Jash

Moash, and the fans who hate him : Part 2

70 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

This is a good point and raises a question going forward. Who's left for us to hate heading into book 5?

  • Nale
  • Ishar
  • Hoid
  • Thaidakar
  • Malata

OK, the last two are wild guesses. But I think, but this is wild speculation I can give no rational defense for, that Book5 will open with the duell and in due course there will be a way to save Roshar but at the cost of setting Odium free and Hoid will prevent it, leading to Jasnah making a serious attempt on Hoid's life.

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24 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

This is a good point and raises a question going forward. Who's left for us to hate heading into book 5? Rayse is gone; Lezian is gone; Venli's well into her redemption arc. With Moash being blinded and potential uncertainty about whether the new Vessel of Odium will keep taking his pain, he may end up harder to hate.

We're kinda left with just Taravangian, which makes me think that he will do something terribly awful in Book 5 (I mean worse that what he's done before), probably to Dalinar or Kaladin. Welp. :(

*ominous music starts*

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3 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Taravangian was a regular monarch who discovered that the apocalypse is coming - and began doing whatever it took to save humanity. He has a much more utilitarian view of the Immortal words - to him, the Last Desolation is just calculus. No matter how many people die right now, as long as humanity survives at the end, "Life before death" is achieved because there are people to live. 

But as characters in a fictional work, D, R, and T are doing what they do to achieve something, while Moash just keeps kicking the proverbial dog from Oatbringer and on because it's easy. 

I specifically hit this one because again, I’ll say if again. No. Taragavian is wrong. He is monster who excuses his awful disgusting actions away because he arrogantly thinks he knows everything. Even when things go wrong on his plan, instead of realizing, “Hey I might be wrong and causing more death” he doubles down on being an awful traitor. Taragavian’s words would be “Arrogance before compassion” or “Absolute Monarchal Tyranny over any attempt to listen to anyone else”. Taragavian is also kicking the proverbial dog, refuses to change how he sees thing, and does not and has not grown as a person any more than Moash has. And he doesn’t have the reasons for lack of growth that Moash has. 

Now for the rest of my response. Just read what Honorless said below, sorry for using you Honorless, but everything you said is what I think, but worded better than I would have lol. 

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

You are all ascribing agency to Moash, agency that he doesn't have. He's mentally exhausted and kept that way by social isolation and by magical tampering with his mind. At no point does he choose anything, just get swept away by others. I've already argued about his actions as a member of Graves' conspiracy under the Diagram and under the Fused in WoR & OB as actions taken during and/or directly after significant mental stress & depression, actions taken while/after indoctrination. With Odium, there's also an element of addiction plus suicidal ideation. At most, I could accuse him of weakness but after everything he's been through, that would be a very wrong accusation to make. Even if I were to have been angry with him, at this point, he's suffered enough, he's paid his dues, dude's literally nihilistic at this point, I don't think you can get any more hopeless or low. I'm still really surprised at the amount of fire and vitriol aimed at Moash.

 

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8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:
  • Nale
  • Ishar
  • Hoid
  • Thaidakar
  • Malata

OK, the last two are wild guesses. But I think, but this is wild speculation I can give no rational defense for, that Book5 will open with the duell and in due course there will be a way to save Roshar but at the cost of setting Odium free and Hoid will prevent it, leading to Jasnah making a serious attempt on Hoid's life.

Interesting theory. Certainly not the wildest speculation I've seen. Seems consistent with Hoid's previous comments.

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4 hours ago, Honorless said:

You are all ascribing agency to Moash, agency that he doesn't have. He's mentally exhausted and kept that way by social isolation and by magical tampering with his mind. At no point does he choose anything, just get swept away by others. I've already argued about his actions as a member of Graves' conspiracy under the Diagram and under the Fused in WoR & OB as actions taken during and/or directly after significant mental stress & depression, actions taken while/after indoctrination. With Odium, there's also an element of addiction plus suicidal ideation. At most, I could accuse him of weakness but after everything he's been through, that would be a very wrong accusation to make. Even if I were to have been angry with him, at this point, he's suffered enough, he's paid his dues, dude's literally nihilistic at this point, I don't think you can get any more hopeless or low. I'm still really surprised at the amount of fire and vitriol aimed at Moash.

I agree that Moash deserves some sympathy due to his circumstances. But I don’t think it’s correct to say that he has no agency. He’s a grown man who is smart enough and capable enough to make his own choices. 

He chose to kill Elhokar or Jezrien. He chose to accept Odium’s emotions-numbing deal. He chose to kill Teft, and to go after Kaladin and Navani. He didn’t have to do any of those things. He could have walked away, but he didn’t. 

I do feel sorry for him, and if he decides to do better, I’ll be rooting for him. But I also think it’s important that he bear responsibility for what he has done, including the bad parts.

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11 hours ago, Honorless said:

Why did he feel bad about it then?

When you were a kid, did you ever sneak candy or something like that? You knew it was wrong, but the only reason you felt bad was because you knew it was wrong. You didn’t actually feel remorse or a desire to do better and make things right.

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10 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

When you were a kid, did you ever sneak candy or something like that? You knew it was wrong, but the only reason you felt bad was because you knew it was wrong. You didn’t actually feel remorse or a desire to do better and make things right.

A pretty big assumption, and an incorrect comparison. It’s more like, as I already gave an example, when you act like an asshole while being drunk, and you feel bad but don’t actually address the situation or blame alcohol for your behavior. And I find, not just on myself, but many people, when given normal emotional growth (so no god took your emotions) people eventually realize what they did wrong (not everyone but a lot of people mature emotionally with time). Now secondly, the stealing candy part. I think a better example would be stealint a friend’s toy. I am a kindergarten teacher, this happens. And they feel guilt. First off because, like you said, they know it is wrong, however if I do something exceedingly simple like ask them how they would feel if their friends stole their toy, their guilt will overtake them. They feel genuinely horrible and apologize pretty heartfeltedly. Now granted, not always, but 97% of children will do this. Now if a god took their emotions? Probably not. They won’t have a chance to make the step from “I am embarrassed and ashamed” to “Because what I did hurt my friend”. Your example is something that effects no one, let’s be honest, eating candy is just vaguely against the rules and hurts no one except themselves. It’s a terrible example, and also makes extremely unfavarable assumptions about Moash. 

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1 hour ago, Jash said:

A pretty big assumption, and an incorrect comparison. It’s more like, as I already gave an example, when you act like an asshole while being drunk, and you feel bad but don’t actually address the situation or blame alcohol for your behavior. And I find, not just on myself, but many people, when given normal emotional growth (so no god took your emotions) people eventually realize what they did wrong (not everyone but a lot of people mature emotionally with time). Now secondly, the stealing candy part. I think a better example would be stealint a friend’s toy. I am a kindergarten teacher, this happens. And they feel guilt. First off because, like you said, they know it is wrong, however if I do something exceedingly simple like ask them how they would feel if their friends stole their toy, their guilt will overtake them. They feel genuinely horrible and apologize pretty heartfeltedly. Now granted, not always, but 97% of children will do this. Now if a god took their emotions? Probably not. They won’t have a chance to make the step from “I am embarrassed and ashamed” to “Because what I did hurt my friend”. Your example is something that effects no one, let’s be honest, eating candy is just vaguely against the rules and hurts no one except themselves. It’s a terrible example, and also makes extremely unfavarable assumptions about Moash. 

well I think wich of you two is right comes down to Moash, and I could see it being both ways, whichever it is though, we won't know for certain until later.

 

Slightly related note, I think some people are over-ephisising Odium's role in this, we've seen his effect is incomplete at best, OB's "why do you still hurt" and all that

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3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Slightly related note, I think some people are over-ephisising Odium's role in this, we've seen his effect is incomplete at best, OB's "why do you still hurt" and all that

That's a different entity, whose functions we're not clear on, so I don't know. Their effects were pretty different too.

17 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I agree that Moash deserves some sympathy due to his circumstances. But I don’t think it’s correct to say that he has no agency. He’s a grown man who is smart enough and capable enough to make his own choices. 

He chose to kill Elhokar or Jezrien. He chose to accept Odium’s emotions-numbing deal. He chose to kill Teft, and to go after Kaladin and Navani. He didn’t have to do any of those things. He could have walked away, but he didn’t. 

I do feel sorry for him, and if he decides to do better, I’ll be rooting for him. But I also think it’s important that he bear responsibility for what he has done, including the bad parts.

It's those circumstances that make all the difference in my mind. Those are pretty extenuating circumstances. His decision making was badly compromised with his mental health issues at the time, plus the mind altering magic. Emotions are pivotal in decision making, just as much as logic.

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3 hours ago, Honorless said:

Emotions are pivotal in decision making, just as much as logic.

Hasn’t Dalinar proven that you can choose to get rid of Odiums influence? Even if you make the argument that Odium met Moash at a weak point, and Moash wasn’t able to get free while under control, he could have chosen to break free of Odium while his influence was pushed away due to the Tower being activated 

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

Hasn’t Dalinar proven that you can choose to get rid of Odiums influence? Even if you make the argument that Odium met Moash at a weak point, and Moash wasn’t able to get free while under control, he could have chosen to break free of Odium while his influence was pushed away due to the Tower being activated 

...Moash clearly didn't want that. He wants to live without pain, and hardship. This is a common ....mindset of people who repeatedly abuse drugs. The core problem isn't the addictive quality of the drugs, but rather that the drug abusers lives...are...bleak, and it is hard to get over addiction, when all you want is to just stop feeling pain/hurt/awful all the time. Dalinar has two sons who love him, a wife who loves him, a spren to talk talk to, friends a plenty. He quite clearly, in the past, (you know when he was much older than Moash still) did not resist those urges. Moash, in fact, acts like an addict (much like Dalinar does). In Dalinar's case, he craved the Thrill, in Moash's case, he craves the exact opposite...the lack of the need to feel anything (because when he did feel things, everything was so awful, he felt suicidal, probably all the time). Also, saying that because one person could get past something, everyone could...is just...so unhealthy. I got past depression when I was younger. I don't tell depressed people they have to get over it because I did. I got over addiction (quite recently), I don't tell other addicts they have to get over it because I did. That just...isn't how it works. Some people can't overcome. Some people can't get past it, and, this is important : That doesn't make them bad people. We should pity them at worse, and empathize with them at best, not judge them, because we don't know how hard it was for them. We aren't them. 

Edited by Jash
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On 6/29/2021 at 0:13 AM, Frustration said:

He says he wasn't sorry for killing Teft, he was just upset he felt bad about it.

And here is the bit about Taravangian I was holding back in the other thread, It is HEAVILY implied that a lot of what Taravangian does is motivated by Pride, he refused to talk to Dalinar about Nightblood because of it, he refused to share credit, I think that the way he structured the Diagram, killing murders, civil war all so he could become King of the world, wasn't the best way forward, just one that appealed to him the most.

Yeah it's a big theme for his character. HE has to be the one to do it. He tells Szeth "I am the monster who will save this world" at the end of WoK. On the one hand he sees it as a great sacrifice on his part to do these terrible things for the benefit of others on the other he really wants to show the world they were wrong about him being a dummy. 

He has a lifelong insecurity complex from the doctor telling his mother he might have "diminished capacity". He still occasionally rereads that doctors note from 80(?) years ago to motivate him. He asks for "capacity" specifically on his trip to the Valley.  He clearly cares about others or he wouldn't have tried to save the world. He did a great job of keeping all his machinations a secret for many years which meant he couldn't claim credit, kudos to him. But the idea of HIM saving the world and being vindicated for a lifetime of perceived slights is a motivating factor. Like you said he ultimately gives into it. 

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19 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

Hasn’t Dalinar proven that you can choose to get rid of Odiums influence? Even if you make the argument that Odium met Moash at a weak point, and Moash wasn’t able to get free while under control, he could have chosen to break free of Odium while his influence was pushed away due to the Tower being activated 

Look at the two situations. Dalinar had time to heal, come to terms with and build his own identity free of his past deeds. He saw the new, changed him and recognized himself as truly being this good guy.

Dalinar had people behind him, who loved and supported him. He had a reason to try to change because he had people he loved and whom he had to support. He had responsibilities that he could not afford to fail. He had things to look forwards to.

Moash had none of that. It was slavery > guard duty > conspiracy > Fused camp > Odium. He has no one and nothing to turn to, no reason to change, no faith in himself or his capacity to change, he has had very little time to even process things by himself. As far as he's concerned, he's betrayed the one person who cared, he has no family or friends and his life is worthless.

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Moash had Bridge Four, possibly the most supportive, friendly, and yet broken group on Roshar. 

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47 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

Moash had Bridge Four, possibly the most supportive, friendly, and yet broken group on Roshar. 

After the Elhokar assassination (counting both the attempt & in the Kholinar mission, no contact with the group in-between) I don't think so, as he'd have betrayed them.

Before the assassination attempt with Graves' group, he did tell Kaladin what he was attempting. Kaladin changed his mind at the last moment and opposed them.

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

After the Elhokar assassination (counting both the attempt & in the Kholinar mission, no contact with the group in-between) I don't think so, as he'd have betrayed them.

Before the assassination attempt with Graves' group, he did tell Kaladin what he was attempting. Kaladin changed his mind at the last moment and opposed them.

After the attempt, I think Bridge Four would have accepted him back. After the actual assassination I agree that they wouldn’t have accepted him back, both out of anger and because he had actually broken the law. Though, because of their ideals and personalities I think that if Moash was given a proper sentencing for breaking the law, and he could somehow prove actual remorse, they might take him back.

Moash didn’t properly use his support group (Bridge Four). A support group can only help you if they know what you are going through. Moash only told Kaladin what happened to him, so nobody else could help him. 

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12 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

After the attempt, I think Bridge Four would have accepted him back. After the actual assassination I agree that they wouldn’t have accepted him back, both out of anger and because he had actually broken the law. Though, because of their ideals and personalities I think that if Moash was given a proper sentencing for breaking the law, and he could somehow prove actual remorse, they might take him back.

Moash didn’t properly use his support group (Bridge Four). A support group can only help you if they know what you are going through. Moash only told Kaladin what happened to him, so nobody else could help him. 

They all refer to Moash as a traitor BEFORE he kills Elhokar or joins the Singer army. Like, yes that hate becomes more pronounced after he kills Elhokar in battle (not a crime, it’s war, if they are held to that standards, every single member of Bridge 4 is a murderer). You are correct that a support group cannot help you if you don’t reach out, however, also no one reached out to him. Like, literally no one attempted to understand him or even contact him. I love Bridge 4, but they failed Mosh. Someone should have tried to reach him. For a group basically based on trying to include everyone, they turned their back on Moash pretty quickly and easily. It also strikes me as just…unrealistic. This is a group of former slaves, who probably in some cases did horrible things that landed them as slaves. I garuntee they, as a group, would be more willing to look past things then other groups. Like I think Brandon Sanderson kind of failed on this aspect of Bridge 4’s development, yes he had flawed characters like Teft…but I feel like..there would be more hardship, more behavior that was difficult. Half the members would have major trauma and trust issues. They transformed too completely and easily if you ask me, there would be a whole lot more Moash’s in reality. Now granted, I think they could have worked through these things, but I think the book would have been better if Bridge 4 was forced to have support meetings, mental health care, etc. (things that do exist, but I think should have been more involved in Bridge 4’s creation and existence)

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2 hours ago, Jash said:

They all refer to Moash as a traitor BEFORE he kills Elhokar or joins the Singer army. Like, yes that hate becomes more pronounced after he kills Elhokar in battle (not a crime, it’s war, if they are held to that standards, every single member of Bridge 4 is a murderer). You are correct that a support group cannot help you if you don’t reach out, however, also no one reached out to him. Like, literally no one attempted to understand him or even contact him. I love Bridge 4, but they failed Mosh. Someone should have tried to reach him. For a group basically based on trying to include everyone, they turned their back on Moash pretty quickly and easily. It also strikes me as just…unrealistic. This is a group of former slaves, who probably in some cases did horrible things that landed them as slaves. I garuntee they, as a group, would be more willing to look past things then other groups. Like I think Brandon Sanderson kind of failed on this aspect of Bridge 4’s development, yes he had flawed characters like Teft…but I feel like..there would be more hardship, more behavior that was difficult. Half the members would have major trauma and trust issues. They transformed too completely and easily if you ask me, there would be a whole lot more Moash’s in reality. Now granted, I think they could have worked through these things, but I think the book would have been better if Bridge 4 was forced to have support meetings, mental health care, etc. (things that do exist, but I think should have been more involved in Bridge 4’s creation and existence)

How should they have contacted him? He left warcamps with Graves after the attempted assassination, and it is not like they can call him or have means to find him (especially if they would be trying to not be found). The onus was on him to come to them, he knew where they are and he could try and come back. They would probably be harsh on him, because he nearly killed Kaladin (the one person that save all of them) and only good timing of his 3rd Oath saved his life.

Also bridge crews are not only slaves, some are but not all. Teft was not slave, nor was Moash. Skar was enslaved for stealing equipment of Highprince's bodyguards, Sigzil was pressed into bridge crews for nearly killing someone. Rock was sent to bridge crews for putting chull dung into Sadeas' food, but was not enslaved.

All Bridge Four knew after WoR was that Moash lied to them for months when planning assassination, nearly killed Kaladin and then ran. That is betrayal, so calling him traitor makes sense. And remember that Moash was not particularly friendly person, he rebuffed Kal's attempts at first, and was not really trying to make friends with others in the group only with Kaladin.

And things like support meeting and mental health care explicitly don't exist on Roshar (at least in Vorin kingdoms), so they could not have been involved in Bridge 4's start.I mean first part of Kaladin's arc in RoW is about improving and setting standard for mental health care (at least for some types of patients).

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Okay to start off, I feel like you....badly misrepresent every argument I made. If you do that again, I won't reply after this message, and you'll know why. Like, just so horribly misunderstood what I said. Perhaps that is an accident, but honestly you just seem defensive from my standpoint, and looking like you want to respond to a strawman argument instead of my actual argument. 

11 hours ago, therunner said:

How should they have contacted him? He left warcamps with Graves after the attempted assassination, and it is not like they can call him or have means to find him (especially if they would be trying to not be found). The onus was on him to come to them, he knew where they are and he could try and come back. They would probably be harsh on him, because he nearly killed Kaladin (the one person that save all of them) and only good timing of his 3rd Oath saved his life.

This one is your best point. I agree, contracting him would have been hard. Again, this would have been on Brandon Sanderson to write opportunities for them to connect, which he didn't, and he obviously wanted Moash seperated from Bridge 4. It is quite realistic that if Moash returned he would be immediately imprisoned, in fact I think that is like 99% likely, so I'm not sure how you expect Moash to have reached out either. Everything you said here can basically be applied equally to Moash. Oh, and as far as saving Kaladin's life...he could have just...not protected Elhokar. I think Moash would have tried his best (at that point) to not kill Kaladin also, by the way..although that is probably not the case for Graves. 

11 hours ago, therunner said:

Also bridge crews are not only slaves, some are but not all. Teft was not slave, nor was Moash. Skar was enslaved for stealing equipment of Highprince's bodyguards, Sigzil was pressed into bridge crews for nearly killing someone. Rock was sent to bridge crews for putting chull dung into Sadeas' food, but was not enslaved.

 I don't want to insert the definition of slavery here, but...let's be simple. Could the people of the Bridge crews leave the bridge crews? Answer : There was only way : If they died. Then, to-dah!! That's slavery, no matter what they called it. And I specifically said I wanted more diversity of the characters, because I think that is realistic. If you go to a modern day prison, you will find people like Rock or Teft who were in the wrong places at the wrong time, but you will also find actual hardened criminals. Are you telling me NO ONE in the bridge crew committed horrible crimes? That just seems incredibly unrealistic to me. I get why Sanderson avoided this, because it makes it easier, but I would have prefered for more complexity, as I said. And again, I want to make this clear : They were slaves. I really don't want to have another definition discussion on this forum. Go type "slave" in google. Then get out an encyclopedia. You know they were slaves. Stop. Just because they weren't slaves BEFORE joining the bridge crews doesn't matter, as the bridge crews themselves were slavery. 

11 hours ago, therunner said:

All Bridge Four knew after WoR was that Moash lied to them for months when planning assassination, nearly killed Kaladin and then ran. That is betrayal, so calling him traitor makes sense. And remember that Moash was not particularly friendly person, he rebuffed Kal's attempts at first, and was not really trying to make friends with others in the group only with Kaladin.

Again, this would happen. The whole point, mythos of bridge 4, shall we say, is that your past sins should be forgiven, but...that's isn't how real life works. They will still be deeply troubled people. As I said, but let me repeat, in a real life bridge crew situation, you would have a lot more Moash's with just...so much baggage. Or smaller baggages like Teft or Skar. I wish they had, as a group, had to deal with these kinds of situations, not only with Moash but many other members of the crew as well. Real brotherhood, like any real relationship is not smooth, and easy. There will be hiccups. There will be hardship. People will have troubles. You can't just give up when someone is harder to get along with, not and continue to act like your group is above it all, able to reach everyone. I want to be clear on this too, I think how the situation was written it would have been hard for them to reach out to Moash. i want it to be writen different, that's what I'm saying. I want Rock or Teft or Lopen or somebody to have a chance to talk to Moash. And it doesn't just have to be Moash, there could have been more exploration of people who did truly awful things in the past, people who didn't so easily trust the bridge crew, people who like Teft repeated past bad actions. I'm glad for what we got, but I wish we'd gotten even more. 

11 hours ago, therunner said:

And things like support meeting and mental health care explicitly don't exist on Roshar (at least in Vorin kingdoms), so they could not have been involved in Bridge 4's start.I mean first part of Kaladin's arc in RoW is about improving and setting standard for mental health care (at least for some types of patients).

This was your response that was the least...understanding, or favorable to what I had said. ...I know. Like, I read the books, I know there isn't. I think the storyline where Kaladin started dealing with mental health, support meetings, talking to each other, could have been moved up and started as early as book 1. I absolutely loved that part of RoW, and I think it as it existed could exist in book 4..but, they could have explored that even earlier. There nightly stew could have been a place where people really opened up. Heck, we discussed religion on my other thread. Like, I have experienced deep personal connection at campfires during religious camps. People were able to talk and get some forms of help. It was far from perfect (seeing a therapist would be better), but it was a form of getting help. I would have liked to see something like this as early as book 1. Also, on a personal level, you could have had individuals talking through things, you could have had Kaladin dealing with fall out of bridge members screwing up, or struggling with how to move on, maybe even a bridge member who commits suicide, all of this is entirely realistic, and something I would have liked to see. I say that Bridge 4 failed Moash, because...they didn't know him, they didn't know what he was going through, they didn't real out to him. When I was in high school, I was depressed, and I was eventually saved by my best friend, an amazing woman, who although I'm not as close to anymore, I will always credit with ...bascially stopping me from committing suicide. I didn't go to her. I didn't open up to her. She forced me to. She forced me to hang out with her. She forced me out of my house and my bubble. She gave me opportunities to reveal myself. Listen, I want Bridge 4 to be like that. I want them to be people who SAVE people even when that is hard, because I've experienced that. It happens. And I know countless people with similar stories to me. Everyone has that one person who reached out to them. Everyone has that opportunity. Who reached out to Moash? Graves. A guy who made things worse. Then Odium, an evil god. What if he'd had someone reaching out to him who could have pulled him another direction. And by the way, this doesn't have to be Kaladin, that dude has enough on his plate already, but waht if it had been. What if instead of suddenly backing out and betraying Moash at the last second (you could just as easily see it as Kaladin's betrayal and not Moash's); he had actually freaking talked to Moash. What if they had ended up letting it all out? It could have changed Moash's path, hell it could have changed Kaladin's path. What if what Kaladin needed wasn't someone like Shallan (as Syl thought) but instead someone like Moash. A brother to talk to about anything. Someone who could hug him as he cried. What if Kaladin and Moash needed each other? 

 

On 2021-06-29 at 5:36 AM, Honorless said:

You are all ascribing agency to Moash, agency that he doesn't have. He's mentally exhausted and kept that way by social isolation and by magical tampering with his mind. At no point does he choose anything, just get swept away by others. I've already argued about his actions as a member of Graves' conspiracy under the Diagram and under the Fused in WoR & OB as actions taken during and/or directly after significant mental stress & depression, actions taken while/after indoctrination. With Odium, there's also an element of addiction plus suicidal ideation. At most, I could accuse him of weakness but after everything he's been through, that would be a very wrong accusation to make. Even if I were to have been angry with him, at this point, he's suffered enough, he's paid his dues, dude's literally nihilistic at this point, I don't think you can get any more hopeless or low. I'm still really surprised at the amount of fire and vitriol aimed at Moash.

I am not surprised by the vitriol toward Moash or the excuses for Taragavian. People, consciously or not, blame poor people for being poor (even when it is out of their control). They will side with the rich privileged person over the poor suffering person. Excuses for the rich, and vitriol for the poor. I’m in enough fandoms to see this cycle repeated over and over. Also you could repeat this with men and women (see Shallan hate as an example). When I saw the “Shallan (insert something bad” posts everywhere, I didn’t feel surprised. When I saw the “Taragavian is actually Good” posts, I didn’t feel surprised. Moash surprised me admittedly, but I guess in the end it makes sense. He is poor. His life is hard. And he doesn’t “pick himself up” like poor people are supposed to do, don’t you know?

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Jash said:

Okay to start off, I feel like you....badly misrepresent every argument I made. If you do that again, I won't reply after this message, and you'll know why. Like, just so horribly misunderstood what I said. Perhaps that is an accident, but honestly you just seem defensive from my standpoint, and looking like you want to respond to a strawman argument instead of my actual argument.

Feel free to not reply to me further, but please don't assume I am arguing in bad faith. You have started multiple of your replies in this way (not to me necessarily), and just because someone disagrees with you, or has a different read of situation than you does not mean they argue in bad faith or are a bad person.

1 hour ago, Jash said:

This one is your best point. I agree, contracting him would have been hard. Again, this would have been on Brandon Sanderson to write opportunities for them to connect, which he didn't, and he obviously wanted Moash seperated from Bridge 4. It is quite realistic that if Moash returned he would be immediately imprisoned, in fact I think that is like 99% likely, so I'm not sure how you expect Moash to have reached out either. Everything you said here can basically be applied equally to Moash. Oh, and as far as saving Kaladin's life...he could have just...not protected Elhokar. I think Moash would have tried his best (at that point) to not kill Kaladin also, by the way..although that is probably not the case for Graves.

It would not be just hard, but completely unrealistic. You are suggesting they just 'find' a single person in relatively mountainous area, with a lot of ways to hide, who is also trying to not be found. How exactly could they have reached out to him, without it seeming like a stretch? At best they can try to explore the area on their freetime, but they are currently in the middle of war, so they most likely don't really have a lot of it. At this point also on Kaladin has a spren, so aerial search would require Kaladin to go with them which limits the area they can search. (I noticed that latter on in the reply you say that you agree that it is hard the way it is written to justify it, and you would wish it were written differently. I was replying piece by piece, and want to leave this section.)

Moash would be imprisoned, that is a fact yes. That does not change the fact he could have tried to return. Actions have consequences, and it is up to people how they deal with them. Don't get me wrong, I get it why he did not go back, but to expect Bridge Four to somehow reach out to him is odd, considering they have no clue where he went, no way to contact him and little in opportunities to search for him.

Kaladin not protecting Elhokar would have gone against everything Kaladin is trying to stand for. I can equally say, that Moash...could have just...not tried to kill Elhokar, and it makes just as little sense.

1 hour ago, Jash said:

I don't want to insert the definition of slavery here, but...let's be simple. Could the people of the Bridge crews leave the bridge crews? Answer : There was only way : If they died. Then, to-dah!! That's slavery, no matter what they called it. And I specifically said I wanted more diversity of the characters, because I think that is realistic. If you go to a modern day prison, you will find people like Rock or Teft who were in the wrong places at the wrong time, but you will also find actual hardened criminals. Are you telling me NO ONE in the bridge crew committed horrible crimes? That just seems incredibly unrealistic to me. I get why Sanderson avoided this, because it makes it easier, but I would have prefered for more complexity, as I said. And again, I want to make this clear : They were slaves. I really don't want to have another definition discussion on this forum. Go type "slave" in google. Then get out an encyclopedia. You know they were slaves. Stop. Just because they weren't slaves BEFORE joining the bridge crews doesn't matter, as the bridge crews themselves were slavery.

A soldier in war cannot just leave his post, that is punishable crime, does that mean that a soldier is a slave?

Bridge crews were members of the army, and so could not just get up and leave. Moash in fact mentions trying to run away multiple times and being punished for it, and that he was told that if he tried it again he would be enslaved. If being a bridge crew member was equivalent to being a slave, threatening them with it would have little effect.

If in the middle of WoK the war in Shattered Plains suddenly ended, the members of the bridge crews who are not slaves would be assigned to a different post or could leave military (I have no clue how exactly is the military organized in Alethkar, but I would expect there to be a formal way to do so). Slaves would either be also reassigned, or they could simply sell them, depending on what would be more profitable. But they could not sell bridge members who are not slaves.

Quote

Slavery, condition in which one human being was owned by another. A slave was considered by law as property, or chattel, and was deprived of most of the rights ordinarily held by free persons.

No one owns Teft, Moash, Sigzil or Rock and many others, hence they are not slaves. I am not trying to say that the conditions in the bridge crews were not utterly appalling, but they were not slaves. Horrible conditions don't equal slavery, even if the situations are similar.

And while you said you wanted more diversity in how they behave (which I agree would have been nice), you called them all slaves, which I disagree with.

1 hour ago, Jash said:

Again, this would happen. The whole point, mythos of bridge 4, shall we say, is that your past sins should be forgiven, but...that's isn't how real life works. They will still be deeply troubled people. As I said, but let me repeat, in a real life bridge crew situation, you would have a lot more Moash's with just...so much baggage. Or smaller baggages like Teft or Skar. I wish they had, as a group, had to deal with these kinds of situations, not only with Moash but many other members of the crew as well. Real brotherhood, like any real relationship is not smooth, and easy. There will be hiccups. There will be hardship. People will have troubles. You can't just give up when someone is harder to get along with, not and continue to act like your group is above it all, able to reach everyone. I want to be clear on this too, I think how the situation was written it would have been hard for them to reach out to Moash. i want it to be writen different, that's what I'm saying. I want Rock or Teft or Lopen or somebody to have a chance to talk to Moash. And it doesn't just have to be Moash, there could have been more exploration of people who did truly awful things in the past, people who didn't so easily trust the bridge crew, people who like Teft repeated past bad actions. I'm glad for what we got, but I wish we'd gotten even more.

I thought the window of Teft was a nice reminder, but I understand wanting more. But I disagree that they gave up on Moash, Moash through his actions made it clear he does not want to be with them, and they are not obliged to try and pull him back against his will.

And I don't think if he had a talk with someone else it would really change anything. Moash seems to me like quite a bull-headed person, and if Kaladin (the one person he was closest to in Bridge Four) did not manage to sway him, I don't think others could. It could be a nice way to expose more of him, before his Odium days.

1 hour ago, Jash said:

This was your response that was the least...understanding, or favorable to what I had said. ...I know. Like, I read the books, I know there isn't. I think the storyline where Kaladin started dealing with mental health, support meetings, talking to each other, could have been moved up and started as early as book 1. I absolutely loved that part of RoW, and I think it as it existed could exist in book 4..but, they could have explored that even earlier. There nightly stew could have been a place where people really opened up. Heck, we discussed religion on my other thread. Like, I have experienced deep personal connection at campfires during religious camps. People were able to talk and get some forms of help. It was far from perfect (seeing a therapist would be better), but it was a form of getting help. I would have liked to see something like this as early as book 1. Also, on a personal level, you could have had individuals talking through things, you could have had Kaladin dealing with fall out of bridge members screwing up, or struggling with how to move on, maybe even a bridge member who commits suicide, all of this is entirely realistic, and something I would have liked to see.

I think that is actually what was happening with the stew. They talked, they shared, they tried to offer support. We did not see a lot of it on-screen, but I always thought that it exactly what was happening.

And we did have a bridge member who tried to commit suicide, it was Kaladin. I think that due to his depression, Kaladin is actually one of the crew members who was most impacted by his time in bridge crews (from those we have seen at least).

1 hour ago, Jash said:

 I say that Bridge 4 failed Moash, because...they didn't know him, they didn't know what he was going through, they didn't real out to him. When I was in high school, I was depressed, and I was eventually saved by my best friend, an amazing woman, who although I'm not as close to anymore, I will always credit with ...bascially stopping me from committing suicide. I didn't go to her. I didn't open up to her. She forced me to. She forced me to hang out with her. She forced me out of my house and my bubble. She gave me opportunities to reveal myself. Listen, I want Bridge 4 to be like that. I want them to be people who SAVE people even when that is hard, because I've experienced that. It happens. And I know countless people with similar stories to me. Everyone has that one person who reached out to them. Everyone has that opportunity. Who reached out to Moash? Graves. A guy who made things worse. Then Odium, an evil god. What if he'd had someone reaching out to him who could have pulled him another direction. And by the way, this doesn't have to be Kaladin, that dude has enough on his plate already, but waht if it had been. What if instead of suddenly backing out and betraying Moash at the last second (you could just as easily see it as Kaladin's betrayal and not Moash's); he had actually freaking talked to Moash. What if they had ended up letting it all out? It could have changed Moash's path, hell it could have changed Kaladin's path. What if what Kaladin needed wasn't someone like Shallan (as Syl thought) but instead someone like Moash. A brother to talk to about anything. Someone who could hug him as he cried. What if Kaladin and Moash needed each other? 

But a lot of Bridge Four members were also going through traumatic time, and if you are dealing with something it is not that easy to reach out to others. And even if you reach out, the person has to respond, if they don't or actively avoid you there is little you can do.

Also we don't know that no one tried to reach out to Moash, you just assume it. The only reason we know about Graves is because Moash chose to associate with him, and we do know that others are still in contact with Moash and trust him (Lopen told him about Kaladin loosing surgebinding) as late as hours before assassination attempt. From what we see of Moash he did not even seem to be doing badly, he was fine only he wanted to kill the king in revenge and was convinced it was right. That is not something support of your friends is going to help you with.

Also Kaladin tried to talk to Moash about it before hand (at least from what I remember), he was clearly uncomfortable with the idea of killing the king, wanted nothing to do with it and tried to dissuade Moash, but Moash kept pressuring him until Kaladin relented (after being imprisoned after Adolin debacle). I can just as easily say that Moash exploited his depressed and traumatized friend for his gain (to be clear I don't actually think that).

I also think that WoR sets up what would become of Kaladin had he joined Moash quite well, he would become the kind of person that kills people based on his own feelings and his judgement. You know, like Taravangian or Amaram or Moash.

EDIT:

Quote
1 hour ago, Jash said:

I am not surprised by the vitriol toward Moash or the excuses for Taragavian. People, consciously or not, blame poor people for being poor (even when it is out of their control). They will side with the rich privileged person over the poor suffering person. Excuses for the rich, and vitriol for the poor. I’m in enough fandoms to see this cycle repeated over and over. Also you could repeat this with men and women (see Shallan hate as an example). When I saw the “Shallan (insert something bad” posts everywhere, I didn’t feel surprised. When I saw the “Taragavian is actually Good” posts, I didn’t feel surprised. Moash surprised me admittedly, but I guess in the end it makes sense. He is poor. His life is hard. And he doesn’t “pick himself up” like poor people are supposed to do, don’t you know?

Also I don't think poorly of Moash due to his poor background (which he did not have, his grandparents were silversmiths, making him solidly middle class), but due to his goals (only revenge in my reading, no matter what he tells himself).

And the only reason I think better of Taravangian is his goal, he wants to save people. Of course to him the sentence is, he will save people on his terms, which is what makes him a villain.

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Posted (edited)

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

Feel free to not reply to me further, but please don't assume I am arguing in bad faith. You have started multiple of your replies in this way (not to me necessarily), and just because someone disagrees with you, or has a different read of situation than you does not mean they argue in bad faith or are a bad person.

I want to give you an example of your bad faith argument, although

 

ly this time, you made your arguments in better faith, even if I disagreed with practically everything you said, but here, this one : 

1 hour ago, Jash said:

Again, this would have been on Brandon Sanderson to write opportunities for them to connect, which he didn't, and he obviously wanted Moash seperated from Bridge 4.

Here is what I said, now here is how you responded : 

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

It would not be just hard, but completely unrealistic.

A note (you edited this, so again, I think you made your arguments in better faith this time, I'm just trying to give you an example of what I'm talking about.) Like, your saying there couldn't have been a point in Kholinar where Skar, Drehy, and Moash intersected? Why not? If Brandon Sanderson wanted to write it that way, I think it would go pretty easily. Of course I'm not suggesting the Bridge 4 members literally look for Moash, I'm suggesting Brandon Sanderson gives them opportunity to interact with them, and then...reach out to him. Like all of these characters can fly. Running into Moash is entirely possible by random circumstance. They hide in the same stormshelter. They see Moash's fight with Lady Leshwi. There are ways to have them intersect. THEN I want the characters to reach out to him. Actually Skar, might be a good character to have reach out to Moash. I'm intrigued how that would go down. This is what I mean by bad faith, you seem to almost purposely misrepresent my argument. Again, you edited it, and your other responses were fairly good faith (this time) but in your previous post before this one, I felt like every single situation was like this, you took...random motivations for what I said rather than the ones I actually stated. Oh and Moash's family was murdered. He wasn't rich. He was working on the caravans, and not as the owner of said caravan. Like....did you forget that other things happened to Moash post murder? And he inherited nothing from them, because they were murdered for those things. He was poor. 

Edited by Jash
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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, therunner said:

A soldier in war cannot just leave his post, that is punishable crime, does that mean that a soldier is a slave?

Bridge crews were members of the army, and so could not just get up and leave. Moash in fact mentions trying to run away multiple times and being punished for it, and that he was told that if he tried it again he would be enslaved. If being a bridge crew member was equivalent to being a slave, threatening them with it would have little effect.

If in the middle of WoK the war in Shattered Plains suddenly ended, the members of the bridge crews who are not slaves would be assigned to a different post or could leave military (I have no clue how exactly is the military organized in Alethkar, but I would expect there to be a formal way to do so). Slaves would either be also reassigned, or they could simply sell them, depending on what would be more profitable. But they could not sell bridge members who are not slaves.

No one owns Teft, Moash, Sigzil or Rock and many others, hence they are not slaves. I am not trying to say that the conditions in the bridge crews were not utterly appalling, but they were not slaves. Horrible conditions don't equal slavery, even if the situations are similar.

And while you said you wanted more diversity in how they behave (which I agree would have been nice), you called them all slaves, which I disagree with.

*puts aside thoughts on human rights in the military with some difficulty*

You're wrong here, btw. They are slaves. They are explicitly called slaves. That's why Kaladin had that brand on his forehead, for being a dangerous slave who tried to escape multiple times. Sadeas owned the Bridgecrews. Explicitly owned. Dalinar traded his Shardblade, Oathbringer to transfer ownership, as an exchange, and then set them free.

It's not that a few of them were slaves and the rest were in the Bridgecrews as punishment either but that's an easy misreading to make. Those people were enslaved as punishment.

Also, what exactly does it contribute to your argument if they weren't slaves? If they were indentured or something? The conditions are still the same, it's just "technically" not slavery.

Edited by Honorless
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Posted (edited)

54 minutes ago, Jash said:

A note (you edited this, so again, I think you made your arguments in better faith this time, I'm just trying to give you an example of what I'm talking about.) Like, your saying there couldn't have been a point in Kholinar where Skar, Drehy, and Moash intersected? Why not? If Brandon Sanderson wanted to write it that way, I think it would go pretty easily. Of course I'm not suggesting the Bridge 4 members literally look for Moash, I'm suggesting Brandon Sanderson gives them opportunity to interact with them, and then...reach out to him. Like all of these characters can fly. Running into Moash is entirely possible by random circumstance. They hide in the same stormshelter. They see Moash's fight with Lady Leshwi. There are ways to have them intersect. THEN I want the characters to reach out to him. Actually Skar, might be a good character to have reach out to Moash. I'm intrigued how that would go down. This is what I mean by bad faith, you seem to almost purposely misrepresent my argument. Again, you edited it, and your other responses were fairly good faith (this time) but in your previous post before this one, I felt like every single situation was like this, you took...random motivations for what I said rather than the ones I actually stated.

I mark my edits (outside of spelling ones) so you can see exactly what was added. I mostly try to argue from in-world perspective, what would work there, so that is my base approach. I feel like if you say that author could have written different scenarios, we are no longer talking about the same situations and characters, so I don't think you can argue Bridge Four abandoned Moash when in-world they don't really have a chance to do anything to find him, they did not choose to leave him they simply had no option to do so.

For example you say they all fly, except they don't. Up until near end of Oathbringer, only Kaladin is Radiant and others have their powers only when nearby (although nearby is still something like 30 miles) so this limits how big an area they can search and they don't have improved eyesight so would need to fly relatively low making it even more difficult. (and squires most likely have poor efficiency with Stormlight limiting them further)

Moash was in enemy territory so randomly running into him makes little sense to me, especially when they are trying to be inconspicuous.

To see the fight with Lady Leswhi they would first need to find him, and at that point they are weeks away from warcamps and seem to simply be traveling trades (having stolen carts like that).

Ultimately if the situations were wildly different than what is in the books, then yes I would be curious about such a meeting. But I don't think you can use lack of meeting between Bridge Four and Moash as evidence of them abandoning him.

A question, why would Skar be a good character to reach out to Moash? The only thing I see they have in common is being good fighters, but little else, so he does not seem like an obvious choice.

54 minutes ago, Jash said:

 Oh and Moash's family was murdered. He wasn't privileged. If your family can easily be murdered by the state and you can't do anything about it, you aren't priviliged. I have to add this because I'm so tired of this. Moash was third nahn from what I can find, which yes...isn't a slave, but it also considerably far down this societies tiers of course, importantly, he...was literally powerless to stop what happened to his grandparents. 

Not being privileged is not the same as being poor. Compared to someone like a farmer in Hearthstone, he was privileged, compared to someone of even seventh dahn he was not. Generally he should be a second nahn (as children inherit the highest nahn, with some exceptions) and his grandparents were second nahn.

He was also powerless to stop what happened because he was not even there when it happened. Maybe he could have done something (appeal on their behalf), maybe not but we cannot know.

30 minutes ago, Honorless said:

*puts aside thoughts on human rights in the military with some difficulty*

You're wrong here, btw. They are slaves. They are explicitly called slaves. That's why Kaladin had that brand on his forehead, for being a dangerous slave who tried to escape multiple times. Sadeas owned the Bridgecrews. Explicitly owned. Dalinar traded his Shardblade, Oathbringer to transfer ownership, as an exchange, and then set them free.

No, they are not slaves. Lopen has a slave mark, Rock, Teft and others don't. Moash literally says he was threatened with being made slaves if he tried running away again, which makes no sense if he was already a slave.

Quote

Moash hesitated, then nodded. 'Some of those who joined with me did become soldiers, but most of us got sent to the bridge crews.' He glanced at Kaladin, expression growing dark. 'This plan of yours had better work, lordling. Last time I ran away, I got a beating. I was told if I tried again, I'd get a slave's mark instead.' EDIT: (tWoK, chapter 46, pg. 723)

Again, I am not saying none of them were slaves, or that their situation was not horrible, but it is simply not true that all bridge crews are all slaves. Sadeas does treat them as if they were slaves, which does complicate matters, but Dalinar trading his Shardblade can also be understood as a compensation for lost men. Sadeas transfers men from his command to Dalinar's, and receives Shardblade as a compensation for lost strength.

EDIT: To clarify further, if someone buys the company I work for, the new ownership can promote me and influence my standing. That does not mean I am a property of the company (even if for whatever reason I could not break my contract with them).

EDIT 2:

Quote
31 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Also, what exactly does it contribute to your argument if they weren't slaves? If they were indentured or something? The conditions are still the same, it's just "technically" not slavery.

It was not supposed to contribute my argument, merely correct factually wrong statement. Calling all bridge crew members a 'former group of slaves' is factually not true. They did go through deeply traumatizing events from which they had little way of escaping, but no one exercised such control over their day-to-day lives they would if they were slaves. They were members of military assigned utterly horrible dehumanizing duty, yes.

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1 hour ago, therunner said:

No, they are not slaves. Lopen has a slave mark, Rock, Teft and others don't. Moash literally says he was threatened with being made slaves if he tried running away again, which makes no sense if he was already a slave.

Again, I am not saying none of them were slaves, or that their situation was not horrible, but it is simply not true that all bridge crews are all slaves. Sadeas does treat them as if they were slaves, which does complicate matters, but Dalinar trading his Shardblade can also be understood as a compensation for lost men. Sadeas transfers men from his command to Dalinar's, and receives Shardblade as a compensation for lost strength.

EDIT: To clarify further, if someone buys the company I work for, the new ownership can promote me and influence my standing. That does not mean I am a property of the company (even if for whatever reason I could not break my contract with them).

EDIT 2:

It was not supposed to contribute my argument, merely correct factually wrong statement. Calling all bridge crew members a 'former group of slaves' is factually not true. They did go through deeply traumatizing events from which they had little way of escaping, but no one exercised such control over their day-to-day lives they would if they were slaves. They were members of military assigned utterly horrible dehumanizing duty, yes.

Hmm... are you sure that isn't just threatening to brand them slaves rather than contractually slaves for a period (if they survive that long, period of indentured hard labour kind of deal) thing? They had to survive a certain impossible no. of Bridgeruns to be free men, iirc

Their membership comprised of deserters, criminals, foreigners who got swindled to poverty or were prisoners of war and homeless broke people, one would assume they were slaves.

If you're right then gulags would be more accurate comparison.

Regardless, they were cannon fodder and expendable. How it was simply more cost effective for them to die. We saw why Bridge 4 was the "unlucky" Bridgecrew.

The company analogy doesn't work because you trying to leave the company won't be a criminal offense, the Bridgecrews don't have that. They're just legally not slaves, but they effectively pretty much were and kept that way with the system in place.

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Hmm... are you sure that isn't just threatening to brand them slaves rather than contractually slaves for a period (if they survive that long, period of indentured hard labour kind of deal) thing? They had to survive a certain impossible no. of Bridgeruns to be free men, iirc

Their membership comprised of deserters, criminals, foreigners who got swindled to poverty or were prisoners of war and homeless broke people, one would assume they were slaves.

I read it as threatening them with actually making him a slave, i.e. tenth dahn, worse wages and everything. (EDIT: However, it has been a while since I read it fully, so I am not fully sure (and I am not sure if that is even addressed in book).) Just because a lot of crew members were low on the social ladder, does not make them slaves. Assigning risky duty to deserters and criminals is not outlandish (even though it is immoral).

And if I remember correctly they had to survive certain number of bridge runs to leave bridge crews, not necessarily to be free, i.e. If they were a member of military beforehand, they would get assigned to a different post (or maybe could ask to formally leave military), if they were slaves they would still be slaves, just not in bridge crew.

18 minutes ago, Honorless said:

If you're right then gulags would be more accurate comparison.

That is a good comparison, and close to something I was trying to go for.

18 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The company analogy doesn't work because you trying to leave the company won't be a criminal offense, the Bridgecrews don't have that. They're just legally not slaves, but they effectively pretty much were and kept that way with the system in place.

The company analogy was meant to highligtht that I can be technically 'bought' despite not being a slave. Dalinar bought bridge crews (people, material, everything) but from this it does not follow every crew member is a slave (i.e. they could not be bought outside of this context).

I agree that the position crew members were in effectively erased a lot of differences, but that was a function of the situation not their social standing (or status as slave). While in bridge crews it matters little if you are a slave or a free man, everyone needs to deal with the same 'bad' situation (non-slaves would get paid more though), however the moment such situation would end (i.e. end of war) the differences would again become very important.

To summarize my point, their bad situation had little to do with some of them being slaves, and much more to do with nature of bridge crews under Sadeas.

18 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Regardless, they were cannon fodder and expendable. How it was simply more cost effective for them to die. We saw why Bridge 4 was the "unlucky" Bridgecrew.

I have trouble understanding these, what did you mean by it?

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