Are we treating Lin Davar fairly?

[+Oltux72]

OK, somebody has to say it. We do not.

The man took the blame for killing his wife. He did so, because it was the only way to keep his daughter alive. He kept the Blade that would have been his salvation hidden all those years. And he could presumably have taken it. The Testament-Blade had no gemstone. Yes, he ruled his estates tyrannically, but what were his options? His reputation was permanently shot. He was operating at an economic disadvantage. He did not behave in a manner acceptable to modern liberal sensibilities, but he was a Veden aristocrat, not a modern liberal. Seeking advantageous marriages for his children was one of the few options left to him.

What were his options? Telling his sons that their sister killed their mother with an inexplicable Shardblade? That would have worked really well.

[LuckyJim]

Uh, what about the women he murdered and all the abuse of his sons?

[+Oltux72]

7 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

Uh, what about the women he murdered and all the abuse of his sons?

I am not saying that he was a saint. He murdered servants. Though again, we do not have his side. For example, some may have been spies.

But he has been nominated for titles like worst father of all time. And there is the question of what you do expect between sons who think their father killed their mother and him? Did anybody ever nominate Shallan's mother for the title of greatest traitor who got a much easier death than she deserved?

[LuckyJim]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But he has been nominated for titles like worst father of all time. And there is the question of what you do expect between sons who think their father killed their mother and him?

I mean I don’t think that justifies abuse.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Did anybody ever nominate Shallan's mother for the title of greatest traitor who got a much easier death than she deserved?

I don’t know, but we never got her side of the story, would that really be fair to her?

[danex]

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And he could presumably have taken it. The Testament-Blade had no gemstone.

Shallan didn’t have the training needed to keep the blade manifested, it disappeared almost immediately after it was put inside the safe. 

[RedBlue]

Let’s not forget that Lin Davar did murder his second wife because he found out that she was planning to leave him. He may not always have been the monster everyone thought he was, but he absolutely became that monster by the end. 

[Malim]

I have always had... a soft spot I guess, for Lin Davar.  Yes, he was a despicable person who did terrible things, but in a way I feel that I understand him.  To me, he is one of, if not the most, tragic character in the Cosmere.

His fall started with one of the most selfless acts I can think of: his defense of his daughter.  He basically walked in on his wife and her friend trying to kill Shallan.  He fought against them, and was wounded.  He still fought, and probably would have fought to the death if Shallan hadn't summoned Testament and ended things.  When she did, what was his response?  He cradled her, tried to soothe her, hid her actions, and most importantly took the blame.  Not only from society as a whole, but also from Shallan's brothers.  What is more, he kept her secret about being a Shardbearer safe to prevent her from being targeted again.  He didn't even try to claim the Shardblade, or get Shallan to use it again when to do so would have made his own social position secure.  Even at the end, he kept those secrets safe.

What was his reward for doing what any good father would do?  He became reviled by everyone, including his own family.  He bore that to his death, and never tried to explain what really happened.  The closest he came was with Helaran when he told him that "you don't know what you think you know."  That broke him and let Odium in through the cracks.  He became filled with hatred, and fell.

And yet, even when he fell, he felt remorse and sorrow.  He tells Shallan so when she met Hoid for the first time, and frankly I believe him.  He knew that he had fallen, and he regretted it deeply.  And yet, the one thing that he could have done to get some modicum of respectability back from others, namely betraying Shallan, he never did, or even considered.

Of all the characters who deserves a redemption arc, he tops my list.  He deserved it more than Roshone, more than Moash, more than even Dalinar in a way.  He didn't get one, and the irony is that the person who ended that possibility was the person who he gave up everything for.  As a father who likes to think that I would be as much of a defender of my daughters, this is the ultimate tragedy.

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Malim

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Danex said:

Shallan didn’t have the training needed to keep the blade manifested, it disappeared almost immediately after it was put inside the safe. 

That is unconfirmed.

 

I don't know about you but I certainly judge him fairly.

He's an evil man plain and simple.

[Karger]

While we eventually realize that it is possible for good people to do bad things it is much harder for us to get our heads around the idea of bad people doing good things.  Understanding that good people make mistakes, have bad days, possess blind spots, and are capable of anger and viciousness is an important part of growing up.  On the other hand it is very easy to simply right off someone bad as incapable of doing good or treat their good deeds as somehow incidental.  Lin Davar might have been faced with tragic circumstances but abuse is always a choice and he engaged in it regularly.  The fact that he was a person who was capable of love and compassion does not change the fact that he was a human dumpster. 

[danex]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is unconfirmed.

I think it’s stated rather explicitly in RoW

it talks about how the “glowing light” that she saw coming from the safe was a figment of her imagination, just an artifact of her trauma, and how the safe was actually empty. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Danex

[Jondesu]

13 minutes ago, Danex said:

I think it’s stated rather explicitly in RoW

it talks about how the “glowing light” that she saw coming from the safe was a figment of her imagination, just an artifact of her trauma, and how the safe was actually empty. 

Shallan is the epitome of the the unreliable narrator trope, though. She could theoretically be wrong or lying to us/herself. I don’t personally think that’s the case here, just pointing out that her viewpoints may not be useful as proof.

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, Danex said:

Shallan didn’t have the training needed to keep the blade manifested, it disappeared almost immediately after it was put inside the safe. 

This is one of the things I do not understand. Why would she need training? She deadeyed Testament. That should lead to an immediate manifestation until you affix a gemstone.

[danex]

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

This is one of the things I do not understand. Why would she need training? She deadeyed Testament. That should lead to an immediate manifestation until you affix a gemstone.

Well she didn’t deadeye testament until after she killed her mom, so either way it wouldn’t be in the safe. We see her talking to Testament in Spren form when she breaks her bond, so there’s even more proof it disappeared.

And we have no idea what deadeye-ing a spren “should” do. Where are you getting that from?

A gemstone allows the blade to be bonded to a new person, it’s entirely possible for the radiant who killed the spren to keep the bond to the blade. That’s what we see happen, Shallan is still bonded to Testament. 

[+Oltux72]

16 minutes ago, Danex said:

Well she didn’t deadeye testament until after she killed her mom, so either way it wouldn’t be in the safe. We see her talking to Testament in Spren form when she breaks her bond, so there’s even more proof it disappeared.

And we have no idea what deadeye-ing a spren “should” do. Where are you getting that from?

Featherstone Keep

16 minutes ago, Danex said:

A gemstone allows the blade to be bonded to a new person, it’s entirely possible for the radiant who killed the spren to keep the bond to the blade. That’s what we see happen, Shallan is still bonded to Testament. 

If you follow that thought you are saying that the Radiants who dropped their Blades during the Recreance let all those people kill each other.

[Aspiring Writer]

I will say that Lin Davar is sympathetic for the fact we know the decision that started a downward spiral for him and everyone around him. His actions taken after, the abuse of servants and his children, the cruelty he had displayed, is not justified, but is understandable, as in we understand what made him become like this and feel pity, that in trying to defend his daughter, taking the blame for the murder of his wife, a very noble act, ended up turning him into a monster.

He as a person is sympathetic, in a pitiful way. His actions aren't.

[danex]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

If you follow that thought you are saying that the Radiants who dropped their Blades during the Recreance let all those people kill each other.

those radiants deadeyed their spren and then also broke their bond to the (now dead) blades

[+Oltux72]

12 minutes ago, Danex said:

those radiants deadeyed their spren and then also broke their bond to the (now dead) blades

Forgive me for saying so, but that looks almost like a contradiction to me. We know that the phenomen of deadeyes was new. They could not even have known that there was a connection left, let alone known how to break it, nor would they have known how to deal with a surprising utterly new phenomenon without discussion.

[+robardin]

19 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Let’s not forget that Lin Davar did murder his second wife because he found out that she was planning to leave him. He may not always have been the monster everyone thought he was, but he absolutely became that monster by the end. 

He was clearly under the thumb of an Unmade by then - likely the same Unmade that turned Gavilar into the cold, domineering man we saw in the RoW prologue,  with a cold fury, obsessed with being OBEYED and with building some great legacy.

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, Danex said:

those radiants deadeyed their spren and then also broke their bond to the (now dead) blades

Yes that's how you make deadeyes.

[+Harrycrapper]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Forgive me for saying so, but that looks almost like a contradiction to me. We know that the phenomen of deadeyes was new. They could not even have known that there was a connection left, let alone known how to break it, nor would they have known how to deal with a surprising utterly new phenomenon without discussion.

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes that's how you make deadeyes.

There's an argument to be made whether Shallan is still Bonded to Testament following her death, though it leads to the nature of Shallan's Bond which is a topic that's been and being beaten to death elsewhere. But, the Shardblade wouldn't be in the safe anyways because Shallan went to the garden and killed Testament there. If the Shardblade was left in the Physical Realm like the ones in Dalinar's vision, it would have been there. 

 

[LuckyJim]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

He was clearly under the thumb of an Unmade by then - likely the same Unmade that turned Gavilar into the cold, domineering man we saw in the RoW prologue,  with a cold fury, obsessed with being OBEYED and with building some great legacy.

Hasn’t it been pointed out again and again, both in universe and out, that being under Odium’s influence is not an excuse for one’s actions?

[+Harrycrapper]

7 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

Hasn’t it been pointed out again and again, both in universe and out, that being under Odium’s influence is not an excuse for one’s actions?

I'd say for most people with respect to Stormlight, this works in reverse to that line from the Dark Knight "you either die the hero, or live long enough to become the villain." In the case of people being influenced by Odium "you either die the villain, or live long enough to become a redeemed hero." 

At least, from what I can tell, the main difference between Dalinar/Kaladin and Amaram/Lin Davar is that Dalinar/Kaladin decided to reject Odium and Amaram/Lin Davar decided to accept Odium or did not take opportunities to change. That isn't to say that they couldn't be redeemed, but their stories ended with them being villains, and that will shape readers perceptions of them regardless of whether it's fair. 

[+robardin]

4 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

Hasn’t it been pointed out again and again, both in universe and out, that being under Odium’s influence is not an excuse for one’s actions?

Why not? Be sensible. If Odium drove him to do this, influenced him, then really, It wasn't completely his fault. Besides, he was no more than a product of his upbringing, his Vorin culture. All you have to do is accept that it was Odium's fault, and give him -- Ahhh.... Right...

But you see, it is easy and seductive to do that, yes? Even Gavilar seemed to have been falling under that influence, who was also a nascent Bondsmith (even as Dalinar came very close to falling to Odium, despite being a Bondsmith of the Second Ideal). So no, it's not an excuse per se, reason to "give him a pass", but I would say is a reason for pity. We cannot say that we ourselves would be any stronger in withstanding an Unmade's influence his place, and he began with the best of intentions - he took on a lot of pain, mistrust, and suspicion onto his shoulders for Shallan's sake, and even under the Unmade's influence, despite all the other evils he ended up doing, he never betrayed that secret.

[+Oltux72]

On 6.7.2021 at 10:54 PM, RedBlue said:

Let’s not forget that Lin Davar did murder his second wife because he found out that she was planning to leave him. He may not always have been the monster everyone thought he was, but he absolutely became that monster by the end. 

I shot the sheriff, but I didn't shoot no deputy ...

Isn't blaming him for things in addition to what he did still unfair?

[Bnaya]

Sorry for the resurrection of that thread:) 

I agree with @robardin that he was under Unmade's influence. And I think we should read Unmade's influence in most cases like Turnings in WoT, when those strong enough can resist it (like Logain) and those not strong enough (like almost all others) should be considered under compulsive influence and be judged in accordance to it. In Stormlight, we cannot judge the Alethi and Vedens because the influence of the Thrill (there are some leeway in that statement because it seems that they can choose sometimes, and it seems Sadeas can choose). And cannot judge the people of Kholinar who succumb to Ashertmarn. We CAN judge Amaram and his soldiers, and Aesudan because they chose to be the nasty people they were even before the Thrill and the Voidspren took them. And in Amaram and Aesudan case I even think thay WERE strong enough to resist but chose otherwise. In Moash situation I don't think he was even influenced by unmade, he just chose to be free of his conscience. And if Kaladin was turning to Odium side, I think we could blame him too, because it's a matter of choice for him. The same for Dalinar the Latter. I think that early Dalinar don't have the power to resist. That is questionable, because it seems that he judge himself on his actions then.

That's according to what I remember of the books. I could be wrong obviously. 

Apoint to Lin Davar credit, shallan thought about him in WoR chapter 45:

"Shallan could remember a time when she’d rarely, if ever, seen him angry."

So it was all after the incidence with shallan's mother. Can be just him reacting wring and not an unmade, guess we'll learn more as we learn about shallan's past.