Timing of events on Scadrial and Roshar

[stormwallsurfer]

Do we know how the timing lines up on Scadrial and Roshar? In TWOK Demoux is seen worldhopping on Roshar, meaning the non-flashback events we've seen on Roshar must occur after but within decades of the Final Ascension on Scadrial. In Mistborn Secret History, Kelsier only learns of worldhopping around the time of the Catacendre. He is widely theorized to be Thaidakar, but the Ghostbloods have presumably been operating for decades on Roshar. When did Kelsier establish the Ghostbloods? Also, Demoux followed Kelsier in life, later becoming one of the founders of and most dedicated adherent to Survivalism. What are the chances that he became a worldhopper but NOT a member of the Ghostbloods?

I assume this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything written on it. Have I made some faulty assumptions?

Thanks!

[ScadrianTank]

2 minutes ago, stormwallsurfer said:

In TWOK Demoux is seen worldhopping on Roshar, meaning the non-flashback events we've seen on Roshar must occur after but within decades of the Final Ascension on Scadrial

The first half of Stormlight takes place about ten years before the Wax and Wayne series - around 300 years after the Catacandre. Meaning that Kelsier had a little less than that to establish the Ghostbloods because he arrived at the south 10 to 20 years after the Final Ascension. 

Quote

Greg Ellner

When does the Wax and Wayne series take place compared to The Stormlight Archive?

Brandon Sanderson

Just after.

Greg Ellner

Thank you! So after Stormlight 10, then comes The Alloy of Law? I have noticed a change in Hoid in these books since.

Brandon Sanderson

Alloy is somewhere after Stormlight 5.

General Twitter 2015 (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

[stormwallsurfer]

Thanks!

Is there any speculation on how Demoux is so long-lived?  

[+Bzhydack]

14 minutes ago, stormwallsurfer said:

Is there any speculation on how Demoux is so long-lived?  

Worldhoppers have some time-dilatation trick due to fact Time and Space works differently in Cognitive Realm.

[+mdross81]

24 minutes ago, stormwallsurfer said:

Do we know how the timing lines up on Scadrial and Roshar? In TWOK Demoux is seen worldhopping on Roshar, meaning the non-flashback events we've seen on Roshar must occur after but within decades of the Final Ascension on Scadrial. In Mistborn Secret History, Kelsier only learns of worldhopping around the time of the Catacendre. He is widely theorized to be Thaidakar, but the Ghostbloods have presumably been operating for decades on Roshar. When did Kelsier establish the Ghostbloods? Also, Demoux followed Kelsier in life, later becoming one of the founders of and most dedicated adherent to Survivalism. What are the chances that he became a worldhopper but NOT a member of the Ghostbloods?

I assume this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything written on it. Have I made some faulty assumptions?

Thanks!

@ScadrianTank is correct about where Wax & Wayne fits in with the timeline on Roshar.

In terms of when the events of MB Era 1 took place, I think you have to adjust for the fact that years are not quite the same length on Roshar and Scadrial. We know W&W takes place just after SA 5 and that it's roughly 341 years post-Catacendre. Assuming that SA 5 actually ends around the time of the contest of champions (1175) and assuming earth-like years for Scadrial, and converting to the 20 hr days and 500 day years on Roshar, that places the end of MB Era 1 around the year 877 on Roshar. (341 Scadrian years converts to 298.716 Rosharan years)

Extrapolating back the 1,024 or so Scadrian years that the Lord Ruler was in power before the events of MB Era 1 (and again converting) and you can place the LR's Ascension around the year -20 on Roshar.

[stormwallsurfer]

Wow thanks! I really appreciate the prompt replies. It helps me get some inter-series contextual footing

[Halyo_Alex]

16 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Worldhoppers have some time-dilatation trick due to fact Time and Space works differently in Cognitive Realm.

Also! It may be that the Ghostbloods use some Cadmium mistings to help with that, once Cadmium's allomantic effect was discovered. Have a cadmium misting and some fellow Ghostbloods stand in a room together, maybe even nicro-burst the cadmium misting, depending on the desired result. With a precisely measured dose of Cadmium, you can predict the time when the bubble will run out, and so easily jump to specific dates.

[+mdross81]

8 minutes ago, stormwallsurfer said:

Wow thanks! I really appreciate the prompt replies. It helps me get some inter-series contextual footing

You’re welcome.

Cosmere spoilers are allowed here, but just in case you haven’t read Warbreaker, I’ll hide this next bit. 
 

Spoiler

If we ever get Khriss’s Nalthis essay it will go a long way toward placing the events of Warbreaker in relation to the Rosharan timeline. Including at least a range of when a certain grouchy swordmaster may have arrived.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Something also worth noting is that Demoux is an atium Misting. It's possible that medallion tech could be used to let him Compound his youth. (I don't think this is likely, mind, just an idea worth putting out there.)

[mathiau]

On 02/07/2021 at 5:27 PM, mdross81 said:

You’re welcome.

Cosmere spoilers are allowed here, but just in case you haven’t read Warbreaker, I’ll hide this next bit. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

If we ever get Khriss’s Nalthis essay it will go a long way toward placing the events of Warbreaker in relation to the Rosharan timeline. Including at least a range of when a certain grouchy swordmaster may have arrived.

 

WoBs implies it's after Era 1

[+mdross81]

On 7/4/2021 at 8:26 AM, mathiau said:

WoBs implies it's after Era 1

You're right. Brandon has been consistent in WoBs that MB Era 1 takes place before Warbreaker. I caught something during my current OB reread that I guess gives us some outer bounds on when Warbreaker takes place relative to events on Roshar.

We know that Adolin trained with Zahel in his youth. But Adolin, Evi and Renarin were out on campaign with Dalinar from 1155-1163. Then in OB 66, which takes place in 1163, we're told:

Quote

The time was approaching when Adolin would go to spend part of the year in Kholinar, to drill with the swordmasters and receive formal training in diplomacy.

So the earliest Adolin could have trained with Zahel is some time in 1163. That also sort of functions as roughly the latest point in time at which Zahel could have arrived on Roshar. And since WB happens between MB era 1 and WoK, that places the events of WB sometime between 877 (which I explain above is roughly when HoA concludes) and 1163. Frankly 1163 is probably way too late because there needs to be time for Vasher to have had whatever adventures he had with Nightblood post-WB, including time to piss off Vivenna, get to Roshar, figure out how to sustain himself using Stormlight, and become an ardent swordmaster. So we can definitely shave a few years off, but without knowing more concretely, we can use 1160 as an outer bound. So to use nice round numbers, the events of WB take place sometime roughly between the Rosharan years 880 and 1160.

I found an older thread where someone was putting together a cosmere timeline and claimed to have seen a WoB at some point that said that WB was closer in time to WoK than it was to MB Era 1. I haven't been able to find this WoB, but if true, that would shrink the window for WB to between 1,020 and 1160.

The cool thing about narrowing this down is that it also gives us ranges for the creation of Nightblood and Vasher's previous travels to Roshar. We know that Vasher and Shashara based Nightblood off of Shardblades, and that Nightblood was created around the time of the Manywar. So their earlier travels to Roshar must have occurred prior to the Manywar, which occurred roughly 300 Nalthian years before the events of WB. Since we're still not sure the duration of a Nalthian year relative to a Rosharan one, we have to guesstimate. But conservatively assuming that 300 Nalthian years convert to somewhere between 250-350 Rosharan years, then we can place the Manywar and Nightblood's creation somewhere between 530-910 (or 670-910 if WB is indeed closer in time to WoK than it is to MB Era 1).

We also know from WB that Vo, the first Returned, was Returned roughly 300 Nalthian years prior to the Manywar. So using the same conservative conversion range, the earliest Vo could have Returned was the Rosharan year 180 (or 320 if WB is closer in time to WoK than MB Era 1). Since Vasher must have been Returned later than that date, that gives us a not-super-narrow range of 180-910 for Vasher's previous visit to Roshar. (If anyone knows whether we have a sense of how long after Vasher Returned Nightblood was created, let me know, as that would narrow things further.)

While not very precise, we do at least know that Vasher's earlier visit to Roshar took place well after the False Desolation, the imprisonment of BAM, and the Recreance. Which means that Vasher would likely only have encountered deadeye Shardblades during his visit.

That is unless he ended up coming into contact with Nale or another Skybreaker with a living Blade. Just imagine cockier Five-Scholar-era Vasher meeting crazy-ass Nale. That's a scene I want to see.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 7/8/2021 at 4:00 PM, mdross81 said:

I caught something during my current OB reread that I guess gives us some outer bounds on when Warbreaker takes place relative to events on Roshar.

Nice catches

A relevant WoB to this:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before [Way of Kings], right now.  However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020)

That's still preeeeeeetty vague, though.

Edited July 10, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+mdross81]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

A relevant WoB to this:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before [Way of Kings], right now.  However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020)

Thanks. Hadn’t seen this one. If WB is indeed closer in time to WoK than MB era 1, and this WoB remains true, then we can narrow the events of WB to between 1020 and 1120 (assuming 20 years per generation and 2 generations).

[+Oltux72]

You can also constrain dates based on Threnody. Both Rhythm of War and The Ghastly Gondola have Threnodite technology unavailable in Silence in the Forests of Hell while Secret History strongly implies that it took place before the Evil arrived.

You have to fit the whole hstory of Threnody between the arrival of the Forescouts and the development of these new technologies between Hero of Ages and Oathbringer, which shows the silver dagger.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Both Rhythm of War and The Ghastly Gondola have Threnodite technology unavailable in Silence in the Forests of Hell

I think it's worth noting we've seen only a tiny piece of Threnody, and not a particularly Cosmere mechanics-aware segment at that.

[mathiau]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You can also constrain dates based on Threnody. Both Rhythm of War and The Ghastly Gondola have Threnodite technology unavailable in Silence in the Forests of Hell while Secret History strongly implies that it took place before the Evil arrived.

I don't see why you say Shadows for Silence happened before the Evil arrived, aren't both the Evil and the Shades consequences of Ambition's death?

[+Oltux72]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't see why you say Shadows for Silence happened before the Evil arrived, aren't both the Evil and the Shades consequences of Ambition's death?

I see. I formulated that ambiguously. I said that Secret History is very likely to have taken place before the Evil arrived.

[Light In the Darkness]

I don’t know that Threnody helps us much here. Prior to the Evil arriving on Threnody, there may have been great technology created. The kind of disaster and decline that the Evil would have caused when it arrived, with the shades and all, could very well have destroyed or obscured that technology and/or Cosmere awareness on Threnody, while any technology that had already left the planet/system could have stayed in use by the Ghostbloods, IRE, or the Seventeenth Shard. Granted, it’s been a bit since I’ve read Shadows for Silence or Oathbringer and I don’t remember recognizing Threnodian technology in Oathbringer or The Ghastly Gondola, so I may be wrong, but I don’t think the technology standards of Threnody are much indication of time when they experienced such a large disaster, likely the equivalent of a desolation in terms of technological destruction.

[mathiau]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I see. I formulated that ambiguously. I said that Secret History is very likely to have taken place before the Evil arrived.

The Ire mentioned the Shades so I still don't see it

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

The Ire mentioned the Shades so I still don't see it

As did Nazriloff. But those Shades were generated in a ritualized manner (human sacrifice?) and used under full control as an army.

[+Bzhydack]

14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I see. I formulated that ambiguously. I said that Secret History is very likely to have taken place before the Evil arrived.

Evil was consequrnce of Odium splintering Ambition in Threnodite System, and this happened before Odium arrived on Roshar - so more than 7000 Years before Secret History.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Evil was consequrnce of Odium splintering Ambition in Threnodite System, and this happened before Odium arrived on Roshar - so more than 7000 Years before Secret History.

The problem is Nazriloff. His remark about the proper rituals would make no sense.

Secondly, Silence in the Forests of Hell would have to take place centuries before Elantris. Where are the Threnodites? By the time of Secret History the Ire needs to guard the Threnodite border. Yet by the time of Era 2, which takes place over three centuries later, Threnody has vanished from the political board.

Yes. The Evil is a consequence of Ambition's demise. But not an immediate consequence.

[mathiau]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

As did Nazriloff. But those Shades were generated in a ritualized manner (human sacrifice?) and used under full control as an army.

The ones the Ire was talking about seemed mindless, contrarily to the ones Naz was talking about.

Also, Ambition died rougly 7 000 years before SH

Quote

Yes. The Evil is a consequence of Ambition's demise. But not an immediate consequence.

Extraordinary claims require inordinate evidences

Edited July 11, 2021 by mathiau

[+Bzhydack]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. The Evil is a consequence of Ambition's demise. But not an immediate consequence.

 

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Extraordinary claims require inordinate evidences

This. How can you know that? For now, every magical cataclysm in Cosmere had consequences almost immedietaly: Splintering Devotion and Dominion, later Earthquake in Elantris, Destruction of Ashyn, Recreance, heck, even Shattering! Why this case would be different?

Edited July 11, 2021 by Bzhydack

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

later Earthquake in Elantris

Not a result of the Splintering except I suppose technically indirectly. 

Quote

Questioner

So, in Elantris, the earthquake that [???], was that [caused? counterplayed?] by Shards, by some powers...?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't really dug into that, but the number one thing people assume is that it was the shattering of Dominion and Devotion, which is not the case. They were broken much earlier. The Splintering [of them] happened much earlier.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5021

 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Secondly, Silence in the Forests of Hell would have to take place centuries before Elantris.

Last we heard, it takes place between Warbreaker and Stormlight (though I don't know if this happened before or after the reorganization where WB got moved closer to Stormlight by a lot, so might be between Era 1 and WB instead).

Quote

Questioner

Can you put the Cosmere books into [chronological] order?

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the order that I have publicly confirmed. There are obviously other books and stories fitting in there. For those, you’ll just need to RAFO.

• Elantris
• The Emperor’s Soul
• First Mistborn trilogy (The Final Empire)
• Warbreaker
• Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell
• The Stormlight Archive
• Wax and Wayne Era Mistborn (Alloy of Law)
• Sixth of the Dusk
• Future Mistborn trilogy

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e10273

So yeah, combine that with the fact that Silence's grandparents came over from the Homeland, and it looks like at the very least the Evil didn't force evacuation for seven or more thousand years after Ambition's death, though since we don't know its nature it's hard to guess if it might've been around but minor for a lot of that time or not. 

(Also, this means that Nazh likely is from the Homeland, which is interesting.)

Edited July 11, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope