Shallan sucks

[The Cosmere Unaware]

Shallan, to me, is just incredibly frustrating to read. Hard to actually put my finger on it so I'll try to form my thoughts as I go here, but I've seen the sentiment mirrored quite a few times now. Critiquing her is hard without tackling mental illness as her condition and way of coping is a core aspect of her character, which makes it doubly hard as its an incredibly sensitive topic and offending anyone is the last of my intentions but here we go,

I don't find myself interested in whatever Shallan does but what happens -around- her and I feel that's due to the inconsistency of her character which, while intentional, makes it hard for me to care about her development. For one, I actually enjoy her jokes even if they sometimes fall flat because it's something I can use to identify her.

Her preferred way of coping by simply ignoring, or trying to ignore, problems is also deeply frustrating to me. That probably stems from the fact its a learned, repeated behavior she defaults to that builds on itself, making it more annoying each time she repeats it. A character that simply sidesteps issues is simply not a satisfying read, while her arc is in large part gathering herself in a way to do exactly that the frequency of shoving problems/trauma away is ruining any enjoyment I could have while reading her PoVs.

I recently finished my reread of WoK through RoW and I actually quite enjoyed her in WoK and early WoR and is at her worst up from late WoR to RoW, at the end of which is where I found myself actually sort of cheering her on, so maybe Brandon will endear me to her yet.

Edited September 13, 2021 by The Cosmere Unaware

[Meg]

At first I like to steal The Cosmere Unaware's disclaimer. ;)

I ... don't like Shallan very much.

Though differently -- in fact diametrically opposite to The Cosmere Unaware's impressions -- I had more problems with Shallan in The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance. Maybe that's because I'm kind of envying her: A young girl (16 years isn't quite mature, I'd say) coming from a secluded rural home, simply goes out in the world to "hunt" an important person and steal from that person. So I asked myself: Where did she get that strong self-assurance? For me, her behavior was just one big contradiction.

Okay, we learn more about her in Words of Radiance, especially in her flashbacks. That she was confined to the family's house, without (too) much contact with other people. That she'd gone through at least three major traumatic events (killing her mother at age 11 and murdering -- even strangling! -- her father at age 15), breaking her bond with Testament (and with this losing her only special, understanding and helpful friend), and other rather drastic experiences.
All the more reasons to lack confidence, IMHO. But no, she just grows and grows and learns in a speed that seems unreal for me. I see, that she was under a certain pressure to grow but anyways, it felt overstated for me.

I see, that a lot of her achievements are from creating illusions (not only the lightweaving but also the different personas).

Only later, especially in Rhythm of War, were some of her "mysteries" about her personas got resolved, and where I learned, that those are not (only) illusions but part of her mental problems, it was that I didn't mind her too much anymore.

Maybe, over the course of four books, I just got more used to her, and I want to know about her childhood as there still are holes.

Aside from liking or not liking Shallan in general, she (and others, like Kaladin, Dalinar, Taravangian and more) feels off to me because there (often) are no repercussions after having done bad or just dumb things.

I apologize for blabbing so much but I wanted to tell. :)
 

[The Sibling]

So you say that Shallan should just "Suck it up" but then you trash her for ignoring her problems?

Edited January 31, 2022 by The Sibling

[SymphonianBookworm]

I don't want to shame Shallan for her problems, and she shouldn't suck it up...

The thing that I hate about her that I noticed-

When Jasnah comes back from the dead...

Shallan just thinks, "Look at Jasnah! Of course she came back. Classic Jasnah. Damn, why did the Stormfather make her so beautiful and smart? She makes me so insecure." And then, "why is she bossing me around? It's not like I am her ward or anything..."
It just makes me so mad. Her mentor came back, and the first thing she thinks about is her jealousy... 

Edited May 19, 2022 by SymphonianBookworm

[Procrastination]

Honestly, at first I found Shallan’s perspective kind of…I don’t really know. Just not my favorite to read. As I read through all the books, though, I’ve actually loved her character more and more, after seeing more of her struggles. (Especially after RoW). I guess I’m just trying to say that I get what some of you guys are saying, but I personally feel her struggles are too big for her to just “suck it up”.

 

[CamilleDesmoulins]

I honestly kind of dislike Shallan because of how she treats other people. Except for her relationships with her brothers, who barely feature in the present day, all her relationships are all take and no give. She meets Kaladin by stealing his boots, never properly apologizes for that, and then decides to oogle him while he's in the middle of a catatonic episode. She begins her relationship with Jasnah by planning to steal from her and then demands she continue to take her on as an apprentice. She endangers poor people in Kholinar by playing Robin Hood and then immediately forgets about them, and never tries to help the poor again. Even her relationship with Adolin is based on him providing emotional support for her. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by CamilleDesmoulins

[Veez]

@CamilleDesmoulins 100% agree. I really enjoy Shallan's arc and storyline, but I dislike her for this exact reason as well.

[Duxredux]

I just read this, and I'm glad this thread exists (I had actually been avoiding it for a while because I didn't want to look at a thread titled "Shallan sucks"). I'll admit to being one of those people who kind of skimmed over Shallan's arc in WoK my first read through because I wanted to see what was happening to Kaladin and Bridge 4. I couldn't really root for Shallan to successfully steal Jasnah's Soulcaster, but I had no issues cheering on Bridge 4 as they raised hope and cheer while in devastating circumstances. I like reading Kaladin and Dalinar because aspects of who they are I would want to be like (not surprisingly, my Knights Radiant quiz results put me as first Windrunner 81%, second Bondsmith at 75%, with Lightweaver coming in at 10th, at 41% which is telling of my personality). I think we've agreed that Shallan sucking it up is not a good role model to follow, and watching her do it is hard. Frankly, a lot of stuff that Shallan does are probably things that most people would not want to emulate, and so it can be harder to connect with her.

Reading Jash and Kaymyth's comments gives me a different perspective to look at when reading Shallan. I don't need to emulate her to empathize with her or try to understand why she does what she does or have compassion for her. Her grief and the undermining of her self-worth when she tried to help the starving in Kholinar that resulted in them hating her for trying to do something good, that hurt a lot. Was she trying to play Robin Hood? Maybe, but as I think about it I know the crippling sense of fear, despair, and confusion when it feels like absolutely nothing you do works out and finding a causal chain of things resulting in what you hope for feels impossible. She tried, and even if her motives were off, she tried to do good and was hated and rejected for it. Have you ever tried to be nice to someone and then been snapped at? Were you nice to them anyway or did you snap back? I learned I need to try to see past the spikes and walls that someone who has the kind of trauma Shallan has, because hating her will not help her.

I think I understand better why her deep secret with Formless and Testament was so devastating for her. Initially that seemed well, kind of a let down compared to "I killed both my parents", but I think it's a different difficult. Over the course of the last few years, she's been undergoing really difficult self-reflection to see what is true in her life with Pattern as her therapist (yikes). The new truths sworn as a Radiant Lightweaver has bit by bit been a process of her reassembling what is true in her life, giving her a firmer grip on reality and understanding herself. Then she learns that all of the progress she's made as a Radiant in trying to repair her soul, she finds out that she's already failed at this once before, as evidenced by Testament being a Shardblade. The "truth" she had forgotten and hidden from herself I think may look to the adult Shallan as "I'm lying to myself that I can actually change for the better." That is a really, really hard thing to overcome, and anyone with addiction that tries to overcome it and repeatedly relapses can talk about the hope-crippling effect that having the knowledge that you've tried to change and failed can have. It's a horrible thing for Shallan in particular, because if she lies about not having "relapsed" she can't move on, if she acknowledges that she "relapsed" then she becomes directly aware of how tenuous her grip on her recovery actually is. The difference between murdering her parents and murdering Testament I think could be described as "I'm a monster and I can't bring them back" and "I'm a monster, and I can't do anything about it to not be a monster".

[SymphonianBookworm]

I find her quips annoying (not to be rude or anything. They just aren't my style).

I was so annoyed at her for stealing Kaladin's boots and acting like ever stormlight lighteyes acts.

Then she was being all indecisive over whom she liked more- Kaladin or Adolin. It's so main-character like... most main characters think that they are so "ugly" and that no one likes them, but literally, so many people fall in love with them... I was very happy with Brandon Sanderson not including anything like that in his books, but Shallan dissapointed me, since she was someone who was beautiful, but insecure about it, and had many people crushing on her and her having a hard time picking who she liked... There are many examples of this "main character syndrome"---for example, Alina Starkov, Sophie Foster, etc. I really dislike books that conform to the cliches and BS books usually don't, but Shallan did, which made me sad.

Also, as I said earlier, she doesn't have proper respect for Jasnah- or anyone really, and she never tries to change that. It annoys me.

Edited May 19, 2022 by SymphonianBookworm

[Cavani Kholin]

On 22/06/2021 at 7:08 PM, embisk said:

As far as telling kaladin to suck it up I totally agree he should.  His own self-righeous ideals about shardblades and eye color really hindered his progress throughout his life. 

You talk about Kaladin’s views about lighteyes as if he was born hating them. He wasn’t. In his flashbacks, he regarded lighteyes as heroic, courageous people. His best friend when he was young was a lighteyes. 

But then, ‘it’ hits the fan. Roshone starved his family, married his best friend and conscripted his brother to his death. Amaram, a lighteyes who was meant to be honourable and have never lied, killed his squad and sold him to slavery. 
Then, another lighteyes, Sadeas, shows no regard for darkeyed life and has Kaladin strung up in a highstorm.

At this point, Kaladin has barely even had a conversation with a lighteyes who didn’t harm or kill him or his companions. 
And you question why he finds it hard to let go of his beliefs? Old habits die hard, especially when those habits are forged by extreme oppression and circumstances. 
It’s pretty much the same with Shallan. 
Mental health cannot be pushed aside and dealt with later, in real life and on Roshar. That is one of the main themes of the series

[Treamayne]

On 9/13/2021 at 5:11 PM, Meg said:

At first I like to steal The Cosmere Unaware's disclaimer.

I ... don't like Shallan very much.

Though differently -- in fact diametrically opposite to The Cosmere Unaware's impressions -- I had more problems with Shallan in The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance. Maybe that's because I'm kind of envying her: A young girl (16 years isn't quite mature, I'd say) coming from a secluded rural home, simply goes out in the world to "hunt" an important person and steal from that person. So I asked myself: Where did she get that strong self-assurance? For me, her behavior was just one big contradiction.

On 9/13/2021 at 3:41 PM, The Cosmere Unaware said:

Shallan, to me, is just incredibly frustrating to read. Hard to actually put my finger on it so I'll try to form my thoughts as I go here, but I've seen the sentiment mirrored quite a few times now. Critiquing her is hard without tackling mental illness as her condition and way of coping is a core aspect of her character, which makes it doubly hard as its an incredibly sensitive topic and offending anyone is the last of my intentions but here we go,

<snip>

I recently finished my reread of WoK through RoW and I actually quite enjoyed her in WoK and early WoR and is at her worst up from late WoR to RoW, at the end of which is where I found myself actually sort of cheering her on, so maybe Brandon will endear me to her yet.

Similar, yet so different. I also find Shallan to be my least favorite main character(*) in Roshar.

Like TCU, I prefer Shallan's chapters from TWoK and WoR. I dislike the Shallan chapters in OB, and RoW was only slightly better. For me it basically it comes down to:

• Early in TWoK, Shallan really evokes the type of people I knew in the Military - first time away from home (especially an oppressive/abusive home) and really just a bit unpredictable and weird; mostly because they are in the process of trying to find how they interact with others when not under the (real or perceived) social pressures of home.
• The "Theft" subplot seems much more far fetched on the first read-through than it does on a second (and subsequent) readings after having seen the flashbacks in WoR.
  • If she had the strength to poison and strangle her father to protect Balat, then I can believe she would design such a long-shot plan to protect her family
• In the first two books, you can almost feel the tug inside Shallan between her instinctual reactions and the learned-supressed-reactions
• When Veil is introduced, it's just an illusion and "role"

Then we get to Oathbringer - supposedly only a week (or less) after the end of WoR. Suddenly, Veil is a competing identity, then adds Radiant for, uh, why? The DID, and Shallan in OB just never felt like a logical progression from the Shallan of WoR. I actually re-read her first few OB chapters (the first read-through for OB) because I was convinced I missed something somewhere.

Basically, I find it difficult to suspend disbelief for her situation. Dissociative identity disorder is rare, and DID where all the personalities are aware of all other personalities are even more rare; so without black-outs and missing time or a personality that is cut off from the others, all of her chapters feel to me like somebody trying to pretend they have DID rather than somebody actually struggling with this illness.

Besides, BS missed the chance at a great hook of giving us a chapter or two from one of Shallan's personalities without revealing it was Shallan right away (and having "Shallan" experience the fallout from blackout and missing time)

*Note: I say main character because I dislike Jasnah and Lirin more, but neither are main characters (yet)

Edited June 7, 2022 by Treamayne
Note / SPAG

[teknopathetic]

I like Shallan, and I worry that the dislike of her falls on sexism. Dalinar and Kal have a lot of similar overlap to Shallan, but they rarely get the hate. Dalinar was much MUCH worse when he was working through his demons. What has Shallan done? Told some jokes and tried to help people while developing multiple personalities? I just don't think the treatment of her has been fair by many readers. 

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I like Shallan, and I worry that the dislike of her falls on sexism. Dalinar and Kal have a lot of similar overlap to Shallan, but they rarely get the hate. Dalinar was much MUCH worse when he was working through his demons. What has Shallan done? Told some jokes and tried to help people while developing multiple personalities? I just don't think the treatment of her has been fair by many readers. 

She's BORING.

She never does anything remotly intresting.

WoK: Kaldain and Dalinar have multiple fights, taking on dozens on enemies at once, running a bridge towards a flock of incoming arrows while Shallan eats jam.

WoR: Kaladin 2 vs 4's shardbearers, and 1 vs 1's Szeth, Dalinar is on the verge of discovering the game that Odium is playing behind the scenes. Meanwhile Shallan sneaks around at night giving people money.

OB: Dalinar didn't actually do much until the end, but that climax is the best written in fantasy, kill me. Kaladin fights off Yelig-nar, a being with all ten surges bonded to a man we've hated since book one. Shallan spends all book in a downward spiral, accomplishing nothing.

RoW: Kaladin singlehandedly is saving Urithiru, Dalinar is mostly absent, and Shallan is sitting in a box looking at people's faces. And this is where Shallan is best.

[Anomander Rake]

9 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I like Shallan, and I worry that the dislike of her falls on sexism. Dalinar and Kal have a lot of similar overlap to Shallan, but they rarely get the hate. Dalinar was much MUCH worse when he was working through his demons. What has Shallan done? Told some jokes and tried to help people while developing multiple personalities? I just don't think the treatment of her has been fair by many readers. 

Dalinar was a monster, and I recognize that.  But his chapters are engaging, and I enjoy reading about his struggle and change.  He knows he was a monster, and it eats at him.  Were Dalinar a woman in the same position, she would be just as much of a monster, nothing would change for me.

Shallan makes some of the least funny jokes I've ever read.  I like reading her chapters, but man do I hate getting to her quips. The humor just doesn't land for me, and I dislike her not addressing her issues.  Were Shallan a man in the same position, his jokes would be equally unfunny, nothing would change for me.

Sure - maybe I don't completely understand Shallan's situation with all the mental health complications and why she choses to operate in the way she does.  But I can say the way she operates annoys me, even if I know it's not entirely her fault/choice, and that she is trying.  IDK...I know a lot of people don't like Shallan, but I seriously doubt it's because of sexism.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Anomander Rake
wrong word

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

WoK: Kaldain and Dalinar have multiple fights, taking on dozens on enemies at once, running a bridge towards a flock of incoming arrows while Shallan eats jam.

WoR: Kaladin 2 vs 4's shardbearers, and 1 vs 1's Szeth, Dalinar is on the verge of discovering the game that Odium is playing behind the scenes. Meanwhile Shallan sneaks around at night giving people money.

OB: Dalinar didn't actually do much until the end, but that climax is the best written in fantasy, kill me. Kaladin fights off Yelig-nar, a being with all ten surges bonded to a man we've hated since book one. Shallan spends all book in a downward spiral, accomplishing nothing.

RoW: Kaladin singlehandedly is saving Urithiru, Dalinar is mostly absent, and Shallan is sitting in a box looking at people's faces. And this is where Shallan is best.

Well, to be fair while I neither like nor believe her "character arc" (see above):

TWoK: Reveals the "Parshmen are voidbringers" and gives us our first glimpse of Shadesmar. Stumbles upon the Ghostblood assassination of Jasnah (though this is mostly luck). Really, I consider Shallan's sections in TWoK to be Jasnah's story - but since telling it from Jasnah's viewpoint would be too many spoilers we needed an outside view. It really makes more sense in that light.

WoR: Introduces and links the three of four main "secret societies" (Sons of Honor, Skybreakers, Ghostbloods; except the Diagram is revealed through Interludes and Moash), find Narak, finds the Oathgate and figures out how to work it.

OB: Drives away Re-Shapir, confronts Ashertmarn, figures out how to soft-manifest beads into shapes for moving in Shadesmar without the ship, learns to actually manifest items in Shadesmar and acts as the de facto Spren ambassador for the group.

RoW: Kills Iali and destroys the Sons of Honor, finds Kalak and gets Cosmere 101 training.

She does have accomplishments, but that doesn't make her chapters easier to read.

 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Well, to be fair while I neither like nor believe her "character arc" (see above):

TWoK: Reveals the "Parshmen are voidbringers" and gives us our first glimpse of Shadesmar. Stumbles upon the Ghostblood assassination of Jasnah (though this is mostly luck). Really, I consider Shallan's sections in TWoK to be Jasnah's story - but since telling it from Jasnah's viewpoint would be too many spoilers we needed an outside view. It really makes more sense in that light.

WoR: Introduces and links the three of four main "secret societies" (Sons of Honor, Skybreakers, Ghostbloods; except the Diagram is revealed through Interludes and Moash), find Narak, finds the Oathgate and figures out how to work it.

OB: Drives away Re-Shapir, confronts Ashertmarn, figures out how to soft-manifest beads into shapes for moving in Shadesmar without the ship, learns to actually manifest items in Shadesmar and acts as the de facto Spren ambassador for the group.

RoW: Kills Iali and destroys the Sons of Honor, finds Kalak and gets Cosmere 101 training.

She does have accomplishments, but that doesn't make her chapters easier to read.

 

I disagree with just about everything listed.

[Rg2045]

I feel shallans problem is the fact that she’s part of a trio of main characters  (one leads, one fights, one spies) with the other two having what they do be a massive part of themselves, while shallans main part is almost like an add on. Kinda like her chapters in tWoK and RoW.

She easily gets distracted and accidentally falls into the perfect situations. However shallan does gets interesting when she is doing the infiltration herself (not vail) IMO. RoW shallan withers up and is forced to grow or die. (Hardest book for me to read on shallan due to it going nowhere for so long) I hope her story is more interesting in book 5 because she is finally determined 

[Duxredux]

I'll throw this out there, Brandon's writing lectures on YouTube indicate that he thinks about 3 sliding scales for developing a character, that also can indicate how much a reader likes the character. If you don't want to read the  writerly behind-the-scenes stuff, similar to not wanting to know the details of how a sausage is made, then feel free to skip this comment.

Brandon has a simplified model of how characters have 3 basic sliding scales that influence how readers perceive, like, and relate to them.

Scale one: how proactive the character is. We like characters that try hard, even if they fail a lot, such as Wile E. Coyote. Do they drive the plot, or do they react to others driving the plot?

Scale two: the competitance of the character within the plot of the story. We generally like to watch characters who know what they are doing and show their expertise in the plot. James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, and many superheroes are examples.

Scale three: how sympathetic the character is. This is the extent that we can relate to the character or the character does things that we would laud. The cliche is if you want the audience to like a character, you have them pet a dog. If you want them to hate a character, you have them kick a dog. If other characters like them, or hate them can influence the reader. 

The fourth aspect of this is how these sliding scales move throughout the story. A character that is always top of competence, proactivity, and sympathy can end up feeling flat or boring if we never see them challenged or change. People can start with generally unlikable character that becomes a favorite as they grow in sympathy and competence, the example being Luke Skywalker transitioning from a whiney teenager to a padawan that saves the day in Episode 4. You can also have characters that regress on a scale, and watching them lose sympathy or competence can also engage a reader, though that's harder to do well.

My point in bringing this up is not to prove one way or another how likable Shallan is, have other posters build their own scales for why Shallan does or does not work, or to have people suggest from their interpretation of Shallan on these sliders that Brandon deliberately designed Shallan to be liked or disliked. What I do hope to indicate is that what makes a character likable is multifaceted and for someone as complex as Shallan, her likability is similarly multifaceted and complex. I will say that unreliable narrators and a character that has their personality get more fractured and unstable as the story progresses will be harder for the general audience to relate to. Brandon's trying something tricky here. Different readers can have wildly different personal experiences and perceptions of her role in the plot, which is also complicated. Based on the three scales, different readers may have been focusing one one scale more than the others, for example if the humor fell flat and pulled the reader out of the story compared to someone that was engaged with her proactivity in trying to outthink the Ghostbloods while developing her Lightweaving abilities.

Basically, I think it's obvious that different people had different experiences with Shallan and that she is not a universally sympathetic character. Just... be careful with threads like this that you don't tell someone that their experience was wrong. It's probably obvious that I'm biased towards input that increases or broadens how much a reader enjoys and understands a character and a story. Shallan isn't my favorite character like many others and I still don't get what makes her tick most of the time, but I'm glad for the insight I've gained. 

Thanks for reading, I'll get off my soap box now.

[lostinbk]

*Spoilers, spoilers everywhere*

I can see why some people who have never experienced that sort of trauma would be annoyed with Shallan, but I disagree and appreciate how realistic she's portrayed. One of the tenets of SA is Journey before Destination, and it reflects in every character arc. It's what the books are about, but with cool magic attached. Life is messy, people don't do a great job at life sometimes, and it's easier to give up and say well- can't be perfect and do everything right, so guess I'll just give up and rot here. She did have a moment like that, when Wit came to see her. She is not doing that the rest of the series, but I think people think that and get so annoyed at her because of how her Journey is framed.

She's a foil to the other characters, which I think is another reason why some people don't like her. Every character starts out with different levels of support and challenges. Childhood is where you learn things like boundaries and a sense of who you are, your identity and self worth. A lot of how we learn to deal with problems is shown to us in media (like Brandon's books or TV shows) or role models in our lives. Shallan didn't have any of that, she wasn't even allowed out of the house until she killed her own Father and then she stepped up for her family to try to get them out of a dire situation, for which she was extremely ill prepared. She did have her brothers but they aren't exactly healthy role models.

Her journey is very similar to Dalinar's. Like Dalinar, she murders someone dear to her by accident. Unlike Dalinar, it wasn't out of rage, but self defense. She was also a very small child. Dalinar was able able to face his pain (one of my favorite moments ever), but what people don't seem to consider is he DID give into his pain- for many years. Missed out on half the life of his sons before he was able to move on, after help from Cultivation. By time he's telling Odium he cannot have his pain, he had already had experience and lived much of life, and also found the Way of Kings. He has also been a leader for most of his life, and has tools of discipline he's followed for many years once he was able to function again. The way his story was framed was very sympathetic because you aren't reading several books about how every day he's getting drunk and failing his sons. For Shallan, you are reading her struggle as she goes through it slower than you'd like her to.

She starts splitting in personalities because the weight of her trauma was making her unable to continue on without breaking. There were no medications, psychologists or even friends to help her, until she found Adolin, Jasnah and Kaladin. People do not have build in knowledge they are born with to process such an extreme circumstance. But even though she does have friends now, they have zero understanding how to help her because no one's parents tried to kill them and they didn't have to kill their parents. It's an issue she alone has to figure out (with some advice from Wit) and has no idea how to deal with it because it's so incredibly painful, it feels like she will die if she faces it. She "sucked it up" and has been, for the majority of the series. It has nothing to do with selfishness or your force of will. A person can only function so long by bottling everything up, but to roll out what you've been through and heal might take more time than she's afforded by facing a Desolation, even if she had the knowledge and tools of how to heal.  

I think what people are wanting to see is her big heroic moment that we see Kaladin accomplish at the 11th hour- that she's able to use all her pain and cumulate it into a victory. Or something similar to Dalinar when he faces what he's done and becomes better. (I hope Shallan does talk to Dalinar, he would understand better than most.) Her journey seems to be even slower than Kaladin's, and there's not a ton of relief in her advancing in her oaths to face a truth. It doesn't involve a lot of action usually, the most action occurs when she's trying to do spy things. I think considering her circumstances, she does go beyond her limit to help because people she loves and Roshar needs her, which is why Veil and Radiant come out.   

But the hope I see for her character is when she draws people, she reflects the goodness or qualities they could possess back to them. I think it touches both the Cognitive and Spiritual Realm when she does this. I hope we see more of that as she heals so she can help other people a little like Cultivation does, by trimming away some of the old parts that aren't working for them and give them a new sense of identity, so they might flourish. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by lostinbk

[Duxredux]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:16 AM, teknopathetic said:

I like Shallan, and I worry that the dislike of her falls on sexism. Dalinar and Kal have a lot of similar overlap to Shallan, but they rarely get the hate. Dalinar was much MUCH worse when he was working through his demons. What has Shallan done? Told some jokes and tried to help people while developing multiple personalities? I just don't think the treatment of her has been fair by many readers. 

I hesitate to bring this topic back up, but I've been thinking about this comment. I think if sexism is part of the issue with how Shallan is viewed, then it goes very deep. I find that if I look for injustice or discrimination, I can find it even if it never was intended or actually present, though that said some very damaging discrimination is unintentional. It's a big can of worms. So... I hesitate.

Shallan's story in some ways is about sexism, because she is the primary viewpoint in a world that has taken away her ability to use one of hands, dictated how she should live in terms of propriety, and is the one that has to navigate those social constructs. Kaladin's issue is with class difference and was constantly getting into fights because he wouldn't conform unless it would get him what he wanted. His antagonists were clearly defined, Roshone, Amaram, and Sadeas, and much of that went away when Kaladin became a Lighteyes (and because they're all dead). Shallan... doesn't have an antagonist that forces her into her proper feminine role, except Vorin society itself and her own upbringing. I could be missing things, but Navani and Jasnah's stories don't have this element, in part because they have mastered how to use the "idealized Alethi woman" as a tool to exert influence on others, in part because they are the top of the top and can either ignore or potentially define propriety as they choose without the backlash that Shallan would have. On Roshar Shallan couldn't actually have a combat role until she totally broke society by being one of the lost Radiants returned, and I think media glorifies violence and combat. Incidentally, I'm not implying that we need to get more women into the role of "punchy-punchy, stabby-stabby", but that I think there may be too much of glorifying men in those roles, but that's a value judgment and not what I want to focus on. Going back to Roshar and the Masculine and Feminine Arts, Shallan unfortunately is somewhat required by propriety to be inactive during a war. I mean, look at the division of the Arts:

Masculine

• combat^[3] (facetiously, "hitting things", according to Navani Kholin)^[9]
• tactics^[21]
• politics^[22]
• carpentry^[23]
• commerce^[24]

Feminine

• reading and writing^[17]
• painting and drawing^[18]
• science^[17] (e.g., zoology, botany, and natural history)^[19]
• logic^[17]
• playing musical instruments^[20]

So... she actually has to fight against societal norms or find workarounds to really interact with a war story in ways that the male characters don't. Anyway, if people agree that sexism is part of her character arc, then there may be a divide in reader experience based on how they view or have experienced sexism in general.

Aaand if you start looking for sexism then their spren and Oaths are a large part of their arc and...

Kaladin - Honorspren. Protect others. The perfect soldier.

Dalinar - Stormfather, holds the remnant of Honor's power. Unite the nations. The perfect general or leader.

Shallan - Liespren, though they prefer to be called Cryptics. Lie to others, disguise yourself, and stop lying to yourself. The perfect... wait, what?

Many of the Orders seem to exemplify a particular role to be lauded. Healers, Police, Soldiers, Engineers, Scientists... I'm not sure what that would be for the Lightweavers. Spies? Saboteurs? That's what Shallan's arc currently seems to be leading her towards, roles that can be cool but morally debatable (as a step to the side, Shalash is Herald of Beauty, and is known as the Artist in the Dragonsteel Entertainment files. Outside of a Desolation, Lightweavers could be amazing artists with Illumination and Soulcasting, but art was the starting point for Shallan, not what she's progressing towards). Yeah, this could look bad depending on how you spin it, and while I'm pretty sure Brandon baked in some sexism into Roshar, I don't want to make a call on how deeply it was meant to go. This is my third monster post on this topic, and I'm sure that for some people that didn't like Shallan it wasn't about sexism, but I think it may be incorrect to say that sexism isn't part of how Shallan is viewed. It just is complicated.

Also, as a guy writing a post about a female character dealing with sexism written by another guy, take it with a grain of salt, and if any girls want to correct anything, feel free. I'm trying to understand, okay?

 

I might be adding too many things, but I will note that we know that Shallan's humor was developed as a defense mechanism in a broken home tainted by an Unmade. Her humor was relied on by her siblings, some of whom were older than her, as a method of coping for a large percentage of Shallan's life. That reliance perhaps meant that they could break, but she couldn't. No, I don't usually laugh at her jokes, but I could make a case that I wasn't necessarily supposed to. Frankly, since she was a child Shallan's life has been seriously messed up, her family life is messed up, and honestly the state of those relationships do make me uncomfortable because I don't want anything like that to happen to anyone within my own relationships. This isn't to say that it broken homes and horrible family choices don't happen, and that it's a very real nightmare for some people. Ever seen a video of a car crash or a train wreck? Shallan's backstory kind of feels like that, it's horrible but hard to look away from and it makes you uncomfortable thinking about how it can actually happen (well, not the supernatural stuff, but certainly the abuse). Dalinar's treatment of Evi bothers me for similar reasons. Anyway, I've rambled on and should stop.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Duxredux
added another thought

[Wandering Drow]

Disclaimer: I am not a therapist. I do however have several close friends and family members who are, so what little info I have about this kind of stuff is mostly true, to the extent of my knowledge. I also am in no way trying to judge anyone based on their opinions. Shallan is a fictional character, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whether or not I agree with them. 
Personally, I really like Shallan, for a few different reasons. 
Firstly, one thing I haven’t seen people talk about here is the science behind trauma. When you experience something traumatic, especially something tied to your family or other close relationships, it doesn’t just become a ‘bad memory’. It physically changes other parts of your brain. Your brain actually buries those memories and changes how your body works and responds to stimulus, especially anything related to the trauma. Since you now have heightened and extreme reactions to things similar to that trauma, dealing with it and experiencing it isn’t just like remembering your last birthday party, you have to relive extremely painful events that your brain has trained itself to see as way more painful as it was. You actually make those memories more painful. 
Now, considering Shallan, she is interesting because every Ideal she swears means she has to confront one of her many, many traumatic memories, and then she can’t forget it again later, something your brain is designed to do. Her progression through power isn’t about vowing to protect people or realizing you can’t protect everyone, which is growth for Kaladin. Her progression is about forcing her mind to acknowledge things it has literally changed itself in an attempt to forget those memories and protect Shallan from them. Her progression is a much more painful and serious process. And, since she can’t forget it again later, she has to constantly live with those memories, which probably resurface constantly. Knowing this, is it any wonder she created alternate personas to cope with those memories? Seeing this growth and development of having to unbury deep trauma is something I can really relate to and think is really interesting to read. 
Secondly, compared to the other characters, Shallan’s struggles are ones that as far as I’m aware are almost completely unique to her as a character. Sure, Kaladin and Dalinar are great and really demonstrate other mental illnesses, but those mental illnesses are fairly common across other fantasy. Very few stories accurately portray a DID main character this well. Most DID is portrayed in the media as a method of making the villain reveal be “the main character the whole time?!?!” or something like that, but Shallan is interesting and unique in that her DID is not a plot device, but instead an obstacle that actually makes it harder to progress forward. That’s a really difficult thing to write, and part of why I like Shallan so much is that BS did this so well. 
Thirdly, Shallan’s arc isn’t as action packed as the other characters’. Sure, action is fun, but when we have so many characters full of action packed scenes it is really nice to be able to sit back and have some more interesting things unfold, which is still very, very important to the plot. 
The last thing I want to address here is what other people are saying when they say they don’t like Shallan. The main two arguments are 1. She doesn’t do very much to further the plot, and 2. Her jokes aren’t very funny. Now, these are both totally valid reasons to prefer other characters. The second one is mostly opinion, but as someone pointed out they were originally a coping mechanism for her and her siblings during a time of trauma, so even if the jokes are pretty bad I like how they are included and demonstrate how she is growing. The first point I disagree with. I think she has done so much in every book to further the overall plot of the series. Sure, it may not be as much as the other characters, and maybe it doesn’t help the immediate plot, but it is important regardless. 
 

Now, I’m not trying to say I think you are wrong if you don’t like Shallan. Your opinion is totally valid, and I completely understand why you might say that. I really hope this post doesn’t come across as accusatory or judgemental, because that’s really not my intent. All I want to do is share my reasonings for enjoying Shallan and hope that I may help you guys to see a different perspective, even if you don’t share it. 
Thanks for listening to my rant!

[LordFlea]

On 23/06/2021 at 6:08 AM, embisk said:

As far as telling kaladin to suck it up I totally agree he should.  His own self-righeous ideals about shardblades and eye color really hindered his progress throughout his life.  And yes childhood trauma is very tough to overcome but she's had the world handed to her on a silver platter the least she could do is not get her salty ass tears on the plate.  Like I said, Kaladin too.  Being broken is only a reason to not find a purpose.  If one is thrust upon you like these two have had put your petty problems and quarrels aside and sad times and do your duty. Stop making it harder on everyon else.  Also the character discovery and self journey are important, yes.  I just feel like the points that are emphasized are very irksome points and stuff that anyone else that has gone through similar problems as Kaladin and Shallan wouldn't falter where they do, instead finding more purpose than problems in the current events.

Imagine being depressed then having to save the world, I dont know if that would improve your mental health necessarily. Also being expected to risk your life, being asked to take the lives of others and also you're a paragon now so don't do anything to tarnish the reputation of your holy order of Knights. 

Just saying that these are pretty broken people who have been asked to fight the god of hatred and his millennia old magical warriors. I find it hard getting out of bed some mornings 

[Almarenco]

I too am not a big fan of Shallan, and though I followed all her parts, I always found myself wanting to skip in The Way of Kings. I have no problem with her choices in that book, nor her quips and insecurities. They all made sense, I just found her journey in that book largely boring - so I didn't find her compelling, but I didn't dislike her. My dislike for her started as I moved into WOR, and reached peak now while reading Oathbringer. No, I have no problem with her quips, or most of the stuff some people appear to dislike her for. For me the problem is she is always between stuck or devolving. She not only has the same internal problem to overcome, she's actually getting worse, slowly, which after like 3000 pages of reading is particularly grating. I find in all of BS's books I've read, all his characters have a tendency to create stupid problems for themselves, by refusing to share key information/discuss with others they have every reason for trusting, but out of all the Characters, in Stormlight, Mistborn, and Elantris, Shallan Davar is by miles the worst offender on this count. For instance, if anyone would understand everything she does covertly, including her brother's secrets is Jasnah, and she knows this, yet still chooses to lie to her. I understand her lying to everyone else, I understand her past trauma, and I could even get on board (if with some difficulty) with her deliberately giving herself a dissociative personality disorder, but lying to Jasnah? The only person whom she knows would not only understand her, her problems (both internal and external) and not only not judge her for it, but actually be able to help her, it makes her not only infuriating to root for, but extremely non believable - at this point this just feels (to me) like forced character choices to artificially force/move the plot in the desired direction, making her less of a character at this point and more of a plot devise with the purpose of creating problems in the book - she's basically a walking chaos bomb - that's why I don't like her. I have no doubt at some point (perhaps even later in this very novel) she'll redeem herself, finally grow the storm up even a little, and help things not just by accident (as she has thus far), but with all the time and print devoted to her already, I am already beyond caring what happens to her.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Almarenco

[solarcat]

On 6/5/2022 at 8:21 PM, Treamayne said:

Similar, yet so different. I also find Shallan to be my least favorite main character(*) in Roshar.

Like TCU, I prefer Shallan's chapters from TWoK and WoR. I dislike the Shallan chapters in OB, and RoW was only slightly better. For me it basically it comes down to:

• Early in TWoK, Shallan really evokes the type of people I knew in the Military - first time away from home (especially an oppressive/abusive home) and really just a bit unpredictable and weird; mostly because they are in the process of trying to find how they interact with others when not under the (real or perceived) social pressures of home.
• The "Theft" subplot seems much more far fetched on the first read-through than it does on a second (and subsequent) readings after having seen the flashbacks in WoR.
  • If she had the strength to poison and strangle her father to protect Balat, then I can believe she would design such a long-shot plan to protect her family
• In the first two books, you can almost feel the tug inside Shallan between her instinctual reactions and the learned-supressed-reactions
• When Veil is introduced, it's just an illusion and "role"

Then we get to Oathbringer - supposedly only a week (or less) after the end of WoR. Suddenly, Veil is a competing identity, then adds Radiant for, uh, why? The DID, and Shallan in OB just never felt like a logical progression from the Shallan of WoR. I actually re-read her first few OB chapters (the first read-through for OB) because I was convinced I missed something somewhere.

Basically, I find it difficult to suspend disbelief for her situation. Dissociative identity disorder is rare, and DID where all the personalities are aware of all other personalities are even more rare; so without black-outs and missing time or a personality that is cut off from the others, all of her chapters feel to me like somebody trying to pretend they have DID rather than somebody actually struggling with this illness.

Besides, BS missed the chance at a great hook of giving us a chapter or two from one of Shallan's personalities without revealing it was Shallan right away (and having "Shallan" experience the fallout from blackout and missing time)

*Note: I say main character because I dislike Jasnah and Lirin more, but neither are main characters (yet)

 

On 6/28/2022 at 1:53 PM, Wandering Drow said:

Disclaimer: I am not a therapist. I do however have several close friends and family members who are, so what little info I have about this kind of stuff is mostly true, to the extent of my knowledge. I also am in no way trying to judge anyone based on their opinions. Shallan is a fictional character, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whether or not I agree with them. 
Personally, I really like Shallan, for a few different reasons. 
Firstly, one thing I haven’t seen people talk about here is the science behind trauma. When you experience something traumatic, especially something tied to your family or other close relationships, it doesn’t just become a ‘bad memory’. It physically changes other parts of your brain. Your brain actually buries those memories and changes how your body works and responds to stimulus, especially anything related to the trauma. Since you now have heightened and extreme reactions to things similar to that trauma, dealing with it and experiencing it isn’t just like remembering your last birthday party, you have to relive extremely painful events that your brain has trained itself to see as way more painful as it was. You actually make those memories more painful. 
Now, considering Shallan, she is interesting because every Ideal she swears means she has to confront one of her many, many traumatic memories, and then she can’t forget it again later, something your brain is designed to do. Her progression through power isn’t about vowing to protect people or realizing you can’t protect everyone, which is growth for Kaladin. Her progression is about forcing her mind to acknowledge things it has literally changed itself in an attempt to forget those memories and protect Shallan from them. Her progression is a much more painful and serious process. And, since she can’t forget it again later, she has to constantly live with those memories, which probably resurface constantly. Knowing this, is it any wonder she created alternate personas to cope with those memories? Seeing this growth and development of having to unbury deep trauma is something I can really relate to and think is really interesting to read. 
Secondly, compared to the other characters, Shallan’s struggles are ones that as far as I’m aware are almost completely unique to her as a character. Sure, Kaladin and Dalinar are great and really demonstrate other mental illnesses, but those mental illnesses are fairly common across other fantasy. Very few stories accurately portray a DID main character this well. Most DID is portrayed in the media as a method of making the villain reveal be “the main character the whole time?!?!” or something like that, but Shallan is interesting and unique in that her DID is not a plot device, but instead an obstacle that actually makes it harder to progress forward. That’s a really difficult thing to write, and part of why I like Shallan so much is that BS did this so well. 
Thirdly, Shallan’s arc isn’t as action packed as the other characters’. Sure, action is fun, but when we have so many characters full of action packed scenes it is really nice to be able to sit back and have some more interesting things unfold, which is still very, very important to the plot. 
The last thing I want to address here is what other people are saying when they say they don’t like Shallan. The main two arguments are 1. She doesn’t do very much to further the plot, and 2. Her jokes aren’t very funny. Now, these are both totally valid reasons to prefer other characters. The second one is mostly opinion, but as someone pointed out they were originally a coping mechanism for her and her siblings during a time of trauma, so even if the jokes are pretty bad I like how they are included and demonstrate how she is growing. The first point I disagree with. I think she has done so much in every book to further the overall plot of the series. Sure, it may not be as much as the other characters, and maybe it doesn’t help the immediate plot, but it is important regardless. 
 

Now, I’m not trying to say I think you are wrong if you don’t like Shallan. Your opinion is totally valid, and I completely understand why you might say that. I really hope this post doesn’t come across as accusatory or judgemental, because that’s really not my intent. All I want to do is share my reasonings for enjoying Shallan and hope that I may help you guys to see a different perspective, even if you don’t share it. 
Thanks for listening to my rant!

To preface, yes DID is usually protrayed in a bad way by the media, yet Shallan's instance of DID is quite different lest I don't even know if you could even label her as having DID. I'm no phsycologist, only a teen speculating on the internet, though I have read articles and watched videos about the disorder. DID is usally caused by trauma, which Shallan has yes, though most people with the disorder black out before changing into said alternate personality like Treamayne said.

I've seen an interview where a person could even make the conscious choice to bring out one of their alters, yet they still blacked out, and their personality and behavior changed completely. The person demostrated the transition for the interview, though for the most part, they coudn't control when a stimulus triggered them on a regular basis leading them subconsciously change into an altered state. Heck a person with the disorder could be doing the dishes, but since water is one of their triggers they could change personalities without the willingness to do so.

Additionally, a person with DID may feel quite disregulated, and they might have to find ways to communicate with their altered personallities (via writing things down and what not) in order to get things done. Shallan doesn't black out or wake up in a completely different place with a distorted memory of what happened, rather she brings out another side of herself to help cope or handle issues.

P.S. - If I got anything wrong let me know. 

P.S. x2 - I should have mentioned that people don't purposefully create their alters like Shallan did.

Edited September 25, 2022 by solarcat93

[GroundPetrel]

OCD, ADHD, depression, probably some form of ASD, and Tourette's here. 

Shallan and Kaladin constantly stumbling and needing help getting back up is how depression and anxiety issues work. 

And BTW, the majority of the main characters are from Vorin kingdoms--AKA Toxic Masculinity-Land.  Dalinar is an addict and a war criminal who was blatantly manipulated by his brother, who both believed in and used Alethi toxic masculinity to storm Dalinar up so he would stay Gavilar's weapon.  Adolin was neglected as a child which left him with rather blatant contempt for his society and a willingness to do immensely politically inadvisable things when he knows society is being BS.  Ehlokar was effectively broken by his emotionally abusive father and is locked into a cycle of desperately trying to embody Alethi toxically masculine values while knowing both that he sucks at embodying them and that they're kinda crem dung, but he can never admit that to himself because that would mean that the abusive father he didn't really like but was told to worship was wrong.  I'm at least 80% sure Jasnah was sexually assaulted by Amaram and Gavilar covered it up by having her sent to a padded cell.  Navani was in an abusive relationship and it took her years to decide "screw it, I'm going to do what I want and damn society".  And she's otherwise a normal functional adult.  Kaladin has depression and had the rust beat out of him so many times I'm genuinely surprised he didn't kill himself before the story even started, and not emotionally collapsing is a daily struggle for him.  Shallan was emotionally and physically abused as a child and tries desperately to forget it--everything wrong with Ehlokar?  She has it a thousand times worse. 

There's elements of myself I see in Shallan and Kaladin and Adolin.  Adolin's reflexive "do flamboyant thing for other person" is something that I do a lot, and I get the feeling that like me, Adolin feels internally that it's an expression of guilt for being privileged.  Kaladin's daily struggle is like my daily struggle to move my ass and help myself, only he has a good reason.  Shallan's bad jokes remind me of my own desperate attempts to be socially accepted/liked, generally through comedy or mimicry of popular things within my general social environment.  Not sure if she will grab hold of and desperately cling like a bulldog to a position contrary to the norm when she feels the norm is crem dung as much out of a desire to burn everything down so the social anxiety can be smugly right as out of a sense of conviction in her beliefs. 

Honestly, the whole "suck it up and move on" thing doesn't work for trauma and mental health issues in general.  I remember--about 3-4 years ago I was writing a Star Trek fanfic, the protagonist, Rachel, is a prime representative of my usual main character (a badass queer woman with anxiety issues and some kind of body- or identity-related self-hatred, it's almost like I'm not entirely cis and am projecting), who is abducted by bad guys who have a cyborg war criminal (Shaw) torture and r*** her for weeks as part of an evil plot.  The back third of the first of three parts is literally just her struggling to come to terms with what happened, then the second part is her struggling to help herself in therapy and on leave with her family and tele-empathic girlfriend trying to support her, then the third part is like half therapy and half Rachel fighting Shaw again and burning her face off, then verbally demolishing Shaw and leaving her to rot in a cell.  The climax of part 2 is Rachel going to fight Shaw before she's really taken care of herself. 

I could not have Rachel win there.  It just, from a narrative standpoint, from a character standpoint, was impossible.  You cannot just bury trauma, bury your instinctive fear response to someone who's caused you trauma, and go fight your abuser for the sake of somebody else, for the sake of the world or the mission or whatever other important thing.  I struggle to understand how someone as deeply traumatized as Shallan could even be expected to try to do that.  I'm genuinely surprised that Adolin, given his complete lack of training, is even able to keep Shallan halfway functional.  FFS he's more her therapist and big brother than her husband and she's still, justifiably considering the literal apocalypse, constantly backsliding. 

 

I mean, for crying out loud, it took me THREE YEARS after the last time I encountered him to transition from fearing the guy who bullied me in college, to hating him.  And that's not even physical abuse, that was just an asshole with social capital (or, at least, perceived social capital) and an ego the size of Jupiter spending about four months desperately trying to ostracize me from the sci-fi club because he decided he didn't like me, and then taking the next two years to be a hostile jerk. 

 

You gotta understand that all the protagonists basically need their own clone of Adolin Kholin to be their therapist, then all of those Adolin clones will need their own therapists to deal with that responsibility.  Except Dalinar, who needs Navani to grab him by the cojones and explain to him in a quiet, firm, level voice exactly how he's a terrible father.  (@cosmere_play actually put this best in an author's note in their fanfic--Dalinar acts like Adolin is his dangerous and disappointing mini-me, forgets that Renarin exists most of the time, and views Kaladin as the son he never had)

 

So, while I get that Shallan--and Kaladin for that matter--can be hard to read (god knows I literally checked out of Oathbringer for the better part of a year because Kaladin's inability to come to his 4th ideal realization hurt me down to my core), I think that they're really well-written characters, and more than that, exactly the kind of characters (stormed-up messes who, despite Sanderson's best attempts to give them beards and not write them as queer out of a fear of getting it wrong, come off as SUPER queer coded, and who're generally doing the right thing and want to do the right thing) that I like, even if their journeys necessarily include difficult bits.