Thaidakar's Mental State

[+honorblades]

I'd like to talk briefly about Thaidakar's mental state in light of what we learned in RoW, mainly that Thaidakar is Kelsier. 

We know for certain that cognitive shadows, unless other preventative or restorative measures are taken, can become 'insane' due to the length of time that they have been alive as well as their very nature as Cognitive entities. We see this with the Fused: they have been alive for so long that they are slow to change and adapt. They seem to become more like spren as time goes on, which is to say that they gravitate towards an "Intent" and find it difficult to deviate from that. The Pursuer is a good example of this: his entire purpose and drive is vengeance. 

We also see a peculiar type of insanity with the Heralds, in that they seem to be affected by how living people (Physical entities) think about and view them. This, again, is similar to spren, which are concepts given form. We do not know the exact nature of the Heralds' insanity, but they each seem to act inversely to their supposed divine attributes. Kalak, known to be resolute, becomes indecisive. Shalash, patron of the arts, destroys artwork of herself. Jezrien, the leader, becomes a homeless drunk. Ishar, a spiritual leader, thinks himself to be a God. 

What I wonder is how Survivorism and the myths surrounding Kelsier's continual persistence have affected his mental state. A quote from the movie Alien:

Quote

“You admire it.”

 

“I admire its… purity. A survivor. Unclouded by conscience, or petty morality.

Will this focus on survival above all else lead Kelsier down a dark path? Has it already? We know Kelsier influenced the Southern Scadrians to "Survive", and became their god as well. And as we learned in RoW, Kelsier is searching for a way to fix his "problem", which is said to be similar to the Herald's own insanity. Has Kelsier started to go insane himself but is still sane enough to try and stop it? 

Edited July 1, 2021 by honorblades
accidentally posted too soon rip

[Weltall]

I think that Kelsier's 'problem' is being stuck on Scadrial when he'd really like the freedom to go elsewhere in the Cosmere and possibly punch some more Shards in the face, rather than incipient insanity... not that he was a paragon of mental health beforehand. He's only been around for a few centuries at this point while the Fused and Heralds are thousands of years old and while we don't have an exact timeframe, we can reasonably assume the Heralds were comfortably past a thousand by the time of Aharietiam when all but Taln were at the breaking point. They also spent most of their immortality being tortured so that didn't exactly help things. We also see with Vasher at least one Cognitive Shadow who is comfortably older than Kelsier and not showing signs of insanity, even if he is wondering if he's really the person who died or just an Investiture copy who thinks he is. I don't think Kelsier ever needs to worry too much about that though, he has far too high an opinion of himself to care about that distinction.

[Crucible of Shards]

I think it’s also relevant that Kelsier has not gone through the ordeal of dying over and over, unlike the Heralds and Fused. Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the books themselves call out their cycles of death and rebirth being part of their decaying mental state?

[GroundPetrel]

I personally think that Kelsier might be becoming a better person.  IMO it fits Sanderson's typical worldview and writing style to have a bad person become better through taking the opportunity to be a good guy and help others.  (Also I've kinda cooked up this objectively crazy hypothesis that Hoid/Cephandrius/Midius/whichever is going to become a puppetmaster Big Bad and Kelsier/Thaidakar is going to become a sort of pro-self-determination Big Good but with sort of like reverse followers?  Like, Hoid wants something we'd as readers consider bad but good people in-universe are working for him, and Kelsier wants something we'd consider good but has a lot of scumbags working for him?  And Kelsier accidentally or semi-intentionally helps bad people become good?)

[+Oltux72]

On 1.7.2021 at 8:02 PM, GroundPetrel said:

I personally think that Kelsier might be becoming a better person.  IMO it fits Sanderson's typical worldview and writing style to have a bad person become better through taking the opportunity to be a good guy and help others. 

He died for his people. He saved the Southerners. How much more can you want?

And he is a ruthless killer. And he is loyal to a fault. And he is a thief and a con-man.

On 1.7.2021 at 8:02 PM, GroundPetrel said:

(Also I've kinda cooked up this objectively crazy hypothesis that Hoid/Cephandrius/Midius/whichever is going to become a puppetmaster Big Bad and Kelsier/Thaidakar is going to become a sort of pro-self-determination Big Good but with sort of like reverse followers?  Like, Hoid wants something we'd as readers consider bad but good people in-universe are working for him, and Kelsier wants something we'd consider good but has a lot of scumbags working for him?  And Kelsier accidentally or semi-intentionally helps bad people become good?)

Ehm. Has it ever occured to you to ask why Dalinar never offered Odium an agreement that would set him free in exchnge for leving Roshar alone? Hoid does not need to become a puppet master. He already is.

[GroundPetrel]

On 7/5/2021 at 0:45 PM, Oltux72 said:

He died for his people. He saved the Southerners. How much more can you want?

And he is a ruthless killer. And he is loyal to a fault. And he is a thief and a con-man.

Ehm. Has it ever occured to you to ask why Dalinar never offered Odium an agreement that would set him free in exchnge for leving Roshar alone? Hoid does not need to become a puppet master. He already is.

I mean, what I kinda want to see is Kelsier becoming a more heroic person who hesitates before indulging his worse instincts and tries to make the universe a freer place?  Like, mellowing out and becoming the Big Good as a not-quite-redemption story?  

Meanwhile with Hoid going the other way--I'm not saying he isn't a puppet master already, I'm thinking, what if his arc is more, becoming a tyrant who goes from trying to nudge people into going in the general direction he wants, to trying to control the universe to go the way he wants?  Kinda an order vs. chaos thing like in Mistborn, but this time the chaos is the better option.  

(also it'd be hilarious IMO if they "swapped sides" so by the end of the storyline Thaidakar is backing Roshar and Hoid backing Scadrial in some kind of space war)

[+Oltux72]

23 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

I mean, what I kinda want to see is Kelsier becoming a more heroic person who hesitates before indulging his worse instincts and tries to make the universe a freer place? 

Kelsier is worling to make the Cosmere a freer place. Whom does Hoid want to determine the fate of the Cosmere - a coalition of Shards reigning in divibe wisdom. Kelsier wanted only volunteers in his crew. He gave Vin oodles of money. He let Clubs just walk away. Kelsier is the champion of freedom. And he treats you like a human being who deserves to make his own choices. Harmony simply let Waxilium shoot his wife and kept him in the dark.

Yes, he is not into non-violent solutions nor into humility. I am taking the liberty to go back to ancient history. The ancient playwright Aischylos was a famous author. What was the inscription on his gravestone? That he fought at Marathon.

23 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

Like, mellowing out and becoming the Big Good as a not-quite-redemption story?  

In a place where Shards routinely inflict death rates in excess of 90% you want him to mellow out? How to put this, are you sure that is a good idea?

23 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

Meanwhile with Hoid going the other way--I'm not saying he isn't a puppet master already, I'm thinking, what if his arc is more, becoming a tyrant who goes from trying to nudge people into going in the general direction he wants, to trying to control the universe to go the way he wants?  Kinda an order vs. chaos thing like in Mistborn, but this time the chaos is the better option.  

(also it'd be hilarious IMO if they "swapped sides" so by the end of the storyline Thaidakar is backing Roshar and Hoid backing Scadrial in some kind of space war)

What do you think will happen to the planet which is home to the majority of Odium's supporters if this war Hoid is organizing will start in earnest?

[GroundPetrel]

On 7/6/2021 at 1:30 PM, Oltux72 said:

Kelsier is worling to make the Cosmere a freer place. Whom does Hoid want to determine the fate of the Cosmere - a coalition of Shards reigning in divibe wisdom. Kelsier wanted only volunteers in his crew. He gave Vin oodles of money. He let Clubs just walk away. Kelsier is the champion of freedom. And he treats you like a human being who deserves to make his own choices. Harmony simply let Waxilium shoot his wife and kept him in the dark.

Fair point.  (also, man, Sazed became an asshole after Ascending!  And he's one of the least terrible gods!)

On 7/6/2021 at 1:30 PM, Oltux72 said:

In a place where Shards routinely inflict death rates in excess of 90% you want him to mellow out? How to put this, are you sure that is a good idea?

I think my main concern is that the Kelsier we met in The Final Empire would leave a bunch of Investiture just roaming around unchecked after somehow assassinating the Shards, and everything we've seen so far suggests that that is a very bad thing.  

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 7/5/2021 at 1:45 PM, Oltux72 said:

Has it ever occured to you to ask why Dalinar never offered Odium an agreement that would set him free in exchnge for leving Roshar alone?

to be fair, doesn't need much asking, considering Dalinar explicitly states it lol

[Jazzy Kandra]

On 6/30/2021 at 11:02 PM, honorblades said:

We know for certain that cognitive shadows, unless other preventative or restorative measures are taken, can become 'insane' due to the length of time that they have been alive as well as their very nature as Cognitive entities. We see this with the Fused: they have been alive for so long that they are slow to change and adapt. They seem to become more like spren as time goes on, which is to say that they gravitate towards an "Intent" and find it difficult to deviate from that. The Pursuer is a good example of this: his entire purpose and drive is vengeance. 

We also see a peculiar type of insanity with the Heralds, in that they seem to be affected by how living people (Physical entities) think about and view them. This, again, is similar to spren, which are concepts given form. We do not know the exact nature of the Heralds' insanity, but they each seem to act inversely to their supposed divine attributes. Kalak, known to be resolute, becomes indecisive. Shalash, patron of the arts, destroys artwork of herself. Jezrien, the leader, becomes a homeless drunk. Ishar, a spiritual leader, thinks himself to be a God. 

I'm of the opinion that there are a few extra things effecting the Heralds. First, they did break their Oaths, which probably runs counter to their Intents. Two, they are probably also deeply effected by the fact that Ba-Ado-Misham [BAM] is out of commission. The Sibling says that BAM being captured damaged all the souls which belong to Roshar. That includes the singers, fused, and spren. It probably effects the Heralds too, and did something to mess them up (even more than before). I think the fact that Ishar is most injured is a good sign that this is actually related to damaged bonds and connections more than anything else. So, their current 'insanity' might be, instead, a combination of broken oaths, the injury done to their Bonds/Identity due to the BAM episode, and their antiquity/nature. But, personally, I think their age and nature are the smallest contributing factors to their current state of being.

Thaidakar, though, wasn't injured by BAM. And well, he didn't break any oaths, either. And while he is a CS, he's a pretty new one, so it's unlikely to have effected him much. I think his problem is more likely being stuck, and maybe being unhappy with how he's Connected to Scadrial and its influence on him. But, I don't think he's actually any more 'insane' than before, just a sociopath, ha.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Jazzy Kandra

[mathiau]

On 01/07/2021 at 5:02 AM, honorblades said:

We know for certain that cognitive shadows, unless other preventative or restorative measures are taken, can become 'insane' due to the length of time that they have been alive as well as their very nature as Cognitive entities.

We don't actually, the only persons that are both mad and CSs are Shades and CSs that have become mad for other reasons.

Note the that the person who said CSs became insane was both older than Kel and very much not insane

Edited August 1, 2021 by mathiau
Note not not

[apepi]

On 8/1/2021 at 7:57 AM, mathiau said:

We don't actually, the only persons that are both mad and CSs are Shades and CSs that have become mad for other reasons.

Note the that the person who said CSs became insane was both older than Kel and very much not insane

I do feel that insanity is a running theme that it effects CS more. Like, you have to consider that being broken seems to welcome investiture, and CS are basically just souls made out of investiture. You put two and two together and you are going to have a bad time.

I also feel like this has something to do with becoming a savant. The way I see it, when someone is turned into a cognitive shadow, the investiture fills up what is left to complete a soul, but after a while your soul is damaged more, so the investiture just keeps filling it up. Slowly your soul ends up becoming more investiture than the soul you had to begin with, which messes things up. It ends up like a picture over the internet. First it starts off as a nice good picture with a good resolution, then slowly people the picture have less resolution, they crop it, and the quality is much less than what you started out. You end up with a blurry cropped out mess.

I do feel like the Returned do very slightly hint at slowly going mad, like Lightsong talks about how they were more willing to give their breath away and no one has done so in such a long time. But I also feel like the Returned are structured in the way they are so they don't go mad. Ever wonder why  they don't really see any conflict(besides Vasher and his friends...)? Why they are not out in the world? Why they stay where they are? What if they are like that so try to minimize the madness? What if they are designed to die when they give their breath away because it is a way to kill them, hence make them not go mad? Endowment knew what they were doing, they knew that the CS could become mad for living so long, so they tried to develop them a way to stop that from happening. The whole Returned structure seems to support this.

Edited August 8, 2021 by apepi

[TheWanderer]

3 hours ago, apepi said:

I do feel like the Returned do very slightly hint at slowly going mad, like Lightsong talks about how they were more willing to give their breath away and no one has done so in such a long time. But I also feel like the Returned are structured in the way they are so they don't go mad. Ever wonder why  they don't really see any conflict(besides Vasher and his friends...)? Why they are not out in the world? Why they stay where they are? What if they are like that so try to minimize the madness? What if they are designed to die when they give their breath away because it is a way to kill them, hence make them not go mad? Endowment knew what they were doing, they knew that the CS could become mad for living so long, so they tried to develop them a way to stop that from happening. The whole Returned structure seems to support this.

Well to be fair, the returned are by and large forced by the religion of their country to remain where they are. So to an extent that does account for your question of why aren't they out in the world. Since most likely lack the skills, training, or the knowledge that they might needed to plot their escape. Also most don't want to leave the life of luxury and opulence initially. Yet as siri herself notes upon becoming queen they have everything they could want in the court of gods. Save for freedom to do anything, it is a gilded cage but a cage all the same. This is not even taking into account hearing people day in and day out request your breath to save their dying children, friends, or family. That must take a toll on the person refusing no matter how callous they may believe themselves to be. 
Even so, that is an interesting take and I will have to keep an eye on the cognitive shadows of the cosmere's mental states a bit more thoroughly from now on.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Note that Kell is a Sliver, so his continued existence is due to his intrinsic Investiture, as opposed to other Shadows who need an external source.
 

In addition, he’s maintained by the power of Preservation, which seems like the best for keeping people around indefinitely. And on top of that, Kelsier has access to Breath and Copperminds, so he should be able to avoid the memory issue.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 6/30/2021 at 10:02 PM, honorblades said:

I'd like to talk briefly about Thaidakar's mental state in light of what we learned in RoW, mainly that Thaidakar is Kelsier. . 

We also see a peculiar type of insanity with the Heralds, in that they seem to be affected by how living people (Physical entities) think about and view them. This, again, is similar to spren, which are concepts given form. We do not know the exact nature of the Heralds' insanity, but they each seem to act inversely to their supposed divine attributes. Kalak, known to be resolute, becomes indecisive. Shalash, patron of the arts, destroys artwork of herself. Jezrien, the leader, becomes a homeless drunk. Ishar, a spiritual leader, thinks himself to be a God. 

What I wonder is how Survivorism and the myths surrounding Kelsier's continual persistence have affected his mental state. A quote from the movie Alien:

Will this focus on survival above all else lead Kelsier down a dark path? Has it already? We know Kelsier influenced the Southern Scadrians to "Survive", and became their god as well. And as we learned in RoW, Kelsier is searching for a way to fix his "problem", which is said to be similar to the Herald's own insanity. Has Kelsier started to go insane himself but is still sane enough to try and stop it? 

When a cognitive shadow is created the persons original soul is essentially replaced with a pure investiture copy from a Shard. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183/#e3895

The Intent of the Shard that their souls is now made of influences how they act over time. (per Zahel in RoW Ch. 16) Kelsier's soul is now made of Preservation investiture which reinforces the importance of survival. He was The Survivor in life as well, but if anything Preservation investiture will reinforce it. 

Like other people have said I don't think he'll be too bad off yet. He hasn't died over and over and been tortured like the Heralds and it's only been ~300 years for Kelsier versus ~7,000 for the Heralds and Fused.

[RedBlue]

Do we know for sure that Cognitive Shadows are influenced by the Intent of the Shard that made them? Or have we just started assuming that for some reason?

The Heralds’ various flavours of insanity don’t seem to have anything to do with the Intent of Honor, as far as I can see. And not all of the Fused have intense hatred issues.

[mathiau]

6 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Do we know for sure that Cognitive Shadows are influenced by the Intent of the Shard that made them? Or have we just started assuming that for some reason?

We don't

6 hours ago, RedBlue said:

The Heralds’ various flavours of insanity don’t seem to have anything to do with the Intent of Honor, as far as I can see. And not all of the Fused have intense hatred issues.

Leshwi and the Shanay-im does sound more Valour than Odium

[+Child of Hodor]

9 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Do we know for sure that Cognitive Shadows are influenced by the Intent of the Shard that made them? Or have we just started assuming that for some reason?

The Heralds’ various flavours of insanity don’t seem to have anything to do with the Intent of Honor, as far as I can see. And not all of the Fused have intense hatred issues.

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

We don't

Leshwi and the Shanay-im does sound more Valour than Odium

We have Zahel a Cognitive Shadow, who was once a famous scholar on Nalthis, saying it. It doesn't mean it can't be resisted to some extent like the Vessel resists or directs the full Shard. 

Quote

"Be wary of the Fused, kid. The longer one of us exists, the more like a spren we become. Consumed by a singular purpose, our minds bound and chained by our Intent." RoW Ch. 15 Zahel to Kaladin describing what he, the Heralds and Fused are (Cognitive Sahdows)

Zahel / Vasher is of Endowment he became an Ardent who are all property of Lighteyes and have no property themselves. He gave away literally everything he owned. He also became a teacher which is another way of giving. 

The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows of Honor, 9 of whom broke their Oaths and it has had magical, specific consequences to them.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14004

They behave in ways directly in contrast to what their Divine Attributes were when they were still keeping their Oaths. Shallan's attributes were Art and Beauty now she travels the world destroying art depicting her.  Ishar was Pious and Guiding like a priest or advisor. Now he declares himself a god and gives terrible advice (like murder surgebinders to Nale). Nale was Justice, now he uses the law to execute people he wants to kill already for unrelated reasons (they are surgebinders).  

[mathiau]

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

We have Zahel a Cognitive Shadow, who was once a famous scholar on Nalthis, saying it. It doesn't mean it can't be resisted to some extent like the Vessel resists or directs the full Shard. 

First Zahel said he was a spren of himself, not a spren of Endowment and second Zahel's word is far from absolute

Quote

Zahel / Vasher is of Endowment he became an Ardent who are all property of Lighteyes and have no property themselves. He gave away literally everything he owned. He also became a teacher which is another way of giving.

*He gave everything except for the one thing he was meant to give (his divine breath)

Quote

The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows of Honor, 9 of whom broke their Oaths and it has had magical, specific consequences to them.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14004

They behave in ways directly in contrast to what their Divine Attributes were when they were still keeping their Oaths.

Shallan's attributes were Art and Beauty now she travels the world destroying art depicting her.  Ishar was Pious and Guiding like a priest or advisor. Now he declares himself a god and gives terrible advice (like murder surgebinders to Nale). Nale was Justice, now he uses the law to execute people he wants to kill already for unrelated reasons (they are surgebinders).  

Shalash, but your observations are valid.

I don't think them acting contrary to their attributes is the cause of their madness, rather it's the consequence (the WoB you linked is only saying it's making them worse). Otherwise Taln would either not be mad or have broken long ago

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 8/13/2021 at 11:16 AM, mathiau said:

First Zahel said he was a spren of himself, not a spren of Endowment and second Zahel's word is far from absolute

*He gave everything except for the one thing he was meant to give (his divine breath)

Shalash, but your observations are valid.

I don't think them acting contrary to their attributes is the cause of their madness, rather it's the consequence (the WoB you linked is only saying it's making them worse). Otherwise Taln would either not be mad or have broken long ago

Just a minor note: A Divine Breath is a splinter of Endowment. So that may impact things.

I agree entirely about everything else though.

[Weltall]

To go with the above point, we know that you don't need very much Breath to start getting influenced by Endowment's intent (even one might be enough) and a Divine Breath is a rather large chunk of Investiture. Brandon has said that Splinters often have their own intents and we know from spren and from WoBs on the Skaze that Splinters are also strongly influenced by the intent of the Shard that created them.

So yeah, by being sapient Investiture, a Cognitive Shadow does experience a degree of influence from whatever Shard's Investiture is enabling their continued existence.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Weltall

[mathiau]

26 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Brandon has said that Splinters often have their own intents

This wob say they have their own intents distinct from the one of their Shard

[Weltall]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

This wob say they have their own intents distinct from the one of their Shard

Yes, and? We know from the spren themselves and from the Skaze (in a WoB I linked to) that Splinters are also influenced by the intent of their Shard. You'll note that the questioner explicitly made that assumption in the WoB and Brandon didn't contradict it.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Weltall

[mathiau]

Just now, Weltall said:

Yes, and? We know from the spren themselves and from the Skaze (in a WoB I linked to) that Splinters are also influenced by the intent of their Shard.

Sprens and Skaze were born of the power and they can still become very different from their Shard (Sja). I don't see why Kel's "Preservationness" should increase with time if it was not increased at the moment he became a CS of Preservation.