yes. Was his original love of Shallan twisted into something manipulative, controlling, and wrong by the end? Yes. But he still tried to protect her, sacrificed his reputation for her. So I have to give him some slack. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaRegia Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 4 hours ago, Pathfinder said: I believe where the disconnect is happening is when shardblades were first grabbed, they could not be dismissed. You had to carry a giant sword with you everywhere. There is WoB on that. It is affixing the gemstone that allows it to be bonded, and dismissed. So since Shallan did not affix a gemstone to bond to the blade, she could not have dismissed it. Though it could be said considering she is the original radiant that broke the oath, perhaps there is still semi a connection enough to dismiss it, avoiding that issue. (highlighted the pertinent portion of the WoB) Another VERY important difference between the Lost Radiants and Shallan: the Radiants of old and their spren jointly agreed to end their bonds. All the "normal" deadeye Shardblades we've seen were made by bonds being voluntarily and deliberately broken from both ends. Testament (from what we've seen) did NOT agree to break her bond with Shallan, and there is ample direct evidence in the text that that bond continued to exist, and still does. One obvious example is her last chapter in RoW - "Shallan had not one BUT TWO Shardblades." Nobody except Shallan ever had the ability to claim Testament. The TestamentBlade was NEVER in the safe; she spends the entirety of her time as a spren in Shadesmar, with the exception of the times Shallan summoned her again (to kill Tyn, for example). Regarding Lin... I can't agree with the classification of any person as "good" or "evil" - that's simplistic and honestly childish. Even the phrase "good people can do bad things" requires the postulate that "good people" exist. There are only people, and we are complex. Every choice we make might possibly be classified one way or another (although I doubt even that), but everyone is capable of making a good or bad choice each time. Lin Davar was in a position where he had to make some VERY difficult choices, and I do find him both flawed and sympathetic... as I think we ALL are. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocoa Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) The general consensus I've seen is that he was (became) a genuinely bad person who nonetheless was more complex than first presented and had some sympathetic streaks in his backstory. I think that's not an unfair assessment. Now, one thing I am admittedly curious about is whether and to what extent he was under the influence of an Unmade or similar force. We now know via WoB, for example, that his son Balat's cruelty towards and desire to maim small animals is being magically enhanced somehow. What if, then, Lin was under the same effect, and this caused or worsened his abusive tendencies? Thematically, I doubt it would be presented as his actions being entirely outside his agency; Balat manages to restrain his maimings to animals instead of people, for example, and a crucial part of Dalinar's arc is that even though the Thrill greatly influenced his actions he refuses to let Odium take responsibility for what he did. But I do think it would cast a different light on his behavior. Edited January 18, 2022 by Cocoa 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 20 hours ago, Frustration said: He set up a dictatoship in his own house and repeatedly abused his children, and kiled his second wife in cold blood. Yes that is evil. That is too simplistic a view of the situation. At first glance, Lin appears to be evil, for the reasons you've just mentioned. The bit you seem to be willfully ignoring is, becoming that person isn't entirely his fault. He witnesses his daughter kill his wife, with a Shardblade she shouldn't be able to possess, as well as the murder of his wife's lover (so far as the public knows - and we don't even know who killed him). Then because of that his life turns to hell, his reputation ruined, to the point where people are openly taking advantage of him without even bothering to hide the fact. Hence the drinking, hence the being loud and obnoxious, trying to hide from the ruins of his life, trying to pretend that all is ok. But no matter how hard he pretends, nothing is ok again, and there is nothing he can do to fix it, and so the downward spiral begins. The bitter broken man reaches the point where the abuse of his family isn't seen as abuse (by him), but rather frustration because he cannot escape the pit he's in, and yes, it led to him killing his second wife. Broken beyond repair, and being abandoned by the one person he thought he could rely upon, he snapped. A big part of the Stormlight Archives seems to be about people that are broken. We're certainly going to see some of those broken people do well for themselves. Mostly these people will become Radiants. But we're going to be seeing those that go in the opposite direction. People that break and instead of getting better, they get worse. Lin is one of these people. He deserves our pity, not our contempt. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 11 hours ago, Bort said: That is too simplistic a view of the situation. At first glance, Lin appears to be evil, for the reasons you've just mentioned. The bit you seem to be willfully ignoring is, becoming that person isn't entirely his fault. He witnesses his daughter kill his wife, with a Shardblade she shouldn't be able to possess, as well as the murder of his wife's lover (so far as the public knows - and we don't even know who killed him). Then because of that his life turns to hell, his reputation ruined, to the point where people are openly taking advantage of him without even bothering to hide the fact. Hence the drinking, hence the being loud and obnoxious, trying to hide from the ruins of his life, trying to pretend that all is ok. But no matter how hard he pretends, nothing is ok again, and there is nothing he can do to fix it, and so the downward spiral begins. The bitter broken man reaches the point where the abuse of his family isn't seen as abuse (by him), but rather frustration because he cannot escape the pit he's in, and yes, it led to him killing his second wife. Broken beyond repair, and being abandoned by the one person he thought he could rely upon, he snapped. A big part of the Stormlight Archives seems to be about people that are broken. We're certainly going to see some of those broken people do well for themselves. Mostly these people will become Radiants. But we're going to be seeing those that go in the opposite direction. People that break and instead of getting better, they get worse. Lin is one of these people. He deserves our pity, not our contempt. Dalinar trusted his wife, and got betrayed almost died and lost a lot of men because of it. So he burned an entire city to the ground because of it, yet that is demonstrably evil. It doesn't matter that Lin was in a bad spot, he chose his actions, he knew what he was doing, and chose to do it anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: Dalinar trusted his wife, and got betrayed almost died and lost a lot of men because of it. So he burned an entire city to the ground because of it, yet that is demonstrably evil. It doesn't matter that Lin was in a bad spot, he chose his actions, he knew what he was doing, and chose to do it anyway. No one is arguing that Lin's actions were justified. Only that he is sympathetic despite his evil actions, because of the context of those actions. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Nameless said: No one is arguing that Lin's actions were justified. Only that he is sympathetic despite his evil actions, because of the context of those actions. So why is there an argument? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: So why is there an argument? Because you say that Lin Davar is evil, and seem to be saying that there is no nuance in his story at all. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: Because you say that Lin Davar is evil, and seem to be saying that there is no nuance in his story at all. being nuanced but evil is still being evil is it not? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: being nuanced but evil is still being evil is it not? Yes, but saying that someone is evil is very different from saying that someone is nuanced but evil. One of them brings to mind Sadeas, and the other brings to mind anything from (Elantris) Spoiler Hrathen to Taravangian. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 3 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yes, but saying that someone is evil is very different from saying that someone is nuanced but evil. One of them brings to mind Sadeas, and the other brings to mind Taravangian. I fail to see a difference between them. 3 minutes ago, Nameless said: (Elantris) Reveal hidden contents Hrathen Why was he included? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, Frustration said: I fail to see a difference between them. "Evil" brings to mind extremely hateable characters the likes of Umbridge, Amaram, and Sadeas. "Nuanced evil" brings to mind, to me at least, anywhere from characters like Darth Vader, who sort of redeem themselves, to characters like Taravangian, who does the wrong things for the sort-of-right reasons, towards a sort-of-right eventual goal. 13 minutes ago, Frustration said: Why was he included? Because (Elantris) Spoiler Hrathen has done objectively evil things. He caused a bloody revolt that resulted in many deaths. Although he did have a change of heart at the end of his life, preventing more deaths, does that change the fact that for most of his life he was evil? Probably, but some people "could" argue that it does not. I'm not saying that Hrathen and Lin are equal, but that Hrathen is at the extreme end of nuanced evil. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 7 minutes ago, Nameless said: "Evil" brings to mind extremely hateable characters the likes of Umbridge, Amaram, and Sadeas. "Nuanced evil" brings to mind, to me at least, anywhere from characters like Darth Vader, who sort of redeem themselves, to characters like Taravangian, who does the wrong things for the sort-of-right reasons, towards a sort-of-right eventual goal. Taravangian does whatever it takes to save the world sadeas did whatever it took to save Alethkar I don't see a difference. 8 minutes ago, Nameless said: Because (Elantris) Reveal hidden contents Hrathen has done objectively evil things. He caused a bloody revolt that resulted in many deaths. Although he did have a change of heart at the end of his life, preventing more deaths, does that change the fact that for most of his life he was evil? Probably, but some people "could" argue that it does not. I'm not saying that Hrathen and Lin are equal, but that Hrathen is at the extreme end of nuanced evil. Elantris Spoiler He didn't intend for a bloody revelution, it just spiraled out of his control 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: Taravangian does whatever it takes to save the world sadeas did whatever it took to save Alethkar I don't see a difference. Sadeas was a thrill addict who wanted to "save Alethkar" by taking control by force, so that he could start a war with other countries. He treats his underlings with contempt, callously throwing away lives. He wanted power, not to protect Alethkar. If he wanted to protect Alethkar, he would have supported the king, not fought against him. Taravangian only wants to save the world, he feels guilty about his actions, he treats those around him with respect, and he only kills the people he thinks he needs to kill in order to save more. Elantris: Spoiler Did he? I thought he did it on purpose. Huh. Well, I guess he might be more in the category of "good person who did bad things". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Nameless said: Sadeas was a thrill addict who wanted to "save Alethkar" by taking control by force, so that he could start a war with other countries. He treats his underlings with contempt, callously throwing away lives. He wanted power, not to protect Alethkar. If he wanted to protect Alethkar, he would have supported the king, not fought against him. Taravangian only wants to save the world, he feels guilty about his actions, he treats those around him with respect, and he only kills the people he thinks he needs to kill in order to save more. Taravangian wants more then to save the world, he wants to be the one to do it, he activly avoids giving Dalinar information because he wants to be the hero. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: Taravangian wants more then to save the world, he wants to be the one to do it, he activly avoids giving Dalinar information because he wants to be the hero. Yes, but he also wants to save the world. As I said, doing to wrong thing for the sort-of-right reasons for a sort-of-right goal. Besides, this is irrelevant. All I'm saying is that either the world has things such as nuanced evil, or there is no good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Nameless said: either the world has things such as nuanced evil, or there is no good. Why do you say that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Why do you say that? Everyone does or has done evil things for evil reasons. If you don't allow exceptions for extenuating circumstances, then there are no "good" people in the world. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 19, 2022 Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, Nameless said: Everyone does or has done evil things for evil reasons. If you don't allow exceptions for extenuating circumstances, then there are no "good" people in the world. Only if there is no form of redeption. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 19, 2022 Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Frustration said: Only if there is no form of redeption. True, but what is that redemption? doing good things? Is Darth Vader a good person at the end of Return of the Jedi? Does saving his son make up for blowing up a planet? No. It makes him a more sympathetic and nuanced bad person, but does not change the evil things that he did. Lin Davar is an evil person, but he had good intentions that were twisted by the unmade. Does this excuse him? no. Does this make him pitiable and sympathetic? maybe. Edited January 19, 2022 by Nameless 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 19, 2022 Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: True, but what is that redemption? doing good things? That's up to God to decide, not me. Now, I have to judge on that sort of thing every now and again, but I try to be as fair as I can with it, my general rule of thumb is that if you have improved enough to know better, and not repeat the same mistakes then yes. 2 minutes ago, Nameless said: Lin Davar is an evil person, but he had good intentions that were twisted by the unmade. Does that excuse him? no. Does this make him pitiable and sympathetic? maybe. So if he isn't excused, why is it wrong to call him evil? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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