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Thoughts about Honor's death


Kranse

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, Honor was not an isolated case. He was fourth in a sequence. Does it really make sense to look at the victim, rather than the killer?

Certainly, he isn't alone in being Splintered fully. But it's still very possible that Odium's Shard-killing strategies all fall into a similar vein of "get the Vessel to make a decision that feels aligned with their Intent at first, but ultimately contradicts it".

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8 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

But it's still very possible that Odium's Shard-killing strategies all fall into a similar vein of "get the Vessel to make a decision that feels aligned with their Intent at first, but ultimately contradicts it".

When? He killed his first three in a comparatively short time and the results are quite different.

It looks like Honor and Cultivation took a different defensive approach and it took Odium longer to overcome it. Very well, but why did he win in the first place? Devotion and Dominion versus Odium was 2:1. Why did he win? There is something fundamental we do not know.

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7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

When? He killed his first three in a comparatively short time and the results are quite different.

It looks like Honor and Cultivation took a different defensive approach and it took Odium longer to overcome it. Very well, but why did he win in the first place? Devotion and Dominion versus Odium was 2:1. Why did he win? There is something fundamental we do not know.

I remember a character (Hoid I think) saying that there already were Shards who had broken Oaths and paid the consequences, it's probably what happened with D&D and it's likely they had broken their oaths before Odium came to them

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17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It looks like Honor and Cultivation took a different defensive approach and it took Odium longer to overcome it. Very well, but why did he win in the first place? Devotion and Dominion versus Odium was 2:1. Why did he win? There is something fundamental we do not know.

I'd say a large part of it is just that the others have all been weaker than him, due to Investing. Honor and Cultivation are already Splintered partially due to the spren, and Brandon's started to hint recently that the Selish Shards being in the Cognitive may not entirely be a new thing ("new" being relative to Odium Splintering them). So for example it's possible that D&D had already (for some unknown reason) put themselves partly in the Cognitive Realm, and were unable to fight back well.

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21 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

When? He killed his first three in a comparatively short time and the results are quite different.

It looks like Honor and Cultivation took a different defensive approach and it took Odium longer to overcome it. Very well, but why did he win in the first place? Devotion and Dominion versus Odium was 2:1. Why did he win? There is something fundamental we do not know.

well Odium had at least a little help, and he specifically sought out fights he had a good matchup with

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Personal theory, Tanavast tried to re-connect the Singer's minds and failed because Odium used the opportunity to attack him.

I think that this will be a cause of great division among Odium's forces. Odium directly interfered with the Singers regaining their minds and leading to thousands of years of slavery once the how and why of Tanavast's death is revealed. I also suspect that Odium had agents who were instrumental in making them salves in the first place.

I'm probably wrong but Tanavast dying while trying to protect the people that hated him (sound familiar?) would be in theme. 

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On 17/06/2021 at 9:06 AM, MGershone said:

 

Is it possible that the broken oath isn't a sudden thing? What if the oath was some sort of complex deal or treaty? Honor begins to "break" it, little by little, and that causes him to begin unraveling. Eventually, the Recreance - the proverbial straw on the camel's back - pushes him over the edge and he is weakened enough to be killed. This is similar to what happened with Preservation, whose efforts to preserve Scadrial drove him insane and eventually killed him.

I think it's more to do with Honour technically abiding an agreement with the Singers according to their deal but not in the *spirit* of the agreement.

This also relates to the quote about caring more about oaths then the meanings behind them.

This probably would have gone against his shardic intent, much in the same way we see with Rayse at the end of RoW.

The BAM event may have been the final nail in the coffin, leading to his death at the hands of the Fused with Rayse assisting.

In the end though this did nothing for Rayse, Honour never realeased him from Roshar. This may have been calculated? If not by Honour then maybe by Cultivation. With Honour dead he could not release Rayse, trapping him permanently.

Until Dalinar came along, which as we seen was also a large part of Cultivation's plans.

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On 6/26/2021 at 4:10 AM, Oltux72 said:

When? He killed his first three in a comparatively short time and the results are quite different.

It looks like Honor and Cultivation took a different defensive approach and it took Odium longer to overcome it. Very well, but why did he win in the first place? Devotion and Dominion versus Odium was 2:1. Why did he win? There is something fundamental we do not know.

That wasn’t the only 2:1 fight he won:

Quote

“That said, the most worrying thing I discovered in this was the wound upon the Spiritual Realm where Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashed—and Ambition was destroyed.”

Excerpt From
Rhythm of War

 

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Just now, Jondesu said:

I was assuming based on the Shard’s Intent. I suppose that’s not a guarantee.

It's possible they considered getting rid of Uli Da a mercy for the rest of the Cosmere, Edgli would definitely have agreed to that reasoning. I mean, there has to be a reason why Mercy wories Sazed

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/4/2021 at 4:35 PM, Frustration said:

Which side Mercy was on is unclear.

Is it possible that Mercy would be primarily concerned with the little puny humans? A huge battle between Shards, even if it happens in the Cognitive Realm, can certainly affect humans, and it definitely does on Threnody. Mercy could be on her own side, trying to protect the people and stop the fighting - through any means necessary. Just a thought.

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I like this theory a lot and I'm thinking Kaladin's journey is mirroring how Honor got splintered in the first place (but will end differently).
It's no coincidence he's called Child Of Tanavast and as you said the Honorspren being all about protection. Syl comments more than once that Kaladin can't keep up wanting to protect everyone, it's tearing him apart. The promises he gave to two sides (which I agree with you is pretty sure what Honor did, too) and ate at his soul.
We see how often Kaladin is ready to go all in to protect and even sacrifice himself. There are some quotes in the books along the lines of "Honor loved mankind, he died defending you" and so I think in the end Tanavast was broken by all his failed promises and willingly gave his life to protect everyone.

If there was any other complicit Shard I personally only see it being Cultivation - not willing to witness Honor breaking himself apart any longer.

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