Popular Post LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 1, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 1, 2021 (edited) EDIT: THIS HAS BEEN CONFIRMED! Quote Xais56 Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight. Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal. Peter Ahlstrom My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings. Xais56 It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do? Peter Ahlstrom That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO. Read below the line for the initial theory (which is pretty much basically what Peter says, though I also speculate on what the true power might be). (0.) TL;DR I believe that the "atium" we know in Mistborn Era 1 is actually an alloy of Ruin's true godmetal and electrum, as it potentially provides an answer to multiple oddities with the metal (though this does raise several questions of its own). I further speculate that the abilities of Ruin's pure metal may relate to transcending the Realms, and could perhaps be used in some manner to allow properly transitioning (the former part with more evidence than the latter, which is entirely a guess on my part). (This theory has been proposed before, I'm aware, but I feel that the threads I have found on it don't really delve into all of the evidence for it, and in some cases predate certain things such as the Hemalurgic table and several WoBs that I believe provide further evidence. So I'm fine resurrecting the debate.) (Also, as always, this is probably kind of roughly-written because I wrote it in fits and starts over several days and was too lazy for more than a cursory proofread. So let me know if anything is inconsistent or confusing.) (1.) What's odd about atium? Hide contents Atium is weird, even among godmetals. However, in my opinion, this theory provides an answer to many of the strangenesses. It can be Pushed and Pulled[1], violating the rule on Investiture resisting other Investiture (which has been stated to apply to godmetals[2]). If it's an alloy, it would likely be less Invested, and so easier to push. Combine this with the small size of atium beads, and Pushing and Pulling it becomes more reasonable. Atium cannot be burned by just any Allomancer, but there is a reason for this (and an asterisk on the no)[3], and "a little more to that story" for why you need to be an Allomancer at all.[4] Similarly, we've been told that "atium has some screwy things going on" for why it can only be burnt by atium Mistings.[40] On another occasion, when asked the same question, Brandon responded that there are holes in the way people think about godmetals, both in-world and out[39], and that there is "funkyness" related to the question of whether any Allomancer can burn any godmetal or not.[41] In my opinion, this makes it clear that something is strange with atium that makes it different from other godmetals, and this relates to who can burn it. If it's an alloy, a portion of it is a normal metal, which presumably requires someone who can burn it normally. Brandon has also said he would, in a film, make atium burnable by any Allomancer, as it no longer makes much sense with modern Realmatics for a godmetal to be limited to Mistborn.[5] This theory allows godmetals to be burnable by all, without retconning Era 1's plot heavily. Additionally, we know there are "metals which exist that any Allomancer can burn, regardless of their own orientation"[6], which under this theory would simply be godmetals (assuming of course that they have the correct "ties" to the Shard, as Brandon has indicated would be needed[7]). Atium's effect is absurdly weak next to lerasium's incredible potential, considering atium lets you see a teeny bit into the future[8] while lerasium makes you a Mistborn (and apparently can do other cool things).[9] If it's an alloy, only part of it is a godmetal, and it makes sense for it to be weaker (we also see this pattern with lerasium, where alloys make one a Misting[10], far weaker than making one a Mistborn like pure lerasium does). This also opens the door for more out-there effects for alloys of Ruin's metal, as it would mean that atium's effect is a subset or at least changed version of a broader, stronger effect, similar to malatium, and other alloys have more room than "external version of the effect" like malatium and gold. We've been told that "atium's abilities are not entirely explored yet either"[33], in the context of lerasium alloys. As I said above, giving the base godmetal a broader effect would give more room for said exploration, and in a more powerful manner, than if the base effect the alloys build off is simply "external electrum". Speaking of, its effect is rather similar to electrum's, in exactly the same way malatium's effect is similar to gold's. Gold shows your own past/alternate present/something[11], malatium shows others'.[12] Electrum shows your own future[13], atium shows others'.[8] If it's an alloy with electrum, this relationship makes quite a bit more sense. This also presents a way to not have to work out what an atium-electrum alloy should do, as the answer, going off gold and malatium, is... exactly what atium already does. Side note: Brandon has actually referred to having to follow the internal-external Pushing-Pulling pattern with atium/malatium and gold/electrum before[14], though this really does not make any sense when considering that multiple alloys of atium exist, so it's not an argument in favor of anything, just an odd note. It does, however, indicate that Brandon's thought process on atium may have evolved drastically over time in some ways, so whether or not this was the original intention, it may be the case now, after newer things have come out that I feel provide more evidence for it. Atium's bronzepulse pattern is the same as gold's, in the same way the other quadrants share a pattern.[15] If it's an alloy with electrum, another metal in the temporal quadrant, atium having this pattern is reasonable. When asked what metal was swapped for atium, the answer was aluminum, but "there's an asterisk on it, it's not what you're thinking... you're making assumptions".[16] If it's an alloy, it may be that "atium Mistings" are simply electrum Mistings, if the theory that godmetal alloys can be burnt by their Misting is correct, and a swap may not have happened, at least in the way we think. (Does raise the question of what happened with aluminum that he refers to, though.) The Hemalurgy chart says atium "must be refined" in order to be used in the way indicated (specifically, stealing any power).[17] If it's an alloy, it would potentially be far more limited than the pure metal (as we see with the Allomantic effects of lerasium alloys), and so would have to be "refined" to its base form. Supposedly, pure atium grants "an expansive vision of the future"[37], which doesn't really match what we see. Electrum, the same table says, "allows an Allomancer to see a vision of possible paths they could take in the future. Usually limited to a few seconds"[34], which is much more similar to the effects we see for both metals than "an expansive vision of the future". Perhaps the "pure atium" referred to by the Allomantic chart is not the "atium" of the Final Empire, but a purer godmetal, as theorized in this post. There are also a few things that have potential answers already that this provides alternative solutions to (or in some cases expands on the existing ones rather than providing new ones). Note however that these are far more speculative than the above. Sign of sixteen is thrown off if there's seemingly 10 base metals (8 real base metals + atium + lerasium), as it depended on people recognizing 16 as the number of metals in Allomancy.[18] Current answer: mostly just depends on people noticing atium and lerasium are weird. This is easy with lerasium, but not so much with atium. New answer: ....mostly still depends on that, but makes it far easier to notice Ruin's metal is strange, as it can now have a far more powerful effect, similar to lerasium, and so stand out. WoBs imply that the Pits may be new after Rashek's Ascension, as the lake was moved there after Alendi saw it[19][20], in which case any of Ruin's essence they had — if they had it at all — would likely be pure, not atium (as the Pits would not be forming the electrum alloy), and so they would know the potentially more powerful effect. Atium Mistings exist. Every other Misting type seems to be of a base metal. Current answer: Leras screwed with Spiritual genetics to replace one type of Misting with another. New answer: They're just electrum Mistings, but as Rashek has suppressed the knowledge of this metal's effects, they don't know electrum exists on the table, let alone that electrum Mistings do. So yeah, atium being an alloy of electrum and Ruin's true godmetal makes many pieces make a whole lot more sense, in my opinion. (2.) That raises some new questions... Hide contents This does, however, cause some problems of its own, some of which have solutions readily available, others which don't. Why is it an alloy? Electrum is a naturally-occurring metal.[21] Perhaps the Pits had deposits of electrum, and moving Ruin's Perp over there[19][20] some weird Spiritual mixing to go on with the existing metal in the area. What does it mean for aluminum to have been supposedly swapped for atium, then?[16] I don't know. But then, in the same WoB, Brandon says it's not what we think and that we're making assumptions, so it's already likely to be something more complicated or weird, considering I have absolutely no idea what else a swap could be. So... I honestly don't know what this WoB means even without this theory. How was malatium made, if atium is itself an alloy? Two possibilities: One, the process of creating malatium involves refining the base metal out of atium, and alloying that. This feels less likely, as then Kelsier would have a twelfth metal, not just an eleventh, and it'd be odd if he never thought to try it. Two, there's the fact that electrum is an alloy of gold already, and malatium is gold and atium.[22] Depending on the ratios of the various alloys involved, you might be able to alloy them and end up with slightly impure malatium that is close enough to work. Allomantic electrum is 45% gold and 55% silver[23], so this depends on the ratios for malatium and (hypothetically) atium, as well as how far off an alloy can be and still work. Why would they use atium to test Mistings rather than electrum? Because Rashek does not want to reveal the existence of electrum, as it makes atium far less valuable,[13] which would be bad since atium is one of the primary things he uses for leverage over the nobles.[25] Overall, most of the problems I can think of have reasonable solutions, with the main remaining problem being a specific weird segment of a WoB. (3.) What does Ruin's pure metal do, then? Hide contents I do actually have a theory on this, though there is little in the way of proof (I do have some reasoning, though, and there's some evidence still): I believe that it might involve pulling the Realms closer together in an area and allowing a person to transcend all three Realms. (Also, perhaps then machines could be made with it or its alloys to allow proper Realmatic transition, since Scadrial is lacking in that department.) Scadrial currently has no method of crossing the Realms besides an unknown but small number of Perpendicularities. Meanwhile, Roshar, our other main planet, has: Oathgates, which we see can indeed reliably transport between Realms[26] Radiants with the Surge of Transportation[27] Radiants with the Surge of Transformation[24][28] Bondsmiths[29] (or at least one Bondsmith, but the Bondsmith Honorblade being capable of it[30] may indicate it's a power they all can learn) Four Honorblades (Willshaper, Elsecaller, Lightweaver, Bondsmith) Two of its own Perpendicularities[31] In the face of all this, Scadrial gaining access via a godmetal that must be worked in complicated ways and with a large amount to allow transition feels almost inadequate. Elend and the other atium Mistings are described as "transcending the Physical Realm because of the body of the god that they burned"[34], and Elend looks directly at Kelsier in the Cognitive.[34] Yes, this is atium, rather than the metal proposed in this theory. However, lerasium alloys have very similar effects to pure lerasium, so I do believe the alloys of the metal would provide a good place to look for clues to its own effect. Plus, the normal alloys do tend to line up well with their base metal.[35] Kelsier sees the Spiritual Realm lines coming from Elend when he does this.[34] If Elend is possibly pulling the Realms together in the area, Kelsier is probably being pulled a little closer to the Spiritual too due to proximity, and can see that Elend is even further into it, as the latter's at the center of the effect. Malatium's effect is enhanced by Kelsier burning it during the transition between Realms.[36] If malatium, as an alloy of Ati's godmetal, naturally involves transitioning between the Realms, then already being between Realms when burning it could plausibly help it do its job more effectively. Alloys of atium have "various mental and temporal Allomantic effects".[37] These could very well tie directly to the other Realms — mental of course being Cognitive, and temporal being Spiritual due to the timeless nature of the place (heck, some of the temporal metals directly involve reading the Spiritual already, including atium[38]). If the pure metal allows transcending the Realms, it makes sense that adding it to another metal could alter said metal's effects to make them more Realmatically inclined. As mentioned in Section 1, supposedly "pure atium grants the Allomancer an expansive vision of the future and enhances the mind's ability to accept, process, and hold information".[37] If, as I propose, this refers not to the metal from the Pits but to the pure form of Ruin's essence, it may allow essentially Elend's duralumin burst (pulling him into the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms and allowing him to process the wealth of information contained) as its normal effect, and the duralumin simply let him finally get enough of Ruin's essence in one go for this to happen. After all, "expansive" is really not the greatest word for atium's effect in Era 1. Additionally, it provides a powerful ability to balance it out with lerasium, considering they are both the pure essence of a Shard and so in my opinion should be pretty powerful. Again, this is far more guesswork-y than the first section, but I feel it makes sense both with the evidence (such as it is) and from a logical perspective. (I.) References Hide contents Mistborn: The Final Empire, chapter 30 Spoiler And then Vin remembered the vial. The one she still carried—the one Kelsier had given her. Atium. She didn’t bother to grab it from the place she had tucked it at her waist. She burned steel, Pushing it out into the air in front of her. Then, she immediately burned iron and yanked on the bead of atium. The vial shattered, the bead heading back toward Vin. She caught it in her mouth, swallowing the lump and forcing it down. Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014) Spoiler Questioner I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body. [...] Questioner How about a metalmind that is full? Brandon Sanderson That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard. Questioner #2 A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish? Brandon Sanderson Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah. Questioner So that'd be the same for Shardplate too? Brandon Sanderson Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder. [...] Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019) Spoiler Questioner Can any Allomancer burn atium? Brandon Sanderson Can any Allomancer burn atium? Atium, no. Asterisk but no. There is a reason why. But no, they cannot. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) Spoiler Questioner If someone isn’t an Allomancer, could they burn atium? Since it’s… Brandon Sanderson They could not burn atium. They would have figured that one out. Questioner So nothing would have happened, or? Brandon Sanderson No. But there’s a little more to that story, but I’m not going to get into it right now. General Reddit 2020 (June 22, 2020) Spoiler [...] Brandon Sanderson So, I'm not sure I can explain it all in this, but one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers. As I've gotten further in the cosmere, using a god metal as just for Mistborn has felt off. So the lore change for the films will mean any Allomancer can use atium. This, in turn, lets House Venture have access to the LR's atium as a "Control the city" last resort. They keep a task force of allomancers for this purpose--which Ham can join, in anticipation of being able to steal it once Shan accesses it. (They don't know that House Venture is only given about a hundred beads of atium, not access to the full mythical cache, which will be reserved for the third movie.) Makes the worldbuilding and storytelling more elegant, I've found, in the film. And it fits better with more "modern" cosmere fundamentals as have developed over the last decade. I think I'd make this change even if we moved to a television show and long form. [...] 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012) Spoiler Joe ST Can a Misting burn the god-metal alloys of their metal? If not, do the god-metals even 'exist' if there are no full Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson There are metals which exist that any Allomancer can burn, regardless of their own orientation. General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013) Spoiler word_thief What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate? Brandon Sanderson A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen… Mistborn: The Final Empire, chapter 13 Spoiler Kelsier seemed to fuzz slightly to her eyes; then a translucent, wraithlike image shot out into the mists in front of him. The image looked just like Kelsier, and it walked just a few steps in front of him. A very faint, trailing after-image extended from the duplicate back to Kelsier himself. It was like…a reverse shadow. The duplicate did everything Kelsier did—except, the image moved first. It turned, and then Kelsier followed its same path. The image’s mouth began moving. A second later, Kelsier spoke. “Atium lets you see just a bit into the future. Or, at least, it lets you see what people are going to do a little bit in the future. In addition, it enhances your mind, allowing you to deal with the new information, allowing you to react more quickly and collectedly.” 17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010) Spoiler 17th Shard If a Mistborn burns lerasium, as in, not just ingests it, what effect would it grant Allomantically? Brandon Sanderson That is a RAFO. It would do something, but the thing you've gotta remember is that, when ingesting lerasium for the first time and gaining the powers, your body is actually burning it. Think of lerasium as a metal anyone can burn. Does that make sense? By burning it you gain access to those powers. It rewrites your spiritual DNA, and there are ways to do really cool things with lerasium that I don't see how anyone would know. Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer. Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016) Spoiler Questioner I was also wondering if... I just finished reading the Ars Arcanum in the back of Bands of Mourning and I heard it mention that god metals could be alloyed to give different abilities or traits. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Could you give an example of one? Brandon Sanderson So, you could alloy lerasium with certain metals of the sixteen in the table and get, if you had just enough lerasium, it would make them a misting of those powers. Mistborn: The Final Empire, chapter 27 Spoiler “Gold and atium are complements, like the other metal pairs,” Kelsier said. “Atium lets you see, marginally, into the future. Gold works in a similar way, but it lets you see into the past. Or, at least, it gives you a glimpse of another version of yourself, had things been different in the past.” Mistborn: The Final Empire, chapter 36 Spoiler But, what good was the knowledge? Her “Eleventh Metal” was probably just a paired opposite of gold—the metal Kelsier had told her was the most useless of them all. Gold had shown Vin herself—or, at least, a different version of her that had felt real enough to touch. But, it had simply been a vision of what she could have become, had the past been different. The Eleventh Metal had done something similar: Instead of showing Vin’s own past, it had shown her similar images from other people. And that told her…nothing. What difference did it make what the Lord Ruler could have been? It was the current man, the tyrant that ruled the Final Empire, that she had to defeat. The Hero of Ages, chapter 3 Spoiler Vin burned electrum. This created a cloud of images around her, shadows of possible things she could do in the future. Electrum, the Allomantic complement of gold. Elend had started calling it “poor man’s atium.” It wouldn’t affect the battle much, other than to make her immune to atium, should the Inquisitor have any. The Hero of Ages Annotations (June 25, 2009) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Electrum I held off on using this metal because while I knew what it had to do, I also knew that it would make atium far less important. The way I built Allomancy, there is a logic to its framework. Atium shows other people's futures. Gold shows your own past. Each group of metals has internal and external powers. Therefore, one of the two alloys (either atium's or gold's) had to show other people's pasts—the Eleventh Metal from book one, an alloy of atium. The final metal of that group, then, had to show your own future. I wanted this to be an alloy of atium. But the problem was that it couldn't be. There is always a pushing metal and a pulling metal to each set. The pull always comes first; the push is always the alloy. The two external metals (that do things to other people) have to be grouped together, and the two internal metals (that do things to yourself) have to be grouped together. That means atium and gold are both pulling metals, and the ones that do things to you both had to be related to gold—and both metals that do things to other people had to be related to atium. Therefore, even though initial logic makes it seem that the alloy of atium should be the one that shows your own future, the way the magic is arranged means that it has to show other people's pasts. [Editor's note: Careful readers may intuit something else about this that Brandon is holding back.] Mistborn: The Final Empire, chapter 20 Spoiler “Eventually, you’ll be able to sense two different pulse lengths. Internal metals, like bronze and copper, give off longer pulses than external metals, like iron and steel. Practice will also let you sense the three patterns within the pulses: one for the physical metals, one for the mental metals, and one for the two greater metals.” Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016) Spoiler wicktacular At the end of the first Mistborn trilogy it's really significant that 1/16th of the soldiers who got really sick are now atium Mistings. Brandon Sanderson Yes. wicktacular But we know that there's more than sixteen metals. Wh-- wicktacular So were there-- were 1/16th of the rest of them just *inaudible* just not significant? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Sixteen that he-- when Preservation set that all up. He, number one, was not all there. But he was trying to create sixteen as a symbol to say, "Hey, catch this. I've given you a clue-- uh-- help." And so it was devised specifically for that. "*inaudible* Something's going on here." Brandon Sanderson No, no, they would have been Mistings of other types as well. wicktacular Did he bump one of the other types then to make it sixteen? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. wicktacular Okay. Do you have in your head *inaudible*? Brandon Sanderson Chromium. Brandon Sanderson Yes, that's right. It would probably have been one of the metals that was difficult to get at that level of technology. It would have been chromium - chromium would be hard gather at that time. Actually, no, it would have been aluminum. *about a minute later, while signing someone else's book* Hold on, there's a caveat to that last answer. Let me finish signing this and expand on that. *pause* So, it would still have been aluminum, but not for the reason your thinking. It would have been aluminum, but there's an asterisk next to that answer. wicktacular Chromium? wicktacular Okay. Interesting. Brandon Sanderson Hard to get chromium. wicktacular I've been thinking about-- Brandon Sanderson Oh no! He bumped aluminum. Yeah, he bumped aluminum. Sorry I had to-- I changed my mind. wicktacular Oh! Brandon Sanderson *a moment later* Okay, Chad? I have a <qualification> for you. I'll do this and then we'll... *a moment later* So... wicktacular On the sixteen or the *inaudible*... Brandon Sanderson The sixteen. So the answer is "yes," but it's not something-- it's not what you're thinking it is. wicktacular Okay. Brandon Sanderson Alright, there's an asterisk on it, okay? There's an asterisk on it, it's not what you're thinking. Uh, you're making-- you're making assumptions. Table of Hemalurgic Metals Spoiler ATIUM Steals any power. Must be refined. Mistborn: Secret History, part 1 chapter 2 Spoiler “I needed a sign,” Fuzz whispered, stopping near Kelsier. “Something he couldn’t change. A sign of the weapon I’d buried. The boiling point of water, I think. Maybe its freezing point? But what if the units change over the years? I needed something that would be remembered always. Something they’ll immediately recognize.” He leaned in. “Sixteen.” “Six … teen?” Kelsier said. “Sixteen.” Fuzz grinned. “Clever, don’t you think?” “Because it means…” “The number of metals,” Fuzz said. “In Allomancy.” “There are ten. Eleven, if you count the one I discovered.” “No! No, no, that’s stupid. Sixteen. It’s the perfect number. They’ll see. They have to see.” Fuzz started pacing again, and his head returned—mostly—to its earlier state. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Spoiler Vegasdev The other lake in Alendi's bumps? Brandon Sanderson A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two. The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground. (Note that the Well is a very similar manifestation. You've also seen one other manifestation like this....) Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010) Spoiler Chaos (paraphrased) Does Ruin have a pool, similar to Preservation's pool with the Well of Ascension and Skai's pool in Elantris? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes. His pool is the Pits [Pits of Hathsin]. Encyclopædia Britannica, Electrum Spoiler Electrum, natural or artificial alloy of gold with at least 20 percent silver, which was used to make the first known coins in the Western world. Most natural electrum contains copper, iron, palladium, bismuth, and perhaps other metals. The colour varies from white-gold to brassy, depending on the percentages of the major constituents and copper. In the ancient world the chief source was Lydia, in Asia Minor, where the alloy was found in the area of the Pactolus River, a small tributary of the Hermus (modern Gediz Nehri, in Turkey). The Hero of Ages, Names and Terms Spoiler MALATIUM: The metal discovered by Kelsier, often dubbed the Eleventh Metal. Nobody knows where he found it, or why he thought it could kill the Lord Ruler, but it is an alloy of atium and gold. Malatium eventually provided the clue Vin needed to defeat the Lord Ruler, as it allows an Allomancer to see a shadow from another person’s past. The Hero of Ages, chapter 31 Spoiler However, if it is true that the force has returned and I am unable to deal with it, then perhaps knowledge of electrum will give you some aid. My researchers have discovered that mixing an alloy of forty-five percent gold and fifty-five percent silver creates a new Allomantic metal. Burning it will not give you the power of atium, but will provide some help against those who themselves burn it. Rhythm of War, chapter 22 Spoiler That was fortunate, for while Shallan could slip into Shadesmar using her powers, she couldn’t take anyone with her—and she couldn’t return on her own. Even Jasnah, whose powers supposedly allowed it, had trouble bringing herself back from Shadesmar. Mistborn: The Final Empire, chapter 33 Spoiler “You madman,” Breeze said quietly, eyes open wide. “Atium is the foundation of the imperial economy—controlling it is one of the main ways that the Lord Ruler maintains his hold over the nobility. We may not get to his reserves, but this will eventually have the same effect. You blessed lunatic…you blessed genius!” Rhythm of War, chapter 13 Spoiler The Oathgates—though primarily used to quickly move troops and supplies—had another function. They had the ability to send people back and forth into Shadesmar, a usage that Dalinar’s scholars and Radiants had slowly managed to unlock during the past year. Oathbringer, chapter 33 Spoiler “All Radiants have an attachment to Shadesmar,” Jasnah said. “Our spren originate there, and our bond ties us to them. But my order has special control over moving between realms. I was able to shift to Shadesmar to escape my would-be assassins.” Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016) Spoiler Rachael When she [Shallan] Soulcasts, does she physically go? Or does she just think? Brandon Sanderson She transitions into the Cognitive Realm… Yeah she transitions but she’s not a hundred percent there… Rachael Then does Jasnah’s… does she work the same way? Brandon Sanderson She goes completely over. That’s one of the differences between their magics. Shallan could get there if she wanted to, she hasn’t so far completely transitioned. Argent Even during regular Soulcasting, for both of them? Brandon Sanderson Oh for regular Soulcasting Jasnah doesn’t either. Argent ‘Cause we were talking about the scene with the ship and Shallan. So would an outside observer see her shift over or— Brandon Sanderson The outside observer would see weirdness happening for sure. Rhythm of War, chapter 47 Spoiler One of Jasnah’s escape boats waited on the other side, in Shadesmar. In an emergency, Dalinar could get himself and the Mink through the perpendicularity. They’d drop a short distance—but not nearly as far as they would on this side—into a padded ship with mandras hooked in place. Rhythm of War, chapter 111 Spoiler “Wait,” Dalinar said as Ishar stood and slammed his fists together. A perpendicularity opened, as it had before, releasing a powerful explosion of light. [...] Dalinar lurched, rising into the air as the Lashing took effect. The Windrunners darted up after him, including Leyten, who grabbed Szeth. As they left the column of light, Dalinar could see Ishar’s soldiers stepping into the perpendicularity. A short time later it vanished. The Herald, his men, and the Honorblade were gone. Transported into Shadesmar. Oathbringer, chapter 93 Spoiler “No.” Azure laughed, shaking her head. “I didn’t know of those until Kal told me about them. I used a portal between realms. Cultivation’s Perpendicularity, they call it. On your side, it’s in the Horneater Peaks.” [...] “There’s supposedly another perpendicularity,” Azure said. “It’s unpredictable and dangerous, and appears randomly in different places. My guides warned against trying to hunt it.” Table of Allomantic Metals Spoiler Electrum Burning electrum allows an Allomancer to see a vision of possible paths they could take in the future. Usually limited to a few seconds. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Spoiler Chaos I really want to know what the last two metals are. I always thought the bead Elend ate was one of them, but perhaps they are just things of Preservation, not meant to be understood Brandon Sanderson The metal chunk that Elend ate is intended to be something of a mystery. Much like atium, actually. Suffice it to say that atium isn't, and never was, what people thought it was. I intended Allomancy to be much like a real science. People investigate and put things into boxes, trying to describe and understand the world around them. That doesn't mean they always get things right, however. Let me say this, as I don't want to spoil too much. If that metal Elend ate were fused into specific alloys with certain metals, it could have instead created Mistings of each of the different Allomantic powers. Atium's abilities are not entirely explored yet either. Footnote: The metal in question in this exchange is Lerasium Mistborn: Secret History, part 6 chapter 8 Spoiler Below, men fought for their lives, and he saw them transcending the Physical Realm because of the body of the god that they burned. [...] Elend Venture raised his hand, and then exploded with light. Lines of white scattered from him in all directions, lines that drilled through all things. Lines that Connected him to Kelsier, to the future, and to the past. He’s seeing it fully, Kelsier thought. That place between moments. Elend ended with a sword in Marsh’s neck, and looked directly at Kelsier, transcending the three Realms. Mistborn: The Final Empire, chapter 36 Spoiler Could it be that the Eleventh Metal wasn’t really “eleventh” at all? Gold and atium had always seemed oddly paired to Vin. All of the other metals came in pairs that were similar—a base metal, then its alloy, each doing opposite things. Iron Pulled, steel Pushed. Zinc Pulled, brass Pushed. It made sense. All except for atium and gold. Mistborn: Secret History, part 1 chapter 1 Spoiler “I saw something,” Kelsier said, “as the Lord Ruler killed me. The person as he might once have been. His past? A version of his past? He stood at the Well of Ascension.” “Did you? Hmm. Yes, the metal, flared during the moment of transition. You got a glimpse of the Spiritual Realm, then? His Connection and his past? You were using Ati’s essence, unfortunately. One shouldn’t trust it, even in a diluted form. Except…” He frowned, cocking his head, as if trying to remember something he’d forgotten. Table of Allomantic Metals Spoiler ATIUM Pure atium grants the Allomancer an expansive vision of the future and enhances the mind's ability to accept, process, and hold information. In alloy form, it produces various expanded mental and temporal effects. General Twitter 2015 (April 17, 2015) Spoiler Sam Hock Is there a connection between Sak's talent and Allomantic electrum? If so, what is it? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Reading a person's spiritual connections and possibilities. Similar powers, as is atium. /r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 13, 2015) Spoiler SageOfTheWise In Allomancy, normal metals are simply a tool that channels Allomancer's already existing Connection to the power of Preservation, which is why non-Allomancers don't get powers from digesting metal. But if I understand it correctly, god metals are an exception, since they are a form of a Shard's power, burning them directly uses the power stored within. If I have this right, how come a normal person can burn lerasium, but not atium? Or could they, and no ones thought to try? But if that was true why are there atium Mistings? Brandon Sanderson Suffice it to say that what people both in the books and out think about the god metals has some holes in it. #SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016) Spoiler Cloud of the Ghar Was atium truly one of the 16 metals, or can it be used by anyone just like lerasium? Brandon Sanderson Atium has some screwy things going on. It's not one of the 16, but not just anybody could use it. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler Questioner Can an Allomancer burn any god metal? Or is it specifically Preservation and Ruin? Brandon Sanderson That is actually a RAFO. There's some funkyness going on there. Edited November 8, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope CONFIRMED! 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xais56 Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight. Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal. Peter Ahlstrom My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings. Xais56 It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do? Peter Ahlstrom That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.
Questioner Can an Allomancer burn any god metal? Or is it specifically Preservation and Ruin? Brandon Sanderson That is actually a RAFO. There's some funkyness going on there.
+Bzhydack Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Atium's effect is absurdly weak next to lerasium's incredible potential, considering atium lets you see a teeny bit into the future[8] while lerasium makes you a Mistborn (and apparently can do other cool things).[9] But Raizium also have not very strong effect, and we don't know many other metale to compare - no Bavadinum, Koravelium, Edglium, Aonium or Skaium... Is possible that Lerasium is anomaly, not Atium. Also keep on mond that once used, Atium goes to Spiritual and regrowhs, but Lerasium is used permanently. 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: When asked what metal was swapped for atium, the answer was aluminum, but "there's an asterisk on it, it's not what you're thinking... you're making assumptions".[16] Sorry, but wasnt that cadmium or bendalloy? Temporal for temporal? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 20 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: But Raizium also have not very strong effect We haven't seen it Allomantically burnt 21 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: and we don't know many other metale to compare - no Bavadinum, Koravelium, Edglium, Aonium or Skaium... Is possible that Lerasium is anomaly, not Atium. It's possible, sure, but I don't see why the concentrated essence of a Shard manifested in a pure form should have pretty much the exact same effect as a normal metal. 22 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: Sorry, but wasnt that cadmium or bendalloy? Temporal for temporal? A questioner assumed that and Brandon did not contradict them, but Brandon himself has never said that, as far as I can tell (related similar thing: Brandon has never indicated malatium Mistings are a thing, as far as I'm aware, that was assumed in the same question). And Brandon definitely lets people get away with false assumptions sometimes, so him not saying that it's false doesn't prove it's true. According to the WoB I used, he originally had it as chromium that was switched, and then changed his mind and decided it was aluminum. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 We don't have a very clear idea of what Lerasium does hemalurgically either. It could be just as weak compared to Atium as Atium is to it in allomancy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, Frustration said: We don't have a very clear idea of what Lerasium does hemalurgically either. It could be just as weak compared to Atium as Atium is to it in allomancy Well, I can't imagine "steals all abilities" is likely to be terribly weak, no matter what exactly it ends up meaning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Well, I can't imagine "steals all abilities" is likely to be terribly weak, no matter what exactly it ends up meaning. well if it's all of the non-power stuff like strength, inteligence, mental/emotional fortitude etc, then it can still be powerful while being sort of "weak" but that's just one way it could work out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Frustration said: well if it's all of the non-power stuff like strength, inteligence, mental/emotional fortitude etc, then it can still be powerful while being sort of "weak" but that's just one way it could work out. Sure, but that's still stronger than every other Hemalurgic metal (including atium), in terms of what's stolen by a single spike. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor #5 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Supposedly, pure atium grants "an expansive vision of the future"[37], which doesn't really match what we see. Electrum, the same table says, "allows an Allomancer to see a vision of possible paths they could take in the future. Usually limited to a few seconds"[34], which is much more similar to the effects we see for both metals than "an expansive vision of the future". Perhaps the "pure atium" referred to by the Allomantic chart is not the "atium" of the Final Empire, but a purer godmetal, as theorized in this post. Ehh. I'd say that being able to see the likely future of everything around you might well be described as "expansive." Every tendril of mist, every flake of ash, every person, they all produce a future shadow, even those you can't see, IIRC, you get shadows of objects that have not yet entered your field of view, like arrows shot at your back. And on top of that your cognition is enhanced to be able to use this information (which may well include Spiritual shenanigans, bringing you closer to your perfect understanding). All in all it's a rather impressive effect, even if it doesn't permanently change you. Compare to electrum only letting you see your future and immediately becoming a garbled mess because it runs into the futuresight vs futuresight problem. 12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: New answer: They're just electrum Mistings, but as Rashek has suppressed the knowledge of this metal, they don't know electrum exists, let alone that electrum Mistings do. I don't think that's true, the impression I got was not that electrum was an unknown metal (did no-one for a thousand years independently try to alloy silver and gold?) just that the canon of allomancy as it were was there are these eight metals that come in related pairs and these two off to the side that stand on their own and are weird and also burning a metal that's not one of these ten will kill you. My impression is basically that Vin being fed an unknown metal and then surviving the end of Final Empire with this knowledge has the resources to find that actually, what we knew for a thousand years wasn't true, and testing alloys of known metals is safe-ish, so let's see if we can find what pairs with gold. Electrum isn't talked about like a new discovery, IIRC, and I also find it implausible that the alloy itself would have been unknown, it's just that we didn't know it did allomancy, just like aluminium was a known metal (they got it from plundered noble silverware after all), they just didn't know it was an allomantic metal. ¤_¤ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 8 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Sure, but that's still stronger than every other Hemalurgic metal (including atium), in terms of what's stolen by a single spike. Perhaps, but we also know that they likely do not know everything about Atium spikes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Use the Falchion Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 Love the theory! I'll definitely see if it holds weight on my next readthrough! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Ehh. I'd say that being able to see the likely future of everything around you might well be described as "expansive." Every tendril of mist, every flake of ash, every person, they all produce a future shadow, even those you can't see, IIRC, you get shadows of objects that have not yet entered your field of view, like arrows shot at your back. I guess. It just doesn't really jive with me to describe it that way, personally, but I can see the argument. 5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: All in all it's a rather impressive effect, even if it doesn't permanently change you. It's certainly impressive, but in terms of effects in Allomancy and Feruchemy, it doesn't feel to me like it's directly doing much more than some of the other metals, it just happens to be a more useful variant. Compare that to lerasium in Hemalurgy, where it seems likely it steals a lot of attributes at once, and which is capable of permanently rewriting the spiritweb in Allomancy. There's a preeeetty large gap in raw power there. And while there's the theory that lerasium is more concentrated and so more powerful, which could work for Allomancy, that would actually be counterproductive for Hemalurgy, since Investing something already Invested is difficult (this is the reason given for why a Shardblade can't be a spike), so I don't feel that works. (To be clear, because that previous section implies otherwise: my point with Hemalurgy is not that lerasium and "refined" atium [which I theorize to be the pure form of the metal] in Hemalurgy are especially different in power [lerasium is stronger in raw power there, but in a way I feel can work logically if certain conditions are placed upon things]. It's that, even where being Invested is a drawback, lerasium is incredibly powerful, so I feel its power difference in the other systems likely also has to be more than just raw Investiture levels. In this case, I think it's a combination of Investedness and of Ruin's metal's stronger raw power being filtered and limited by the electrum.) 5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I don't think that's true, the impression I got was not that electrum was an unknown metal (did no-one for a thousand years independently try to alloy silver and gold?) just that the canon of allomancy as it were was there are these eight metals that come in related pairs and these two off to the side that stand on their own and are weird and also burning a metal that's not one of these ten will kill you. Ah, yeah, I phrased that poorly didn't I (like, really poorly)? What I meant was he suppressed the fact electrum exists on the table (as opposed to, say, atium, where most understood atium was on the table but didn't believe Mistings for the metal existed). (At least, I think that's what I meant, maybe I just paid no attention to what I was writing and screwed up xD) I'll edit that to clarify, thanks for pointing that out! 2 hours ago, Frustration said: Perhaps, but we also know that they likely do not know everything about Atium spikes. The "even atium" bit was an aside, the greater point was that Preservation's metal in Ruin's magic is almost certainly still stronger than every single base metal by a large margin, so Ruin's metal in Preservation's system and in the mixed system seemingly being only marginally stronger is strange, to me. (Note that by "stronger" I do not refer to usefulness, as atium is incredibly useful in both Allomancy and Feruchemy, but in terms of like, things done by the metal. I wouldn't be surprised if bendalloy and cadmium in Allomancy actually require more power than atium.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Harrycrapper Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Sure, but that's still stronger than every other Hemalurgic metal (including atium), in terms of what's stolen by a single spike. 11 hours ago, Frustration said: well if it's all of the non-power stuff like strength, inteligence, mental/emotional fortitude etc, then it can still be powerful while being sort of "weak" but that's just one way it could work out. I thought about this pretty thoroughly a while back and this depends on the amount of metal used and what the spike is used for. Making an Inquisitor sized spike of Lerasium is insanely wasteful and impractical, but making it more like an earing or smaller if one could manage it might be more useful than making someone a Mistborn with it. I'm not really sure how many tiny spikes one could make with a bead of Lerasium like Elend used, but let's say it's 10. Assuming it can be done, the best thing you could do with those is make 5 super Kandras who have all of the Blessings or one Uber Kandra with all of the Blessings X 5. That's the best use for Lerasium as a spikes that I can think of, though there may be other Hemalurgic constructs where it could be similarly useful. I could see Harmony or Kelsier doing something like that because they have long lifespans and having super powerful Kandra over the course of millennia could be quite useful. But, any mortal is going to be best served by becoming a Mistborn unless they already are one. Edited July 2, 2021 by Harrycrapper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bzhydack Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: And while there's the theory that lerasium is more concentrated and so more powerful, which could work for Allomancy, that would actually be counterproductive for Hemalurgy, since Investing something already Invested is difficult (this is the reason given for why a Shardblade can't be a spike), so I don't feel that works. Actualy is WoB about this: Quote Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015) #4 Share Copy Play/Pause Questioner 1 What would happen if you used lerasium as a spike for Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson Oh lerasium as a spike for Hemalurgy? Um lerasium as a spike for Hemalurgy-- Questioner 1 Would it work or would it just not work? Brandon Sanderson No I mean it would work-- Questioner 1 If you were to place a lerasium spike would you transform into a full Mistborn as opposed to-- Questioner 2 Well it can also steal powers, not just grant them, right? Brandon Sanderson Um, right. The thing about it is you're trying to Invest something that is already very Invested, which always has weird effects. So while you could do it, it would be a gross waste of the potential. It's like using a nuclear bomb as a paperweight. It is functional but-- Questioner 1 Does that mean it would be hard, for example, to make Nightblood stick something? Because-- Brandon Sanderson Yes it would be very hard to make Nightblood stick to something. The amount of Investiture in Nightblood is-- Bystander Astronomical? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Larger than most things you've seen. So Pushing on Nightblood, really hard. Used as Spike, Lerasium would give less power, than used allomanticly. Also, there is similar WoB: Quote Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019) #1 Share Copy Play/Pause Questioner So, about Feruchemy. If someone takes, for example, a copper metalmind, fills it with memories, and then a tin metalmind, fills it with senses, then melts them together into a bronze metalmind, would you be able to tap anything from it, and what? Brandon Sanderson If you made an alloy of them, you would not get anything out of them. You would know there's Investiture in there, but you wouldn't be able to pull it out. Questioner Even if it's your own? Brandon Sanderson Even if it's your own, yup. They would interfere with each other to the point that you wouldn't be able to get anything out. Sorry. I bet this would work similarly. Hemalurgic charge would interfere with Lerasium own Investiture and a lot of it would be wasted (in comparison to standard Lerasium Power). Maybe also Hemalurgic Charge would decay much faster than in Atium. But your theory is somewhat possible - Atium grows in Geods, like Pearls, so possible it is not only Atium but also other metal. But I dont think Atium is weak in Allomancy, just Lerasium is very powerfull as Godmetal (Tanavastium very durable, but not have other powers, even cannot be shaped physicly, Raizium "just" conducts Investiture, and we yet to see others). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Bzhydack said: Used as Spike, Lerasium would give less power, than used allomanticly. Sure, but the Hemalurgic table says lerasium "steals all abilities". So it's less powerful than in Allomancy, but almost certainly still far above every other metal in power. 1 hour ago, Bzhydack said: Tanavastium very durable, but not have other powers, even cannot be shaped physicly Considering there's been essentially no experimentation done with them as far as we know, I don't think we can say there's nothing else. And due to the fact that this trait is still manifest even in things like sprenblades, which are more complicated than just tanavastium, I'm inclined to guess that this is less a trait of tanavastium and more just a trait godmetals can be given, personally (same way the Honorblades can be made to grant the Surges, when that wouldn't make any sense if it was just a natural property of them, since different HB grant different powers). 1 hour ago, Bzhydack said: Raizium "just" conducts Investiture This is more than we've seen atium do outside a magic system. I would also note that we have seen neither of those used in the Metallic Arts yet even though we know they're viable, so taking their passive effects and comparing that to atium's active Allomantic and Feruchemical effects feels to me like a bit of a false equivalence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bzhydack Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 17 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Sure, but the Hemalurgic table says lerasium "steals all abilities". So it's less powerful than in Allomancy, but almost certainly still far above every other metal in power. Not nesecerly. It can, of course, steal all powers, but thing is - Hemalurgy often steals power WITH LOSS, and Lerasium can have this parameter especially high, because it is Investiture with oposite Intent. If Lerasium Spike would loss, for example, 90% of innitial power, it would make very weak Mistborn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+asmodeus Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 lookee what we have here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: Not nesecerly. It can, of course, steal all powers, but thing is - Hemalurgy often steals power WITH LOSS, and Lerasium can have this parameter especially high, because it is Investiture with oposite Intent. If Lerasium Spike would loss, for example, 90% of innitial power, it would make very weak Mistborn. Depending on what all it steals, it could have a pretty high loss factor and still be above any other metal in terms of raw power stolen. (Again, I'm not referring to usefulness, I'm referring to actual Investiture used/stolen/stored/etc per bit.) Even highly Invested and as such resistant to being used as a spike, lerasium steals far more than nearly anything else. So I don't believe being more densely Invested is the sole reason for lerasium to be stronger than atium, as I have most commonly seen proposed is the case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bzhydack Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 16 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Depending on what all it steals, it could have a pretty high loss factor and still be above any other metal in terms of raw power stolen. I think Lerasium steals all Allomantic powers, because they are Connected to it closly. Maybe also Feruchemical powers, but Im not sure. I doubght Lerasium will steal non-Scadrian powers or some body traits, because how woud this work? But Atium can steal anything, including Extra-planetary stuff, like Radiant Bonds, or Divine Breath, or some other Connection... But we need also remember what type of Investiture Atium is - this is Ruin, everything about it and around it is about entropy. And what if Decay in Lerasium Spike is very fast? BTW, it is excelent question to ask Brandon during some signings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 19 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: I think Lerasium steals all Allomantic powers, because they are Connected to it closly. Maybe also Feruchemical powers, but Im not sure. I doubght Lerasium will steal non-Scadrian powers or some body traits, because how woud this work? But Atium can steal anything, including Extra-planetary stuff, like Radiant Bonds, or Divine Breath, or some other Connection... But we need also remember what type of Investiture Atium is - this is Ruin, everything about it and around it is about entropy. And what if Decay in Lerasium Spike is very fast? As I said, 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: The "even atium" bit was an aside, the greater point was that Preservation's metal in Ruin's magic is almost certainly still stronger than every single base metal by a large margin, so Ruin's metal in Preservation's system and in the mixed system seemingly being only marginally stronger is strange, to me. The main point is not "lerasium is better than atium in Hemalurgy" (though I do think in terms of raw Investiture stolen lerasium will almost certainly beat out atium). The point is lerasium is likely way stronger than the non-god metals in Hemalurgy, while atium is only slightly above most but perhaps not even all of the non-god metals in Allomancy and Feruchemy. (Again, just in terms of Investiture, not in terms of usefulness.) And I was specifically raising that argument as a response to someone saying lerasium in Hemalurgy might be as relatively "weak" as atium in Allomancy to say that their argument does not seem to be the case, not as a broader argument over which metal is more useful to possess. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted July 4, 2021 Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 Quote (which has been stated to apply to godmetals[2]). I don't think you linked the right WoB, this one only speaks about highly invested Godmetal, not about normal Godmetal Quote Atium's effect is absurdly weak next to lerasium's incredible potential, considering atium lets you see a teeny bit into the future[8] while lerasium makes you a Mistborn (and apparently can do other cool things).[9] How strong a Mistborn you become depends on how much Lerasium you ingest, using a bead of the size of an atium bead would make you a very weak Mistborn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 6 hours ago, mathiau said: I don't think you linked the right WoB, this one only speaks about highly invested Godmetal, not about normal Godmetal Even atium alloys are Invested enough to be "very useful" for resisting Shardblades, and the question of godmetals being "Invested" in the first place is a weird one. So I don't see any godmetal being un-Invested enough for that to be relevant to this case, personally. 6 hours ago, mathiau said: How strong a Mistborn you become depends on how much Lerasium you ingest, using a bead of the size of an atium bead would make you a very weak Mistborn We don't know the exact sizes of the beads, but the lerasium is described as "tiny", "so tiny", "small", etc repeatedly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted July 4, 2021 Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 7 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Even atium alloys are Invested enough to be "very useful" for resisting Shardblades Interesting. But irrelevant here, the fact that atium can be pushed is explicitely an anomaly so the fact that Atium display some other properties of highly-invested material doesn't matter here Quote , and the question of godmetals being "Invested" in the first place is a weird one. So I don't see any godmetal being un-Invested enough for that to be relevant to this case, personally. I think you're not looking it the right way, yes godmetal can't be un-Invested but they can be over-Invested. For example Windle has manifested has manifested with different sizes as a shardstick/shardfork but he always was made of the same amount investiture, which mean there was more investiture in the Shardfork than in the metal constituting it, most likely a few hundred breaths worth of investiture more. Actually Shardplates have enough additional investiture that a Mistborn wouldn't be able to burn them Quote word_thief What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate? Brandon Sanderson A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen… General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013) The fact that over-Invested godmetal can't be pushed doesn't mean normal godmetal can't be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, mathiau said: The fact that over-Invested godmetal can't be pushed doesn't mean normal godmetal can't be. Brandon has explicitly said that atium being able to be Pushed is weird. Part of this theory is proposing a way for it to be the case besides the current answer, which is just "...it breaks a lot of rules... that everything else has to follow". Edited July 4, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted July 4, 2021 Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Brandon has explicitly said that atium being able to be Pushed is weird. Part of this theory is proposing a way for it to be the case besides the current answer, "...it breaks a lot of rules... that everything else has to follow". Yes, I know that. I'm not saying you're wrong I'm saying the WoB you said said that other godmetals couldn't be pushed didn't say that and that the fact atium resited shardblades wasn't an argument against the current answer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted November 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2021 Ah, another WoB on the topic I just stumbled across. Quote Questioner Can an Allomancer burn any god metal? Or is it specifically Preservation and Ruin? Brandon Sanderson That is actually a RAFO. There's some funkyness going on there. More indication that godmetals are perhaps ordinarily supposed to be burned by anyone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Can an Allomancer burn any god metal? Or is it specifically Preservation and Ruin? Brandon Sanderson That is actually a RAFO. There's some funkyness going on there.
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