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Harmony vs Odium


MistMage

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As per RoW it's becoming more clear that this is where the conflict is heading and I would like to take a moment to hype up my boy Sazed.

This whole he's stuck with 2 opposing powers that leaves him unable to act is so frustrating. However, I think having this Shard conflict will be exactly what he needs to get a grip on his powers.

Trell, whether it's Odium or Autonomy, will allow Sazed to learn and hopefully prep when whatever comes out of Roshar inevitably comes for him. I think by having an enemy, it allows Sazed to protect using Preservation's power and attack using Ruins. This will help alleviate the concern that he's using one more than the other, that's probably what's crippling him now, but by giving him an enemy he will hopefully learn what he actually should use his powers for.

After they hopefully defeat Trell we'll be ready for Roshar and we'll see who's the true crafty Vessel.

I for one am excited to see Ruin unleashed upon anyone who dares attack the world where Tindwyl called home

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I doubt that's the case. In the RoW (may have been OB I forget) letters, Sazed mentions that he needs a 'sword' to attack with. Bleeder (shadows of self spoilers) was a bigger threat than miles and I would have thought he would have used Ruin to attack her if he could. 

And while I love sazed, awesome character, I doubt that one shard battle will be enough to offset the millennia of experience any vessel of odium has over him in splintering

Though I would love to see harmony Vs odium at some point 

 

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A side note; I do believe Trell might be of Odium. If we agree that Mistborn Second Era is after the first Stormlight archive pentalogy, and considering how Odium talked about having people serve his interests across the Cosmere, it would be plausible to assume Trell is an avatar of Odium. Somewhat more terrifying, would be that Dalinar loses the conflict (Which I believe is the definitive next step for SA) would mean that Trell could be Dalinar, serving his new master. I could be wrong though, so please do feel free to contradict me and point the flaws in this :rolleyes:

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It's confirmed trell is autonomy by process of elimination......

Though I would love it if your theory was correct, it physically can't be. Also I don't care if TOdium is not Rayse, he's still bound by the shards agreements. Odium made a promise to stay in the rosharan system didn't he? 

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I do think Harmony is much more dangerous than he appears, at the current stage.  A lot of the Metallic Arts works on a Newton's Third Law 'action-reaction' level, and the real issue Harmony has is that whenever he wants to use Preservation without Ruin, Ruin counters it, and vice versa.  But if he can manage to use both at once (therefore maintaining the balance), say by defending against an attack, he can unleash his full power.

Having said that, I believe that Sazed, as Harmony's Vessel, will find it harder and harder to act independently, as is the nature of all Shardic Intent over time.

I'm very curious as to the polarization of the Cosmere into warring camps.  There definitely appears to be at least three sides to the conflict: Odium and those who follow him, wanting to destroy (or perhaps at this point absorb) other Shards, Harmony and those who follow him defending against Odium's side, and the third neutral side, who I feel are being led by Endowment (among the Shards) and Frost (among non-Shards).  I find Endowment's Stance baffling in the extreme.

Anyway, regarding the 'sides' of the Shards:

Odium's Side:

Odium (naturally)

Autonomy (pretty safe bet)

Mercy

Harmony's Side:

Harmony

Valor (possibly)

Whimsy

Neutral:

Endowment

Invention (I believe Invention is in Silverlight)

Wild Card(s):

Cultivation (seriously wtf)

 

 

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15 hours ago, MistMage said:

I for one am excited to see Ruin unleashed upon anyone who dares attack the world where Tindwyl called home

That seems to be the problem Saze has - he can't use the powers separately - they have to be harmonized for him to do anything. With revelations in RoW, the ending of Hero of  Ages reads a bit differently. 

Quote

They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

It's a lot like when Navani and Raboniel were trying to create Warlight for the first time. If one of them pulled too much, the Rhythm couldn't find harmony. And Sazed exists in a state where if he pushes too much with only one power - he'll tear himself apart.

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4 hours ago, Phlipz1 said:

It's confirmed trell is autonomy by process of elimination......

Though I would love it if your theory was correct, it physically can't be. Also I don't care if TOdium is not Rayse, he's still bound by the shards agreements. Odium made a promise to stay in the rosharan system didn't he? 

This depends entirely on what happens after SA Book 5. Mistborn Era 2 happens in between Stormlight Eras 1 and 2. It's entirely possible that something unforeseen happens in the Contest and frees Odium, making him being behind Trell suddenly plausible, if not a long shot.

I'm personally in the very small camp that the Set are Selish in origin, perhaps related to the Ire, and Trell may somehow be Selish as well just by virtue of the facts that:

Some Selish are very advanced realmatically, (Ire)

They've acted against Scadrial before when they tried to steal Preservation (Also Ire)

and that Brandon has said that Sel is the third major actor in the Cosmere, next to Scadrial and Roshar, and yet we've seen almost nothing of them so far.

I can easily see Trell being some sort of Selish magi-tech that organized a ton of Shardic power to create some kind of almost-Shard (red being co-opted Investiture would be the consequences of whatever they did). WoBs talk a lot about how Aons are like magical programming, and we see a heavy mathematic theme in the Set (Their name, and their leaders go by names like "Array" and "Sequence"). 

I do like the idea of Saze jumping into the whole "Ruin to Preserve" thing, but I think there's something within his own psychology, if not just Shardic Intent, that prevents him from doing so, hence the reliance on Wax to be the "sword".

Edited by The Technovore
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I do agree with many of you that Sazed needs Wax as his sword as he mentions in the letters, however, I always thought of that as in Harmony needs an agent that he doesn't need to direct as much as he does the Kandra. Someone who can carry his will across places he can't go. When it comes to Shard vs Shard fight, like we're talking Splintering level, I'd like to think Sazed taps into his warrior side and learns to use Ruin to attack and Preservation to defend. It might even come as a revelation to him mid-fight that this is what he needs to maintain Harmony, and therefore finally snap in tune with his Shard's intent. I think the source of his struggle is he tries to repress the Ruin side and that binds him by automatically repressing his Preservation instincts, thereby crippling him from doing anything. When put in a difficult situation I think he'll manage to use both properly. When he was human he was able to fight when necessary, and even kill to protect, I just think he needs a threat dire enough to activate that instinct in this mode, and the Shard's Intent shouldn't interfere, because by acting he'll be preserving Harmony.

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It is going to be interesting which shards will be on which side of this conflict being hinted at.

So far it seems like this:

Harmony coalition:

Harmony

Valor (implied to be reasonable to recruit if the right thing is said)

Odium coalition:

Odium

Autonomy

Mercy (whatever was said in their reply worried Sazed and they were there for the fight between Odium and Ambition. Still a question which they were helping though)

Abstaining/whatever:

Endowment (rejected Hoid in her response but Harmony’s ROW letter does make you wonder if she might’ve indicated otherwise)

Invention (up in the air since Harmony can’t locate them again. Makes you wonder if this might be the ‘survival’ shard since they hid themselves from a reply)

Whimsy (whatever they said in response to Harmony makes you wonder if they are trying to keep the peace or sent a cloud cuckoo lander response that doesn’t answer the question at all)

Cultivation (she could also go in the Harmony section but she could be a third party as well)

Non-factors:

Ambition

Devotion

Dominion

Honor

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Quote

 

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

Taravangian > Rayse 
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Sazed in the Mistborn era 3 final book conclusion:

"You know, I should probably thank you. Without you forcing my hand, I would never have learned to see my powers in this manner. Without you, I would still have been walking a tightrope, trying to balance the two powers. I saw myself as the keeper of the delicate balance between two separate & opposing forces rather than the mixture of the two forces that I hold. I am both. I am my world's Preservation and your Ruin, foolish god!"

*punts Odium*

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the question then becomes- as much as i love your answer- is the intent of preservation blanket or subjective. we see that he (leras at the time) wanted the final empire to continue so that he could defeat ruin (essentially his opposite intent). TLR, who had been seen as a tyrant almost for years on years, was seen as a force of good and stability by leras (all info from secret history).

so, as odium is unchanging and eternal as well, and wants to preserve his own intent, and due to the fact when kelsier held the power the power rebelled because he was trying to use them to harm ruin (though admittedly vin does the same and there are no consequences until ruin starts fighting back so the vailidity is debatable), would the powers allow him to harm odium?

its unknown how long it takes for a shards intent to consume a person like ati, leras and rayse did, but we know 300 years isnt enough for them to become so focused. if the 'final battle' between harmony and odium ever takes place it wont be for a while, and so i wonder if having dual opposing shards and being consumed by boths intent (hypothetically) wont render sazed even more unable to act than he is now?

that said, again i would love to see your statement come true @Honorless

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On 6/17/2021 at 2:46 PM, Phlipz1 said:

I doubt that's the case. In the RoW (may have been OB I forget) letters, Sazed mentions that he needs a 'sword' to attack with. Bleeder (shadows of self spoilers) was a bigger threat than miles and I would have thought he would have used Ruin to attack her if he could. 

And while I love sazed, awesome character, I doubt that one shard battle will be enough to offset the millennia of experience any vessel of odium has over him in splintering

Though I would love to see harmony Vs odium at some point 

 

I think the point was about the magnitude of the threat. At the end of the day, a single kandra or twinborn is no match for a single Shard, let alone a combination of two. But Sazed can't do much against them because they are so insignificant compared to him.

But if an outside threat invades, backed up by a Shard or two, then that is an even enough battle for the Shards to work together. He needs a 'sword' to work against mortal beings but when something in his weight class comes in he can cut loose. Although in terms of scale it would be more like two Pied Pipers setting their rats on each other while they duke it out themselves.

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I love the analogy of shards as pied Pipers *laughing crying emoji*

I see your point but raise you another: odium joined the conflict with the fused in the battle of thalen field. He was directly stated to be there (obviously not all his power that would be stupid) and be using the everstorm and raising thunderclasts to his advantage. 

While I don't think sazed would participate in a mortal battle, odium certainly doesn't mind doing so

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Quote

Cosmere.es

We are more or less sure that, once you finish the last book from Wax and Wayne, this is going to have kind of an impact, maybe, on everything?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. Wax and Wayne as a series, entirely, is more focused on the characters than the cosmere. Which is different from Era Three. Era Three, while it's very focused on characters, is more cosmere-focused. Remember, Wax and Wayne is the series I interjected. And I realized, as I was writing it, there were a lot of things I needed to do in it (that's good I started it), but they are mostly setup. You will get done with Wax and Wayne Four, you will know who Trell is. You will know what trellium is. You will know what's been happening there. But what it's not gonna do is give you definitive, cosmere-wide, large-scale changes. It is more going to be setting up and building for the big things that are coming next. So don't put too much pressure on the poor little Wax and Wayne series; they really are about Wax, Wayne, Steris, and Marasi, and kind of uncovering this stuff. You could consider it the buildup and prologue to the second large era of the Cosmere, if that makes sense. (Which, the second era of the Cosmere is basically going to be: third era Mistborn, second era Stormlight.)

Cosmere.es Interview (April 22, 2021)

This WoB really makes me wonder about the possibility of Trell being Odium, especially with Taravangian's thoughts in Broken Gods 

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