Jash

Moash, and the fans who hate him : Part 2

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Welp, I finished the book. To start, if you want to simply write, “I hate Moash because he killed Teft” I reluctantly have to agree. I may have thrown my book across the room and stalked around my house while my partner asked what was wrong yesterday. However…

After taking some time, I still hope Moash makes the turn to the side of good. If Kaladin forgave Moash for killing Teft, can you imagine how powerful that would be? Anyways, I still saw moments. As soon as Navani + the Sibling filled the tower with their light, Moash starts regretting stuff. He is controlled y’all, at least to an extent. That doesn’t free him of guilt. He would have to do some major work, and would need to start actively resisting Odium’s control to deserve redemption. I feel saddened still by Moash’s story. I think he still deserves pity, but I do understand the hate a bit more now. 

Next up, we started discussing Taragavian so lets include that. He became Odium and y’all read…that book, and still…understand him. Really? Seriously? How? Again, he is worse than Moash. Like…so much worse. He ended the book by already thinking about cleansing worlds. He is straight up, the closest thing to actual evil in these books. I seriously can’t understand how y’all can look at an ordinary broken man who has made the wrong choices and hate him more than…like the closest manifestation to the devil in our story. Am I missing something? A note : Dalinar is right. Taragavian is wrong. Taragavian is a monster. An actual monster. Oh and to those of you who think it, Taragavian had choices. He isn’t all knowing. He is arrogant and petty, he reminds me of Light in Death Note if anyone had read/watched that. When I see people say Taragavian did his best or that he had to do what he did, that frightens me. He didn’t y’all. He is wrong. His way is wrong. The deaths he caused were not unavoidable. He caused them. He has in fact now been proven wrong. Dalinar was on his way to defeating Rayse EVEN WITH Taragavian helping Rayse. Taragavian’s betrayal only caused more death and prevented nothing. He is responsible for MORE DEATH not less. 

Just real quick, a note in support of my theory that Moash at some point will turn good : 1. Venli. She went as about dark as one can go in our storyline, betraying her own people and giving into Odium. She was just so selfish. Yet, she started making the right decisions and was able to return to the side of good. 2. Lady Leshwi. An actual immortal fused was able to change sides. Again, lends credence to the potential for Moash’s turn. 3. Rabonial. She was so close. So very close to also making the turn. You know, a side note, I wanted her to bond the Sibling WITH Navani. I thought that was a possibility of where the story might go, her death was still beautiful…but I think it could have been more beautiful if Navani and her had formed a more permanent bond toward a compromise and peace. I know the series is 10 books long, and I am not sure that ending would have worked…but…it was so close. I believe, by the way, that no one is beyond redemption. Even Taragavian, who I hate. An arrogant man, who has somehow apparantly convinced a bunch of people that being a brutal tyrant is the only way to succeed. It’s not. Your wrong. He’s wrong. Sorry, I won’t budge on this one moderators. It’s against my absolute moral compass. Killing and causing wars because you think you are helping is just an excuse tyrants and monsters use. It wasn’t his only choice. He even midly realized on his “stupid” days he was able to think morally. Taragavian on his smart days, was essentially without empathy or morals, and that is wrong. Absolutely and completely wrong. 

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1 hour ago, Jash said:

Welp, I finished the book. To start, if you want to simply write, “I hate Moash because he killed Teft” I reluctantly have to agree. I may have thrown my book across the room and stalked around my house while my partner asked what was wrong yesterday. However…

After taking some time, I still hope Moash makes the turn to the side of good. If Kaladin forgave Moash for killing Teft, can you imagine how powerful that would be? Anyways, I still saw moments. As soon as Navani + the Sibling filled the tower with their light, Moash starts regretting stuff. He is controlled y’all, at least to an extent. That doesn’t free him of guilt. He would have to do some major work, and would need to start actively resisting Odium’s control to deserve redemption. I feel saddened still by Moash’s story. I think he still deserves pity, but I do understand the hate a bit more now. 

He says he wasn't sorry for killing Teft, he was just upset he felt bad about it.

1 hour ago, Jash said:

Next up, we started discussing Taragavian so lets include that. He became Odium and y’all read…that book, and still…understand him. Really? Seriously? How? Again, he is worse than Moash. Like…so much worse. He ended the book by already thinking about cleansing worlds. He is straight up, the closest thing to actual evil in these books. I seriously can’t understand how y’all can look at an ordinary broken man who has made the wrong choices and hate him more than…like the closest manifestation to the devil in our story. Am I missing something? A note : Dalinar is right. Taragavian is wrong. Taragavian is a monster. An actual monster. Oh and to those of you who think it, Taragavian had choices. He isn’t all knowing. He is arrogant and petty, he reminds me of Light in Death Note if anyone had read/watched that. When I see people say Taragavian did his best or that he had to do what he did, that frightens me. He didn’t y’all. He is wrong. His way is wrong. The deaths he caused were not unavoidable. He caused them. He has in fact now been proven wrong. Dalinar was on his way to defeating Rayse EVEN WITH Taragavian helping Rayse. Taragavian’s betrayal only caused more death and prevented nothing. He is responsible for MORE DEATH not less. 

Just real quick, a note in support of my theory that Moash at some point will turn good : 1. Venli. She went as about dark as one can go in our storyline, betraying her own people and giving into Odium. She was just so selfish. Yet, she started making the right decisions and was able to return to the side of good. 2. Lady Leshwi. An actual immortal fused was able to change sides. Again, lends credence to the potential for Moash’s turn. 3. Rabonial. She was so close. So very close to also making the turn. You know, a side note, I wanted her to bond the Sibling WITH Navani. I thought that was a possibility of where the story might go, her death was still beautiful…but I think it could have been more beautiful if Navani and her had formed a more permanent bond toward a compromise and peace. I know the series is 10 books long, and I am not sure that ending would have worked…but…it was so close. I believe, by the way, that no one is beyond redemption. Even Taragavian, who I hate. An arrogant man, who has somehow apparantly convinced a bunch of people that being a brutal tyrant is the only way to succeed. It’s not. Your wrong. He’s wrong. Sorry, I won’t budge on this one moderators. It’s against my absolute moral compass. Killing and causing wars because you think you are helping is just an excuse tyrants and monsters use. It wasn’t his only choice. He even midly realized on his “stupid” days he was able to think morally. Taragavian on his smart days, was essentially without empathy or morals, and that is wrong. Absolutely and completely wrong. 

And here is the bit about Taravangian I was holding back in the other thread, It is HEAVILY implied that a lot of what Taravangian does is motivated by Pride, he refused to talk to Dalinar about Nightblood because of it, he refused to share credit, I think that the way he structured the Diagram, killing murders, civil war all so he could become King of the world, wasn't the best way forward, just one that appealed to him the most.

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13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He says he wasn't sorry for killing Teft, he was just upset he felt bad about it.

Why did he feel bad about it then?

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Just now, Honorless said:

Why did he feel bad about it then?

Don't ask me I'm just the messager those are his words not mine.

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10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He says he wasn't sorry for killing Teft, he was just upset he felt bad about it.

That is the first step toward feeling sorry. When Venli betrayed her people, at first she felt bad about it, but not sorry. Through time that eventually changed to her feeling sorry. Odium’s influence is stopping Moash from having the natural process of guilt. 

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And here is the bit about Taravangian I was holding back in the other thread, It is HEAVILY implied that a lot of what Taravangian does is motivated by Pride, he refused to talk to Dalinar about Nightblood because of it, he refused to share credit, I think that the way he structured the Diagram, killing murders, civil war all so he could become King of the world, wasn't the best way forward, just one that appealed to him the most.

Wait we agree. It has happened. We agree!!! Yes, pride (or what I’d call arrogance), he thinks his way is the only way and is unwilling to work with others. And he is willing to kill everyone who stands in his way (which I’d call tyranny). What I don‘t understand is fans who…trust him like he is a god (even before he actually became one, and he is not a god they should be trusting). Same thing for Tywin Lannister-shippers or Tyrion Lannister fans who excuse all his negative actions and act like he is morally perfect (when GRRM himself has said Tyrion is his most gray character)  

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Don't ask me I'm just the messager those are his words not mine.

This is where I would scream "unreliable narrator"! He's magically mentally handicapped right now, so yes, still forgivable. And even before that, he was in a sorry mental state. He'd basically been indoctrinated into a cult.

Edited by Honorless
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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Don't ask me I'm just the messager those are his words not mine.

That’s how guilt works. When I used to drink (addiction talk, look away if you are fearful of it) I would feel guilty about doing bad things, but would refuse to say sorry (at times) blaming others for what happened or simply blaming alcohol. Then the guilt did its work, and I eventually realized I was wrong and felt genuinely sorry. If you entered my brain during the early stages though, it would have looked like Mosh’s thoughts did. People excuse their actions all the time. I’ve met many racists who simultaneously feel guilt for being racist while also still being racist and not being sorry about it.  They make a lot of excuses until they eventually realize the truth. I’ve seen the process many times of people realizing how bad what they have done is, and then changing. If you enter their mind before that change, it would look like Moash’s though. 

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15 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Why did he feel bad about it then?

Because Teft was, maybe still is, Bridge 4 and cannot be blamed for leading them to a sell out, like Kaladin. Moash knows loyalty.

But is Moash on the evil side? Now, you may argue that it is led by the evil god. But it is also the side that is fighting against slavery, that had gotten lobotomized collectively and whose home was stolen by traitorous refugees.

We will have to live with Moash being a murderer and a freedom fighter and a traitor to some degree. Just as the Stormlight Archive cannot be reduced to a story of good versus evil, you cannot do that to Moash either.

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22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Because Teft was, maybe still is, Bridge 4 and cannot be blamed for leading them to a sell out, like Kaladin. Moash knows loyalty.

But is Moash on the evil side? Now, you may argue that it is led by the evil god. But it is also the side that is fighting against slavery, that had gotten lobotomized collectively and whose home was stolen by traitorous refugees.

We will have to live with Moash being a murderer and a freedom fighter and a traitor to some degree. Just as the Stormlight Archive cannot be reduced to a story of good versus evil, you cannot do that to Moash either.

Woah, I love this Oltux. Succinct and exactly how I feel as well. Anyways, maybe responding just to agree is pointless, but it's so spot on to how I feel about the situation, so, I'm giving you major props. 

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12 minutes ago, Jash said:

Woah, I love this Oltux. Succinct and exactly how I feel as well. Anyways, maybe responding just to agree is pointless, but it's so spot on to how I feel about the situation, so, I'm giving you major props. 

Well, what I was trying to actually say is that it seems kind of silly to me to blame Moash to a ridiculous degree for something most characters would need to be blamed for.

I cannot, for example, get why people love Zahel. That guy straight up murdered his wife and advocated censorship. And he did know what he was doing unlike Dalinar. But a man who killed two people who were combatants gets visceral hate. I cannot repeat it often enough. Elhokar died during a battle he had been swinging his blade in.

If you wish for a perfect character in the whole Stormlight Archive, the only candidate I could come up with would be Ivory.

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I kinda sympathized with Taravangian's side of the argument in OB and in RoW, as far as he knew, he was fighting a god. It was a matter of survival vs extinction, any methods were permissible. But then that "save them all" came and... were those Taravangian's true colours after all? It put everything else he'd said into a new context. I think Taravangian's Lost Redemption is good topic on this, that's basically how I felt with where the story took him.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

I cannot, for example, get why people love Zahel. That guy straight up murdered his wife and advocated censorship. And he did know what he was doing unlike Dalinar

I don't particularly like the guy, but you do realize what Nightblood is capable of right?

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In your first topic, you were surprised that Moash is hated so much when there are characters who are objectively worse than him. But people don't hate characters based on how many bad guy points they have. Taravangian can systematically murder the powerless, Raboinel can create biological weapons, and Dalinar can commit war crimes while still being more sympathetic to the average reader because of what they represent in the series than someone who kicks children, murders drunkards, and convinces their friends to commit suicide.

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29 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

In your first topic, you were surprised that Moash is hated so much when there are characters who are objectively worse than him. But people don't hate characters based on how many bad guy points they have. Taravangian can systematically murder the powerless, Raboinel can create biological weapons, and Dalinar can commit war crimes while still being more sympathetic to the average reader because of what they represent in the series than someone who kicks children, murders drunkards, and convinces their friends to commit suicide.

I mean, Moash, at this point, appears to be Kaladin's primary antagonist, so...seems pretty important to the story if you ask me. Kicks children - Dalinar, Raboniel, and Taragavian all murdered children. Although I can't 100% garuntee it for Raboniel, I assume it. Kicking children is apparently.worse than murdering them? Murdering drunkards - Again, all three of the other characters also murdered drunkards. They murdered whole cities. Some of those people were drunkards. Convinces their friends to commit suicide - I mean, again, no direct evidence, but suicide is fairly common in post war and/or slavery type situations. I would guess many people committed suicide based on the other three characters actions. Oh, and when Moash was convincing his friend to commit suicide, he was quite obviously deeply under Odium's influence. I think he thinks Kaladin will possibly choose the same path Moash himself took (erasing his emotions via magic Odium). I think part of his mind is so warped, he thinks he is helping Kaladin. Again, I find Moash troubling. I just think he is also sympathetic. Oh, and a note, I like Dalinar (who has made major strides toward changing himself and is focused on that); and Raboniel (She is certainly more gray than I thought she would be. She saved Navani, and clearly has sympathy for others...she just...has lost it. She wanted it to end so bad that she lost it). I don't like Taragavian at all. He doesn't ever admit he is doing anything wrong, is so convinced of his own chull dung that he actually thinks he is doing the right thing constantly, and is basically just an egomaniac tyrant. See, I've seen Moash feel remorse and pain, I saw Raboniel feel that, Dalinar is constantly haunted by his actions..yet Taragavian spends a shockingly small amount of time thinking about the horrors he caused, and thinks about causing more horrors very casually (as logical). Granted, I did find him somewhat sympathetic at first, but...the more I saw of Taragavian, the less sympathetic he became. Granted, Moash has also become less sympathetic...but...I understand him. He is a victim. Taragavian...is not. No one took his family from him. In fact, he "successfully" protected them, yet he still acts like he does. Taragavian hasn't been broken by a god/society that treats him and his kind like dirt.

I think however, this is off topic, I came here to discuss now that I found out a good solid reason for people hating Moash. Killing Teft was awful, and I understand those who simply hate him for that. Unlike the kicking (he didn't even kick the child, I really feel like we need to stop over-exaggerating pushing into kicking) of a child, and the killing of an opponent who I didn't care much about...Teft was his brother in arms. His friend. That is a betrayal. Anyways, I cried when Teft died, and yet...I still don't hate Moash. I tried to, but....I just feel him too much. I've felt broken like him at times too. Granted, I never broke like he did, but my family has never been murdered, my friends turn against me because I wanted vengeance, and the person I looked up to betrayed me..so, hard for me to say what I'd become when a god came along and offered to take away my pain. 

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2 hours ago, Honorless said:

I kinda sympathized with Taravangian's side of the argument in OB and in RoW, as far as he knew, he was fighting a god. It was a matter of survival vs extinction, any methods were permissible. But then that "save them all" came and... were those Taravangian's true colours after all? It put everything else he'd said into a new context. I think Taravangian's Lost Redemption is good topic on this, that's basically how I felt with where the story took him.

Honestly, although at first I did find Taravagain sympathetic...I think when he had his second "smart" day, is about the time my sympathy ran out. I guess, I think he is full of chull dung. Simple as that. I think he reasons away why he "has to" do awful actions. I think I said this somewhere else, but...reminds me of Light in Death Note, only his darkness is hidden more than the far more direct author of Death Note was. But he essentially thinks the same way as Light does. "I am the hero who will save everyone. Everything I do is necessary to save humanity. I have to be logical not emotional while making those decisions. Also, emotions aren't important to intelligence (I think this one is the craziest one actually...do people actually think that way?) Necessary killing of tons of tons of people will somehow make this work. Also, I'm the ONLY one who can do it because I'm so much better than everyone else." In RoW particularly, I found Taragavian extremely unsympathetic. Like, him becoming Odium was the perfect place where his story was going (from my perspective). He already thought like Odium before he became Odium. Also he always said the reason he did what he did was because he lacked emotions, and yet...now he has tons of emotions...and continues to want to cause wars everywhere. He's just an arrogant monster explaining away war crimes. It reminds me of a documentary about those involved in the Holocaust, and how many of them still show very little to no remorse for what they did, and they talk a lot like Taragavian does. I "had" to do it, etc. 

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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, what I was trying to actually say is that it seems kind of silly to me to blame Moash to a ridiculous degree for something most characters would need to be blamed for.

I cannot, for example, get why people love Zahel. That guy straight up murdered his wife and advocated censorship. And he did know what he was doing unlike Dalinar. But a man who killed two people who were combatants gets visceral hate. I cannot repeat it often enough. Elhokar died during a battle he had been swinging his blade in.

If you wish for a perfect character in the whole Stormlight Archive, the only candidate I could come up with would be Ivory.

If I was going with morally ...ideal (no one is perfect anywhere), than I'd go with Rock. His ability to reach each person in the way they want to be reached, and his empathy toward...everyone, is spectacular. Wish Moash had talked to him at some point. Perhaps Rock could have found the right words. 

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13 minutes ago, Jash said:

I mean, Moash, at this point, appears to be Kaladin's primary antagonist, so...seems pretty important to the story if you ask me.

I'm not saying that he isn't important.

Dalinar, as a character, is someone who represents "Journey before destination." He conquered and murdered, only to realize that his entire life was a string of atrocities and start doing better. Taravangian was a regular monarch who discovered that the apocalypse is coming - and began doing whatever it took to save humanity. He has a much more utilitarian view of the Immortal words - to him, the Last Desolation is just calculus. No matter how many people die right now, as long as humanity survives at the end, "Life before death" is achieved because there are people to live. Raboniel is a mix between Navani and Taravangian for Odium's side. She will do everything it takes to get Roshar back to the Singers. 

Moash is the opposite of "Journey before destination." He doesn't accept responsibility for his actions, instead choosing to give up uncomfortable emotions. He doesn't have any reason to do what he does other than what Odium told him.  He has no desire to improve, only for life to be easy.  If there wasn't a narrative need for an antagonist to be someone whom the protagonists and readers know, from Oathbringer and forward, Moash could've been replaced with any random murderer from the street and serve the same function in the plot.

56 minutes ago, Jash said:

Kicks children - Dalinar, Raboniel, and Taragavian all murdered children. Although I can't 100% garuntee it for Raboniel, I assume it. Kicking children is apparently.worse than murdering them? Murdering drunkards - Again, all three of the other characters also murdered drunkards. They murdered whole cities. Some of those people were drunkards. Convinces their friends to commit suicide - I mean, again, no direct evidence, but suicide is fairly common in post war and/or slavery type situations. I would guess many people committed suicide based on the other three characters actions. Oh, and when Moash was convincing his friend to commit suicide, he was quite obviously deeply under Odium's influence.

Dalinar, Raboniel, and Taravangian are at the point where if you add more atrocities to their past, they wouldn't change as characters. That's what I mean by counting bad guy points. If you were a judge in a court, those would be relevant, and Moash would be tried for murder and possibly treason, while Dalinar, Raboniel, and Taravangian would be tried for crimes against humanity and war crimes. But as characters in a fictional work, D, R, and T are doing what they do to achieve something, while Moash just keeps kicking the proverbial dog from Oatbringer and on because it's easy. 

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Posted (edited)

You are all ascribing agency to Moash, agency that he doesn't have. He's mentally exhausted and kept that way by social isolation and by magical tampering with his mind. At no point does he choose anything, just get swept away by others. I've already argued about his actions as a member of Graves' conspiracy under the Diagram and under the Fused in WoR & OB as actions taken during and/or directly after significant mental stress & depression, actions taken while/after indoctrination. With Odium, there's also an element of addiction plus suicidal ideation. At most, I could accuse him of weakness but after everything he's been through, that would be a very wrong accusation to make. Even if I were to have been angry with him, at this point, he's suffered enough, he's paid his dues, dude's literally nihilistic at this point, I don't think you can get any more hopeless or low. I'm still really surprised at the amount of fire and vitriol aimed at Moash.

Edited by Honorless
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2 hours ago, Jash said:

If I was going with morally ...ideal (no one is perfect anywhere), than I'd go with Rock. His ability to reach each person in the way they want to be reached, and his empathy toward...everyone, is spectacular. Wish Moash had talked to him at some point. Perhaps Rock could have found the right words. 

Hardly. Rock is ultimately a freeloader. I am sorry, but I have to put it that bluntly. He recognizes the need to fight Odium. He is faced with an extinction level event. Yet he lets others do the fighting.

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19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Hardly. Rock is ultimately a freeloader. I am sorry, but I have to put it that bluntly. He recognizes the need to fight Odium. He is faced with an extinction level event. Yet he lets others do the fighting.

He has a cultural & religious conscientious objection to fighting, and so he's trying to help them in other ways. There are lots of characters who aren't fighting. Besides, we know there's more to the Unkalaki from Dawnshard. There might be more to Rock's story, something different than the "main quest" but still important

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2 hours ago, Honorless said:

You are all ascribing agency to Moash, agency that he doesn't have. He's mentally exhausted and kept that way by social isolation and by magical tampering with his mind. At no point does he choose anything, just get swept away by others. I've already argued about his actions as a member of Graves' conspiracy under the Diagram and under the Fused in WoR & OB as actions taken during and/or directly after significant mental stress & depression, actions taken while/after indoctrination. With Odium, there's also an element of addiction plus suicidal ideation. At most, I could accuse him of weakness but after everything he's been through, that would be a very wrong accusation to make. Even if I were to have been angry with him, at this point, he's suffered enough, he's paid his dues, dude's literally nihilistic at this point, I don't think you can get any more hopeless or low. I'm still really surprised at the amount of fire and vitriol aimed at Moash.

MB

Spoiler

Even with over twenty Hemalurgic spikes in him Marsh still had some element of self awareness, and was able to attempt small decisions, Moash is nowere close to that level, and thus has much more free will

He came up with the plans to attack Kaladin, not Odium, not the fused, him.

 

@Jash the reason fans hate Moash more than character objectivly more eveil, is because they feel most upset by his actions, namely because they formed a deep emotional connection/attachment to kaladin and teft

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

MB

  Hide contents

Even with over twenty Hemalurgic spikes in him Marsh still had some element of self awareness, and was able to attempt small decisions, Moash is nowere close to that level, and thus has much more free will

He came up with the plans to attack Kaladin, not Odium, not the fused, him.

 

@Jash the reason fans hate Moash more than character objectivly more eveil, is because they feel most upset by his actions, namely because they formed a deep emotional connection/attachment to kaladin and teft

Which he did while feeling no emotions. The emotional control that Marsh (and Eshonai) experienced seem different than what Moash is experiencing. They are directly controlled and a portion of their mind is still conscious and cognizant, separate from the mind control. Both compared it to feeling trapped in their own body. Moash on the other hand, has his own emotional capacity directly crippled.

 

It's also meme in the community, like "I'm a Stick". (which I think is the biggest factor, not only are there legitimate things to dislike about the character, you also get a lot of positive reinforcement from other people in the fandom)

Plus Sadeas and Amaram are dead, they were the other detestable characters.

Edited by Honorless
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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Hardly. Rock is ultimately a freeloader. I am sorry, but I have to put it that bluntly. He recognizes the need to fight Odium. He is faced with an extinction level event. Yet he lets others do the fighting.

Some people are not fighters. He isn’t a freeloader. He did things according to his own moral compass, something we have no right to choose for others. 

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6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Plus Sadeas and Amaram are dead, they were the other detestable characters.

This is a good point and raises a question going forward. Who's left for us to hate heading into book 5? Rayse is gone; Lezian is gone; Venli's well into her redemption arc. With Moash being blinded and potential uncertainty about whether the new Vessel of Odium will keep taking his pain, he may end up harder to hate.

We're kinda left with just Taravangian, which makes me think that he will do something terribly awful in Book 5 (I mean worse that what he's done before), probably to Dalinar or Kaladin. Welp. :(

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13 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Plus Sadeas and Amaram are dead, they were the other detestable characters.

But Skar is still alive, that rat bastard! (just kidding, lol) But really, I agree with you, people like disliking a character for some reason lol. I think I don’t dislike…anyone. Okay that isn’t true, Taragavian. But that’s it, I basically like to at least to some extent every other character. Heck even people’s excuses for Taragavian are part of the reason for my distaste. I might be more okay with him if it wasn’t for how the fans treat him. Same in ASOIAF too, I used to like Tyrion before I saw his fanboys (cause they are boys, trust me). 

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