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so we know Rysn has a dawnshard of change, so what about the others? did Kelsier get a survival dawnshard? when he went into the well of ascension? is that how he survived? what if cognitive shadows are dawn shards?

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Kelsier's survival had nothing to do with a Dawnshard it's just that things that are very invested can say longer/forever. Basically Kelsier became the Preservation version of an Herald

1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

what if cognitive shadows are dawn shards?

Then there'd be far more than four Dawnshards

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There should be at least one more Dawnshard on Roshar as when Honor mentioned them in the Visions, he pluralized them. Same with snippets of old in-world texts that we get in epigraphs. One mentioned that there's a Dawnshard that could "Bind all creatures, mortal or Voidish", which doesn't sound much like the Change Dawnshard. This is theorised to be the Unity Dawnshard. The Command is not canon, just speculation. People also theorize that this Unity Dawnshard might have some Connection with Dalinar.

As for the possibility of a Dawnshard on Scadrial, Preservation does mention a weapon that he buried in Secret History. "Survive" being the Dawnshard Command is also fanon, not canon.

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The Sleepless straight up told Rysn that the Dawnshard could be used to do ludicrous things with Surgebinding.  Assuming that they mean Invested Arts in general (or just that it applies), the idea of Kelsier holding one is... disconcerting, to say the least.

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Unity would make sense thematically in Roshar - bondsmiths as extensions of unity might be why they predate radiants and the heralds. If Ishar holds/held the unity shard it might also explain why he could bind gods, surges etc. It might also explain why honor was interested in roshar in the first place and how mishram could connect so powerfully to all the singers.

Change is also thematic to cultivation, progression in the oaths, old magic. All of the surges impose change on the world and soulcasting in particular seems to embody the power. I imagine the surges would be magnified by this dawnshard.

Odium also embodies a sort of division and opposition. Its possible there's 3 dawnshards on roshar and that odium actually used some sort of division dawnshard to splinter the previous shards after destroying their vessels. If Odium still has this hypothetical dawnshard maybe dividing the stormfather is what the day of sorrow actually is.

Edited by Waffles
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I personally think the four Dawnshards are based off of the CRUD concept from software. CRUD stands for the four operations you can do with data: Create, Read, Update and Delete. Obviously the Change Dawnshard corresponds to the Update command. It would explain why the three shards could make such a magically powerful world. Since Cultivation would be under Update/Change, Odium was under Delete and Honor would be under Create, that's most of the possible commands.

Also, it explains why some shards have the powers they do. Ruin could change people's personalities/minds but not see them directly while Preservation can do the opposite because Ruin is under Update/Change and Preservation is under Read. Preservation has better future sight because it fundamentally involves reading the possibilities; Honor doesn't have as much future sight because the command Create does not require the ability to read; and etc.  

P.s. you may ask why Preservation is under Read. It's because Preservation is hugely about stuff staying the same and Read is the only command where no data changes. Also, that shard can read thoughts. 

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10 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

I personally think the four Dawnshards are based off of the CRUD concept from software. CRUD stands for the four operations you can do with data: Create, Read, Update and Delete. Obviously the Change Dawnshard corresponds to the Update command. It would explain why the three shards could make such a magically powerful world. Since Cultivation would be under Update/Change, Odium was under Delete and Honor would be under Create, that's most of the possible commands.

Also, it explains why some shards have the powers they do. Ruin could change people's personalities/minds but not see them directly while Preservation can do the opposite because Ruin is under Update/Change and Preservation is under Read. Preservation has better future sight because it fundamentally involves reading the possibilities; Honor doesn't have as much future sight because the command Create does not require the ability to read; and etc.  

P.s. you may ask why Preservation is under Read. It's because Preservation is hugely about stuff staying the same and Read is the only command where no data changes. Also, that shard can read thoughts. 

 I can see this being the case

One little problem I have with it is that if there are only 4 Dawnshard I would think they are all very different, and update and delete seem very similar; because all delete is is detrimental change (Law of thermodynamics and all)

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On 6/15/2021 at 1:57 PM, Honorless said:

As for the possibility of a Dawnshard on Scadrial, Preservation does mention a weapon that he buried in Secret History.

Wasn't this just referring to the mist-Snapping and atium Mistings? At least, that's how I've always read it.

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2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Wasn't this just referring to the mist-Snapping and atium Mistings? At least, that's how I've always read it.

Possibly. Here's the quote:

Quote

 

"I needed a sign. Something he couldn't change. A sign of the weapon I'd buried. The boiling point of water, I think. Maybe it's freezing point? But what if the units change over the years? I needed something that would be remembered always. Something they'll immediately recognize. Sixteen."

 

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8 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

I personally think the four Dawnshards are based off of the CRUD concept from software. CRUD stands for the four operations you can do with data: Create, Read, Update and Delete. Obviously the Change Dawnshard corresponds to the Update command. It would explain why the three shards could make such a magically powerful world. Since Cultivation would be under Update/Change, Odium was under Delete and Honor would be under Create, that's most of the possible commands.

The main issue with that is that in the Cosmere energy is conserved which make such things as a "destroy" or "delete" dawnshard unlikely

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@Bejardin1250 Update and Delete are pretty different. Update is changing data that is at a particular location while Delete is fairly obvious. It's the difference between changing your name, relationship status or profile pic in Facebook and making the whole page inaccessible. In Cosmere terms, it's the difference between Ruin and Cultivation in my head. Cultivation changed Dalinar to a different and better man while Ruin was going to make Scadrial unlivable. 

@mathiau Yeah, you're right about matter, energy and investiture not being destroyed in the grand scheme of things. However, look at how Odium splintered several shards. Is the investiture still there? Yes. Is the shard itself useable anymore? No it isn't. 

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2 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

@mathiau Yeah, you're right about matter, energy and investiture not being destroyed in the grand scheme of things. However, look at how Odium splintered several shards. Is the investiture still there? Yes. Is the shard itself useable anymore? No it isn't. 

It is still useable, that's how the Selish magic system works

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Not the investiture, the shards. The shards Dominion and Devotion cannot be held anymore so I am calling them "destroyed" in that respect. The investiture is not destroyed because it makes up the Dor.

Let ask you a question. If I blew up a building, could some one say I destroyed it? Even though the atoms used to make up that building still exist? Yes, of course some one could say I destroyed it because it can't be used as a building anymore. Similarly, the shards were destroyed by Odium because they can't be used as shards even though the rubble of the shards make up the Dor.  

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2 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

Not the investiture, the shards. The shards Dominion and Devotion cannot be held anymore so I am calling them "destroyed" in that respect. The investiture is not destroyed because it makes up the Dor.

Let ask you a question. If I blew up a building, could some one say I destroyed it? Even though the atoms used to make up that building still exist? Yes, of course some one could say I destroyed it because it can't be used as a building anymore. Similarly, the shards were destroyed by Odium because they can't be used as shards even though the rubble of the shards make up the Dor.  

But why is it such a big difference? There are only 4 Commands of the Cosmere why would 2 be practically the same thing: Change

Update is changing forward Delete is changing down 

If you blow up a building you technically only changed it into multiple smaller things so it would fall under Change

Also a Splintering can be Undone

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I'd say all that is probably considered Change, yeah

To quote Ruin himself,

Quote

Nothing can be destroyed, Kelsier, Ruin’s voice whispered, intruding directly into his mind. That’s something humans can’t understand. All things merely change, break down, become something new … something perfect.

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But why is it such a big difference? There are only 4 Commands of the Cosmere why would 2 be practically the same thing: Change

Update is changing forward Delete is changing down 

If you blow up a building you technically only changed it into multiple smaller things so it would fall under Change

I guess to continue my building example: Create is make a new building; Delete/Destroy is breaking one into its component atoms/molecules/investiture/etc so that it no longer functions a building; Change/Update is significantly altering the building but keeping it as a building; Read is gaining a thorough knowledge of it's blueprints. The difference between Delete/Destroy and Change/Update is the intent behind the action. One wants to make the building unusable and the other wishes to alter how it is used. 

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I'd say all that is probably considered Change, yeah

Obviously they all involve change. They're commands. If we're going to say that any command resulting in any form of change is basically just the "Change" command, then how can there can be more commands than: "Change" or "Don't Change"? 

Quote

Nothing can be destroyed, Kelsier, Ruin’s voice whispered, intruding directly into his mind. That’s something humans can’t understand. All things merely change, break down, become something new … something perfect.

That quote supports my theory, if anything. I said that Destroy/Delete involves making something unusable. That is literally what Ruin is talking about here. 

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3 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

That quote supports my theory, if anything. I said that Destroy/Delete involves making something unusable. That is literally what Ruin is talking about here. 

That quote says “Become something new” that implies usable

And if it’s usable all it is is detrimental change not delete. Everything is still there

With the laws of thermodynamics it can’t be destroyed and rendered useless so by definition delete does not destroy since there is always energy that can be used

A lot of people think Unite is a Dawnshard and that is not centered around Change but coming together 

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@Bejardin1250 I don't really follow this argument:

Quote

That quote says “Become something new” that implies usable

To me, new implies difference. Difference can mean unusable or it can mean different use. Also, when I see what Ruin was doing to Scadrial, I see him making unusable for supporting life. Previously, Preservation's use for it was to house life (specifically human life) then Ruin destroyed it by making it unusable. 

Quote

With the laws of thermodynamics it can’t be destroyed and rendered useless so by definition delete does not destroy since there is always energy that can be used

I'm not arguing Delete/Destroy would eliminate the energy/investiture/mass? I'm saying a particular arrangement of said energy/mass/investiture can't be used anymore. Hence that arrangement is destroyed even if the component parts aren't. 

As for the Unite, maybe that's the one that takes the place of "Create"? Not sure. Honestly, if "Unite" is revealed as a Dawnshard, then my theory is probably wrong. Or maybe when Brandon was coming up with the Dawnshards, he took some inspiration from CRUD and some from other places. Something like that. 

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1 minute ago, DougTheRug said:

To me, new implies difference. Difference can mean unusable or it can mean different use. Also, when I see what Ruin was doing to Scadrial, I see him making unusable for supporting life. Previously, Preservation's use for it was to house life (specifically human life) then Ruin destroyed it by making it unusable.

I just don’t like that it’s so similar to Update

If Ruin had destroyed Scadrial the remaining parts could have been used for another use

Thats very similar to adding to something, to me at least

I would think that all 4 Dawnshards do completely different things with the 16 Shards interpreting those Intents differently 

Something like: Change Survive Unite Drive. Or something, other people have much better theories than me

I don’t know if any of that makes sense

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On 15/06/2021 at 7:57 PM, Honorless said:

There should be at least one more Dawnshard on Roshar as when Honor mentioned them in the Visions, he pluralized them. Same with snippets of old in-world texts that we get in epigraphs. One mentioned that there's a Dawnshard that could "Bind all creatures, mortal or Voidish", which doesn't sound much like the Change Dawnshard. This is theorised to be the Unity Dawnshard. The Command is not canon, just speculation. People also theorize that this Unity Dawnshard might have some Connection with Dalinar.

As for the possibility of a Dawnshard on Scadrial, Preservation does mention a weapon that he buried in Secret History. "Survive" being the Dawnshard Command is also fanon, not canon.

Dawnshards are supposed to massively increase one's facility with Investiture, which is one of the reasons Nikli insisted Rysn never bond a spren.

Dalinar seems to regularly do things that the Stormfather (and others) think impossible. Sando has some plausible deniability with the Stormfather being somewhat unreliable in his knowledge, but he also surprises Rayse and Nale (and perhaps others?). Not to mention he hears the actual UNITE THEM command. Dalinar having the Unite Dawnshard makes a lot of sense, but these could also just be strong Connection to Honor.

Part of the trouble with a Unite Dawnshard is that it doesn't really fit the brief. How could you kill God with such a command? Is uniting really one of the four primal thing all things can be brought to life with? CHANGE makes a ton sense in both questions, but UNITE?

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33 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Dawnshards are supposed to massively increase one's facility with Investiture, which is one of the reasons Nikli insisted Rysn never bond a spren.

I assume this idea comes from Dawnshards being involved in the destruction of Ashyn, alongside the Surges?

33 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Dalinar seems to regularly do things that the Stormfather (and others) think impossible. Sando has some plausible deniability with the Stormfather being somewhat unreliable in his knowledge, but he also surprises Rayse and Nale (and perhaps others?). Not to mention he hears the actual UNITE THEM command. Dalinar having the Unite Dawnshard makes a lot of sense, but these could also just be strong Connection to Honor.

Part of the trouble with a Unite Dawnshard is that it doesn't really fit the brief. How could you kill God with such a command? Is uniting really one of the four primal thing all things can be brought to life with? CHANGE makes a ton sense in both questions, but UNITE?

Good question, how could Unite be used to tear someone to pieces?

Perhaps it was used by them to become Vessels for the Shards of Adonalsium instead of to tear him to pieces?

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5 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Part of the trouble with a Unite Dawnshard is that it doesn't really fit the brief. How could you kill God with such a command? Is uniting really one of the four primal thing all things can be brought to life with? CHANGE makes a ton sense in both questions, but UNITE?

It's a little weird to think a UNITE command being used to kill someone. The only thing I could think is how UNITE could be used in combat would be something similar to what Ishar did with the Windrunners. Maybe Odium united Honor to someone/something in a way that would result in Honor breaking an oath? I don't know if it's possible though. 

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On 02/07/2021 at 3:14 PM, DougTheRug said:

It's a little weird to think a UNITE command being used to kill someone. The only thing I could think is how UNITE could be used in combat would be something similar to what Ishar did with the Windrunners. Maybe Odium united Honor to someone/something in a way that would result in Honor breaking an oath? I don't know if it's possible though. 

UNITE matter with matter until you get a small (and therefore unstable) black hole

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So we know that bearing a Dawnshard apparently allows for wildly overpowered Surgebinding. "Unite" seems to fit well with Adhesion. Ishar seemed to be able to use his Bondsmith power to attempt to steal his Connection to the Stormfather. So if we imagine a wildly overpowered version of that, we land on a Surgebinder with absolute mastery over the Connections between things on all levels of reality.

So for example, such a person could change who a Shard is Connected to. Or what magics someone has access to. Or where the Realms overlap. Or who loves who. Etc.

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2 hours ago, earthexile said:

So we know that bearing a Dawnshard apparently allows for wildly overpowered Surgebinding. "Unite" seems to fit well with Adhesion. Ishar seemed to be able to use his Bondsmith power to attempt to steal his Connection to the Stormfather. So if we imagine a wildly overpowered version of that, we land on a Surgebinder with absolute mastery over the Connections between things on all levels of reality.

It's also possible Unite is just an aspect of the Dawnshard known to bind, like Remake is to Change

Quote

So for example, such a person could change who a Shard is Connected to. Or what magics someone has access to. Or where the Realms overlap. Or who loves who. Etc.

Changing the accessible magic would require modifying the Indentity, not just the Connection

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