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Szeth.

O7

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Hm yeah Szeth

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52 minutes ago, Archer said:

Sorry Lotus, Kas, couldn't resist. :P

This is.... magnificent

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[Insert trolling last-minute post here]

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Well KAS radio, that seems to be all for now! See you next time where we'll be having guest host Elandera on to get the jazz on!

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Posted (edited)

Cycle is closed! And now my watch is ended.

Edited by Kasimir
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Posted (edited)

Aftermath - 15th Doxil, 237

Spoiler

60e872db04d3c_MR51-Aftermath.thumb.png.d93fafc12f6fd2b3e68bb9d59d1cd971.png


Szeth was assassinated. He was a Worker!

The Workers have won the game!

Quote

Assassination Votes:

Szeth (4): Striker, Biplet, Mist, Araris
Mat (1): Elan

Player List:

Spoiler

1. @Matrim's Dice as Philico Tineye
2. @Tani as Sobek Worker
3. @Araris Valerian as some grouchy old guy - Loyalist
4. @Szeth_Pancakes - Worker
5. @Dannex as the kandra DaaNex Worker
6. @Lotus - Worker
7. @Steeldancer as Steel Worker
8. @The Unknown Order as Watcher, feeling the sweetness of freedom for another century Worker
9. @Fifth Scholar as Darrel, old man who's seen one too many scrapes and retirement beckons - Loyalist
10. @Ashbringer as  Derrick, a happy-go-lucky steel guider who's finally found a chance for his voice to lead to some change Worker
11. @StrikerEZ as Variel, a man with a nervous habit of wiping as much dirt off his clothes as possible - Informant
12. @Alvron as Klaas Vaak, an elderly gentleman with a bag of fine sand - Worker
13. @|TJ| as Sonny, an overenthusiastic brash and showy young worker seeking revolution by revenge - Worker
14. @Elandera - Starling
15. @Liranil - Watchman
16. @Archer as Chalkboard, a general laborer with a voice like nails on a chalkboard - Worker
17. @Mist - Loyalist
18. @Biplet as Nolle, local overly friendly worker who gets a little too talkative after a few drinks at the Bent Boxing - Loyalist

Dossiers:

Thank you for playing! It's been a nice, quiet, chill game, nothing like the huge clusterchulls I've been GMing (#MR7 #neverforget) and it's been a pleasure to have been your GM. Hope you had fun! Post-mortem/AAR to follow. Thanks also to @Devotary of Spontaneity for being a great IM. Chilling and commenting in the PM was fun :P 

P.S. I'll leave my bro @Wyrmhero to talk about the go to sleep award since he had only one job :P 

Edited by Kasimir
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I’ll have more thoughts later (I have a lot of those, as my long GM PM shows :P) but the first thing I’ll do is make sure @Elandera gets the honorable mention for both voting me correctly and fooling me 100% the cycle she was elected.

Thanks for the game, Kas!

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Gg mat you played a heck of a game

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Oh thank goodness. I was the Watchman, so I knew Mat was the Tineye, and Elandera's vote on Mat had me very worried. XD

Good game, everyone! That was super fun!

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Post-Mortem/AAR

Game Commentary:

Spoiler
  • I've mentioned this before, but I am in general pleased with the nonexistent level of drama or hitches or anything that would've required a panicked PM to the IM in this game. I did find the game a bit too quiet at times - it might be a summer thing, or it might be a sign that this game is better as a QF. Not sure, would welcome thoughts on this front.
     
  • While I did allow through the distro as it stood, I was a little concerned about how much intervention was needed. (Side-note: My Python script apparently has it out for Fifth and Araris. I'm sorry guys, if you ever play a game of mine again I'm gonna use a different RNG just to give you a fair chance :P ) As I mentioned in the Elim doc, all of the scenarios/problems that came up in committee/with my gamebreakers always boiled down to the fact the GM has to be careful in Elim team selection (or distro selection) for this game - most of them can be solved by a dynamic Elim team. Some of the distros I disallowed boiled down to an overly dynamic Tineye/Watchman pair and an Elim team that I was not confident could withstand the pressure. The problem associated with this is that if this is a known feature of the game, it becomes easier for players to try to meta-game the GM. So more safeguards are needed for future iterations.
     
  • @Matrim's Dice made a point I thought was interesting, which is that the flipped election model seemed to have psychological effects on the players. People were quite reluctant to accept players with one or two bad trusts, whereas we tend to be a bit more understanding of players involved in misgrinches in a normal SE game. Just food for thought. It's a bit curious since Bard and I had some awful trusts in MR38, which also employed this election model.
     
  • Extortion and the WL mechanic ended up being fridged more than I expected it to be. I think this is a sign that the mechanics are better removed from the game. My initial intention with WL was twofold: first, to allow either team access to a bit more voting firepower, as near end-game, the more of their members they elected, the harder a time they would have electing the last few. At the same time, I also had in mind the effects of Wyrm's Praise mechanic in LG50 - I wanted players to think carefully about their trusts and to strategise who and when they would elect, and when they wanted to trust a reliable player with the double-vote. That didn't really happen in practice.
     
  • Players commented to me they liked the flipped election model because it's chill to not be marked for death and to want to see their name in red. Make of it what you will :P
     
  • The issue with inactives is not straightforward, in my view. I think @Archer had good reason to distrust just electing inactives, and I remember proposing electing inactives back in MR38 and pretty much no one Village-side going for it either. One of the inactives I was about to propose electing ended up being an Elim, so there was that too. The final point on this issue is that I don't really like the idea of incentivising or rewarding inactivity - low activity is a fair strat as a way of playing the game, e.g. for hiding Eliminators, but it does have an impact on the dynamics of the game, and as a GM, I don't want players to feel that the game is set up such that the best way for them to play something they've signed up for is to do nothing. This is especially a concern with the Tineye role, in my view.
     
  • Broadsheets are fun; I see what Wyrm was on about now :P More seriously, I designed this template for a Scadrian MR that never materialised, though I think it's archived in the SE Art of Game Creation thread somewhere, having made the bad life decision of running MR7 instead. It's nice to finally get to use this, and to have a fairly low-effort write-up by just crowdsourcing material from players.
     
  • This has been fun, but I don't think I really want to rerun or tinker with the mechanics of such a game anytime soon - I have a number of other ideas I want to see run, and only so much time since I'm still Mostly In Retirement (is this like Mostly Dead?)
     
  • I don't really think there is a need to require the Elim Team to discuss in the thread. That option was open to them but they elected not to take it. Similarly, Village could have made more noise but chose not to. QF40 did have both teams more eager to engage in the thread but that's down to player choice, and I am fine with how it turned out.
     
  • I think that knowing the Tineye is out there and knows who they are can be very daunting for players. Both the Tineye and the Elims were at various points, convinced they were rumbled or distrusted way more than they actually were from the GM's point of view. Fog of war is a persistent problem for both teams, just as it is in regular SE, and it's important to factor that into deliberations. Nevertheless, Team Evil could probably have gotten away with a bit more boldness without the Village turning on them.
     
  • Just from a philosopher's perspective, Team Loyalist eventually fixating on Szeth for early cycle behaviour with Szeth saying pretty much nothing else in the Elected Doc since is a case of anchoring (cognitive) bias, and not much revising of priors. It's interesting to me because I think that's normally more common in Village in a regular SE game, for obvious reasons :P 
     
  • I will never grow tired of panicked player messages in my GM PM and I only regret Elan was elected so early I had to stop trolling Mat :( 
     
  • I am overall satisfied with the balance of this game. I think it was winnable for both teams - the Village victory proves it, and Fifth's gambit had flushed Mat out, and Mat did make one or two very overt moves, without too much Watchwoman cover. Elan correctly identified Mat but had not pursued/tried to convince her team of her read, or this would be a very different AAR. Ultimately, it was close, and I am therefore satisfied with how this turned out. (Especially because Village has not won in any game I've solo GMed since MR7 in 2015.)

Recommendations/Patches

Spoiler

Lots of discussion on this in the Elected Doc, but for prospective GMs who want to try their hand out at some iteration of this:

  • Allowing PMs: Immediate no on unrestricted PMs because this would just break the game. Orlok and I argued about this in 2014, but the issue boils down to the fact that allowing the Tineye an unrestricted communications channel with the Watchman doesn't end well, and harsh restrictions like banning the Tineye from revealing the Elims are very hard to enforce. That being said, I really like the idea of some PMs, if there’s a way to wrangle it. I think Devo is right that there is little incentive to report a PM, but the environment of PMs might allow trusts or manipulation, I don’t know. Maybe not PMs. Maybe do it like LG7 and have House docs. Or anonymous docs/spanreeds. The issue is that each doc is almost certainly guaranteed to have an Elim, otherwise there would be no reasonable way of dealing with these things, but it wouldn’t out false Watchman/Tineye claimants, so maybe that’s one possibility.
     
  • Disallowing inactives: @Araris Valerian had a suggestion to not allow votes on inactives. On the one hand, I think there’s some element of “It’s a Russian roulette for the Village too since they could just as easily hit an inactive player”, on the other hand, this game gets way too swingy with inactivity so I am happy with disallowing this. For this, there are two proposals:
     
  • Invalid targets: You can’t vote on an inactive, defined as someone who has not voted for one cycle. (I feel like two cycles in a row is too little, and posting isn’t helpful given this game requires information. This also makes it harder for a Tineye to go inactive and hide.) This could potentially screw teams with inactives over, but let’s be honest - inactivity is an issue for teams in standard SE anyway (RIP LG4 Seeker.) So if you didn’t vote in C2, you are not eligible for voting in C3.
     
  • Transactional voting: We could make this transactional. No votes on you are valid and they will not be counted unless you cast a vote within the same cycle. I could lower the bar to only require posting but it seems to me that we might as well go full hog and require voting if we’re planting an activity requirement. Inactivity is punishing to both teams and requiring voting gives both teams information to work off. It also fits the whole point of Avalon since you’re required to vote, though I believe that’s more mission-side, but still. I think this creates a definite lose state in the game, e.g. inactives and not enough actives to get votes, but I don’t think there’s a problem with having a lose state, as we’ve had games where the only people standing are largely inactives anyway. Both teams just need to be comfortable with the lose state, or  we could rule that hitting lose state automatically triggers the Assassination cycle, which would push to endgame immediately. (This would be a de facto inactivity filter.)
     
  • Hidden voting: Another thought I had in mind was to go back to MR1-style hidden voting. You can name your vote in the thread but only the vote sent in your GM PM will count. I won’t name players but I will give vote counts at rollover. The part I don’t like is that without the dynamic vote updates, players feel less pressure from ties and hammers. But I think there’s still some amount of accountability because with vote counts posted at rollover, it’s possible to tell who isn’t ‘holding up.’ So say five players declare in thread they will be voting for Wyrm, but the final votecount shows only three, and more voting for Ren. It’s possible to work out where the differences are, I think. The thing is, I actually think the base voting game as it stands favours the Village because there are more Villagers, and if you really blacklist everyone who voted for an Elim, it’s easy to lock Elims out of the game entirely.
     
  • Secret Hitler-style: One possibility suggested by Archer and @StrikerEZ is to include all these patches as alternate rule sets and have them be triggered upon one team or another reaching intermediate election milestones, e.g. two seats, three seats, or so on. Alternatively, have different cycles have different rules and have this be known beforehand. So the PM rules might only kick in specifically on the third cycle, and so on.

And now my watch is ended. I leave you in the bloodstained hands of Wyrm :P 

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51 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

P.S. I'll leave my bro @Wyrmhero to talk about the go to sleep award since he had only one job :P 

I'm sorry to say that I feel no-one deserves the prize this year, as Kas sent me this image recently (and was surprised when I commented on the time). Considering what this shows, I'm afraid no-one was up to the required standard, and so the First Annual Kas Go To Sleep Award goes in my sack.

60e8810505280_KasDesktop.png.cc9101453bd2dc64d9a1144bbe036af1.png

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Posted (edited)

No way I’ll be able to remember everything but I’ll say things anyway, and more things probably later :ph34r:

Fifth- I actually laughed when Kas gave me the elim list and I saw you were evil again. One day you won’t be but that potentially could be awhile, from what I’ve seen xD

Actually I was kinda jealous of the whole team in general. After reading the doc as well, it looked like a fun team.

Liranil- I guessed you were the Watchman, but literally only because I thought Fifth was the Informant. No other reason. So…

Tbh I thought I was dead for sure. I felt like I was the most obvious but I was on edge the whole game :P. I figured the elims would narrow it to me/Liranil/Lotus actually- I first thought Lotus was the Starling because of her C1 votes. Which it was nice that Elan got elected so fast, that was very nice for me :P.

Fifth (again)- That plan post you did was the biggest oh crap moment I had all game. Brilliant :D Though I’m glad we managed to not follow through with it somehow :ph34r:

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I will never grow tired of panicked player messages in my GM PM and I only regret Elan was elected so early I had to stop trolling Mat :( 

As I mentioned before, I was not :P But I think I gave you my share of panicked player messages xD I definitely thought I was more doomed than I was, but it’s a matter of perspective I guess.

Edit: Alvron won the go-to-sleep-Kas award and no one can convince me otherwise 

Edited by Matrim's Dice
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I have to say I loved doing KAS radio and will have to do similar RPs in the future cause that was great.

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12 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Edit: Alvron won the go-to-sleep-Kas award and no one can convince me otherwise 

Do you know how many times Wyrm asked me to go to sleep in our DM? :rolleyes:

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Do you know how many times Wyrm asked me to go to sleep in our DM? :rolleyes:

Ah. Well, no, but based on that statement I infer it was many :P 

Edited by Matrim's Dice
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Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

Ah. Well, no, but based on that statement I infer it was many :P 

Let's just say he has won the top hundred spots on my kill list, never believe anything else :ph34r:

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I will say I wasn't completely sure what to do with the Watchwoman role, especially since I wasn't able to be super active early on. Matrim definitely didn't get a lot of help from me. :( 

I know the inactivity for me was partially due to summer stuff, but I think the shorter cycles of a QF would suit this format pretty well.

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Phew. Good game, all. I genuinely had no idea who the Tineye was, or any role, so I wasn't sure whether I needed to be worried or not. Well done, Mat.

For those rereading stuff, a few notes on what I tried to do:

-Sussing Elandera based on vibes was intentionally vauge. (Although that was an about face because C1 I had them pegged as the Tineye). Sussing Mat was just me being misled by how much they trusted Striker and El. 

-I stand by the strategy of only electing people with perfect records for as long as we can, specifically people who did trustworthy stuff, not just those who are inactive question marks. It would have forced the elims to play less optimally. Liranil was the better election choice in my opinion than Alvron, who gave me a heart attack by trying to be elected. The catch to that plan is the elims can easily fake Tineyeness because they know who to vote for, but they had to either get all village votes when they wanted to be elected, or blemish the record of one of their own to get through, which can't be done for long. Also, after Liranil, there wasn't anyone I fully trusted, so that plan wouldn't have worked if the game went on much longer. 

-I think the 'slip' Elandera picked up on was just me assuming certain people were evil based on reads. But once I thought she might vote for me, I decided Tineye me would do their best to dissuade her by acting dumb. Which meant being very forthcoming but wrong in the doc. The 'early' post at the end had a fakeclaim in it I thought the elims might think was genuine overconfidence and vote for me for. I had it ready to go in case I did become the main wagon, because Tineye me would have had to move their votes somehow at the end; I was hoping in that scenario the elims would correctly read it as a fake claim. Luckily it didn't matter either way. 

-Lotus, Steel, great RP. Sorry I'd decided that playstyle was elimy this game. 

Other notes:

-I agree the final cycle should have either been fully in the doc with all elims present, or fully in the open. I'm a little surprised the elims didn't make a fake vote avalanche to gauge reactions to it

-Dannex's argument that they would have loved to be an elim so they wouldn't be inactive if they were kinda makes sense, but Illwei leaving proves its not guaranteed 

-I liked how there was only really one cycle that was a landslide. Those are more common in other games and are generally unfun to sit through. I wonder if a rule that if 2/3 of people vote for someone at one time, the round immediately ends, would help with those situations. 

-Generally, this was less stressful to play than other games, which was nice. It was a good game overall, nice photoshop write-ups. It was also great that vanillagers (I) could just ignore most of the rules, which helped with the learning curve. Thanks for running it, Kas, Wyrm, and Devo. 

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50 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I thought Fifth was the Informant.

I really just don’t understand why thought this. I was trying so hard to act as Tineye-y as possible. I avoided voting for any of my teammates, besides Elandera because I “didn’t know she was my teammate,” plus I kept being suspicious of people who fell in the same category of people that I wasn’t suspicious of. I was trying to get the watchwoman to trust me and to freak the Tineye out into thinking I was the Informant. I just am so amused that you thought Fifth was the Informant instead. :P

Anyway, I had a blast playing this game, even if we eventually lost. The elim team this game was awesome, and I loved getting to be the elim version of the Reform Spy, like the old days of QF40 or MR38, whichever game that was where I infamously forgot I couldn’t get exed. :P

Anyway, thanks @Kasimir for running this game. It was a blast. And also you should go to sleep. :P

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, Liranil said:

Matrim definitely didn't get a lot of help from me. :( 

This is false: You gave me enough cover by speaking out against Fifth’s gambit first. If you hadn’t, I would have been too cautious (scared) to :P So you were a big help, even if I didn’t know you were the Watchman at the time.

8 minutes ago, Archer said:

Sussing Mat was just me being misled by how much they trusted Striker and El. 

Striker was distancing from my role, Elan was Elan being good at the game :P I’m really curious who I would have sussed without the Tineye role.

4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I really just don’t understand why thought this. I was trying so hard to act as Tineye-y as possible. I avoided voting for any of my teammates, besides Elandera because I “didn’t know she was my teammate,” plus I kept being suspicious of people who fell in the same category of people that I wasn’t suspicious of. I was trying to get the watchwoman to trust me and to freak the Tineye out into thinking I was the Informant. I just am so amused that you thought Fifth was the Informant instead. :P

I actually didn’t put any thought into figuring it out until the last cycle, where I thought I saw Elan basically say Fifth was the Informant. Which apparently I misread that, but I want to find what it was now that I know I was wrong :P.

Edited by Matrim's Dice
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15 minutes ago, Liranil said:

I will say I wasn't completely sure what to do with the Watchwoman role, especially since I wasn't able to be super active early on. Matrim definitely didn't get a lot of help from me. :( 

Your team won, and you were enough of a threat to the Elims that they had to try to avoid you getting elected. Job well done, I'd say :P

I don't think there's really a 'right' way to Watchwoman. You didn't trust Striker, which was in itself already a big plus. And as Mat said, you gave him cover to work with, after all. Of course, Avalon has established Watchwoman/Percival meta, but meta's meta. In a game like this, it doesn't matter (meta?) what the established meta is, as long as you're having fun and it's working for you and your team :) 

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2 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I really just don’t understand why thought this. I was trying so hard to act as Tineye-y as possible. I avoided voting for any of my teammates, besides Elandera because I “didn’t know she was my teammate,” plus I kept being suspicious of people who fell in the same category of people that I wasn’t suspicious of. I was trying to get the watchwoman to trust me and to freak the Tineye out into thinking I was the Informant. I just am so amused that you thought Fifth was the Informant instead. :P

Tbh you had me fooled for a bit. I would've been more convinced if you hadn't voted on Mat. Either you were voting an elim to cover your tracks, or you weren't the Tineye. Still, I didn't know for sure until you got voted off, so good job!

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

This is false: You gave me enough cover by speaking out against Fifth’s gambit first. If you hadn’t, I would have been to cautious (scared) to :P So you were a big help, even if I didn’t know you were the Watchman at the time.

XD I figured I needed to make sure it didn't look like I was sheeping you, and once you dropped the hint that Fifth was an elim, everything made a lot of sense.

2 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Your team won, and you were enough of a threat to the Elims that they had to try to avoid you getting elected. Job well done, I'd say :P

I don't think there's really a 'right' way to Watchwoman. You didn't trust Striker, which was in itself already a big plus. And as Mat said, you gave him cover to work with, after all. Of course, Avalon has established Watchwoman/Percival meta, but meta's meta. In a game like this, it doesn't matter (meta?) what the established meta is, as long as you're having fun and it's working for you and your team :) 

I definitely had fun, so big checkmark there! :D

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Good game everyone! Thanks to @Kasimir and @Wyrmhero for running things. This game did feel a bit more chill than the recent LGs, which I appreciated. I think the game and teams were quite well balanced. If things had played out slightly differently, we could have had a 3-3 election cycle, which would have been fun.

I think collectively we as elims could have put a bit more thought into finding @Matrim's Dice, but I'm not sure we could have done it reliably. I think we'd mostly boiled it down to Szeth/Steel/Mat, but like Kas pointed out, I at least was biased toward earlier events (also I got a little burned out rereading the thread, and skipped the last 8-10 pages).

Overall, I really enjoyed playing with my team. Everyone was active enough and willing to go for some fun plays. Kinda would like to be village with Fifth again at some point, but it seems like I'll be trying for a record elim streak again. This makes 3, maybe Kas can stick to his old RNG if I decide to play his QF.

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I discovered that I cannot focus on two games at once while on mobile-only, especially when the game is so different from what we're used to... wish I could have at least played Derrick some more to at least irritate people. I usually love to play the survivor.

That being said, I love the concept and what I saw in the thread going on and it was very fun to try and wrap my head around things. I was very caught up in everyone assuming Mat and Fifth were Elim teammates. Having PMs would be... interesting... but there would need to be something along the lines of the Tineye.

 

Perhaps this:

Make something along the lines of a PM-creation role, or allow everyone to make a PM each cycle except for the Tineye, and maybe Starling and Watchwoman as well.

If an Elim creates a PM with the Tineye, a PM is opened as normal. If a Villager creates a PM with the Tineye, they are told that that player is the Tineye but they do not get a PM with that player. Perhaps have the Informant work the same way. That would prevent the Tineye from being able to out the entire Elim team and ensure that they don't claim to the Starling. Worst that could happen is there just ends up a lot of extra Watchers or (if the Starling can PM) the Tineye learns the Starling early, which is a lot better than the Tineye deciding to claim wildly and ending the game (either Village victory through overwhelming force or Elim victory via sneaky Starling).

There's probably a lot of holes in that plan and it puts another big pressure on the Tineye. But it would let most players PM normally.

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