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Why are the Bondsmiths OP and not the Windrunner's?


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Hey y'all I'm just curious about something. During Oathbringer and Rhythm of War it is suggested heavily if not outright stated that the powers of the Bondsmiths are over powered to the point where Dalinar, by virtue of being bondsmith (correct me if I'm wrong) can speak on behalf of Honor. In Oathbringer we also learn that the surge of adhesion works for Bondsmiths in a more spiritual way than it does for the Windrunners, which allows them to forge spiritual connections in ways that the books have not made extremely clear yet.

What I'm wondering is why this OP powerset is given to the Bondsmiths and not the Windrunners, who are bonded to honorspren (the spren closest in intent to Honor himself), and who use the surges of both adhesion and gravitation, which are both binding in nature. In contrast, the Bondsmiths can be bound to either the Stormfather (Honor's spren), the Nightwatcher (Cultivation's Spren), and the Sibling (Honor and Cultivation's child) and use the surges of adhesion and tension (which alters the stiffness of an object). In the case of the Stormfather it makes sense, but why would the Nightwatcher's Bondmsith be able to use Adhesion to such overpowered extremes? It seems to me that if any order of KR should be overpowered, it should be the Windrunners who seem the most related to Honor. 

Do we know of any in world explanations for this? The meta explanation is possibly that Brandon didn't want to give the largest order of KR the overpowered ability to bind planets as they saw fit, but are there in world explanations for this?

Thank you.

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Most likely it's because their sprens are bigger. If you gave investiture to a gloryspren until it became sapient you'd most likely get a Radiant with physical Adhesion and physical Tension and not both the spiritual and physical version as Boundsmiths do.

The "speak for honour" part is unique to the Stormfather and comes from the fact that he's a Sliver of Honour (and even bigger than the Sibling or the Unmades)

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1 hour ago, ShardplateJoe III said:

What I'm wondering is why this OP powerset is given to the Bondsmiths and not the Windrunners, who are bonded to honorspren (the spren closest in intent to Honor himself), and who use the surges of both adhesion and gravitation, which are both binding in nature. In contrast, the Bondsmiths can be bound to either the Stormfather (Honor's spren), the Nightwatcher (Cultivation's Spren), and the Sibling (Honor and Cultivation's child) and use the surges of adhesion and tension (which alters the stiffness of an object). In the case of the Stormfather it makes sense, but why would the Nightwatcher's Bondmsith be able to use Adhesion to such overpowered extremes? It seems to me that if any order of KR should be overpowered, it should be the Windrunners who seem the most related to Honor. 

The Stormfather is the largest remnant left of Honor so it makes sense he gives an OP power set 

The Sibling doesn’t seem that OP just has a lot of access to Investiture 

And who knows what the Nightwatcher can do

Windrunners only have very little access to Investiture and can only do little thing

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The Bondsmiths have a Bond to spren that can be referred to as "godspren". They have a lot more Investiture compared to other sapient spren. The Stormfather is responsible for distributing water, crem & Stormlight over Roshar and the Nightwatcher can alter men's Spiritweb and the Sibling maintains who-knows-how-many fabrials all over Urithiru.

We've been told that how a Bondsmith's Surges manifested also depended on which godspren they Bonded, so the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith would have powers slightly different than the Stormfather's.

The Surges sometimes act differently for different Orders. Active use of the Surge of Adhesion, for Windrunners is more Physical, while for Bondsmiths it's more Spiritual, direct manipulation of Connection.

Edited by Honorless
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4 hours ago, ShardplateJoe III said:

Hey y'all I'm just curious about something. During Oathbringer and Rhythm of War it is suggested heavily if not outright stated that the powers of the Bondsmiths are over powered to the point where Dalinar, by virtue of being bondsmith (correct me if I'm wrong) can speak on behalf of Honor. In Oathbringer we also learn that the surge of adhesion works for Bondsmiths in a more spiritual way than it does for the Windrunners, which allows them to forge spiritual connections in ways that the books have not made extremely clear yet.

What I'm wondering is why this OP powerset is given to the Bondsmiths and not the Windrunners, who are bonded to honorspren (the spren closest in intent to Honor himself), and who use the surges of both adhesion and gravitation, which are both binding in nature. In contrast, the Bondsmiths can be bound to either the Stormfather (Honor's spren), the Nightwatcher (Cultivation's Spren), and the Sibling (Honor and Cultivation's child) and use the surges of adhesion and tension (which alters the stiffness of an object). In the case of the Stormfather it makes sense, but why would the Nightwatcher's Bondmsith be able to use Adhesion to such overpowered extremes? It seems to me that if any order of KR should be overpowered, it should be the Windrunners who seem the most related to Honor. 

Do we know of any in world explanations for this? The meta explanation is possibly that Brandon didn't want to give the largest order of KR the overpowered ability to bind planets as they saw fit, but are there in world explanations for this?

Thank you.

Why would them Being Hoorspren make them have the most power?

The Stormfather is fused with Tanavast's cognitive shadow, and so in a sense, is Honor's vessel, or what's left of him.

THe Nightwatcher and the Sibling are vastly more powerful than Honorspren, and give access to Honor's magic sstem,(though likely have at least a little bit of Cultivation's system as well.)

In a way, it's like saying that Lerasium should be more powerful than the Well of Acsension becasue it's Preservation's metal.

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Bondsmithing was also used to bind the surges in the first place so the power predates and is the core of surgebinding. The infinity loop diagrams are balanced artistic renditions of the surges but the reality is that Roshar's major indluencers are Adolnosium, The Shards, The Dawnshards, and the Bondsmiths, basically in that order.

Likely Bondsmithing was tied to powerful spren not because they were more powerful but rather because the power needs more discretion and larger spren can be more choosy about who they bond.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/15/2021 at 10:07 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

The Stormfather is the largest remnant left of Honor so it makes sense he gives an OP power set 

I think it's less to do with the Stormfather being a Splinter of Honor specifically, as all Radiant spren are an infinitesimal Splinter of Honor, and more to do with the fact that Dalinar is bonded to a unique Splinter.

On 6/15/2021 at 10:07 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

The Sibling doesn’t seem that OP just has a lot of access to Investiture 

The Sibling is likely of similar power to The Nightwatcher or The Stormfather, just very clearly has a finite domain of power.  She can suppress all Surgebinding of the Fused, and those less than the Fourth Ideal.  That's... whooof.

On 6/15/2021 at 10:07 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

And who knows what the Nightwatcher can do

I mean, apparently pretty much whatever they want, where humans are concerned.  Cultivation has only intervened directly to do some pretty crazy things.

On 6/15/2021 at 10:07 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Windrunners only have very little access to Investiture and can only do little thing

Windrunners have all the access to Investiture they can get their hands on... Bondsmiths are just Connected to a completely different kind of spren; notably, unique ones (although, yes, opening a perpendicularity to the Spiritual Realm does kinda allow them to drink Investiture from a fire hose).  However, it's like comparing a Ford Focus to a Ferrari Enzo.  Yeah, they're both cars, so they have plenty in common... They've got four wheels, and a power train, and suspension, they run on fuel, they have a steering wheel... but they're in totally different categories otherwise... There's also potentially only three Bondsmiths in existence at a time...

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1 hour ago, CygnusRising said:

I think it's less to do with the Stormfather being a Splinter of Honor specifically, as all Radiant spren are an infinitesimal Splinter of Honor, and more to do with the fact that Dalinar is bonded to a unique Splinter.

The Sibling is likely of similar power to The Nightwatcher or The Stormfather, just very clearly has a finite domain of power.  She can suppress all Surgebinding of the Fused, and those less than the Fourth Ideal.  That's... whooof.

I mean, apparently pretty much whatever they want, where humans are concerned.  Cultivation has only intervened directly to do some pretty crazy things.

Windrunners have all the access to Investiture they can get their hands on... Bondsmiths are just Connected to a completely different kind of spren; notably, unique ones (although, yes, opening a perpendicularity to the Spiritual Realm does kinda allow them to drink Investiture from a fire hose).  However, it's like comparing a Ford Focus to a Ferrari Enzo.  Yeah, they're both cars, so they have plenty in common... They've got four wheels, and a power train, and suspension, they run on fuel, they have a steering wheel... but they're in totally different categories otherwise... There's also potentially only three Bondsmiths in existence at a time...

Uniqueness isn't what makes them special, it's the connection to the Shards, the shear amount of power they can use. Being Unique is a side effect of that.

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Jurble

Are Bondsmith spren created as a matter of intent by Shards or are they 'natural' insofar as any spren made of enough Investiture would create a Bondsmith bond? That is, for example, the Everstorm is clearly a giant mass of Odium's Investiture, if someone were to bond its spren (which is presumably very young and insensate currently), would it form a Bondsmith bond as a matter of (super)natural laws or would Odium have to tweak something on a metaphysical level to allow a Bondsmith bond to form?

Brandon Sanderson

It wouldn't naturally become a Bondsmith spren, as it's not JUST the amount of Investiture that makes one. (For example, there's that odd spren in Iri that has a ton of Investiture, but didn't become a Radiant spren.) To become a Radiant spren requires some different things.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 28, 2020)
Quote

Aurimus

Firstly, is there a general name for all the Bondsmith spren? Along the lines of the word "honorspren" for all the Windrunner spren.

Brandon Sanderson

In world, they're just called Bondsmith Spren. But godspren isn't terrible for discussions, as it does relate a little to things like the god metals.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 16, 2020)

 

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Tension + adheision

Tension from what we understand makes things stronger. So not only do they make bonds they can strengthen them. I think in this regard Tension is an amplifier for what they do with Adheison on a spiritual level.

Also, Windrunners can lend powers to those they fight with and protect. Giving the ability to use basic WR powers, lend plate etc. I think this is the spiritual component of their powers.

Also, when looking at the virtues of each, Windrunners are leaders while Bondsmiths are a kind of religious mentor, guiding with piety. Their realm concerns Gods, how to live well, honorably etc.

Also, Dalinar is a special case among all Bondsmiths. Before his death, Tanavast changed the Stormfather, imbuing and merging him with Tanavasts own CS.

Dalinar is the first to properly bond the Stormfather after that point. This makes Dalinar unique among all other Bondsmiths, likely contributing to his OP-ness.

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1 hour ago, LordFlea said:

Also, Windrunners can lend powers to those they fight with and protect. Giving the ability to use basic WR powers, lend plate etc. I think this is the spiritual component of their powers.

Every order has squires, and aparently it was common practice for Radiants to lend plate

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2 hours ago, LordFlea said:

It was common practice for *some* orders to do so

It never mentions some orders just that it did hapen

Spoiler

Kevin Andres

In the vision Dalinar had in Way of Kings where he was flying with another Radiant, he asks how to summon his armor, and the Radiant he's with acts confused and tells him to talk to the quartermaster, or something along those lines. Did Radiants lend out their armor to lower rank Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson

This did happen in the past.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

 

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On 29/06/2021 at 10:27 PM, CygnusRising said:

The Sibling is likely of similar power to The Nightwatcher or The Stormfather, just very clearly has a finite domain of power.  She can suppress all Surgebinding of the Fused, and those less than the Fourth Ideal.  That's... whooof.

The Stormfather is much bigger than the other two and the Sibling is a they

On 01/07/2021 at 4:42 AM, Frustration said:

Every order has squires, and aparently it was common practice for Radiants to lend plate

Nope

Quote

Argent

There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Argent

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Argent

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference.

Argent

 But some have more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

I suspect Elsecaller are among the ones who don't get squires

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3 hours ago, mathiau said:

The Stormfather is much bigger than the other two and the Sibling is a they

Nope

I suspect Elsecaller are among the ones who don't get squires

Huh, that's interesting, you would think that if Bondsmiths got them they all would.

I don't think Jasnah is close enough to anyone to get squires to start with.

Though, Willshapers focus on individuality, might mean they don't.

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3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Huh, that's interesting, you would think that if Bondsmiths got them they all would.

You could think that but Bondsmith are masters of connection, them being able to "artificially" create a Squire bound doesn't seem weird to me

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I don't think Jasnah is close enough to anyone to get squires to start with.

Technically she was (probably) close enough to Shallan and is close enough to Wit, but yeah, there's no non-radiant close enough to her.

I still think Elsecaller are a decent guess for an order without squires. If only because there's only four order left, the WoB implies there's at lest two orders without squires and one of these order is the Edgedancers.

Quote

Though, Willshapers focus on individuality, might mean they don't.

I don't know, Reachers managed to use Venli's connection too get in the PR which I think is similar to what human's are doing when they become squires

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1 minute ago, mathiau said:

I don't know, Reachers managed to use Venli's connection too get in the PR which I think is similar to what human's are doing when they become squires

Spren can come over without a bond, even inteligent spren.

And they give transformation on top of that so there are a lot of ways that could work.

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13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Spren can come over without a bond, even inteligent spren.

Yes but these came with a bond, Venli's one

Quote

And they give transformation on top of that so there are a lot of ways that could work.

I assume you meant transportation

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Do we know necessarily that bondsmiths have access to more investiture or become more invested?

 

Is their strength not also just explained by their particular power being over spiritual aspects of Connection/adhesion vs a windrunners that gives them the ability to manipulate physical realm adhesion? 

It sounds like most of the theorizing here relies on the assumption that if kaladin's bond gave him the ability to manipulate spiritual connection which it doesn't, Kaladin would still never be able to do what Dalinar can...and do we know that? It's like a misting burner pewter has a lot easier time killing someone than a misting burning bronze, but in the investiture sense, the misting burning pewter is equally as powerful.

I think it's reasonable to suspect that having a massively invested spren on the other end of the bond enhances many things, but if the nahel bond/the spren is the "key" that determines what you're able to do while invested/with investiture then a lot of the differences it seems can be explained with different keys, not more powerful ones. Why are bondsmiths OP? Because those are the powers that defines being a bondsmith 

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A Windrunner's Surges combined with mega-squiring may make them the most combat-worthy of all the Orders of Radiants, but the Bondsmith powers are "OP" exactly because of what the Stormfather describes them as: the power to bind gods. To literally change the rules of the game.

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But do not look toward the powers of others, even those who share your Surges. Their lot is not yours, and their powers are small, petty things. What you did in reknitting those statues was a mere trifle, a party trick.

Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle.

And to give further evidence of that assessment, what we see "Tezim" casually do as a Bondsmith Unchained (possessing the Bondsmith Honorblade, along with millennia of experience using it and no Shard of Honor around to curb its use) is terrifying.

And consider what Melishi did, who was evidently bonded with the Sibling of Urithiru and not the Stormfather-as-proxy-Honor: ended the False Desolation in one stroke by stealing the minds of an entire people, yea even unto their children and the generations that followed them (save for the portion that splintered off earlier as The Final Legion, having renounced their Connection to Odium).

Yes, it involved capturing and imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram in a perfect gem; but that just means B-A-M is the Unmade analogous to a Bondsmith, or at least somehow became such at that time (not having exhibited that ability before). (My theory is that that "Bondsmith-like upgrade" to B-A-M coincided with however Odium managed to kill Honor despite the whole Oathpact thing going on.)

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